no private interpritationKinda' like when they equate the Body of Christ, His Ch

[mclees8]

There needs to be no man standing between you and your God.  Or only the God-Man, Christ Jesus, if you want to see it that way.

Honor whom you will if you feel they deserve honor -- men who labor for you in the Lord would deserve some thanks and honor and compensation, sure.  And be grateful for your fellow Christians in the trenches, your church, the Lord's Bride.

But there's you, and there's the Father/Son/Spirit.  No man can stand between you.

God has always used man to communicate with His church and even with His chosen people.  He used the prophets to get his message across, and He used the Apostles to spread His Gospel. 

Christ, the Mediator, is also the Head of the Church. If you can understand that the very nature of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ, then you can better appreciate that Jesus lives and acts in His Church through His divine Word in Scripture, the Liturgies, the Mass and Sacraments. Then we see that it is not a mere man, but Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Savior who acts through the power of the Holy Spirit. Do you not believe that God uses human beings to carry out His Will?

God uses people to communicate with us. For example, the Gospels record that Jesus sent out the twelve and others of his followers with the same power and authority that he possessed. In fact, Jesus even promised his disciples, "he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do (Jn. 14:12). As you can see, Jesus himself established certain ways or "channels" of sharing his life and power with humankind. The Apostles knew that they were not Jesus when they performed miracles (Acts 5:12-16) or when they forgave sins, but they knew that Jesus was present with them and through them when they did those things in his name.

God communicated His forgiveness and the giving of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles (Acts 8:17). The Apostles were only human channels of God's way of communicating with us. It is the same of our priests and bishops. This is what the Church still continues to do since apostolic times.

Peace be with you,
Selene

Selene i most appreciate you comments for they are true. Any apostle, bishop, or any overseer  who teaches Christ must be focused on the message of hope and salvation through Christ. Ultimately it is not the preacher, or the institution  who brings salvation but his message. God  can even use a common lay person to speak if he chooses, whether he be a catholic priest or a pastor of a church. What I often feel though, is that there is another message that comes after salvation, that is often missed.
It is the message of love not the world or the things of for if any man loves the world the love of the Father is not in Him. We must never put faith in men or the politics of this world. We must never see the church as the moral political guide post for the world.  We must never put are treasure here. but remain focused on Christ's second coming.  We must remember that as we live at peace with all men and dignataries and government. we must remember that all that , which operates in the world by humanistic efforts and the  wisdom of men is Babylon. We are not children of the world but the children of Christ whos hope is not for this present world but the one that he shall bring.

I pray you understand what I'm saying.  The vatican has lost sight. its interest are worldly. They want the UN to govern and police the world and they want to be the center of religious unity of all religions through ecumenism, and interfaith relations.  this is the peace and safety I speak of.   This is not about the salvation and hope that you and I speak of.

God bless     

[Selene]

I pray you understand what I'm saying.  The vatican has lost sight. its interest are worldly. They want the UN to govern and police the world and they want to be the center of religious unity of all religions through ecumenism, and interfaith relations.  this is the peace and safety I speak of.   This is not about the salvation and hope that you and I speak of.

God bless     

My brother, there is nothing in the Vatican's speech calling for the UN to govern and police the world.  In the first speech made by the Vatican in the UN, they called on all nations to ban human cloning and oppose terrorism.  There is also nothing mentioned in the Vatican stating that they want to be the center of religious unity.  As far as I know, the last Pope, John Paul II and the current Pope today have respected other religious groups despite that they don't agree with their beliefs. The Catechism of the Catholic Church also recognize freedom of religion.  Jesus revealed Truth to people, but He never forced anyone to follow Him, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church also teaches this.  According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 

The social duty of religion and the right to religious freedom

2104 "All men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and his Church, and to embrace it and hold on to it as they come to know it."26 This duty derives from "the very dignity of the human person."27 It does not contradict a "sincere respect" for different religions which frequently "reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men,"28 nor the requirement of charity, which urges Christians "to treat with love, prudence and patience those who are in error or ignorance with regard to the faith."29

2105 The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is "the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ."30 By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them "to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live."31 The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church.32 Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies.33

2106 "Nobody may be forced to act against his convictions, nor is anyone to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience in religious matters in private or in public, alone or in association with others, within due limits."34 This right is based on the very nature of the human person, whose dignity enables him freely to assent to the divine truth which transcends the temporal order. For this reason it "continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it."35

2107 "If because of the circumstances of a particular people special civil recognition is given to one religious community in the constitutional organization of a state, the right of all citizens and religious communities to religious freedom must be recognized and respected as well."36

[mclees8]

I have here three addresses . One From Pope Paul's new years address in 2000

Read it and sorry that it is not all there but enough is there to clearly see that he then wanted to call upon the UN to help solve the worlds problems on a global scale. Note the emphasis on a new world order to solve the problems. In order to insure peace in the world

Remember you just said to me that it was never the churches purpose to bring peace and safety but we know that in the world religion and Politics walk hand and hand for peace and safety. A moral political guide post 

Now read the encyclicals of Benedict addressing the global economy and blaming careless greed being the cause for the meltdown and that it is a global crises that needs global cooperation. A new world order.

Can you not see where this is headed. The world is ripe for global government that will ultimately call for a single leader. To insure peace safety and economic stability   

Do you not remember what you said about he church not being about peace and safety


Pope calls for new int'l order to keep peace
Reuters, Vatican City

The world needs a "new international order" to solve its conflicts and ensure peace, Pope John Paul said in his New Year's Day address yesterday.
"More than ever we need a new international order which draws on the experience and results of the United Nations," the 83-year-old pontiff said at a mass in St. Peter's Basilica.
"An order which is capable of finding adequate solutions to today's problems, based on the dignity of human beings, on integrating all society, on solidarity between rich and poor countries, on the sharing of resources and the extraordinary results of scientific and technological progress," he added.
The leader of the world's one billion Catholics, who suffers from Parkinson's disease, seemed alert and read all of his homily in a clear voice.
AP adds: Pope John Paul II rang in the New Year with a renewed call for peace in the Middle East and Africa and the creation of a new world order based on respect for the dignity of man and equality among nations.
John Paul presided over a morning Mass inside St. Peter's Basilica to mark the World Day of Peace, which the Roman Catholic Church celebrates every Jan. 1. He appeared in good form, delivering his entire homily in a strong and clear voice despite a relatively tiring holiday schedule.
This year, John Paul directed his thoughts to continuing conflicts around the globe. But he stressed that to bring about peace, there needs to be a new respect for international law and the creation of a "new international order" based on the goals of the United Nations.
He called for "an order that is able to give adequate solutions to today's problems based on the dignity of the human being, on an integral development of society, on solidarity among nations rich and poor, on the sharing of resources and the extraordinary results of scientific and technical progress."
The pope lamented continuing violence between Israel and the Palestinians, and also offered his prayers for his ambassador to Burundi, Archbishop Michael Courtney, who was gunned down by assailants this week as he returned from a funeral.
John Paul said Courtney was killed "while he carried out his mission in favor of dialogue and reconciliation" in the central African country, which has been wracked by violence for a decade.
"Let us pray for him, hoping that his example and sacrifice will bring about the fruits of peace in Burundi and the world," he said.
Earlier this month, John Paul issued a formal document mark the World Day of Peace in which he called for a reform of the United Nations and international law to deal with the evolving threat of terrorism.
He said a new respect for international law was the only way to achieve peace and guarantee against the arbitrary use of force. He didn't not mention the United States by name, but his message appeared aimed at the US anti-terrorism campaign and in particular at Washington's pre-emptive war in Iraq, which was launched without the specific authorization of the United Nations.
John Paul was a vocal critic of the Iraq war, dispatching envoys to Washington and Baghdad to try to prevent hostilities from breaking out and exhorting world leaders that war wasn't inevitable and was "always a defeat for humanity."
"Because peace is possible ... it is necessary," he said during his homily Thursday.
The New Year's Mass was the last major celebration of the Christmas season for John Paul, who is 83 and suffers from Parkinson's disease, which makes it difficult for him to speak, as well as knee and hip ailments that make it almost impossible for him to walk or stand.
He cut back some of his holiday activities and scrapped two traditional papal events the ordination of bishops Jan. 6 and baptisms on Jan. 11.
But throughout the Christmas season, he has appeared far stronger than during the series of celebrations in October marking his 25th anniversary as pope. Then, he was unable to deliver many of his homilies and had to have others to read them on his behalf.

Pope Benedict
VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Benedict XVI called Tuesday for a new world financial order guided by ethics, dignity and the search for the common good in the third encyclical of his pontificate.
In "Charity in Truth," Benedict denounced the profit-at-all-cost mentality of the globalized economy and lamented that greed had brought about the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.
"Profit is useful if it serves as a means toward an end," he wrote. "Once profit becomes the exclusive goal, if it is produced by improper means and without the common good as its ultimate end, it risks destroying wealth and creating poverty."
The document, in the works for two years and repeatedly delayed to incorporate the fallout from the crisis, was released one day before leaders of the Group of Eight industrialized nations meet to coordinate efforts to deal with the global meltdown.
The release was clearly designed to give world leaders a strong moral imperative to correct errors of the past, "which wreaked such havoc on the real economy," and make a more socially just and responsible world financial order.
"The economy needs ethics in order to function correctly — not any ethics, but an ethics which is people centered," he wrote.
The German-born Benedict, 82, has spoken out frequently about the impact of the crisis on the poor, particularly in Africa which he visited earlier this year. But the 144-page encyclical, one of the most authoritative documents a pope can issue, marked a new level of church teaching by linking the Vatican's long-standing doctrine on caring for the poor with current events.
While acknowledging that the globalized economy has "lifted billions of people out of misery," Benedict accused the unbridled growth of recent years of causing unprecedented problems as well, citing mass migration flows, environmental degradation and a complete loss of trust in the world market.
He urged wealthier countries to increase development aid to poor countries to help eliminate world hunger, saying peace and security depended on it. He specified that aid should go to agricultural development to improve infrastructure, irrigation systems, transport and sharing of agricultural technology.


The popes want a global order to solve the problems of the world. This will ultimately end in the antichrist government

with repect for other religions I will post again I,m short of time

god bless

[Selene]

Mclees, first of all, the article you printed on Pope John Paul II doesn't even have a date on it.  But because it mentioned the war in Iraq, I assumed it must be the Pope's speech on January 2004, since the US went to war against Iraq in 2003.  Below is the entire speech of the Pope.  No where did it specifically say that the UN should be established as THE world government.  In his speech, the Pope is calling on the UN to reform itself so that it could function more effectively as it should.  You need to read the Pope's entire speech and not just parts of it in order to understand what he is saying.

As a matter of fact, at the begining of his speech, he addressed it to all the leaders of the nations, saying that they have a duty to promote peace.  He never implied that only one leader and one nation has a duty to promote peace. 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/peace/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_20031216_xxxvii-world-day-for-peace_en.html

As for the second article you posted on Pope Benedict XVI, I also provided a weblink of the Pope's encyclical letter CARITAS IN VERITATE  which means "Love in Truth" or "Charity in Truth."  The letter is a long one, but there is nothing in it that says anything about establishing ONE world financial center.  However, it does call on all political governments to create an economic plan that would benefit everyone and not just the rich.  You need to read the entire letter to understand what he is saying.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html 

Both Popes have never said that ONE world government or ONE world financial center should be established.  However, it does suggest other government authorities to create a more just and economic plan or model to help the impoverished and to promote human dignity and equality, which is in line with the church's teachings.  Whether other world governments will listen to the Pope's message or not is up to them.  God's Church has always taught morality.  So, why should it bother you that the Pope also teaches morality?  Afterall, the Catholic Church has always strongly opposed abortion - a law passed by government leaders.  Most people don't have a problem with the Catholic Church speaking against abortion, so why is it a problem when the Pope speaks against war, terrorism, and economic greed. The Pope speaks about politics and economics in regards to moral issues.  The Apostles have always spoken on moral issues such as stealing, adultery, greed, lust, etc.  Is that any different than the Pope who also speaks on moral issues?

[mclees8]

Mclees, first of all, the article you printed on Pope John Paul II doesn't even have a date on it.  But because it mentioned the war in Iraq, I assumed it must be the Pope's speech on January 2004, since the US went to war against Iraq in 2003.  Below is the entire speech of the Pope.  No where did it specifically say that the UN should be established as THE world government.  In his speech, the Pope is calling on the UN to reform itself so that it could function more effectively as it should.  You need to read the Pope's entire speech and not just parts of it in order to understand what he is saying.

As a matter of fact, at the begining of his speech, he addressed it to all the leaders of the nations, saying that they have a duty to promote peace.  He never implied that only one leader and one nation has a duty to promote peace

Mike
When did I say he implied that one nation was to promote peace? There are to many leaders for that. The day of a one world government is yet to come but they are working at it and have been for some time . The papacy will show its true ambition and desire for world government and religious peace. It is already obvious for many of us.   

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/peace/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_20031216_xxxvii-world-day-for-peace_en.html
Mike
Selene, I'm sorry about the date. It was lost somehow a while back when I transferred this from documents in my other Computer. The address is Pope Pauls new years address in 2000. There was no Iraq war then, so I don't know where you came up with that.  It would be difficult to trace  it back that far but I assure you it was valid. I have discussed this in another Protestant  Catholic chat room some time back. It came to me from another source by E-mail but it was authenticated then.

So who is the UN and the worlds leaders to the church that he appeals to them? Does he think that somehow they can reform and become godly and moral or even become believers in Christ  for the sake of unity and world peace?  Please remember what you said to me that the church was never about peace and safety in the world. A world that for the most part is antichrist. Is it the purpose  of Christ church to make the world more godly or is it about salvation and separation from the world ?


As for pope  Benedict's appeal for the world to fix the world s economy and markets I say the same thing. The church is not about appealing to the world to fix the world. There will be the Good times and the bad times. There will be good governments and bad governments until Jesus comes. Our hope is not  in the world or that we can achieve Heaven on earth. The word says that the world is not our hope or our home.  Jesus said I am not of this world and neither is his church.  The world is Babylon and all that is Babylon will come to judgment. Tell me where will Christ bride be when the day of the Lord comes 

God bless

[Selene]

Mike
When did I say he implied that one nation was to promote peace? There are to many leaders for that. The day of a one world government is yet to come but they are working at it and have been for some time . The papacy will show its true ambition and desire for world government and religious peace. It is already obvious for many of us.   

What ambition is that?  So far, all the Pope spoke about was in opposition to terrorism, greed, and war.  Are you saying that he is wrong to speak against these things? 

Mike
Selene, I’m sorry about the date. It was lost somehow a while back when I transferred this from documents in my other Computer. The address is Pope Pauls new years address in 2000. There was no Iraq war then, so I don’t know where you came up with that.  It would be difficult to trace  it back that far but I assure you it was valid. I have discussed this in another Protestant  Catholic chat room some time back. It came to me from another source by E-mail but it was authenticated then.

Actually,it was the Pope's speech in 2004 because the article you posted mentioned the pre-emptive strive in Iraq.  Below is the quote from your article: 

He didn't not mention the United States by name, but his message appeared aimed at the US anti-terrorism campaign and in particular at Washington's pre-emptive war in Iraq, which was launched without the specific authorization of the United Nations.

As for pope  Benedict’s appeal for the world to fix the world s economy and markets I say the same thing. The church is not about appealing to the world to fix the world. There will be the Good times and the bad times. There will be good governments and bad governments until Jesus comes. Our hope is not  in the world or that we can achieve Heaven on earth. The word says that the world is not our hope or our home.  Jesus said I am not of this world and neither is his church.  The world is Babylon and all that is Babylon will come to judgment. Tell me where will Christ bride be when the day of the Lord comes 

My brother, the Pope was calling on the world's government to help those who are in poverty and he stands against greed.  You are correct that the Church cannot fix the world, and it doesn't intend to, but the moral thing to do is to stand against injustice when they see it.  Surely, you don't think that the Pope should just remain silent on such issues?  While we wait for Christ to come to bring peace, the Church will continue to teach morality.  Below is what the Pope said in his letter: 

67. In the face of the unrelenting growth of global interdependence, there is a strongly felt need, even in the midst of a global recession, for a reform of the United Nations Organization, and likewise of economic institutions and international finance, so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth. One also senses the urgent need to find innovative ways of implementing the principle of the responsibility to protect[146] and of giving poorer nations an effective voice in shared decision-making. This seems necessary in order to arrive at a political, juridical and economic order which can increase and give direction to international cooperation for the development of all peoples in solidarity.  

As you can see, the Pope calls for a reform of the United Nations and a reform for economic institutions and international finance.  He says that poorer nations should be protected and be given a voice in the decision making process.  Now whether other governments will listen to this calling or not is up to them.  The Pope then concludes his speech in this fashion? 

78. Without God man neither knows which way to go, nor even understands who he is. In the face of the enormous problems surrounding the development of peoples, which almost make us yield to discouragement, we find solace in the sayings of our Lord Jesus Christ, who teaches us: “Apart from me you can do nothing” (Jn 15:5) and then encourages us: “I am with you always, to the close of the age” (Mt 28:20)..........God's love calls us to move beyond the limited and the ephemeral, it gives us the courage to continue seeking and working for the benefit of all, even if this cannot be achieved immediately and if what we are able to achieve, alongside political authorities and those working in the field of economics, is always less than we might wish[158]. God gives us the strength to fight and to suffer for love of the common good, because he is our All, our greatest hope...........At the conclusion of the Pauline Year, I gladly express this hope in the Apostle's own words, taken from the Letter to the Romans: “Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good; love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honour” (Rom 12:9-10).

[mclees8]

Mike
When did I say he implied that one nation was to promote peace? There are to many leaders for that. The day of a one world government is yet to come but they are working at it and have been for some time . The papacy will show its true ambition and desire for world government and religious peace. It is already obvious for many of us.   
[/quote] 

Selene
What ambition is that?  So far, all the Pope spoke about was in opposition to terrorism, greed, and war.  Are you saying that he is wrong to speak against these things? 

Mike> Yes Selene he is speaking out against these things. The message is clear that he see's the church as the moral political guide post for the world and its leaders. He desires a new world order. Do you know what the new world order is? It is an attempt at universal law but universal law can not be achieved as the world is now with so many nations and leaders who cannot agree on anything. Just like a country needs a king so will the world need a king or a chancellor to achieve the things that the pope appeals for. World government that is under a single leader. There are 2 things that walk hand in and in this world. politics and religion. They both work together for what ever peace we may have, or achieve, but different religions are at odds with each other. Radical Islam hates the Christian west and the Jews.  Many  war's are centered in this. There is political turmoil suspicion, and lust for domination amongst nations.   Let me quote George bush senior while he was still president. On Feb 18 1991 State of the union " It is a big idea: a new world order, where diverse nations are drawn together in common cause to achieve universal aspirations of man kind , peace and security, freedom and rule of law ....only the United states has both the moral standard and the means to back it up.       

A New world order? Where have we heard that before? What well known religious political figure said that.   They don't say the phrase " A new world order

[Selene]

Mike, the Pope has a right to express what the Church teaches.  And that is all he is doing.  It's also called "Freedom of Expression."  There is nothing wrong to speak out against terrorism, greed, and war.  As a matter of fact, he is not the only one speaking out about these things.  There are many Christians who speak out against terrorism, the 9-11 attacks, the pre-emptive strike in Iraq, etc.  Does this make these people ambitious?  Of course not.  As a matter of fact, even you can speak out against terrorism......unless, of course, you believe that terrorism is good?   

The Catholic Church can speak out.  It's called Freedom of Expression.  Surely, you do believe in Freedom of Expression, do you not?  And the Catholic Church cannot force any nation to follow what it says.  Afterall, the United States is still the most powerful nation in the world.   

[Selene]

Below is what the former pope John Paul II said in his world peace speech: 

The various colours of the prism of peace have now been amply illustrated. What remains now is to work to ensure that the ideal of a peaceful coexistence, with its specific requirements, will become part of the consciousness of individuals and peoples. We Christians see the commitment to educate ourselves and others to peace as something at the very heart of our religion. For Christians, in fact, to proclaim peace is to announce Christ who is "our peace

[mclees8]

As for pope  Benedict's appeal for the world to fix the world s economy and markets I say the same thing. The church is not about appealing to the world to fix the world. There will be the Good times and the bad times. There will be good governments and bad governments until Jesus comes. Our hope is not  in the world or that we can achieve Heaven on earth. The word says that the world is not our hope or our home.  Jesus said I am not of this world and neither is his church.  The world is Babylon and all that is Babylon will come to judgment. Tell me where will Christ bride be when the day of the Lord comes 

Selene
My brother, the Pope was calling on the world's government to help those who are in poverty and he stands against greed.  You are correct that the Church cannot fix the world, and it doesn't intend to, but the moral thing to do is to stand against injustice when they see it.  Surely, you don't think that the Pope should just remain silent on such issues?  While we wait for Christ to come to bring peace, the Church will continue to teach morality.  Below is what the Pope said in his letter: 

67. In the face of the unrelenting growth of global interdependence, there is a strongly felt need, even in the midst of a global recession, for a reform of the United Nations Organization, and likewise of economic institutions and international finance, so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth. One also senses the urgent need to find innovative ways of implementing the principle of the responsibility to protect[146] and of giving poorer nations an effective voice in shared decision-making. This seems necessary in order to arrive at a political, juridical and economic order which can increase and give direction to international cooperation for the development of all peoples in solidarity.  


Mike
Yes, as one who sits in his position of a visible religious authority, he must speak out against immorality, injustice, poverty and greed. Yes it is his position to address it even though many of these things will go ignored. One thing is so sad but when one sits in a position of leadership on a world scale: one which also from the human perspective sees human suffering,  genocide and starvation like in Africa we are appalled. We want  the leaders of the affluent and powerful nations to do something and the leaders would agree yes something must be done, but they know  nothing will be done nor is there any intent. You see as leaders of the world they know there is a delicate balance in maters of population verses the  worlds ability to feed and care for it. So much will be so much talk and little or nothing done. Yet the affluent nations still prosper. While the poor nations suffer. This is a sad fact of life in this present world. Some will always be considered as expendable.
Again he calls on international cooperation from the leaders of the world  to solve the problems of the world but world Government and a world leader is needed. Yes a New world order under the control of one.  Yes it is coming and it may be one of human necessity. So much power for any one man. Yet it says that Satan will give him his power and  seat. Peace for a short season and then great war. 



Selene
As you can see, the Pope calls for a reform of the United Nations and a reform for economic institutions and international finance.  He says that poorer nations should be protected and be given a voice in the decision making process.  Now whether other governments will listen to this calling or not is up to them.  The Pope then concludes his speech in this fashion? 

78. Without God man neither knows which way to go, nor even understands who he is. In the face of the enormous problems surrounding the development of peoples, which almost make us yield to discouragement, we find solace in the sayings of our Lord Jesus Christ, who teaches us: "Apart from me you can do nothing

[Amo]

WWRN

Europe - Vatican - Christianity - Catholic

"Pope proposes new financial order guided by ethics"

By Nicole Winfield (AP, July 7, 2009)

Vatican City - Pope Benedict XVI called Tuesday for a new world financial order guided by ethics and the search for the common good, denouncing the profit-at-all-cost mentality blamed for bringing about the global financial meltdown.

In the third encyclical of his pontificate, Benedict pressed for reform of the United Nations and international economic and financial institutions to give poorer countries more of a say in international policy.

"There is urgent need (for) a true world political authority" that can manage the global economy, guarantee the environment is protected, ensure world peace and bring about food security for the poor, he wrote.

The document "Charity in Truth," was in the works for two years, and its publication was repeatedly delayed to incorporate the fallout from the crisis. It was released a day before leaders of the Group of Eight industrialized nations meet to coordinate efforts to deal with the global meltdown, signaling a clear Vatican bid to prod leaders for a financially responsible future and what it considers a more socially just society.

"The economy needs ethics in order to function correctly - not any ethics, but an ethics which is people centered," Benedict wrote.

The German-born Benedict, 82, has spoken out frequently about the impact of the crisis on the poor, particularly in Africa, which he visited earlier this year. But the 144-page encyclical, one of the most authoritative documents a pope can issue, marked a new level of church teaching by linking the Vatican's long-standing social doctrine on caring for the poor with current events.

While acknowledging that the globalized economy has "lifted billions of people out of misery," Benedict accused the unbridled growth of recent years of causing unprecedented problems as well, citing mass migration flows, environmental degradation and a complete loss of trust in the world market.

He urged wealthier countries to increase development aid to poor countries to help eliminate world hunger, saying peace and security depended on it. He specified that aid should go to agricultural development to improve infrastructure, irrigation systems, transport and sharing of agricultural technology.

At the same time, he demanded that industrialized nations reduce their energy consumption, both to better care for the environment and to let the poorer have access to energy resources.

"One of the greatest challenges facing the economy is to achieve the most efficient use - not abuse - of natural resources, based on a realization that the notion of 'efficiency' is not value-free," he wrote.

Benedict said that the drive to outsource work to the cheapest bidder had endangered the rights of workers, and he demanded that workers be allowed to organize in unions to protect their rights and guarantee steady, decent employment.

Benedict called for a whole new financial order - "a profoundly new way of understanding business enterprise" - that respects the dignity of workers and looks out for the common good by prioritizing ethics and social responsibility over dividend returns.

The Rev. Drew Christiansen, editor of the Jesuit monthly America and a leading social ethicist, said he was most intrigued by the pope's call for a new sector of society to work alongside government, market and civil society: for-profit entities that work for the common good, which Christiansen suggested could include "fair trade" product makers and micro-finance institutions.

"I am not sure these enterprises yet constitute a sector of economic life," Christiansen wrote on his blog. "But they are harbingers of a different, conscientious kind of economics that would not repeat the mistakes of the last 30 years."

Kirk Hanson, a business ethics professor at Santa Clara University, said that while the encyclical went into some detail about the rights of workers and the duties of the state in protecting those rights, there was precious little about how an actual CEO leader should go about business.

"It's almost as if the church has so little trust in business leaders that it speaks to the political leaders urging regulation and the consumers urging voting with their buying power," said Hanson, who chaired hearings leading up to a similar U.S. Catholic bishops' statement on capitalism and social justice in the 1980s.

Benedict has written two previous encyclicals in his four years as pope: "God is Love" in 2006 and "Saved by Hope" in 2007.

The pope's focus on world finance raised questions about the state of the Vatican's own books.

The Vatican was implicated in the 1980s collapse of Banco Ambrosiano, in which the Vatican's bank was the major shareholder, and it agreed to pay $250 million to Ambrosiano's creditors, while denying any wrongdoing.

At the start of the meltdown in October, a top Vatican bank official assured that its deposits were safe and had no liquidity problems, saying the bank had stayed away from derivatives, the financial instruments blamed in part for the crisis.

Other officials have said 80 percent of the Vatican's investments are in low-yield government bonds and 20 percent in stocks and that the Vatican does not invest in companies that produce arms or contraceptives.

The Vatican in its annual financial statement issued Saturday said it ran a deficit in 2008 for the second straight year, posting a euro900,000 ($1.28 million) loss, compared with a loss of euro9.06 million a year earlier.

Disclaimer: WWRN does not endorse or adhere to views or opinions expressed in the articles posted. This is purely an information site, to inform interested parties of religious trends.

[Selene]

Mike
I have great respect for what is says recognizing that we are helpless with out Christ. Yes Christ is our only Hope. Not in a new world order or international cooperation that the world could ever fix itself or eliminate human suffering yet we must have compassion and do all that we can do with his strength. Jesus is the only one who can fix it and the only one worthy to do it. 

Even still as the pope has said these things something is wrong for the leaders of this world will never see this and what has his call done. The world is ripe for a world leader. One that will promise he can fix it. This is what the world wants: peace, safety and economic posterity and the one man they think can bring it . One who stands with religious cooperation and morality.  Will the church applaud this when it comes. Will they be there to help him get his seat. When he brings peace to the Middle East.

As I have said before the world is racing toward antichrist. 

And you think that this world leader would be Vatican City?     That's funny!   You are correct that the world wants peace and stability, but who do you think they look for in that peace and stability?  Certainly not Vatican City.  The world looks to the United States to bring that peace and stability.  Haven't you notice that whenever something goes wrong, who does the UN call in to lead in solving the problem?  Certainly not Vatican City.  The world is more worried about the United States being the world leader.  In some political forum boards I've been in, it has even been suggested that the world be the ones to elect the US President and not just the Americans.  Some people today want the US under control as they seem to be the most powerful nation in the world.  It is the Pope who is telling the worold that peace is possible through God, but the world is the one looking to the United States to bring them that peace.  And you wonder why the Pope is speaking out?   

[mclees8]

Mike
I have great respect for what is says recognizing that we are helpless with out Christ. Yes Christ is our only Hope. Not in a new world order or international cooperation that the world could ever fix itself or eliminate human suffering yet we must have compassion and do all that we can do with his strength. Jesus is the only one who can fix it and the only one worthy to do it. 

Even still as the pope has said these things something is wrong for the leaders of this world will never see this and what has his call done. The world is ripe for a world leader. One that will promise he can fix it. This is what the world wants: peace, safety and economic posterity and the one man they think can bring it . One who stands with religious cooperation and morality.  Will the church applaud this when it comes. Will they be there to help him get his seat. When he brings peace to the Middle East. 




And you think that this world leader would be Vatican City?     That's funny!   You are correct that the world wants peace and stability, but who do you think they look for in that peace and stability?  Certainly not Vatican City.  The world looks to the United States to bring that peace and stability.  Haven't you notice that whenever something goes wrong, who does the UN call in to lead in solving the problem?  Certainly not Vatican City.  The world is more worried about the United States being the world leader.  In some political forum boards I've been in, it has even been suggested that the world be the ones to elect the US President and not just the Americans.  Some people today want the US under control as they seem to be the most powerful nation in the world.  It is the Pope who is telling the worold that peace is possible through God, but the world is the one looking to the United States to bring them that peace.  And you wonder why the Pope is speaking out?   

I never said the world was looking to the Vatican as its world leader

[mclees8]

Mike
I have great respect for what is says recognizing that we are helpless with out Christ. Yes Christ is our only Hope. Not in a new world order or international cooperation that the world could ever fix itself or eliminate human suffering yet we must have compassion and do all that we can do with his strength. Jesus is the only one who can fix it and the only one worthy to do it. 

Even still as the pope has said these things something is wrong for the leaders of this world will never see this and what has his call done. The world is ripe for a world leader. One that will promise he can fix it. This is what the world wants: peace, safety and economic posterity and the one man they think can bring it . One who stands with religious cooperation and morality.  Will the church applaud this when it comes. Will they be there to help him get his seat. When he brings peace to the Middle East. 




And you think that this world leader would be Vatican City?     That's funny!   You are correct that the world wants peace and stability, but who do you think they look for in that peace and stability?  Certainly not Vatican City.  The world looks to the United States to bring that peace and stability.  Haven't you notice that whenever something goes wrong, who does the UN call in to lead in solving the problem?  Certainly not Vatican City.  The world is more worried about the United States being the world leader.  In some political forum boards I've been in, it has even been suggested that the world be the ones to elect the US President and not just the Americans.  Some people today want the US under control as they seem to be the most powerful nation in the world.  It is the Pope who is telling the worold that peace is possible through God, but the world is the one looking to the United States to bring them that peace.  And you wonder why the Pope is speaking out?   

I never said the world was looking to the Vatican as its world leader

You only address what you see as being right and ignore or give any thought to all that I have said about Babylon and where the world is headed. and how the Vatican is playing role in all this. Of course this happens all the time when one just wants to see what they want to see. I am going to post a conclusion, It would e nice  if you would read more closely all the things presented. What do you thik it means to call for a New world order?
God bless

[Selene]

Okay.  So if you don't see Vatican City as the world leader, then why do you seem so worried about "world leadership?"  Afterall, isn't the United States already considered a world leader?  As for Babylon, what St. John predicted about the wh*re of Babylon already happened.  That is already in the past.  So, what is the problem? 

[Amo]

Okay.  So if you don't see Vatican City as the world leader, then why do you seem so worried about "world leadership?"  Afterall, isn't the United States already considered a world leader?  As for Babylon, what St. John predicted about the wh*re of Babylon already happened.  That is already in the past.  So, what is the problem?

It could not have already happened, the details of the prophecy encompass all the nations of this world. 

[Selene]

It could not have already happened, the details of the prophecy encompass all the nations of this world. 

Of course, it already happened. This is how we know that the prophecies written by St. John will come true because already one of those prophecies came true.  Didn't you know that when St. John wrote Revelation, the Roman Empire was still standing?  It didn't fall until AFTER the death of St. John.  So, how did St. John knew that the Roman Empire (Babylon) was going to fall?  It was a prophecy that already came true. 

The woman in Revelations who drank the blood of the saints and the martyrs of Jesus in Rev. 17:6 was the Roman Empire with Nero as ruler and who executed the Apostles Paul and Peter as well as many Christians in the arenas.  The sixth king of Babylon that will fall in Rev. 17:10 was interpreted to be Nero.  The Bible says that the seventh king will rule for only a short time.  After Nero, the Roman emperor was Galba, who ruled only for 7 months (a very short time).  Galba was assasinated and another took his place.  The ten horns in Rev. 17:12 were the satellite nations of the Roman Empire.  Vatican City, on the other hand, does not have any satellite nations, and the seventh Pope Sixtus I was Pope for 10 years, which was a lot longer than the 7th emperor of the Roman Empire.  So, who did you think the seventh king was that ruled for only a short time?  Chapter 17 in Revelations was a prophecy that was already fulfilled, and this was a prophecy that St. John predicted because the Roman Empire did not fall yet when he wrote Revelations.  Long after St. John died, the prohecy was fulfiilled.  The rest of the other prophecies that St. John wrote will also come to pass in time.

[Amo]

Of course, it already happened. This is how we know that the prophecies written by St. John will come true because already one of those prophecies came true.  Didn't you know that when St. John wrote Revelation, the Roman Empire was still standing?  It didn't fall until AFTER the death of St. John.  So, how did St. John knew that the Roman Empire (Babylon) was going to fall?  It was a prophecy that already came true.

The woman in Revelations who drank the blood of the saints and the martyrs of Jesus in Rev. 17:6 was the Roman Empire with Nero as ruler and who executed the Apostles Paul and Peter as well as many Christians in the arenas.  The sixth king of Babylon that will fall in Rev. 17:10 was interpreted to be Nero.  The Bible says that the seventh king will rule for only a short time.  After Nero, the Roman emperor was Galba, who ruled only for 7 months (a very short time).  Galba was assasinated and another took his place.  The ten horns in Rev. 17:12 were the satellite nations of the Roman Empire.  Vatican City, on the other hand, does not have any satellite nations, and the seventh Pope Sixtus I was Pope for 10 years, which was a lot longer than the 7th emperor of the Roman Empire.  So, who did you think the seventh king was that ruled for only a short time?  Chapter 17 in Revelations was a prophecy that was already fulfilled, and this was a prophecy that St. John predicted because the Roman Empire did not fall yet when he wrote Revelations.  Long after St. John died, the prohecy was fulfiilled.  The rest of the other prophecies that St. John wrote will also come to pass in time.

The above comes to us through Preterism.  It still does not address the issue of the global nature of the prophecies relating to BABYLON.

II. Two Conflicting Alternatives Brought Forth

Rome's answer to the Protestant Reformation was twofold, though actually conflicting and contradictory.  Through the Jesuits Ribera, of Salamanca, Spain, and Bellarmine, of Rome, the Papacy put forth her Futurist interpretation.  And through Alcazar, Spanish Jesuit of Seville, she advanced almost simultaneously the conflicting Preterist interpretation.  These were designed to meet and overwhelm the Historical interpretation of the Protestants.  Though mutually exclusive, either Jesuit alternative suited the great objective equally well, as both thrust aside the application of the prophecies from the existing Church of Rome.  The one accomplished it by making prophecy stop altogether short of papal Rome's career.  The other achieved it by making it overlap the immense era of papal dominance, crowding Antichrist into a small fragment of time in the still distant future, just before the great consummation.  It is consequently often called the gap theory.

According to the Protestants, the vision of Babylon and the supporting Beast is divinely interpreted in chapter 17 of the Apocalypse.  It was on this that the Reformers commonly rested their case - the apostate woman, the Roman church: the city, seven hilled Rome; the many waters, the many peoples; the Beast, the fourth, or Roman, beast of Daniel: the sixth head, the Caesars; and the seventh, the popes.  Concerning the two alternatives, presented by Ribera and Alcazar, consigning Antichrist either to the remote past or future, Joseph Tanner, the Protestant writer, gives this record:

"Accordingly, towards the close of the century of the Reformation, two of her most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavouring by different means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men's minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the Papal system.  The Jesuit Alcazar devoted himself to bring into prominence the Preterist method of interpretation, which we have already briefly noticed, and thus endeavoured to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the Popes ever ruled at Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy.  On the other hand the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the Papal power by bringing out the futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly not to the career of the Papacy, but to that of some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and to continue in power for three and a half years.  Thus, as Alford says, the Jesuit Riberas, about A.D. 1580, may be regarded as the Founder of the Futurist system in modern times.

[Selene]

Amos, what you say doesn't even make any sense.  As I said, Chapter 17 in Revelations was already fulfilled. 

[Amo]

Amos, what you say doesn't even make any sense.  As I said, Chapter 17 in Revelations was already fulfilled.

Apparently we are not connecting.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great wh*re that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the wh*re sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

[Selene]

Amos, have you ever looked at the map of the Roman empire?  Ask yourself why they call it an "empire."  Look at the map, and count how many countries are there in the Roman empire.  Below is a definition of the word "empire" taken from the dictionary: 

Empire:  a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire.

[Amo]

Amos, have you ever looked at the map of the Roman empire?  Ask yourself why they call it an "empire."  Look at the map, and count how many countries are there in the Roman empire.  Below is a definition of the word "empire" taken from the dictionary:

Empire:  a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

[mclees8]

Here is a full REV 17 commentary. You connect the dots. I thought it might be helpfull .

17:1. John the apostle/prophet is invited by one of the seven angels, which had the seven vials (bowl judgments), to witness the judgment of (1) the great whore and (2) her position (that sitteth upon many waters). The reader is not left to his own resources in the interpretation of this important chapter, but he must scrutinize every clue given. Harlotry is amply explained in passages of the Old and New Testaments (cf. Ezk 16:15; Hos 1–3; Jas 4:4; II Pet 2:14). Both adultery and harlotry are sins of physical immorality which are made to represent spiritual defection and apostasy. Wherein her harlotry consists is explained in verses 4–6 of this chapter and in 18:3–5, among other passages. The many waters upon which she sits are interpreted explicitly (stated in vs. 15) as peoples and nations.
2.  Her sin. 17:2.
2. Her dominant position over the nations could be political or spiritual. Those interpreters who believe the domination is political identify the harlot as the Roman Empire. Those expositors who consider the rule and subjugation are spiritual/religious, among whom the present writer is one, identify her as a corrupted papal Rome, with the inclusion under her hegemony of all systems and sects which are basically anti-Christian, not excluding apostate Christendom. So grievous were her acts of immorality (mentioned twice in this verse) that the results are likened to a drunken stupor.
3.  Her seat on the scarlet beast. 17:3.
3. In verse 1 the position of the harlot was described in its wide scope, all nations and peoples; here she is seen sitting (dominating and domineering) upon a scarlet-colored beast. Is the harlot the same person as this woman? Context and logic demand an affirmative reply. The meaning of her riding the scarlet beast, replete with names of blasphemy, and having seven heads and ten horns, is that the religious system is controlling and subjugating the political power (cf. 13:1 for the connection with the beast from the sea). In short, at Rome the political power is under the absolute sway of the religious system. This was revealed supernaturally to John by the inditing Spirit. The scarlet color indicates the glory and splendor of the political power, but it cannot hinder the suppressive control of the religious leaders.
4.  Her clothing. 17:4.
4. Some six elements are introduced to demonstrate the wealth, luxury, and extravagance of the harlot. But all is utilized toward the one end—her uncleanness and immorality (cf. 18:19for a picture of extensive wealth). The golden cup here is related to the enticements spoken of in verse 2.
5.  Her name. 17:5.
5. There is no mistaking her identity, for her name is written upon her forehead. Roman harlots in their brazenness wore a label with their names on their foreheads (cf. R. H. Charles. op. cit., II, p. 65). The name contains a mystery, a disclosed secret for this time. Her widespread influence is underscored by the repeated references to her greatness. She is the source of godlessness and idolatrous practices throughout the world (cf. for a lengthy sketch, H. A. Ironside, op. cit., pp. 285–302). In the Greek text of the United Bible Societies her name is in normal lower case except for the B in "Babylon

[Selene]

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Amos, we already know that the Book of Revelations is full of symbolism.  Why you are taking it so literally is beyond me.   

[Selene]

9. It is immediately stated that it takes God's wisdom to understand the disclosure. The seven mountains (or hills) are proof that mystical Babylon cannot be ancient, literal Babylon, which was situated in a plain and not on mountains. However, it is known that Rome is built on seven hills (e.g., the Quirinal, Capitoline, Palatine); classical writers familiarly spoke of "the city of seven hills

[Selene]

I needed to add one more thing.  There is no more "future" fall of Babylon because Babylon already fell a long time ago.  However, the Devil still exist.  In the past, the Devil used Nero, and he can still use another person even in our time today.  Did any of you think that perhaps, the next person the Devil is using may be Osama Bin Laden?  What is the goal of Osama Bin Laden?  Don't you think you should worry more about Osama Bin Laden rather than the Pope?  Here is Osama Bin Laden's letter to the Americans, and he listed down 7 things he wanted from the Americans.  Imagine that!  He demands 7 things from America.  Notice the NUMBER 7     So, forget about the 7 hills of Rome and let's look at Osama Bin Laden's 7 demands.  I provided the website below so you can read the entire letter.  The seven things Osama Bin Laden wants from America is:

1.  THE FIRST THING THAT WE ARE CALLING YOU TO IS ISLAM.

2,  The second thing we call you to, is to STOP YOUR OPPRESSION, LIES, IMMORALITY AND DEBAUCHERY that has spread among you.

3.  WHAT WE CALL YOU TO THIRDLY IS TO TAKE AN HONEST STANCE WITH YOURSELVES --- AND I DOUBT YOU WILL DO SO --- TO DISCOVER THAT YOU ARE A NATION WITHOUT PRINCIPLES OR MANNERS, AND THAT THE VALUES AND PRINCIPLES TO YOU ARE SOMETHING WHICH YOU MERELY DEMAND FROM OTHERS, NOT THAT WHICH YOU YOURSELF MUST ADHERE TO.

4, WE ALSO ADVISE YOU TO STOP SUPPORTING ISRAEL, AND TO END YOUR SUPPORT OF THE INDIANS IN KASHMIR, THE RUSSIANS AGAINST THE CHECHENS AND TO ALSO CEASE SUPPORTING THE MANILA GOVERNMENT AGAINST THE MUSLIMS IN SOUTHERN PHILIPPINES.

5. We also advise you to PACK YOUR LUGGAGE AND GET OUT OF OUR LANDS

6. Sixthly, we call upon you to END YOUR SUPPORT OF THE CORRUPT LEADERS IN OUR COUNTRIES

7. We also call you to DEAL WITH US AND INTERACT WITH US ON THE BASIS OF MUTUAL INTERESTS AND BENEFITS, rather than the policies of subjugation, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.


http://www.thepanamanews.com/pn/v_08/issue_23/opinion_02.html

[Amo]

Amos, we already know that the Book of Revelations is full of symbolism.  Why you are taking it so literally is beyond me.

Selime, how is it taking things to literal to think that all nations means all nations, but not taking things to literal to think that all nations means the Roman empire?  A symbol is supposed to represent more, not less than it seems to be saying.  Just because there is much symbolism in Revelation, does not mean that every single word or thought expressed is symbolic.  This is a fallacy of the Preterist thought, it must make much of prophetic symbolism actually mean less than what it appears to be saying on the surface.

[Selene]

My name is Selene.  SHEEZ     The Bible says "... 'The whole world is gone after him.' (John 12:19)  Did all the world go after Christ? The Bible also says, 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' (1 John 5:19).  Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? 

By the way, don't you think you should worry more about Osama Bin Laden rather than the Pope?  Didn't you read my last post? 

[desertknight]

Unfortunately Selene, as you have discovered, in a world in which there is war and murder, abortion and immorality, hunger and injustice, greed and moral indifference, when some "Christians" are asked to define the 'Anti-Christ', the 'Beast', 'Babylon', they inexplicably, they incomprehensibly, point to a Church of brother Christians, spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ and celebrating Him in Word and Sacrament, and point their finger and exclaim, "It's them!"  "They are the 'Beast' and 'wh*re of Babylon'!"  While the Prince of Lies sows his seed of evil all around them and grins at what he harvests, all they can do is point to the altar of the Body and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ and shout, "Babylon! wh*re! Beast!", without understanding that they are making themselves that harvest.

You have put up the good fight, Selene, but the Prince of Lies has succeeded in his work with them.  All I will do is pray for them.  They are blind to anything else.  How sad they are so misguided about Christ's Holy Church at this advent of His birth.   

[mclees8]

9. It is immediately stated that it takes God's wisdom to understand the disclosure. The seven mountains (or hills) are proof that mystical Babylon cannot be ancient, literal Babylon, which was situated in a plain and not on mountains. However, it is known that Rome is built on seven hills (e.g., the Quirinal, Capitoline, Palatine); classical writers familiarly spoke of "the city of seven hills

[desertknight]

You should not be so condescending.

Condescending?  I am not condescending, Sir, but my patience has run out with all you good "Christians" who insist on calling the Body of Christ, His Holy Church, a wh*re!  Those that have will need my prayers for the Prince of Lies that caused them to fall will insist on their fellowship for eternity.

[mclees8]

You should not be so condescending.

Condescending?  I am not condescending, Sir, but my patience has run out with all you good "Christians" who insist on calling the Body of Christ, His Holy Church, a wh*re!  Those that have will need my prayers for the Prince of Lies that caused them to fall will insist on their fellowship for eternity.

And who is his Holy church? Be careful now You just might find the you are condescending 

I see the church that is deeply entrenched in Babylon. It is plain for those who have eyes. The call was for his church to come out of Babylon. That is to separate yourself from this world and all its seduction,  be focused only on Christ  the groom. Jesus is calling for His bride to come out: a just call. We should listen and take heed. we don't want to be judged along with Babylon. the judgment will be severe.

Look at REV 16 :10,11

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Still praying Night

[desertknight]

You have equated a Church, the Church, that I belong to, that preaches the Word of Christ, that worships, Christ, that receives His Precious Body and Blood in remembrance of Him, and you have once again called that a wh*re.  I hope you are still praying.  You will need those prayers my friend.  You can try to justify your actions with make-believe one world government aluminium hat theories, but in the end, you have repeatedly refered to the Body of Christ as a wh*re.  You will need every prayer you have.  I am no longer patient with these good "Christians" who drag the Body of our Lord through the gutter and think in their arrogant work for Satan, that they are in the right.  How disgusting and shameful.

[mclees8]

You have equated a Church, the Church, that I belong to, that preaches the Word of Christ, that worships, Christ, that receives His Precious Body and Blood in remembrance of Him, and you have once again called that a wh*re.  I hope you are still praying.  You will need those prayers my friend.  You can try to justify your actions with make-believe one world government aluminium hat theories, but in the end, you have repeatedly refered to the Body of Christ as a wh*re.  You will need every prayer you have.  I am no longer patient with these good "Christians" who drag the Body of our Lord through the gutter and think in their arrogant work for Satan, that they are in right.  How disgusting and shameful.

No sir i did not call the body of Christ A whore. At least not the true bride. Listen It was the Word of God given to John that makes that claim.  And those who understand knows what it is. I'm sorry you don't want to see or understand what Babylon is and why Babylon and Christs true bride cannot sleep in the same bed.
The day will come when the truth will come out and you will then see and you will have to make a choice.Those who will here his voice will face great persecution. The sad thing is there there is so much ignorance apathy and unbelief. Christ knows his bride and they will listen to his voice. On that day the sheep will be separated from the goats and the tares from the wheat. Those parables were speaking to the church so we know the church will be divided. but it won't be Protestant Catholic.  I have every right to proclaim it. If i know the truth then I must shout  it from the roof tops.  It was Christ himself who said "not all who  say Lord :Lord shall enter into the kingdom." If we say we are believers then why do we not believe. Some will never even look at the book of Revelation. And you might like to see 17 erased from the book. Remember now what it says.

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: Rev 1:3

I pray to see you on the other side.
God bless and still praying.   

[desertknight]

No, I don't want to see Rev. 17 disappear, as I know what it means.  It is not we Catholics, but the Protestants who made books of the Bible "disappear".  You have every right to argue what you wan't.  You have every reason to fear the consequences of it.  You said...

"Those parables were speaking to the church so we know the church will be divided. but it won't be Protestant Catholic.  I have every right to proclaim it."

But then why are you going on, post after post, in equating the Catholic Church with "Babylon" in Rev. 17-18?  You are dishonest.  You rail against Christ Body, His Church, as a wh*re, then when you are called on it you go back to claiming that you are not being specific about the Catholic Church.  Really?