The Shroud

[ConqueredbyLove]

New information on...

Wow, even I might believe now it is the burial cloth of our Saviour...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_italy_shroud_of_turin

[caldwelljr11]

Keep in mind tsome of he claims against this being the Shroud of Christ:

1.  Carbon dating to 13th/14 Century (but other tests claim of biblical times)
2.  Jewish custom at time of Christ's death was to anoint the body with a balm and wrap in strip wrappings (7-10

[antheia187]

Last Sunday as I attend a mass, our priest have discussed to us about it.

we worship Jesus not idols.

In HisLove

[ConqueredbyLove]

Last Sunday as I attend a mass, our priest have discussed to us about it.

Precious soul...

Please feel free to PM me if you need to.  There are some very cruel, judgmental, unknowing about our hearts,  remarks on here.

(((Hugs)))  

[Fallen Knight]

The Shroud is equal in all ways to answered prayer. I find it sad on your part that you would look at an answered prayer in such a shallow way.

But that is your choice

[Selene]

Aids to their faith? I think it's rather sad if you need a piece of material to strengthen your faith in Christ Jesus. I'm not sure about others.. but I also find it's a waste of time, and simply a distraction.

I think that God is so loving that He would even provide an image of Himself to mankind so that our faith in Him would be strengthen.  Afterall, God desires to save all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4).  Many people do not have the faith of Abraham.  If God had told you to sacrifice your child for Him, would you have done' it?  That takes great faith.   How many people have that kind of faith? Today, if one heard a voice from Heaven telling him to kill his child, he would atumoatically assume it was the voice of Satan.  But Abraham knew that this voice came from God.  And Abraham knew that even if he killed his son, God would provide and give his son life.  That was Abraham's faith.  And God did allow the child to live.

God knows that man's faith is very very weak just like the Israelites faith in Him was weak.  That was why God told Moses to build a bronze serpent (Numbers 21:6-9).  The bronze serpent was an icon pointing toward God and leading them toward God, and it was God Himself who healed them.  It was only when the Israelites started to worship the bronze serpent that God had it destroyed (2 Kings 18:4).   An icon or an image can strengthen a person's faith by leading them toward God, but an icon should  NEVER be worshiped as God.  That was the lesson the Israelites learned regardng the bronze serpent. 

In the New Testament, Jesus said "The Son of Man must be lifted up as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him." (John 3:13-14).  In here, the serpent that Jesus was referring to was the bronze serpent that God told Moses to build.  If the image on the Shroud of Turin is indeed the image of Jesus Christ, then Christ has left behind His image to strengthen our faith even more so that we may believe in God.  Afterall, which one of us has the kind of faith that Abraham has?

[caldwelljr11]

I understand why the shroud would "strengthen

[ConqueredbyLove]

For the record...

I started this thread as a result of a Yahoo news article.  Before that news article I thought that the Shroud probably was not the burial cloth of Jesus.  But the new information on it caught my attention.

I have rarely thought of the Shroud.  After I saw the article, I wanted to share it so I started this thread.  If I could have forseen some of the  comments, as a result of this topic, I would never have started it.

For on this thread there have been many hateful posts.  We have been accused of being idoloters and of running all over the world looking for relics.  We have been accused of not sitting at the feet of Jesus for 5 minutes.  One person was accused  that "Your agenda in coming to this board is to DESTROY the Christian's TOTAL reliance upon the Word of God for his salvation, life, and daily walk in Christ Jesus to the glory of God the Father."

This is hateful, ugly stuff and I feel horrible that it happened.  For you that have endured such ugliness, I am so sorry and sad for you.  For you that have read this, hoping to find some love in Christianity, I am deeply sorry.  Please know that God is not like some of the posts that you read here.  He really is not...

[Selene]

BOTTOM LINE: He does not have to worry about what I say for I am just a man...his problem will be what he will have to account for when he comes face-to-face with the Lord Jesus Christ--->the REAL judge.

I believe you are also Catholic. Am I correct on this?

Marcello

Yes, Christ is the REAL judge.  So, what makes you think that YOU can judge?  Yes, God will judge Winsome for his actions, but He will also judge you for your own actions as well.  Did you not read in the Bible that Jesus said to love your neighbor and not to judge? 

And yes, I am Catholic, and Jesus taught me that all men (regardless of what color, race, or beliefs) were created in God's image.   As St. Paul said to the pagans in Athens:

Acts 17:26-28  From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.  God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.  'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' 

Surely, you did not think that Jesus died only for you?  Did you not know that He died for all sinners including those whom you hate.
   

[Bon Voyage]

Keep the topic to the Shroud of Turin, or your posts will be deleted.

[Bon Voyage]

All discussion about whether or not icons or relics are idols or tools has been moved to the discussion topic "Are icons tools or idols" and moved to the Catholic Forum.

[Charles Sloan]

Aids to their faith? I think it's rather sad if you need a piece of material to strengthen your faith in Christ Jesus. I'm not sure about others.. but I also find it's a waste of time, and simply a distraction.

I think that God is so loving that He would even provide an image of Himself to mankind so that our faith in Him would be strengthen.  Afterall, God desires to save all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4).  Many people do not have the faith of Abraham.  If God had told you to sacrifice your child for Him, would you have done' it?  That takes great faith.   How many people have that kind of faith? Today, if one heard a voice from Heaven telling him to kill his child, he would atumoatically assume it was the voice of Satan.  But Abraham knew that this voice came from God.  And Abraham knew that even if he killed his son, God would provide and give his son life.  That was Abraham's faith.  And God did allow the child to live.

God knows that man's faith is very very weak just like the Israelites faith in Him was weak.  That was why God told Moses to build a bronze serpent (Numbers 21:6-9).  The bronze serpent was an icon pointing toward God and leading them toward God, and it was God Himself who healed them.  It was only when the Israelites started to worship the bronze serpent that God had it destroyed (2 Kings 18:4).   An icon or an image can strengthen a person's faith by leading them toward God, but an icon should  NEVER be worshiped as God.  That was the lesson the Israelites learned regardng the bronze serpent.  

In the New Testament, Jesus said "The Son of Man must be lifted up as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him." (John 3:13-14).  In here, the serpent that Jesus was referring to was the bronze serpent that God told Moses to build.  If the image on the Shroud of Turin is indeed the image of Jesus Christ, then Christ has left behind His image to strengthen our faith even more so that we may believe in God.  Afterall, which one of us has the kind of faith that Abraham has?

This is a very compelling argument for relics, although I personally don't believe in they contain any supernatural power. I do believe the shroud is authentic, but I think it is merely a wonderful piece of archeology to evidence Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection due to the testing that revealed the image was imprinted by high levels of radiation.

I have been one of the more vigorous opponents of catholicism in the past, but I have mellowed. I do think catholics tread a fine and dangerous line between veneration and idolatry, and I have heard all the justifications imaginable. My only concern for the slippery slope that Israel found themselves in worshiping all sorts of things because of their nature, their sinful nature which is no different than ours. Mixing images and religion is a very dangerous practice, ask Aaron.

But the op gives interesting new development to the shroud mystery. I believe my fellow shroudies will all agree.

[Selene]

This is a very compelling argument for relics, although I personally don't believe in they contain any supernatural power. I do believe the shroud is authentic, but I think it is merely a wonderful piece of archeology to evidence Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection due to the testing that revealed the image was imprinted by high levels of radiation.

I have been one of the more vigorous opponents of catholicism in the past, but I have mellowed. I do think catholics tread a fine and dangerous line between veneration and idolatry, and I have heard all the justifications imaginable. My only concern for the slippery slope that Israel found themselves in worshiping all sorts of things because of their nature, their sinful nature which is no different than ours. Mixing images and religion is a very dangerous practice, ask Aaron.

But the op gives interesting new development to the shroud mystery. I believe my fellow shroudies will all agree.

There are no supernatural powers in icons.  All power came from God.  Even the bronze serpent spoken about in the Book of Numbers didn't have any power.  It was only an icon that God instructed Moses to build.  It was an icon that pointed only to God, but it was God who healed the Israelites, not the bronze serpent.  When the Israelites started to worship the bronze serpent, God destroyed it.  The bronze serpent was never meant to be worshiped.  In the same way, the Shroud is not meant to be worshiped.

God knows the hearts of every person.  He can determine whether he/she is worshipping the shroud or not.  Idoltry is not found in statues or shrouds. It is found only in the hearts of human beings.  So, if a person puts his trust more in money that in God, then that person is already guilty of idoltry.  If a person loves his child more than God, then he/she is also guilty of idoltry.  First and foremost, we are to love God with all our mind, soul, and heart.  That is Abraham's faith, and this is the kind of faith that we are called to have.  Jesus said that those who put wife, mother, father, son, and daughter before Him is not worthy to be with Him.

[Marcello9]

*["...For on this thread there have been many hateful posts...One person was accused  that 'Your agenda in coming to this board is to DESTROY the Christian's TOTAL reliance upon the Word of God for his salvation, life, and daily walk in Christ Jesus to the glory of God the Father.'"]

***A post is "hateful" if its content is FALSE and presented to cause hurt to another party. If the content of a post is TRUE and not intended to hurt a party but to instruct---then it is not HATEFUL.

I am the person who posted the comment that you referred to above...and I do NOT apologize for making it. The person to whom I made the statement was a ardent opponent of "Sola Scriptura" and belonged to the Roman Catholic faith (who instigated the anti-Sola Scriptura movement in response to Martin Luther's pro-Sola Scriptura position).

The Roman Church promulgated the anti-Sola Scriptura movement because they could NOT support their anti-biblical doctrines by the Scriptures...and set out destroy the credibility of the Scriptures and, in turn, the Christian's TOTAL reliance on the Word of God for his salvation! You and others on this thread have alleged that what I posted was hateful even though I told the truth. Now isn't that special? I submit that we are  living in a day when "political correctness" is considered the "norm"...and people do not want or can bear to hear the truth from "bigots" like me...but would rather hear something that would make themselves feel good and bolster their self-esteem.

BOTTOM LINE: I told the truth...and you (and others of your persuasion) don't like to hear the truth because some say it causes "disharmony"..."divisions" within the "body of Christ." The truth is...all on this thread are not of the "body of Christ."   

Marcello

[Charles Sloan]

Marcello,

If anyone understands the heat on the front of the debate against roman doctrine its me, but there are rules on this message board that protect anyone who confesses faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior. If you choose to disagree with their doctrine you are free to discuss it, but calling people names will only get you banned. So keep the comments that insult people to yourself, since they are not helping your cause even if they were allowed. Just stick to doctrine and speak the truth in love, not in anger or disgust.

Merry Christmas Marcello and God bless.

[Marcello9]

Marcello,

If anyone understands the heat on the front of the debate against roman doctrine its me, but there are rules on this message board that protect anyone who confesses faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior. If you choose to disagree with their doctrine you are free to discuss it, but calling people names will only get you banned. So keep the comments that insult people to yourself, since they are not helping your cause even if they were allowed. Just stick to doctrine and speak the truth in love, not in anger or disgust.

Merry Christmas Marcello and God bless.

***I should not have signed the agreement form to get on this forum. That agreement form stifles dissent and I will not compromise my beliefs in order to have "ecumenical" dialogue at the expense of truth.

I agree to be banned.

Marcello

[Charles Sloan]

Marcello,

I think you should stay and learn peaceable restraint in discussions with catholics. Martian Luther even apologized for the inflammatory writtings he circulated because he knew it did nothing to help his cause, and he recognized this error as his own. But Luther stood by his works that exposed the evils and tyranny of the papacy and the errors of catholic dogmas which lead to the reformation.

I would encourage you show the same longsuffering and temperance (Gal 5:22-23).

[larry2]

Marcello - BOTTOM LINE: I told the truth...and you (and others of your persuasion) don't like to hear the truth because some say it causes "disharmony"..."divisions" within the "body of Christ." The truth is...all on this thread are not of the "body of Christ." 

larry2 - Here comes the judge when Christ is the Judge. With your mouth have you condemned yourself as not being of the "Body of Christ?" Matthew 7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Seeing no love in your posts, I can't tell. Maybe you can tell me what chariot, or church organization you rode in on. You mention Sola Scripture; maybe you can list it to be trodden down according to how you interpret it. 

[Victor08]

From   http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/16/mideast.ancient.shroud/index.html


Shroud from Jesus' era found, researchers say

By Kevin Flower, CNN
December 16, 2009 11:15 a.m. EST

Jerusalem (CNN) -- Researchers said Wednesday for the first time they have found what they believe to be pieces of a burial shroud from the time of Jesus.

The find is of importance because tests on the shroud and the body it wrapped revealed the earliest proven case of leprosy in the Old City of Jerusalem.

And in addition, the weave of the shroud raises fresh doubts about the Shroud of Turin, which many people believe was used to wrap the body of Jesus.

[zoonance]

Sometimes if I don't take a shower for a few days, I leave behind my impression in my sheets. Drives the wife crazy.

[ConqueredbyLove]

Sometimes if I don't take a shower for a few days, I leave behind my impression in my sheets. Drives the wife crazy.

I am so grieved that I ever started this thread...

God have mercy...it makes me so very sad...

[Ciscokid]

Sometimes if I don't take a shower for a few days, I leave behind my impression in my sheets. Drives the wife crazy.

I am so grieved that I ever started this thread...

God have mercy...it makes me so very sad...

Nothing to be sad about, the authenticity of the Bible doesn't rest on a shroud.

[zoonance]

Sometimes if I don't take a shower for a few days, I leave behind my impression in my sheets. Drives the wife crazy.

I am so grieved that I ever started this thread...

God have mercy...it makes me so very sad...

This bothers you?  A clown making a joke?  While the serious jerks were treating you like dirt?   I was breaking the mood. Smile!    I try to be a sit down comic....   

[Selene]

Nothing to be sad about, the authenticity of the Bible doesn't rest on a shroud.

And even if the Bible didn't exist, we know that God still exists. 

[Elaine]

I personally do not think anyone worships the Shroud.

Do I worship a pressed rose from a lover now dead? No.
Do I touch it occassionally and am taken to another place in my heart
apart from the everyday washing of dishes?  Yes.

I have studied the Shroud quite a bit. I personally believe it to be real.
It may not be. 

I don't care because  I am open to the whispers of the possibility and the power of my mind to transport me to a place of reverence...at the mere possibility that it is.

And that is what counts  ---that I can raise my awareness from the ordinaary to the higher realms where love lives.

[walker starr]

   I have heard so many different theories regarding the shroud.  Real - unreal I don't profess
   to know.  What I do Know however is that I do not know.  Those who say it is not real do not
   know either.  What I know for certain is that When I meet JESUS if I remember to ask HIM I will
   be told but it really won't matter then.  It really doesn't matter now.  GOD BLESS EVERYONE.