Is Universalism Biblical? ( A Closer Look )

[chezandlilly]

Yeah but you are under the mistaken belief that there is a difference between Unitarian Universalists and Christian Universalists....I am not.
They are one in the same saying the same thing except that one uses the Name of Jesus.
They are one in the same because bottom line, both groups are saying all people will "ultimately" be saved whether they accept and believe in Christ or not. Jesus did not say that and that is not Biblical 

By that line of reasoning I could say that Muslims and Orthodox Christianity are one and the same as both believe in eternal (endless) torment, as do most Greek and Roman Pagan religions.

Christian Universalism says that no-one can be saved other than by the blood of Christ. Wiccans do not.

If you believe everyone will be Saved even though they do not accept profess and believe in Christ...you indeed believe the same thing as a Unitarian and thereby the same thing as a Wiccan   

I did not say everyone will be saved even though they do not accept or profess Christ, you are putting words in my mouth and did not read my prior post.

No-one comes to the Father but through Christ. All roads DO NOT lead to God.... how is that the same as Unitarianism or Wiccan? Who, by the way, believe that one comes to God through self-knowledge and acts of kindness.

Whats amazing and dangerous is how URs redefine the Love of God according to their own limited human understanding of God's Love.
God's Love has been demonstrated in what He has done by providing a way for those who believe, receive and ACCEPT HIS Invitation to Salvation. The Love is demonstrated in the INVITATION OF ALL with no preconditions other than ACCEPTING IT.God is not in the business of making people ACCEPT HIM or Love Him if he were, we wouldn't be having this discussion because Adam would have been created with NO CHOICE other than to OBEY and to LOVE GOD 

I can agree with most of this, God does not force us to believe or obey... however, Holy Spirit does convict and use the Law to bring whoever HE chooses to salvation. It is ONLY by His power and grace that anyone can come to Him. Jesus said we did not choose Him but He chose us. We do not come to Christ using our own initiative. We are drawn.

I do not believe that man in his willfulness or sinful nature or depravity can stand before Christ face to face and not be melted an totally humbled by His presence. Man's willfulness, rebellion and pride are not greater than Christ.

Think on it.

A NON BELIEVER must have a PERSONAL REVELATION of Jesus, it cannot be coerced, reasoned or punished into them. If you think it can than you totally mis-characterize and redefined the Love of God according to what you think Love should be according to what you think is fair 

Yes, a non believer MUST have a personal revelation of Jesus. And I agree, they cannot be coerced, reasoned or punished into it. That is what preachers who believe in eternal torment do... IF you don't accept Christ you will go to hell! Accept Christ or you will burn for all eternity!! Is that coercian or what?
Those who believe in eternal torment believe that when God says all knees shall bow and all tongues confess that it means God will coerce and force them to glorify Him before He throws them into the literal lake of fire. 'Glorify' Him by force?

For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.[/color] Matthew 25:29

Contemplate on the above verse. Please keep in mind these are the Words of The Lord Jesus.

Ahh yes... words said and written for Christians.

The Love of God professed by UR falls short of its own lofty human ideal in that UR professes that people will eventually Love God by means of an afterlife punishment.  

That's if you believe the lake of fire is retributive and vindictive and you think that is what God is like. UR's believe the fire of God (our God is a consuming fire) to be restorative and remedial.

(Malachi 3:2)"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's FIRE, and like fullers' soap".

(1Co 3:15)  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[k-pappy]

(Malachi 3:2)"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's FIRE, and like fullers' soap".

(1Co 3:15)  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Way out of context.  Those apply to believers.

The Lake of Fire is the second death, thanatos, end, cease.

That is what is waiting for everyone whose name is not written in the book of life.

In Christ,
bond

[chezandlilly]

Your last statement is made up, doesn't have anything to do with the verses you posted.
Overcomers are believers...they are not made up of non believers who have been punished...where are you getting that?

You have to have CHOSEN LIFE and to be in the Book of Life. Jesus is Life!

You're mixing a lot of stuff up in this response and I am not quite sure what you're TRYING to say.....
But I'd like to point out ...He who has an ear are only those who can hear The Voice of God. They must have a spiritual ear. This does not include mockers, unbelievers and those who profess anti christ beliefs...sorry, They DON'T HAVE AN EAR

You were using the marriage feast to show that unbelievers are kicked out and receive eternal damnation.

I was trying to show you that unbelievers are not invited to the marriage feast to begin with, so how could an unbeliever sneak in? The passage about the marriage feast is to show that christians who are not attired in a spotless white wedding gown will be thrown out. It has nothing to do with unbelievers.

The marriage feast is for believers... and believers who are overcomer's and who have been so cleansed as to be the bride of Christ.. without spot or wrinkle.

[chezandlilly]

(Malachi 3:2)"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's FIRE, and like fullers' soap".

(1Co 3:15)  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Way out of context.  Those apply to believers.

The Lake of Fire is the second death, thanatos, end, cease.

That is what is waiting for everyone whose name is not written in the book of life.

In Christ,
bond

Where do you get the idea the Malachi verse is only for believers who come to Him in this lifetime?

And I grant you that the Corinthian verse is for believers, however:

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Please don't tell me that 'what shall be the end of them what obey not the gospel of God' means endless torment.

If the second death ends, ceases... then where are those tormented eternally going? Or do you believe in annihilation?

[gospel]

Jiggyfly

  What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

Debbie try reading post #2and #3 of this thread.

I've come to the conclusion that I could post a gazillion scriptures that support UR and some would just ignore the posts and respond with "can you post scripture?"

Maybe because there is no scripture that supersedes what Jesus said

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned[/i], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

What I love about this verse is that the word "believe" is used 3 times. Also please note the word Condemned is not in any way modified in any way to be seen or defined as temporary

The John the Baptist someone we can consider pretty much an authority on the Messiah which he dedicated His Life work to prepare others...sealed the whole matter with the following verse.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

[gospel]

Jiggyfly

  SO you have no verses that stand out in defense of your theological point of view?

We have already established that you were in error in 1 Peter. It didn't support your argument. I was looking for more concrete verses. But if you cannot provide them, that is fine also.


GTM

Sure I have many scriptures but to be honest with you I really don't feel like putting time into it at this moment( lots of things to do for the holiday). Maybe next week but I'm sure it will just be ignored anyway. I posted 10 times the scriptures than those in the OP yet they are ignored.  So at any rate maybe latter on I will post.

When Sherman gets back! 

[gospel]

I have a problem with annihilation only because I believe all spirit beings are eternal. I see damnation as a life sentence for spiritual criminals. Since they live forever God has to sentence them to an eternal place somewhere apart from His Presence.

Satan and his fallen angels are rebels and enemies of God, Although The eternal fire was not created for humans, those who hear the Gospel of Grace and do not turn to Christ remain in allegiance with those who have rebelled.

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed,into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. .

Sorry to hear that Gospel.  I hope maybe at some future date we can discuss this topic in depth.

Genesis 3:22 (New International Version)

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Until we are allowed to eat there is no eternal life.

James 5:20 (King James Version)

20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

John 3:16 (New International Version)

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Without the "gift" of the Son there is no eternal life.

Romans 6:23 (New International Version)

23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life is a gift and without that gift our lives end.

Matthew 7:13 (New International Version)

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Matthew 10:28 (New International Version)

28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)

8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."


2 Peter 2:12 (New International Version)

12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

[/quote]

Davyd I would say that even the verses you posted show us that eternal life outside, apart and deprived of the Presence of God is really not life at all and cannot be considered living as defined by God.

That holds true here on earth as well in that Life outside of Christ, void of the New Birth is not Life at all but to them that are without Christ they are in the grips of Spiritual Death.

Just as we were when we were without Christ... all who are not Partakers of the Divine Nature are indeed dead in their trespasses

For It is the Spirit that gives Life

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. John 6:63


who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life 2 Corinthians 3:6

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.John 5:24

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.1 John 3:14

[gospel]

By that line of reasoning I could say that Muslims and Orthodox Christianity are one and the same as both believe in eternal (endless) torment, as do most Greek and Roman Pagan religions.

Christian Universalism says that no-one can be saved other than by the blood of Christ. Wiccans do not.

Wiccans do not believe choosing Christ in this life has any bearing on where they will spend eternity

URs believe the same thing. Under UR theology the Wiccan that does not believe in Christ will end up in the same place with the URs that believe in Christ...therefore

Believing and accepting Christ doesn't matter and on that both Wiccan and URs agree.

Different paths to the same destination.

Christianity is Believing Jesus is the One path and choosing that One path in this life to reach the desired destination!

URs don't believe it matters what you choose in this life...so do Wiccans!

[k-pappy]

Please don't tell me that 'what shall be the end of them what obey not the gospel of God' means endless torment.

If the second death ends, ceases... then where are those tormented eternally going? Or do you believe in annihilation?

I'm not sure what some of those big words mean...I believe in the Bible and the Bible says the Lake of Fire is the second death.

In Christ,
Bond

[gospel]

I do not believe that man in his willfulness or sinful nature or depravity can stand before Christ face to face and not be melted an totally humbled by His presence. Man's willfulness, rebellion and pride are not greater than Christ.

With all due respect... what bible are you reading?

When one reads the gospel one encounters numerous persons that were not melted or humbled by Jesus presence.

Neither did they recognize Him as God in the flesh or His Words as the Words of God

The reality is some will not because they are not His

John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word  

Some will remain in the world

John 14

17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?

[chezandlilly]

URs don't believe it matters what you choose in this life...so do Wiccans!

Wrong again!! We are to obey the Lord in sharing the gospel and being involved in the ministry of reconciliation. Wiccans don't believe in the gospel. It matters a great deal to me to see people saved NOW..... NOW is the day of Salvation. I want more than anything to see people resurrected from spiritual death and enjoy the life eternal we gain by knowing Christ.

IF you truly love the Lord you will have His heart for the lost. If you don't love, then you don't care.

btw.... how many christians who believe in eternal torment get out there and care where the lost are going and go preach the gospel?
How many live lives pleasing to the Lord?

[gospel]

Quote
For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.[/color] Matthew 25:29

Contemplate on the above verse. Please keep in mind these are the Words of The Lord Jesus.

Ahh yes... words said and written for Christians.

Actually these words were spoken to Jews

[gospel]

URs don't believe it matters what you choose in this life...so do Wiccans!

Wrong again!! We are to obey the Lord in sharing the gospel and being involved in the ministry of reconciliation. Wiccans don't believe in the gospel. It matters a great deal to me to see people saved NOW..... NOW is the day of Salvation. I want more than anything to see people resurrected from spiritual death and enjoy the life eternal we gain by knowing Christ.

IF you truly love the Lord you will have His heart for the lost. If you don't love, then you don't care.

btw.... how many christians who believe in eternal torment get out there and care where the lost are going and go preach the gospel?
How many live lives pleasing to the Lord?

If everyone is going to be Saved anyway your witnessing doesn't matter does it?

Honestly

The more you post the less you seem like a UR

Jiggy and Sherman say everyone is going to be Saved... even if they do not believe but only after a period of punishment

Whats your take on that?

[chezandlilly]

With all due respect... what bible are you reading?

When one reads the gospel one encounters numerous persons that were not melted or humbled by Jesus presence.

Neither did they recognize Him as God in the flesh or His Words as the Words of God

I'm not talking about when Jesus was a man on the earth, I'm talking about meeting Him face to face in the realm of the eternal. He will not look like you or me there or weighed down by an earthly body of flesh.

[gospel]

With all due respect... what bible are you reading?

When one reads the gospel one encounters numerous persons that were not melted or humbled by Jesus presence.

Neither did they recognize Him as God in the flesh or His Words as the Words of God

I'm not talking about when Jesus was a man on the earth, I'm talking about meeting Him face to face in the realm of the eternal. He will not look like you or me there or weighed down by an earthly body of flesh.

Understood but by then ....times up!

Some will be in the Book of Life...others will not....sad but true according to the bible.

That's the purpose of spreading the gospel to help others to choose  Life

[chezandlilly]

If everyone is going to be Saved anyway your witnessing doesn't matter does it?

Honestly

Honestly, if judgment begins at the house of God now, and knowing from first hand experience the judgments I've been through in my life to cause me to die to the flesh and live unto God, then what is the outcome for those who don't believe now.... pretty darn horrific. I would not want anyone to go through the fire of the second death.. which will be exceedingly painful. I would rather see them saved now and exhort them to become a disciple of Christ... and die daily to the flesh.

The more you post the less you seem like a UR

I don't like to class myself as anything but a christian. UR is simply a doctrine of philosophy and eschatology, it's not a religion.

Jiggy and Sherman say everyone is going to be Saved... even if they do not believe but only after a period of punishment

Whats your take on that?

Very simply put, yes, I believe that....
emphasis on 'going to be', not all are saved now. All are reconciled from God's perpective now.

[chezandlilly]

Understood but by then ....times up!

Some will be in the Book of Life...others will not....sad but true according to the bible.

That's the purpose of spreading the gospel to help others to choose  Life

Show me from scripture that we can only receive salvation in this lifetime.

[k-pappy]

Show me from scripture that we can only receive salvation in this lifetime.

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

In Christ,
Bond

[Sherman Nobles]

Maybe because there is no scripture that supersedes what Jesus said

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned[/i], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

What I love about this verse is that the word "believe" is used 3 times. Also please note the word Condemned is not in any way modified in any way to be seen or defined as temporary

The John the Baptist someone we can consider pretty much an authority on the Messiah which he dedicated His Life work to prepare others...sealed the whole matter with the following verse.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

[chezandlilly]

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

You probably think this is real and not a parable, but I believe it to be a parable given to the Pharisee's to show the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to the Gentiles, it has nothing to do with heaven or hell, so you haven't proven to me there is only this life (or age) to receive salvation with this set of scriptures.

1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

In Christ,
Bond

Nor with these. This concerns entry into the marriage feast of the Lamb and has nothing to do with receiving salvation, or being born again, or when. This also shows that many christians who do not go on to cleanse their garments and become the spotless Bride of Christ and do not 'abide in Him' will be cast out of the 'marriage feast'. In other words, not all christians make it to the marriage feast.

[chezandlilly]

Please don't tell me that 'what shall be the end of them what obey not the gospel of God' means endless torment.

If the second death ends, ceases... then where are those tormented eternally going? Or do you believe in annihilation?

I'm not sure what some of those big words mean...I believe in the Bible and the Bible says the Lake of Fire is the second death.

In Christ,
Bond

Are you sure you're not a politician? Good skirting job.. 

So in your opinion (which undoubtedly you get from the scriptures), do those in the Second Death, or, the Lake of Fire, stay in that death/fire, endlessly? If not, what happens to them?

[Dayvd]

Davyd I would say that even the verses you posted show us that eternal life outside, apart and deprived of the Presence of God is really not life at all and cannot be considered living as defined by God.

That holds true here on earth as well in that Life outside of Christ, void of the New Birth is not Life at all but to them that are without Christ they are in the grips of Spiritual Death.

Just as we were when we were without Christ... all who are not Partakers of the Divine Nature are indeed dead in their trespasses

For It is the Spirit that gives Life

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. John 6:63


who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life 2 Corinthians 3:6

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.John 5:24

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.1 John 3:14

God indeed gives Spirit of Life.  God also decides whose Spirit will be eternal and whose will end.

If there was no God as the atheist claims then there would be no difference between a human death and the death of a tree.  AH, but God has a different plan for those who love Him!  That plan is the gift of eternal life!  Praise God for His love!  Without that gift tho, the second death in the lake of fire is the end of the spirit of those who refuse His gift.

[jiggyfly]

Jiggyfly

  SO you have no verses that stand out in defense of your theological point of view?

We have already established that you were in error in 1 Peter. It didn't support your argument. I was looking for more concrete verses. But if you cannot provide them, that is fine also.


GTM

Sure I have many scriptures but to be honest with you I really don't feel like putting time into it at this moment( lots of things to do for the holiday). Maybe next week but I'm sure it will just be ignored anyway. I posted 10 times the scriptures than those in the OP yet they are ignored.  So at any rate maybe latter on I will post.

When Sherman gets back! 

Well while we're waiting on Sherman to get back why don't you answer all the scriptures posted in post #2 and #3.

[jiggyfly]

Jiggyfly

  SO you have no verses that stand out in defense of your theological point of view?

We have already established that you were in error in 1 Peter. It didn't support your argument. I was looking for more concrete verses. But if you cannot provide them, that is fine also.


GTM

By the way you were suppose to post your findings on Col 1:19-22, I'm still interested in your opinion on it. You can post it here in this thread. It's one of the scriptures in those I posted at the start of this thread.

[jiggyfly]

Jiggyfly

  What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

Debbie try reading post #2and #3 of this thread.

I've come to the conclusion that I could post a gazillion scriptures that support UR and some would just ignore the posts and respond with "can you post scripture?"

Not a single one of those verses stated that a person will be saved regardless of what they believe.

Show that from the Bible, please.

Not a single one of those verses state anything about karma or purgetory.

Show that from the Bible, please.

In Christ,
Bond

I think you have UR mixed up with unitarianism, I don't believe that everyone is reconciled regardless of whether they believe in Christ or not and I don't believe that other religions like buddhism, hinduism, judaism, islam lead to reconciliation, nor have I ever stated such. You assume to much. Read the posts. There is only ONE way to reconciliation with Father and it's through the Son, Jesus the Christ. I do believe that because of God's character, His ability, His will and His plan that are expressed clearly in the scriptures ALL will be reconciled through Christ in the end.



Are we all clear on that?

[jiggyfly]

Quote
For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.[/color] Matthew 25:29

Contemplate on the above verse. Please keep in mind these are the Words of The Lord Jesus.

Ahh yes... words said and written for Christians.

Actually these words were spoken to Jews

Actually 99% of Jesus' words were spoken to Jews but I find it funny that you didn't make mention of it when you pointed out that nothing supersedes Jesus' words awhile back, and that you use many of his words to support your prosperity gospel. Are you Jewish?

[jiggyfly]

This was a somewhat difficult task to just name five scriptures that I believe support UR because there are so many. But in short here are five that I believe clearly indicate the reconciliation of all humanity.

John 12:31&32    The time of judgment for the world has come, when the prince of this world [fn] will be cast out.   And when I am lifted up on the cross, [fn] I will draw everyone to myself."


Act 3:21   For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his prophets.

Romans 5:6-21   When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners. Now, no one is likely to die for a good person, though someone might be willing to die for a person who is especially good. But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.   And since we have been made right in God's sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God's judgment. For since we were restored to friendship with God by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be delivered from eternal punishment by his life.   So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God--all because of what our Lord Jesus Christ has done for us in making us friends of God. When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.


 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. And though there was no law to break, since it had not yet been given, they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. What a contrast between Adam and Christ, who was yet to come! And what a difference between our sin and God's generous gift of forgiveness. For this one man, Adam, brought death to many through his sin. But this other man, Jesus Christ, brought forgiveness to many through God's bountiful gift. And the result of God's gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man's sin. For Adam's sin led to condemnation, but we have the free gift of being accepted by God, even though we are guilty of many sins. The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who receive God's wonderful, gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. Yes, Adam's one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness makes all people right in God's sight and gives them life. Because one person disobeyed God, many people became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many people will be made right in God's sight. God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful kindness became more abundant. So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Philippians 2:9-11   Because of this, God raised him up to the heights of heaven and gave him a name that is above every other name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,   and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col 1:19-22   For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross.   This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, yet now he has brought you back as his friends. He has done this through his death on the cross in his own human body. As a result, he has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.

Like I said earlier I have many more scriptures that support the reconciliation of all things, humanity included. If anyone is interested just let me know.

[GTM]

JiggyFly

Thank You  for the verses. I will be out of town until Friday Evening but when I get back I will begin going through them.

God Bless

GTM

[jiggyfly]

JiggyFly

Thank You  for the verses. I will be out of town until Friday Evening but when I get back I will begin going through them.

God Bless

GTM

Your most welcome GTM and hope you have a enjoyable and safe trip.

[Dayvd]

This was a somewhat difficult task to just name five scriptures that I believe support UR because there are so many. But in short here are five that I believe clearly indicate the reconciliation of all humanity.

Thanks Jig!

It is very difficult to decide which five to post.  And then to do so with a bunch of clammering going... I may not agree with you but I am impressed that you came thru.

[jiggyfly]

This was a somewhat difficult task to just name five scriptures that I believe support UR because there are so many. But in short here are five that I believe clearly indicate the reconciliation of all humanity.

Thanks Jig!

It is very difficult to decide which five to post.  And then to do so with a bunch of clammering going... I may not agree with you but I am impressed that you came thru.

Thanks for the encouraging words Dayvd.

[Johnb]

I am coming into this late.  I must admit I struggle with the concept of a just God selecting a group (Jews) and making them His children.  (problems with free will)  I also struggle with the concept of those never hearing of Christ being lost because they were born in the wrong place.

However, I also struggle with clear passages like Matt 25

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

While I do not accept universal salvation I understand those who do.   

[gospel]

Show me from scripture that we can only receive salvation in this lifetime.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

[godisuniversal]

Well since hell doesnt exist, aion (translated eternity) means 'age lasting', God says he will one day be ALL IN ALL, Jesus said he would drag all men to himself, Gods will is that all be saved, EVERY tounge will confess Jesus is Lord and no one can confess 'Jesus is Lord' unless they have the holy spirit, I would have to conclude that yes, it is God's will that ALL be saved, and if it is his will then ALL will be saved, i cannot doubt the power of an all LOVING all POWERFUL God, and refuse to put boundaries on a great love which surpasses knowledge.

[chezandlilly]

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.