Where will I find God's true Church to day ?

[drewhemm]

Considering the fact that the overwhelming majority of 'Christian' denominations actively teach their members to disregard the written word of God via man-made traditions, relativistic excuses or blatant misinterpretations of Scripture, all with varying motives, finding a true church shouldn't actually be that difficult...

The problem is that most people accept such behaviour as normal and follow other people instead of God. If we were all prepared to call such behaviour out as the evil it is, there may still be tens of thousands of denominations, but the majority of them would see their attendance plummet to single digits.

Instead of listening to too much , we should be (says someone who frequently )

[Seriousseeker]

Everyone here seems to either be defending their sect or claiming no one can know.  God intends that we know His testimony.  I believe the post I have set on the Protestant section of CF site  about CHURCH FAILURE gets to the truth of this issue, and I will just leave it to the serious seekers to visit it.

[Prentis]

As it was in the days of Jesus, the people of God is divided.

But as it was in the days of Jesus, God has a remnant. The church is spread all over the world. Our concern is to be of it. God is the one who grafts us in... If we seek, we will find.

God doesn't make the real church obvious because it would be flooded by visitors, tourists. So he makes it obscure.

[MeMyself]

God doesn't make the real church obvious because it would be flooded by visitors, tourists. So he makes it obscure.

OH! BROTHER!!!

[Prentis]

Considering the fact that the overwhelming majority of 'Christian' denominations actively teach their members to disregard the written word of God via man-made traditions, relativistic excuses or blatant misinterpretations of Scripture, all with varying motives, finding a true church shouldn't actually be that difficult...

The problem is that most people accept such behaviour as normal and follow other people instead of God. If we were all prepared to call such behaviour out as the evil it is, there may still be tens of thousands of denominations, but the majority of them would see their attendance plummet to single digits.

Instead of listening to too much , we should be (says someone who frequently )

Indeed!  That kind of test reveals who is really after the truth... And usually leaves us with very few people. 

[Prentis]

To us who read the Bible, we hear of Jesus' story and it is obvious to us that HE is the son of God and that all those who followed him are God's people. But that's an inside view. Has it ever occurred to us that had we been just an outsider, like just about everyone was, we would of looked at Jesus and his disciples and thought of them as 'just another group'? That's actually what happened. The Sadducees were there, the Pharisees were there, and everyone saw it as another sect.

There is a time for the Pentecost, for the Spirit to work mightily and many be converted. Just as there was a time for the Israelites to come out of the desert. But then there is a time of testing, the wilderness.

God hides the truth from men, but reveals it to babes. God hides a matter, but it is the honor of kings to find it.

If God made the truth obvious and easy, all would take it, but for their own gain. But he makes the entrance difficult, so that only those who seek it as children and out of a pure heart receive it.

[MeMyself]

If God made the truth obvious and easy, all would take it, but for their own gain. But he makes the entrance difficult, so that only those who seek it receive it.

The entrance is Christ Jesus and it is easy...but some find it difficult to deny that THEY are god, that THEY can't do it on their own, that THEY aren't in control and must surrender to Him as Lord.

[Lively Stone]

God doesn't make the real church obvious because it would be flooded by visitors, tourists. So he makes it obscure.

Nonsense.

We, the Church, are the light of the world, that beacon of Hope to those lost and floundering, and we are the salt of the earth, offering the truth and healing to the confused and dying.

Hard to conceal that!

[Lively Stone]

God doesn't make the real church obvious because it would be flooded by visitors, tourists. So he makes it obscure.

OH! BROTHER!!!

Yeah. What bible is that from?

[Lively Stone]

Matthew 5:14
"You are the light of the world—like a city on a hilltop that cannot be hidden.

[Lively Stone]

If God made the truth obvious and easy, all would take it, but for their own gain. But he makes the entrance difficult, so that only those who seek it receive it.

The entrance is Christ Jesus and it is easy...but some find it difficult to deny that THEY are god, that THEY can't do it on their own, that THEY aren't in control and must surrender to Him as Lord.

Exactly! 

[Lively Stone]

If God made the truth obvious and easy, all would take it, but for their own gain. But he makes the entrance difficult, so that only those who seek it as children and out of a pure heart receive it.

The way of salvation is simple. What makes it hard is the mind of man that refuses to get off his own throne.

[Prentis]

If God made the truth obvious and easy, all would take it, but for their own gain. But he makes the entrance difficult, so that only those who seek it receive it.

The entrance is Christ Jesus and it is easy...but some find it difficult to deny that THEY are god, that THEY can't do it on their own, that THEY aren't in control and must surrender to Him as Lord.

Luk 13:24  Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

The way is narrow. It requires as you say surrender. But the surrender God desires is not just acknowledgment of our lack. It might begin this way. But then we must move on. We must then not only acknowledge that our own life is not the will of God, but submit this very life to the cross and watch it be crucified. Man can only do this when he has faith in God's promise that he will give him a better life, one that is pleasing to God. Then we can walk in the same life as he and be as he is.

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3  And this will we do, if God permit.

[MeMyself]

If God made the truth obvious and easy, all would take it, but for their own gain. But he makes the entrance difficult, so that only those who seek it receive it.

The entrance is Christ Jesus and it is easy...but some find it difficult to deny that THEY are god, that THEY can't do it on their own, that THEY aren't in control and must surrender to Him as Lord.

Luk 13:24  Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

The way is narrow. It requires as you say surrender. But the surrender God desires is not just acknowledgment of our lack. It might begin this way. But then we must move on. We must then not only acknowledge that our own life is not the will of God, but submit this very life to the cross and watch it be crucified. Man can only do this when he has faith in God's promise that he will give him a better life, one that is pleasing to God. Then we can walk in the same life as he and be as he is.

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3  And this will we do, if God permit.

Christ is the gate John 10:9

He is the narrow way (the only way)

It requires simply confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, to be saved.
It is then that God marks us with the seal of His ownership and begins His good work in us that He will be faithful to complete.

[OldDad]

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3  And this will we do, if God permit.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

The phrase in bold is the Greek verb phrase τετελείωκεν - it is a Perfect Active Indicative verb form. It characterizes an action that was completed in the past but also has continuing results in the present (or, stated differently, it characterizes a state of completion that endures presently).

Jesus HAS PERFECTED us - it's over, done.

[chosenone]

As it was in the days of Jesus, the people of God is divided.

But as it was in the days of Jesus, God has a remnant. The church is spread all over the world. Our concern is to be of it. God is the one who grafts us in... If we seek, we will find.

God doesn't make the real church obvious because it would be flooded by visitors, tourists. So he makes it obscure.

Hmm I think that God WANTS people to visit His church actually. 
Of course we are ALL His church whichever one we go to. We are ALL parts of His body on earth, and we have a worldwide family in loads of different places.

[chosenone]

If God made the truth obvious and easy, all would take it, but for their own gain. But he makes the entrance difficult, so that only those who seek it receive it.

The entrance is Christ Jesus and it is easy...but some find it difficult to deny that THEY are god, that THEY can't do it on their own, that THEY aren't in control and must surrender to Him as Lord.

Luk 13:24  Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

The way is narrow. It requires as you say surrender. But the surrender God desires is not just acknowledgment of our lack. It might begin this way. But then we must move on. We must then not only acknowledge that our own life is not the will of God, but submit this very life to the cross and watch it be crucified. Man can only do this when he has faith in God's promise that he will give him a better life, one that is pleasing to God. Then we can walk in the same life as he and be as he is.

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3  And this will we do, if God permit.

Christ is the gate John 10:9

He is the narrow way (the only way)

It requires simply confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, to be saved.
It is then that God marks us with the seal of His ownership and begins His good work in us that He will be faithful to complete.

Yep. The narrow way is Christ Himself. He alone is the gate for the sheep. Its not hard is it.

[Man_Of_Honor]

Considering the fact that the overwhelming majority of 'Christian' denominations actively teach their members to disregard the written word of God via man-made traditions, relativistic excuses or blatant misinterpretations of Scripture, all with varying motives, finding a true church shouldn't actually be that difficult...

The problem is that most people accept such behaviour as normal and follow other people instead of God. If we were all prepared to call such behaviour out as the evil it is, there may still be tens of thousands of denominations, but the majority of them would see their attendance plummet to single digits.

Instead of listening to too much , we should be (says someone who frequently )

Amen!

[Seriousseeker]

It is one thing to be saved ---"born again", in the universal Church, a  true "child of God", etc;  and then to be part of a company expressing and embracing the unity God intended in His collective testimony.  That has been much of my concern.  I am very happy to embrace every real "child of God", though I cannot always walk with all.

As I have often said: there is a great difference between ignorance and rebellion of the truth.  Let us not be in the latter, for that would be spiritual loss.

[eph3nine]

The CHURCH is not a building made with hands. It is also NOT a denomination that meets in one of those buildings. The CHURCH is comprised of individual members of a unique and living entity which is called the church which is His BODY. The BODY church follows the gospel given to Paul by Christ RISEN and its instructions are found in Romans thru Philemon. It covers the biblical timeline which is called BUT NOW in Eph. 2. All the rest of the Bible is written for our instruction, but NOT for OUR obedience, as it is having to do with Gods COVENANT/marriage/Kingdom program with the nation of Israel.

[BlackSepulcher]

It's my understanding that the Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Coptic Orthodox denominations claim to be the true Holy Apostolic Church.

Which one is it, exactly?

....and why does it matter?

Which one of these churches stick out the most? In other words, which one has a prominence and mighty significance stretching throughout history, landing on the Earth with an impact worthy of such a title as *an infallible, authoritative, world changing church of Christ*?

I'm just trying to illustrate what is typically understated or, in some cases, ignored.

I have nothing but love for these churches, but the Roman Church by far fits the bill of what such a glorified church aforementioned by God should be, given the context in which it is told of being in scripture.


Anybody can dislike the Church all they want, but one thing they cannot do is deny that it's influenced and shaped this world exponentially over any other church. It brought Christianity even to those who would eventually dissent and form their own churches- it's the genesis of western Christianity, and was an iron fist for the East.

[HRoberson]

Depends on what part of the world you're in. If Moscow, the Orthodox church fits the bill nicely.

Whether size is a valid marker of validity is questionable and we would expect that characteristic to be promoted by supporters of the largest group. But visible nose counts is nowhere suggested as a sign of truth or God's favor.

I highly respect the good that the RC does, and her commitment to what she understands the faith to be. But she has had a relatively unfettered realm of operation as opposed to her sisters surrounded by oppressive political systems. I would think that they could argue that persecution is a more valid and promised mark of the church than is size or "might."

However, which is the "original, pedigreed" church is lost on me because it largely doesn't matter. How we do church is considerably less important than how we live. The church is either a tool or simply the results of people coming to God. She is not an end in herself and there is no defined shape for her.

[DaveW]

However, which is the "original, pedigreed" church is lost on me because it largely doesn't matter.

We have been in talks with Rome about that issue, and others.

I would like to quote a lengthy passage from the first vision document published by the "Toward Jerusalem Council Two" (www.tjcii.org) which was written by Roman Catholic theologian Fr Peter Hocken on re-establishing unity.  This was written toward the end of John Paul II's reign as pontif.

Why the Participation of All is Necessary
The TJCII vision as it developed from the first meeting of the
committee is directed toward all nations and all churches and
movements that confess the name of Jesus.

This breadth is essential to the vision
First, the Pauline vision of the church as the union of Jew and
Gentile in the one body is expressed in the letter to the Ephesians,
which perhaps more than any other letter in the New Testament
presents a universal and cosmic vision of "the many in the one":
the "plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him [Christ],
things in heaven and things on earth" (Eph. 1: 10). It is the vision
of Christ, under whose feet the Father has "put all things" and who
has been made "the head over all things for the church" (Eph. 1:22).

The sectarian tendency to reject all other expressions of faith in
Jesus Christ as deviant or defective was itself a fruit of the
replacement/rejectionist thinking that had refused any Jewish
expression in the early centuries. The acceptance of the rightness
and the necessity of Jewish and Gentile expressions of faith within
the one body excludes all sectarianism.

Secondly, the TJCII initiative has to reach all Christian churches
and communities, because all Christian churches and communities
have in varying degrees accepted an ecclesiology that excludes the
Jews. The responsibility for the rejection of Jewish expressions of
faith in Jesus varies from one church to another, but all had
received an understanding of the church that required the complete
assimilation of Jewish converts.

Thirdly, every Christian tradition carries a distinctive witness of
the Holy Spirit that is needed for the fullness and the final
completion of the one body of Christ. This witness of the Holy
Spirit can only find its true place in the framework that
acknowledges the first place of the elder brother.

The Responsibility of the Historic Churches
As the outline of the history of TJCII makes clear, the impulse for
this initiative came from the Messianic Jews supported first by
evangelical Christians. Up to this point, the evangelicals and the
charismatics have made the biggest contribution. The intercessors
praying for TJCII have been mostly evangelical-charismatic
intercessors. It is from this background that the teaching and
practice of identificational repentance has come. It is for these
reasons that it was possible for those first involved to think of an
initiative that did not include the historic Churches.

However, the development of TJCII has made clear how essential
it is for the initiative that there is a full participation by the historic
Churches of East and West. To start with, these are the churches
originally responsible for the teaching that the Church has replaced
Israel, as a result of Israel's denial of the Lord Jesus. These are the
churches responsible for the exclusion of the Jewish church. They
have therefore an indispensable role in expressing their repentance
and grief for these sins against the Jewish people and specifically
against the Jewish church. Ultimately, this role cannot be properly
played by anyone except the descendants in faith of those who
were more immediately responsible. No other bodies can replace
them in an official annulling of the original decisions.

Since TJCII began, Pope John Paul II has taken some remarkable
initiatives in regard to a Catholic expression of sorrow for the sins
of Catholics against the Jewish people through the ages. The
Jewish people, who have a sharp awareness of who oppressed
them through the centuries, immediately recognized the
importance of the papal actions and statements. When the Pope
visited Yad Vashem and prayed at the Western Wall in Jerusalem,
the Jewish people knew that something historic was happening.
The expression of a Christian repentance needs to be led by the
Catholic and by the Orthodox Churches.

However, there are also positive reasons why the contribution of
the historic Churches is essential. They embody different elements
of biblical tradition to the post-Reformation churches and
communities. "This schism between Jew and Gentile was the
original split in the Body of Messiah, and became the root for all
further divisions in the Church throughout the centuries" (TJCII
Original Declaration). For this reason, the Christian recognition of
the Jewish expression of the church will release a major impulse
for unity among all the Christian bodies that have become divided
through the ages.

[HRoberson]

Yes, and no.

I appreciate the angst caused by the early church's wanting to rid herself of Jewish influence, I am not at all sure how that plays out today. I don't know that this  (whatever it is) can only be resolved in a framework that acknowledges the elder brother, as though we have to shift our thinking from the Catholic Church as the original church to acknowledging that the first Christians were Jews.

I don't know of anyone who doesn't admit that Paul and Jesus were Jews, or that the church in Jerusalem played a key part in the early church. What I do know is that Gentiles need not worry about Jewish practices and such practices were not to be bound on them. Most Christians are Gentiles, and there is no Biblical expectation that Gentiles would become "Jewish" Christians. Besides, most Protestant groups spend their time explaining why they aren't Catholic rather than dissing Jewish believers.

If there are Jews who want to become Messianic Jews, then that may be a different story but I suspect not given the rumors about Paul's teachings and his writings.

Given all that, if Jewish folk want to have their own expression of church, fine by me, but I am not sure why getting the Pope to acknowledge his "sins" is such a big deal. Do you expect to gain some sort of legitimacy by gaining his imprimatur? Are you looking for some document that says Messianic Jews are "Christian," signed by the heads of the some odd 2000 denominations in the world? What would that accomplish?

[HRoberson]

As a follow up to my previous post, if the Messianic Jewish community wants some sort of recognition, why not have your representative group join the National Council of Churches, or the World Council of Churches? They are both all about ecumenism and if you want an apology, they'd probably give you one.

I'm not sure how your life changes after that though.

[DaveW]

It is more of a spiritual warfare issue than just some personal sense of legitimacy.

The TJCII executive board has met with both JP2 and Benedict.  I am sure that they will meet with Frances before the year is out as well.   They have also met with at least one of the EO patriarchs (sorry do not remember which one) .

[HRoberson]

Spiritual warfare in what sense?

[DaveW]

Spiritual warfare in what sense?

Read post #163 and pay attention to the last paragraph of the article I quote.


Edited to correct post number

[HRoberson]

163, I think.

The Catholic church already acknowledges that the invisible church is made up of Christians in other churches. She does not deny that Messianic Jews are Christians and are acceptable to God. What she denies is that others church structures represent the "true church" with all its charisms. She reserves that for herself.

She does a poor job of teaching the folks in the pews this.

There is already an acknowledged spiritual unity within the invisible church as far as the Catholic church is concerned.Yes, mthere are a couple caveats to that but church expression per se nor Jewish expression per se are obstacles.

Given that the World Coucil of Churches currently acknowledges an even greater unity among churches, I'm not sure that a Catholic agreement would be such a watershed moment.

[DaveW]

The Catholic church already acknowledges that the invisible church is made up of Christians in other churches. She does not deny that Messianic Jews are Christians and are acceptable to God.

NOW that is true.  Historically that is not the case.

And we are not just seeking to change the current stances; we are seeking to right centuries of wrong that will change the spiritual dynamic from one of schism to one of reconciliation.

[HRoberson]

The Catholic church already acknowledges that the invisible church is made up of Christians in other churches. She does not deny that Messianic Jews are Christians and are acceptable to God.

NOW that is true.  Historically that is not the case.

And we are not just seeking to change the current stances; we are seeking to right centuries of wrong that will change the spiritual dynamic from one of schism to one of reconciliation.

If it is true now, then you're wanting something that already exists.

If it is true now, what schism exists?

If what you want is an apology, why insist on it? Why not just acknowledge that they now like you and move on with your lives?

It would help if you could paint me a picture of what might change if you are successful, because I'm missing the import of this work.

[DaveW]

It would help if you could paint me a picture of what might change if you are successful, because I'm missing the import of this work.

Then go read the TJCII documents on their website www.tjcii.org 

That will lay it out in better detail than I can here.

[FireSword]

163, I think.

The Catholic church already acknowledges that the invisible church is made up of Christians in other churches. She does not deny that Messianic Jews are Christians and are acceptable to God. What she denies is that others church structures represent the "true church" with all its charisms. She reserves that for herself.

She does a poor job of teaching the folks in the pews this.

There is already an acknowledged spiritual unity within the invisible church as far as the Catholic church is concerned.Yes, mthere are a couple caveats to that but church expression per se nor Jewish expression per se are obstacles.

Given that the World Coucil of Churches currently acknowledges an even greater unity among churches, I'm not sure that a Catholic agreement would be such a watershed moment.

Amongst some discussion here with catholics, there is an agreement that the one true church doctrine was formulated during the early days, meaning that other faiths outside the apostolic church typically 'invented' their own religion or continued with those of ancient Egypt, Babylon, Greek, Roman etc. Pauls said 'he that preached another gospel other than the one we have preached let him be accursed'

But Protestantism offers a different challenge in that these are people of that same faith given to Abraham and the prophets, but the church continues to preach that she's the one true church and that Protestants are outcasts, even as excommunicated, because some say people must be part of catholic church to be saved. But scriptures are clear that Jesus will not cast away his people.

[HRoberson]

163, I think.

The Catholic church already acknowledges that the invisible church is made up of Christians in other churches. She does not deny that Messianic Jews are Christians and are acceptable to God. What she denies is that others church structures represent the "true church" with all its charisms. She reserves that for herself.

She does a poor job of teaching the folks in the pews this.

There is already an acknowledged spiritual unity within the invisible church as far as the Catholic church is concerned.Yes, mthere are a couple caveats to that but church expression per se nor Jewish expression per se are obstacles.

Given that the World Coucil of Churches currently acknowledges an even greater unity among churches, I'm not sure that a Catholic agreement would be such a watershed moment.

Amongst some discussion here with catholics, there is an agreement that the one true church doctrine was formulated during the early days, meaning that other faiths outside the apostolic church typically 'invented' their own religion or continued with those of ancient Egypt, Babylon, Greek, Roman etc. Pauls said 'he that preached another gospel other than the one we have preached let him be accursed'

But Protestantism offers a different challenge in that these are people of that same faith given to Abraham and the prophets, but the church continues to preach that she's the one true church and that Protestants are outcasts, even as excommunicated, because some say people must be part of catholic church to be saved. But scriptures are clear that Jesus will not cast away his people.

Not every Catholic knows what their church teaches.

[trifecta]

Firesword,  although I disagree with your point, it is clear and well-stated.

Amongst some discussion here with catholics, there is an agreement that the one true church doctrine was formulated during the early days, meaning that other faiths outside the apostolic church typically 'invented' their own religion or continued with those of ancient Egypt, Babylon, Greek, Roman etc. Pauls said 'he that preached another gospel other than the one we have preached let him be accursed'

True, this is why apostolic succession is so important.  Paul and slightly later Clement say the real faith is according to what we taught
and those whom we appoint teach.  The pattern continues from generation to generation until current times.   Today, four churches
trace their beginnings to the apostles --Rome, Orthodox, Coptics, Assyrian, (and maybe Armenian).  Most Anglican and some Lutheran
claim their stream is from the Roman branch.

But Protestantism offers a different challenge in that these are people of that same faith given to Abraham and the prophets, but the church continues to preach that she's the one true church and that Protestants are outcasts, even as excommunicated,

Protestantism makes an defensible claim.  They say, over time, the truth of the church was lost as time passed.  The truth is
ultimately more important than heritage.   This is true.  What the Protestant forgets is the ecumenical councils (starting in
Act 15) meet to iron out these truths.  There were 7 ecumenical councils from fourth to eighth centuries.  They have further
defined the unchanged faith (Jude 3) to deal with issues of the time.

  The RCC has strayed from the truth of the councils starting with the filioque.    Unfortunately, Protestants have no organized way of determining the truth.  Therefore, they fight--going back to Calvin and Luther.  There are no ecumenical councils in Protestantism--just my word versus yours.  Oddly, Protestants claim they have the mind of the early church.  To me, it is obvious that the Protestant fathers did not have a Semitic mindset.

The real true church must be not only be truthful but historical (going to the beginning). Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail
against his church, so the idea that the true church flounder for 1500 years makes Jesus is be a liar, which of course no Christian thinks he was. One of those four (or five) churches must be the one true church.  I believe it is the Orthodox church.

because some say people must be part of catholic church to be saved. But scriptures are clear that Jesus will not cast away his people.

Now, here is where it gets confusing.  Historically, to be a member of the church was to be a member of the saved community (although individuals in the church who don't really believe are in trouble as anyone else would be).  Today, I don't think so.  Nowhere is
scripture does it say that the church equals those in the book of life.  Therefore, I agree with the above statement, even though it would
be better to be in that one true church.

Vatican II confuses the issue further by claiming there are "invisible" members of the church.  While I am pleased the RCC thinks that
others outside the RCC may be saved (yes, that is a change in position), it muddies the issue of what is the church.  The church is
both spiritual and *physical*, as is it's head our Lord Jesus Christ. It is not just the sum of all the saved. There is no physicality in that nor
does the Bible say that.