2nd Coming of Christ

[djadzin]

I am excited about the second coming of Christ.  I hope that you will allow me to share with you a brief document written by my pastor regarding what is surely the most exciting event in all Bible prophecy.

http://www.gracebaptistroseville.com/index_files/The_2nd_Coming_of_Jesus_Christ.pdf

I hope that you enjoy it as much as I did.

Dale

[JESUS]

I truly wonder what will he think when he will witness all his followers who have all been led astray?

[larry2]

I truly wonder what will he think when he will witness all his followers who have all been led astray?

I'm not quite what you are suggesting. What is a follower of Christ to you, or a believer in Christ as their Savior?

[Debbie_55]

One thing we can all agree on is that Jesus is coming back to take His bride home to paradise. When? no one knows but He does give us signs to watch for, but when you hear that great trumpet sound then look up for your redemption is nigh as Jesus comes in the clouds and calls His saints home. We can argue and debate all the theories that are out there until we are blue in the face, but what we need to be doing is being about our Fathers business of taking His word of Salvation out to the world before it is to late as this is the great commission and we need to take His word out with love and compassion and help meet the needs of those who need our help. 

[farouk]

Ms Debbie:

One thing we can all agree on is that Jesus is coming back to take His bride home to paradise. When? no one knows but He does give us signs to watch for, but when you hear that great trumpet sound then look up for your redemption is nigh as Jesus comes in the clouds and calls His saints home. We can argue and debate all the theories that are out there until we are blue in the face, but what we need to be doing is being about our Fathers business of taking His word of Salvation out to the world before it is to late as this is the great commission and we need to take His word out with love and compassion and help meet the needs of those who need our help. 

"The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout..." 1 Thess. 4.

The challenge: be ready....

The believer's prayer: "Even so, come Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22).

Take care.

[Jon-Marc]

I believe that believers will be taken up (Rapture) just prior to the tribulation. Jesus will not set foot on the earth at that time, but we will rise to meet Him in the air--as statesd in 1 Thess 4. After the tribulation, Jesus will return and remove all unbelievers from the earth and set up His 1,000 year reign on earth.

[Tantor]

So you believe in a 3rd coming?.... sheesh.. the things people read into scripture to support their non-biblical framework they use to interpret the bible.

[farouk]

T:

So you believe in a 3rd coming?.... sheesh.. the things people read into scripture to support their non-biblical framework they use to interpret the bible.

Hey, that's a bit derogatory.

[JESUS]

I think this time round Jesus will not be too please with what has happened in his name. He is no doubt our Saviour and we must all prepare ourselves accordingly, so that he will be well pleased with all of us.

[yogi bear]

I believe that believers will be taken up (Rapture) just prior to the tribulation. Jesus will not set foot on the earth at that time, but we will rise to meet Him in the air--as statesd in 1 Thess 4. After the tribulation, Jesus will return and remove all unbelievers from the earth and set up His 1,000 year reign on earth.

Okay first I admit I have not given the end times much study because I personally do not think that there is much I can do about it except to be ready. with that said it leaves me with this question.

Where does it say Jesus is going to set up His 1,000 year reign on earth?

Like I said I have not studied this but only hear others talk about such so have been exposed to such teaching and read some on it but not dug into it.

What I have come to understand id that Jesus will return to collect his own. Yes we will join him in the sky to go home with him. That is the final coming and all will go before the judgement seat.

On the setting up a 1,000 reign on earth I do not see that from scripture. I understand that the Jews thought that but was wrong in that thought. Jesus is now in his reign and it was never to be on earth.

So what am I missing?

[TonkaTim]

I'm very careful in discussion of endtimes prophecy. I try sincerely try to heed the Apostle Paul's warning in 2 Thessallonians 2 that deals with endtimes.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

I always try to approach scripture in it's full context very prayerfully. I always ask myself when I see discussion of endtime prophecy is it in accordance with the "taught" "traditions". Is it the historical view. I put emphasis on the historical views because it seems it is what Paul is telling us to do. I consider the preserved writings of the 1st & 2nd century Church as well. I think we all should ask if they are some of the "traditions".

I'm going to link all of 2 Thessalonians 2 so we can see the full context:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

I'm going to discuss some people who for lack of a better word now appear lost to the modern interpreters. The Apostle John who wrote Revelation had a disciple/student named Polycarp. Polycarp was the Bishop of Smyrna who lived to a great age before he was martyred for his testimony. Polycarp not only was a student of the Apostle John, but knew the other Apostles as well. Polycarp also knew others who had seen Christ. He was a man of great faith proven by his amazing and well documented stand unto death for Christ. Unfortunately only one letter written by Polycarp is known to survive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarp

Polycarp had a student/disciple known as Iranaeus who became the bishop of Lyons. We have a great volume of work still preserved written by him. In part of it he writes about the endtimes. Irenaeus taught the historical view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus_of_Lyons

Irenaeus had a student/disciple known as Hippolytus who was horribly martyred for his testimony to Christ. Hippolytus' writings are preserved as well. Hippolytus like Iranaeus taught the historical view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolytus_of_Rome

The historical view does not teach a secret rapture. It teaches the saved in Christ are the heirs of Abraham. It teaches the saved in Christ are Israel. It teaches the believers in Christ will go through the great tribulation. That we as believers will be "gathered" at the 7th trump when Christ returns.

I ask, do to Paul's warnings about the "traditions taught" & about the "strong delusion" which view should really be accepted? The historical one or the modern one? It may be important.

[JESUS]

In order to recognise the end of times, you have to recognise the signs of the coming of the hour, it will come when we will all expect it least. We must understand that the life of the world is only for a while and in the end, we must all return back to our Lod who created us. This is the evident truth, this life will only seem like an hour in a day compared to the eternal abode which awaits us all.

[larry2]

The historical view does not teach a secret rapture.
It teaches the believers in Christ will go through the great tribulation. That we as believers will be "gathered" at the 7th trump when Christ returns.

Dear TonkaTim, I might ask what you think the following verse pertains to?

Revelation 3:10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
 
You refer to the seventh trump when Christ returns, and that well could be, but scripture calls it the last trump. Could there possibly be prior trumps when Christ meets us in the air?

[farouk]

The trumpet of God is mentioned in 1 Thess. 4. There, it involves the church. It does not seem to involve Israel or the world directly, from the context.

[Jon-Marc]

I never cease to be amazed with how many Christians confuse Christ's return IN THE AIR to take His people home (when He does NOT set foot on the earth) with His return TO THE EARTH to set up His 1,000 year reign.

[farouk]

JM:

I never cease to be amazed with how many Christians confuse Christ's return IN THE AIR to take His people home (when He does NOT set foot on the earth) with His return TO THE EARTH to set up His 1,000 year reign.

Clearly there are those two distinct aspects in view.

But you know what might be behind it? For many people in the clerical system, the priesthood with its Levitical tithes and privileges is just too inviting a system not to encourage people to emulate, and the idea that comes with it is that the church is really Israel: hermeneutically unsound, but attractive for clergy looking for privileges and tithe-based stipends.

[TonkaTim]

Dear TonkaTim, I might ask what you think the following verse pertains to?

Revelation 3:10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
 
You refer to the seventh trump when Christ returns, and that well could be, but scripture calls it the last trump. Could there possibly be prior trumps when Christ meets us in the air?

Larry,
As I noted in my above post I am very careful when discussing endtime prophecy, I am ever more careful when discussing the Book of Revelation. I heed to John's warning in Revelation very cautiously.

Revelation 22:18-19
"18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

But I will say, the verse(Revelation 3:10) you are talking about when put in context is one promise to one church does not apply to all 7 churches. Thus it does not mean a universal "secret rapture".
Revelation 3:7-13
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Now there is one common theme mentioned for all 7 churches; overcoming. Since that is the common theme would that not be a the greater theme to consider?

As far as your last question I am going to refer back to my first reply in this thread. The Apostle Paul cautions about "strong delusion" vs "taught""tradition". It is why I referenced the specific peoples for there are more that can be referenced. It shows the direct link from the Apostle John the Revelator >Polycarp>Iranaeus>Hippolytus to  establish a "taught""tradition". That "tradition" is why it is considered historical, it has been the view from the time of the Apostles till the late 19th century. It is still the dominant view in most the churches around the world.

It is only here in the west & mostly in America where the dispensation view is steadily increasing & strongly taking hold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_premillennialism#History
Historic premillennialism draws its name from the fact that the early Church Fathers (e.g. Ireneaus [140–203], who as a disciple of Polycarp, who had been an disciple of the apostle of John, Justin Martyr [100–165], and Papias [80–155]) held to this theology. Historic premillennialism was a popular view amongst Protestant Christians until the rise of dispensationalism in the 19th and 20th centuries. Proponents of historic premillennialism include Baptists John Gill, Charles Spurgeon, Benjamin Wills Newton, a contemporary and fierce theological rival to John Nelson Darby the father of dispensationalism

I don't make issue of this because I am smart, I am not, or wise, I'm not that either. Nor because I want to argue & debate, I don't. It is because I love my brothers & sisters in Christ. I don't want them deceived.

[Dexter]

Before, during, after. Not sure! Important thing is, are you ready when He comes?

[larry2]

Dear brother, misinterpreting scripture is not the same as changing it, or else all of would be done in.

TonkaTim - But I will say, the verse (Revelation 3:10) you are talking about when put in context is one promise to one church does not apply to all 7 churches. Thus it does not mean a universal "secret rapture".

larry2 - I believe you are 100% correct. But there is the one church promised to be kept from that time to come upon all the earth. Overcoming is certainly a theme in the churches, and only two of them are commended; Philadelphia and Smyrna and they both receive crowns. The remainder is told to repent or else face the consequences of tribulation for one.

As to being tagged a dispensationalist or what I do not care; I read Revelation and see different companies arrive in heaven at separate times starting with Revelation Chapter four. The two churches with crowns are there present with Jesus prior to the tribulation. We see others come out of great tribulation in Chapter Seven, and the 144,000 with Jesus in Chapter Fourteen.

[TonkaTim]

Dear brother, misinterpreting scripture is not the same as changing it, or else all of would be done in.

The scriptures are God's holy word. Shouldn't they be given great respect, reverence, & awe for the Truth contained & proclaimed? Treated with great caution when we study them? And with the utmost caution when one teaches from them?

We know from the gospels (Matthew 4:1-8) when Jesus was tempted by satan, that satan knows the scriptures well. That he will abuse them and misapply them to lead one to sin & damnation. Satan used them to try & tempt Jesus to "test" God. Had he (satan) suceeded (which was impossible)  we all would have been condemned to damnation because God's Holy One would have failed. So, can we correctly assume if one misapplies, abuses, & most importantly teaches false meanings through scripture, they do the devil's work and teach a lie that can lead to damnation?

I am extremely cautious with scripture. I studying it in mulitple english translations using the King James version as the primary text with the Geneva Bible & the New American Standard bible and more. Plus I use concordenances like Strong's to compare the lexicon and the meanings of words in the original greek & hebrew. I aslo read Bible commentaries like in the Geneva Bible, Matthew Henry's, plus many others including the early church writings. I pray over and beg for guidance through the Holy Spirit. I have literally pondered specific passages for years before I felt any semblence of confidence that I may have some  true understanding regarding them. Even after all this, my knowledge of all the scripture is so small it is shameful, another reason I am so cautious.

Think about this, If I were to twist your words and make you out a liar, you would be very mad at me. Now apply it to God's words, the holy scriptures.... caution indeed!

I believe you are 100% correct. But there is the one church promised to be kept from that time to come upon all the earth. Overcoming is certainly a theme in the churches, and only two of them are commended; Philadelphia and Smyrna and they both receive crowns. The remainder is told to repent or else face the consequences of tribulation for one.

I believe that you are on to something when you compare Smyrna & Philadelphia.

But first let me say this: The study of the 7 churches is profound & nuanced. It can be studied from multiple perspectives and they all may at times apply. First from the literal perspective of the 7 churches in the day John wrote Revelation, second from the perspective of the 7 church ages, also from the perspective of seven church arch-types that we see from the beginning to our our present time. Lastly from the perspective of how the warning & promises may apply to us as believers in our stages in our walk & growth in Christ. Just from the lessons that can be learned from the two short chapters in Revelation regarding the 7 churches is so profound it too illustrates again the need for great caution regarding scripture.

Now Smyrna & Philadephia - We see similarities, they are the only two without a strong warning of sin, they both are dealing/possibly presecuted by the synagogue of satan. Both are promised rewards Smyrna is promised a crown for faith unto death, but Philadelphia is promised to be a pillar in the temple of God. Which is greater? a crown of glory? or a pillar in the temple of God? The reference to a pillar can be two-fold. In a great building it is a like a load-bearing wall, it is a symbol of great strength, though they are told they are weak. A pillar was also erected by the patriachs & prophets as memorials to God. Is it possible when the Lord says He will "keep thee" He is promising his strength since they are weak in that they may endure more than Smyrna since their reward is greater? Is it possible the "hour(time) of temptation" is when the people of the world have to make the choice to worship the beast or reject & worship Christ & be persecuted?

If we conclude the new 19th-20th century "secret rapture theory" is not part of the "taught""tradition" the Apostle Paul told us to believe. If it is part of the "strong delusion" Paul warned us about, what becomes of the believer when it is their time to stand during the "hour of temptation"? Are they truly prepared? What will prevent them from accepting the Mark since they believe they will be raptured away prior to the "hour of temptation"? If the new 19th/20th century "secret rapture theory" is wrong could it condemn millions of people to damnation? Could even more millions become damned because some are considered "chosen" outside Christ, thus never witnessed to?

By now you notice I ask alot of questions. I'll tell you why I do. We are instructed to "test the spirits", to "prove all things". How do we prove things? I know I can not prove anything to a person, they must prove it to themselves. To "prove all things" we must ask - Why do I believe what I believe?
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good;"
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

As to being tagged a dispensationalist or what I do not care; I read Revelation and see different companies arrive in heaven at separate times starting with Revelation Chapter four. The two churches with crowns are there present with Jesus prior to the tribulation. We see others come out of great tribulation in Chapter Seven, and the 144,000 with Jesus in Chapter Fourteen.

I'm very relectuant to go into detail here do to John's warning. But I will ask;
Are you reading the Seven Seals, the Seven Trumps, the Seven bowls, 4 horsemen, etc. purely linear or parrallel? I was taught to read these events parrallel-linear as they lead to the same event, Christ's return. Why we have the term Second Coming, its from the historical "taught""tradition" Paul instructs us to hold fast to. Jesus comes again, Second Coming. Not again & again & again.(forgive me for over-simplication this point)

Love in Christ,
T

[larry2]

TonkaTim - Now Smyrna & Philadephia - We see similarities, they are the only two without a strong warning of sin, they both are dealing/possibly presecuted by the synagogue of satan. Both are promised rewards Smyrna is promised a crown for faith unto death, but Philadelphia is promised to be a pillar in the temple of God. Which is greater? a crown of glory? or a pillar in the temple of God? The reference to a pillar can be two-fold. In a great building it is a like a load-bearing wall, it is a symbol of great strength, though they are told they are weak. A pillar was also erected by the patriachs & prophets as memorials to God. Is it possible when the Lord says He will "keep thee" He is promising his strength since they are weak in that they may endure more than Smyrna since their reward is greater? Is it possible the "hour (time) of temptation" is when the people of the world have to make the choice to worship the beast or reject & worship Christ & be persecuted?

larry2 - The reward is being with Christ when He takes His throne in Revelation 4:2. Smyrna represents those faithful unto death who will be the dead in Christ that will be caught up first, and those of Philadelphia are alive, are kept from the tribulation, and are caught up together with Smyrna to meet the Lord in the air as a first rank of believers. If you look at Thyatira, unless they repent, they will be cast into great tribulation in Revelation 2:22.
 
TonkaTim - I'm very relectuant to go into detail here do to John's warning. But I will ask;
Are you reading the Seven Seals, the Seven Trumps, the Seven bowls, 4 horsemen, etc. purely linear or parrallel? I was taught to read these events parrallel-linear as they lead to the same event, Christ's return. Why we have the term Second Coming, its from the historical "taught""tradition" Paul instructs us to hold fast to. Jesus comes again, Second Coming. Not again & again & again.(forgive me for over-simplication this point)

larry2 - I am not attempting to align Christ's second coming at the last trump with that of His meeting His different saints in the air. As to how I read the seals and judgments does not conflict with the taking up of those that will reign in heaven.

My thoughts.

[TonkaTim]

larry2 - The reward is being with Christ when He takes His throne in Revelation 4:2. Smyrna represents those faithful unto death who will be the dead in Christ that will be caught up first, and those of Philadelphia are alive, are kept from the tribulation, and are caught up together with Smyrna to meet the Lord in the air as a first rank of believers. If you look at Thyatira, unless they repent, they will be cast into great tribulation in Revelation 2:22.
 
larry2 - I am not attempting to align Christ's second coming at the last trump with that of His meeting His different saints in the air. As to how I read the seals and judgments does not conflict with the taking up of those that will reign in heaven.

My thoughts.

Brother Larry,

Would you mind explaining your take on Rev 4:2 in a bit more detail. The line of scripture you quote reads in context describing what is happening to John when he is tranported & sees the Throne of God not the "rapture" or specific rewards promised:(I do agree being with God is reward enough)
Revelation 4:1-4
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Regarding Rev 2:22 You are reading the curse on the prophetess her followers "into great tribulation" as the The Tribulation? Are you 100% correct this means this means the rest of the church will be spared from The Tribulation?
Revelation 2:18-29
18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

But since we are on this passage, Do you know who Margaret MacDonald is?

Let me pose this to you on your reading. We call it The Tribulation in our modern lexicon due to the usage in Matthew & Mark due to the context of the word in relation to endtime prophecy. It is a modern accepted phrase for the endtimes, no where in the bible does it call the event The Great Tribulation. So context of the word is important.
Matthew 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Both the bolded words discribing the trouble at the endtimes is taken from the same greek word - see Strong's 2347 -
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2347

Going to quote some verses that uses the word to show its context means affliction, persecution not a specific event.
Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

I can see how one can interpret the connection you describe between Smyrna & Philadelphia. I struggle to see what you see in relation to the prophetess in Rev 2:22, but can understand how one from the rapture theory would want to interpret it that way.
You have yet to discuss 2 Thessallonians 2 specifically Paul's warning about "taught""traditions" & "strong delusion" regarding historical view vs the new view. Which was the theme & topic of my response to the OP. I've patiently responded to all you concerns as we have moved further away from my points & topic. I would like to ask you to kindly return back to my topic  I'm very curious how you reconcile Paul's warnings with the new view?
Prayerfully,
T

[p-nut]

Hippolytus like Iranaeus taught the historical view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolytus_of_Rome

T

Irenaeus and Hippolytus were not historicists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus_of_Lyons

Irenaeus declares that the Antichrist's future three-and-a-half-year reign will be terminated by the second advent, when he sits in the temple at Jerusalem,  with the resurrection of the just, the destruction for the wicked, and the millennial reign of the righteous. The general resurrection and the judgment follow the descent of the New Jerusalem at the end of the millennial kingdom.[42][45]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolytus_of_Rome

The "legs of iron

[TonkaTim]

Hippolytus like Iranaeus taught the historical view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolytus_of_Rome

T

Irenaeus and Hippolytus were not historicists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus_of_Lyons

Irenaeus declares that the Antichrist's future three-and-a-half-year reign will be terminated by the second advent, when he sits in the temple at Jerusalem,  with the resurrection of the just, the destruction for the wicked, and the millennial reign of the righteous. The general resurrection and the judgment follow the descent of the New Jerusalem at the end of the millennial kingdom.[42][45]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolytus_of_Rome

The "legs of iron

[larry2]

TonkaTim - Brother Larry,

Would you mind explaining your take on Rev 4:2 in a bit more detail. The line of scripture you quote reads in context describing what is happening to John when he is transported & sees the Throne of God not the "rapture" or specific rewards promised: (I do agree being with God is reward enough)

Revelation 4:1-4
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

larry2 - Hi dear brother, in Revelation 4:2 we see a throne set that will be Jesus' throne. Presently He is walking among the candlesticks judging the Church; thus what we see in Revelation Chapters two and three, and He sits at the right hand of our Father as our day's man. Notice Hebrews 2:8. "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." After Revelation 4:2 we sill see the Lord Jesus sit on His own throne, and take control of all except Him Who did put all things under Him. Notice one other thing in Revelation 4:6 that there are others there at this time in the midst of the throne with Jesus. This all occurs prior to the tribulation, and just how do they get there?

TonkaTim - Regarding Rev 2:22 You are reading the curse on the prophetess her followers "into great tribulation" as the The Tribulation? Are you 100% correct this means this means the rest of the church will be spared from The Tribulation?
Revelation 2:18-29
18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

larry2 - That only speaks of the Thyatira Church, but others that don't repent will enter part of the tribulation also. Only the church of Philadelphia that patiently kept the word of God who are alive when Jesus comes in the air for them and spared the tribulation, and the church of Smyrna who are faithful unto death will be present with Jesus when He takes power in heaven.

Revelation 7:13-15.
13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
 
TonkaTim - But since we are on this passage, Do you know who Margaret MacDonald is?

Let me pose this to you on your reading. We call it The Tribulation in our modern lexicon due to the usage in Matthew & Mark due to the context of the word in relation to end-time prophecy. It is a modern accepted phrase for the end times, no where in the bible does it call the event The Great Tribulation. So context of the word is important.

Matthew 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Both the bolded words describing the trouble at the end times is taken from the same Greek word - see Strong's 2347 -
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2347

Going to quote some verses that uses the word to show its context means affliction, persecution not a specific event.
Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

larry2 - I do not know who Margaret MacDonald is, but in Matthew Chapter 24 we are given a glimpse of that time of tribulation or affliction. Matthew 24:21 says it this way. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Now this portion describes the second half, or remaining three and one half years of the tribulation after the "Abomination of desolation" in the holy place. Three and one half years prior to that is known as the temptation to come upon all the world. That is when the "Two witnesses" will be preaching.

TonkaTim - I can see how one can interpret the connection you describe between Smyrna & Philadelphia. I struggle to see what you see in relation to the prophetess in Rev 2:22, but can understand how one from the rapture theory would want to interpret it that way.
You have yet to discuss 2 Thessallonians 2 specifically Paul's warning about "taught" "traditions" & "strong delusion" regarding historical view vs the new view. Which was the theme & topic of my response to the OP. I've patiently responded to all you concerns as we have moved further away from my points & topic. I would like to ask you to kindly return back to my topic  I'm very curious how you reconcile Paul's warnings with the new view?
Prayerfully,
T

larry2 - I'm sorry, but I thought that's what we were talking about, and other that the topic I've been answering questions. 2 Thessalonians 2:1. "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, and in verse two; "The day of Christ is at hand." John wrote of it as the "Lord's Day" in Revelation 1:10. The Lord's Day will be when He takes His throne, and prior to that Jesus will gather those that will be with Him at that time. I can see I need to stay out of end times discussions. 

[p-nut]

djadzin

Is Dave Lueloff associated with the Grace Baptist Church in Roseville, CA?

Dave writes about the Second Coming as if it is one event when there is actually two phases to the Second Coming. The first phase is when Christ returns in grace to rapture the church and the second  phase he returns in judgment to punish sinners on earth. Of the Scriptures Dave quotes, a few apply to the rapture while others apply to when Christ returns in judgment after the Tribulation.

Scriptures he quotes for the rapture are: Titus 2:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; James 5:7. A few more are:

1 Thess 2:19
For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of out Lord Jesus when he comes

1 Pet 1:13
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1 Pet 4 13
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1 Pet 1 7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing [revelation] of Jesus Christ:

Scriptures he quotes for his coming in judgment are: Mt. 16:27; 24:30; Acts 1:10; Jude 1:14 and others.
A few more are:

Isa. 26:21
See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.

Lk 21:25-27
There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

2 thess 1:
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,..........

Notice the context is the church when he returns in grace, it is our "blessed hope

[AyandA]

I ask, do to Paul's warnings about the "traditions taught" & about the "strong delusion" which view should really be accepted? The historical one or the modern one? It may be important.

I am assuming all the posts above are from Christians. There are so many ideas being put forward here. If Christians squabble over the return of Christ, each giving their take on it then I suppose Jesus will never return.

So who is to decide; will God Return, or Jesus, or is it Christ?

These three are not the same.  One thing that I am sure of is in the New Testament when Jesus was asked about Heaven, he said...The Kingdom of God is here already, it is in your hearts.

So then some of us are waiting in vain.  I also read here many quotes from various ancient historians. I am glad because now I will quote another scripture and it states: The Disciples came to Jesus and they asked him when will you return. Jesus replied; IF I TELL YOU I WILL COME IN THE HEAVENS THE BIRDS WILL GET THERE FIRST. IF I TELL YOU I WILL COME OVER THE OCEAN THE FISH WILL GET THERE FIRST. No the Kingdom of Heaven is already here. It is in your Souls.

If I look around me there is no one who is ready yet, as this forum is one that is in disunity. A thousand ideas flow here, each ego posting his/her truth or understanding there of.

Delusion? How do we know that this right here is not a delusion. All this information used against man as disinformation.

So many religions, so many beliefs, each one stating I AM RIGHT.

I recall a verse stating; I WILL GIVE THEM A LIE THAT THEY MAY BE DECEIVED BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THE LIES.

God is Love. I understand those words just like a child would and I know this much, There is  no exclusivity under love. No wrath either.

The misunderstanding of the term. Christs return has been raging for millennia.

Paradise is a state, it is Ethereal, it can only be seen with the Soul, not with the eyes of men.
Yes we are nearing the end of the age, but even Christians will be surprised and lost.
I speak not of lost in Hell, NO.

Lost is a bigger word than Hell. Many forces on Earth having been playing with Time,
Delusion are everywhere and especially in print.

Think on these things

[blu]

I never cease to be amazed with how many Christians confuse Christ's return IN THE AIR to take His people home (when He does NOT set foot on the earth) with His return TO THE EARTH to set up His 1,000 year reign.

I'd like to know where you find a 1000 year rein on earth!

[rezar]

author=blu link=topic=40680.msg741159#msg741159 date=1262538741]

I never cease to be amazed with how many Christians confuse Christ's return IN THE AIR to take His people home (when He does NOT set foot on the earth) with His return TO THE EARTH to set up His 1,000 year reign.

I'd like to know where you find a 1000 year rein on earth!

Exactly. Rev.20:4-6 took place during the "thousand years" which prophetically had to do with rebuilding the tabernacle of David which had fallen down, through the Apostles.(Acts15)
Now the "thousand years" in Rev.20 is retrospective. Who is represented by the Angel which binds Satan? Christ said He had the keys to Death & Hades (Rev.1:18).

The "millennium" was from AD26-66.  Christ told the Apostles that in the regeneration (by the Holy Spirit) & the restoration of Israel, that they would prophetically sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. And that they did making NT law & bringing the gospel to the nations.

The verbs are all in the past tense. "And they lived and reigned with Christ for "a thousand years."  (Rev.20:4) The "first resurrection" was Christ. Those that had their part in the first resurrection were the firstfruits of the Holy Spirit. It also means that our salvation is sure. The "second death" was actually the 2nd time Israel broke covenant. The 2nd death had to do with Israel's covenants.
But note in Rev20:4, there is no "on earth"  They lived & reigned with Christ on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. We see the resulting representation of the 12 tribes of Israel noted by God in the New Jerusalem. He fulfilled the covenant to Israel. But the N.Jerusalem is where righteousness dwells. And it is the NT church & Christ's Book of Life, built on the foundation of the Apostles.(Rev.21:14)
This is the "city" Abraham was looking for- the one which had the foundations. (Heb.11:10).

The heavenly Mt. Zion- spiritual- in heaven & on earth.

Hoped that helped you some to understand the figurative & prophetic language behind the 1,000 yrs.

[Corbley]

author=blu link=topic=40680.msg741159#msg741159 date=1262538741]

I never cease to be amazed with how many Christians confuse Christ's return IN THE AIR to take His people home (when He does NOT set foot on the earth) with His return TO THE EARTH to set up His 1,000 year reign.

I'd like to know where you find a 1000 year rein on earth!

Exactly. Rev.20:4-6 took place during the "thousand years" which prophetically had to do with rebuilding the tabernacle of David which had fallen down, through the Apostles.(Acts15)
Now the "thousand years" in Rev.20 is retrospective. Who is represented by the Angel which binds Satan? Christ said He had the keys to Death & Hades (Rev.1:18).

The "millennium" was from AD26-66.  Christ told the Apostles that in the regeneration (by the Holy Spirit) & the restoration of Israel, that they would prophetically sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. And that they did making NT law & bringing the gospel to the nations.

The verbs are all in the past tense. "And they lived and reigned with Christ for "a thousand years."  (Rev.20:4) The "first resurrection" was Christ. Those that had their part in the first resurrection were the firstfruits of the Holy Spirit. It also means that our salvation is sure. The "second death" was actually the 2nd time Israel broke covenant. The 2nd death had to do with Israel's covenants.
But note in Rev20:4, there is no "on earth"  They lived & reigned with Christ on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. We see the resulting representation of the 12 tribes of Israel noted by God in the New Jerusalem. He fulfilled the covenant to Israel. But the N.Jerusalem is where righteousness dwells. And it is the NT church & Christ's Book of Life, built on the foundation of the Apostles.(Rev.21:14)
This is the "city" Abraham was looking for- the one which had the foundations. (Heb.11:10).

The heavenly Mt. Zion- spiritual- in heaven & on earth.

Hoped that helped you some to understand the figurative & prophetic language behind the 1,000 yrs.

give it up Rezar!   you are doing the work of Satan by spreading these lies....
If Christ had reigned on earth there would have been a peace throughout the world
NEVER HAPPENED (yet)
Too many unfullfilled prophecies at that time and I have challanged youtime and again to explain some of them...you always dodge the questions  (because you have no answer)
My guess is you read this theory of some "bible expert" and believed it....Now you ride on a tall horse named "pride" and scoth at any view that does not fall in line with your own.

Put aside what you think you know and look at the signs of the times...they are there  if you open your eyes and heart