Is the Pope the Father Vicar?

[banished]

We are having a study about praying to Mary in the "General Discussion Forum" and Debbie_55 brought up a good point about calling the Pope "visar and father".  How do Catholics explain (Matthew 23:9)?



(Mat 23:9)  "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. "

[Ryan2010]

While I'm not Roman Catholic and disagree with their stance on the reach and extent of the successors of St. Peter's authority, the "father" stuff (not touching the Vicar deal, that's strictly RC) is a term used to connote pastoral care. 

Here Paul is likening himself to a father?  Or is he saying that he has become a father (with a little F)?  If it's just "like" a father then it's no real offense to call one's pastor, "father" because it's "like" and if it's literal as a title, as in Paul actually calls himself a father, we have to synthesize it and understand that by no way is Paul saying that he is THE Father but "a" father of the church.  Again, any group that uses the title, "Father" for their pastors aren't in offense.  For anyone to argue against this as a title or simply advocate it as a, "like" will just wind up having to synthesize scripture and will find they can't really find a grounds for biblical refutation against Christian communities that call their pastors, Father. 

Plus I don't think that Jesus was just setting up an arbitary legalistic rule like, "rule number 7.) call no man Father".  Not the Jesus we read about in the bible anyway.  He must have been saying something else... 



1 Corinthians 4:15
Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.


If we take an over-literal interpretation of, "call no man father" then honor thy mother and father only means to honor your biological mother and then God, the Father.  Neither can we call a country's forefathers, fathers etc. 

Again, all this boils down to what the individual person "seems" to think the bible means to say and if they're wrong, they'll find that they will have subjected the scriptures to their private interpretation and gathered like-minded folks around them. 

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

[Selene]

We are having a study about praying to Mary in the "General Discussion Forum" and Debbie_55 brought up a good point about calling the Pope "visar and father".  How do Catholics explain (Matthew 23:9)?



(Mat 23:9)  "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. "

The Catholic explaination is found in the following website.  It explains everything. 

http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp

[Hehealedme]

.

[Selene]

Your explanation isn't quite sufficient...here is more from this website:
http://www.gotquestions.org/vicar-of-Christ.html

[/quote]



My brother, your answer is not even Catholic.  If you look at the original post, it is asking Catholics what their explainations are on the topic.  The original post is asking CATHOLICS their explaination.  You are certainly NOT Catholic, so why are you speaking for us?     Regarding the "vicar of Christ," below is the Catholic's explaination.  

http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Vicar_of_Christ

[Hehealedme]

.

[Selene]

The Bible says of Jesus that there is no other name by which men can be saved (Acts 4:12). There is only one mediator between God and men, and that is Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). We can now see that there is no Biblical foundation for claiming to be a representative of Christ on earth. No man could do what Christ has done, or what Christ is now doing on behalf of humankind. But the title of vicar also carries with it another implication: the bearer has the same jurisdictional power of the official he represents. In Matthew 16:18, Jesus Christ is the one who says He will build His church, He never delegates this power. By claiming the title of Vicar of Christ, the reigning pope is, in fact, promising to do what Christ promised

My sister, it is already so obvious in here that you are going against the Bible.  According to your statement above, you stated that "He (Jesus Christ) never delegates this power."  My sister, Jesus has delegated His power to mere mortal men.  Didn't you know that the Apostles with God's power, they were able to heal the sick(Acts 28:8)  cast out demons (Acts 19:12) and even had the power to forgive sins (John 20:21-23).  If God can delegate these powers to mere men, then he can delegate authority to a man to take care of His sheep.  Jesus DID indeed tell the Apostle Peter and ONLY the Apostle Peter to take care of His flock (See John 21:16-20).   And the Apostle Peter was a mere mortal man.

[Selene]

First of all, mind you, I am a sister, not a brother...never mind, I will fix this in a minute

Second, I was baptised Catholic as an infant...which by the way means absolutely nothing to me since my parents made that choice for me...by the way, I made that same dumb mistake when my daughter and son were infants...(as a side note, I had my son baptised a few hours before he died by a so-called man of God priest who told me that my son would go to hell if he wasn't baptised on time)...

And third, the Catholic's explanation makes no sense at all so I gave you a much better one...

The fact that you are NOT a Catholic still does not make you speak for us who are Catholics.  I suggest that when a poster asks for Catholics to give their explaination, then you allow the Catholics to do so and not speak for us.  However, you can speak for whatever religion you converted to.  Also, see my reply above this one and it willl explain why your better answer is in error.   

[Hehealedme]

.

[Selene]

Oh no I am not going against the Bible...although it is true that the Apostles were able to heal the sick, cast out demons and forgive sins BUT they couldn't SAVE the people by giving them eternal life, only Jesus can do that...

And the Catholic Church NEVER claimed that the Apostles can save people by giving them eternal life.  We have also NEVER claimed that the Pope can save people by giving them eternal life.  This is why I said that you should not speak for us Catholics.  Nowhere in any of the Catechesm of the Catholic Church did it ever say that the Pope can give eternal life.  According to the Catholic website I posted, the title "Vicar of Christ" is a title given to someone who is the "guardian of the flock."  The Apostle Peter would be considered a "Vicar of Christ" because Christ gave him the authority to take care of His flock (See John 21:16-23).   

[Bon Voyage]

Oh no I am not going against the Bible...although it is true that the Apostles were able to heal the sick, cast out demons and forgive sins BUT they couldn't SAVE the people by giving them eternal life, only Jesus can do that...

And the Catholic Church NEVER claimed that the Apostles can save people by giving them eternal life.  We have also NEVER claimed that the Pope can save people by giving them eternal life.  This is why I said that you should not speak for us Catholics.  Nowhere in any of the Catechesm of the Catholic Church did it ever say that the Pope can give eternal life.  According to the Catholic website I posted, the title "Vicar of Christ" is a title given to someone who is the "guardian of the flock."  The Apostle Peter would be considered a "Vicar of Christ" because Christ gave him the authority to take care of His flock (See John 21:16-23).   

And the elders of my congregation are "vicars of Christ" because as elders, they are guardians of the local flock.

[BigDanR]

There is only one true church.  The COC. 

[Bon Voyage]

There is only one true church.  The COC. 

The one that started four years after pentecost in AD 33?  Nope. 

The church that Jesus died for, the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE aka Bible Church is that church.

[Selene]

And the elders of my congregation are "vicars of Christ" because as elders, they are guardians of the local flock.

This makes me then wonder.....why all the commotion about Catholics calling the Pope the "Vicar of Christ."  If you can call your elders the "vicars of Christ," why does it become a debate when Catholics give the Pope the title "Vicar of Christ?" 

[farouk]

Ephesians 1 has the answer.

[Selene]

Ephesians 1 has the answer.

I don't understand what you mean.  Could you be more specific?  Could you explain in your own words? 

[mclees8]

Ephesians 1 has the answer.

I don't understand what you mean.  Could you be more specific?  Could you explain in your own words? 

Mike and just Mike
Well I don't know about Eph 1 but if I may comment and at the risk of being mundane. I have a problem with titles. And I believe that Jesus was calling attention to the Pharisees, that his church would not be like minded. Also the question comes to me, is the pope the vicar or a vicar?  Have we made him in a sense God upon the earth in the visual sense. I have a reason for that idea. 

I think Matt 23 has the answer. And it centers on pride and ambition. I think the point Jesus was making was quite clear. He cited two things. The outward appearance of being religious so that everyone could see them as that, and the other was titles that called attention to one position or rank. What was Jesus concerned about in this. Do we not see both of these issues evident in the RCC magisterial. I see the separating and exalting of clergy  above  congregation. If we read the New Testament we see a quite different picture of authority. Jesus had not praise for the outward appearance of religion, pride of rank and position 

So why does the RCC magisterial put on robes of rank. And titles of position. Jesus said they like to be seen of men. But I think some thing else is here also. Not just to be visible but a carnal need and desire of  the people also,  and I will rephrase  this as the world, to have earthly authority that is visible. Everything I speak of here comes from the carnal mind. It is of the world. They want the authority to look the part. Just think and it did happen once the pope going out in public wearing common clothes. See I don't think we understand what Jesus was getting at. If Jesus wanted this this kind of carnal visibility then why do we see him as common in his earthly appearance. And we would see him as that way if we were paying attention to what he was scolding the Pharisees for.

Do not look to the earthly things but to the heavenly things. Why did Jesus have to return to the father to sit on a heavenly throne? Why could not have taken up Satins tempt to be god upon the earth. Think about that and I will post again. Think about God upon the earth and what will the antichrist be in his mind, and not only in his ambition but also the desire of  men to have God upon earth.  And what happened in the garden. What was the difference from the old and New covenant relationship with God ? Why was that necessary ?

.   God bless

[Rob, PGK]

I think the important thing isn't what we call the Pope, it's what the Pope calls himself. He has many titles because he holds many offices within, not only the Church, but the City State of The Vatican.

-His Holiness The Pope - Pope means Father and he is a Holy man, so this one is easy.

- Bishop Of Rome And Vicar Of Jesus Christ - As Bishop of Rome he has Primacy over all other Bishops, hence the addition of Vicar of Christ. It is just a title showing who is in charge of the Church on a worldly level.

- Successor Of St. Peter, Prince Of The Apostles - Self explanatory.

- Supreme Pontiff Of The Universal Church - Another repetitive title.

- Patriarch Of The West - Man do we Catholics love repetition.

- Primate Of Italy - Indicates that the Bishop of Rome is "first among equals" among the bishops of Italy.

- Archbishop And Metropolitan Of The Roman Province - Bureaucratic title explaining what area he has leadership responsibilities for in one of his many roles.

- Sovereign Of Vatican City State - President of a country.

But the one that the Pope uses the most, the one that he himself chooses as the one that is the most important is-

Servant of the Servants of God.

[mclees8]

I think the important thing isn't what we call the Pope, it's what the Pope calls himself. He has many titles because he holds many offices within, not only the Church, but the City State of The Vatican.

-His Holiness The Pope - Pope means Father and he is a Holy man, so this one is easy.

- Bishop Of Rome And Vicar Of Jesus Christ - As Bishop of Rome he has Primacy over all other Bishops, hence the addition of Vicar of Christ. It is just a title showing who is in charge of the Church on a worldly level.

- Successor Of St. Peter, Prince Of The Apostles - Self explanatory.

- Supreme Pontiff Of The Universal Church - Another repetitive title.

- Patriarch Of The West - Man do we Catholics love repetition.

- Primate Of Italy - Indicates that the Bishop of Rome is "first among equals" among the bishops of Italy.

- Archbishop And Metropolitan Of The Roman Province - Bureaucratic title explaining what area he has leadership responsibilities for in one of his many roles.

- Sovereign Of Vatican City State - President of a country.

But the one that the Pope uses the most, the one that he himself chooses as the one that is the most important is-

Servant of the Servants of God.

Have you prayed and contemplated my statement before posting this? I would read it carefully. What was the point behind what Jesus saying about the pharisees ? 
The issue  was more than just titles. the issue is pride of position and the need for being visible in all that they do which is carnal from their Robes to even ritual. who does it impress? men or God ?




God bless

[Rob, PGK]

I think the important thing isn't what we call the Pope, it's what the Pope calls himself. He has many titles because he holds many offices within, not only the Church, but the City State of The Vatican.

-His Holiness The Pope - Pope means Father and he is a Holy man, so this one is easy.

- Bishop Of Rome And Vicar Of Jesus Christ - As Bishop of Rome he has Primacy over all other Bishops, hence the addition of Vicar of Christ. It is just a title showing who is in charge of the Church on a worldly level.

- Successor Of St. Peter, Prince Of The Apostles - Self explanatory.

- Supreme Pontiff Of The Universal Church - Another repetitive title.

- Patriarch Of The West - Man do we Catholics love repetition.

- Primate Of Italy - Indicates that the Bishop of Rome is "first among equals" among the bishops of Italy.

- Archbishop And Metropolitan Of The Roman Province - Bureaucratic title explaining what area he has leadership responsibilities for in one of his many roles.

- Sovereign Of Vatican City State - President of a country.

But the one that the Pope uses the most, the one that he himself chooses as the one that is the most important is-

Servant of the Servants of God.

Have you prayed and contemplated my statement before posting this? I would read it carefully. What was the point behind what Jesus saying about the pharisees ? 
The issue  was more than just titles. the issue is pride of position and the need for being visible in all that they do which is carnal from their Robes to even ritual. who does it impress? men or God ?




God bless

Let me ask you this question. Why, if the Catholic Church is going to go against the scriptures that you are quoting, would they have allowed those scriptures into the Bible when they put the book together?

Think of this and then consider the possibility that your logic is the one that is flawed. I'm not saying that it is, just to consider the possibility.

[mclees8]

I think the important thing isn't what we call the Pope, it's what the Pope calls himself. He has many titles because he holds many offices within, not only the Church, but the City State of The Vatican.

-His Holiness The Pope - Pope means Father and he is a Holy man, so this one is easy.

- Bishop Of Rome And Vicar Of Jesus Christ - As Bishop of Rome he has Primacy over all other Bishops, hence the addition of Vicar of Christ. It is just a title showing who is in charge of the Church on a worldly level.

- Successor Of St. Peter, Prince Of The Apostles - Self explanatory.

- Supreme Pontiff Of The Universal Church - Another repetitive title.

- Patriarch Of The West - Man do we Catholics love repetition.

- Primate Of Italy - Indicates that the Bishop of Rome is "first among equals" among the bishops of Italy.

- Archbishop And Metropolitan Of The Roman Province - Bureaucratic title explaining what area he has leadership responsibilities for in one of his many roles.

- Sovereign Of Vatican City State - President of a country.

But the one that the Pope uses the most, the one that he himself chooses as the one that is the most important is-

Servant of the Servants of God.

Have you prayed and contemplated my statement before posting this? I would read it carefully. What was the point behind what Jesus saying about the pharisees ? 
The issue  was more than just titles. the issue is pride of position and the need for being visible in all that they do which is carnal from their Robes to even ritual. who does it impress? men or God ?




God bless

Let me ask you this question. Why, if the Catholic Church is going to go against the scriptures that you are quoting, would they have allowed those scriptures into the Bible when they put the book together?

Think of this and then consider the possibility that your logic is the one that is flawed. I'm not saying that it is, just to consider the possibility.

No I don't think its flawed at all. There may be more here than you know. One is the reason that the rcc put on the robes in the first place. When Constantine excepted the Christian religion certain bishops of Rome wanted to be the supreme pontif of all Christiandom. in fact they wanted it so bad that they forged certain letters saying that Constantine gave it to them as a gift. It was called the Donations of Constantine and you will find it in your catholic encyclopedea.  Even so they were able secure thhe position which caused the split of the west

Now here they are with the power of Rome. Please note that the Bible was not in print and was not in the hands of the people.   Now they needed to be a visible authority and since the people were ignorant of scripture it was easy for them and for them necessary to look the part. thus you see the popes on thrones and fancy hats and Robes. But what was behind it. It was all about vain glory. They just ignored that part of scripture.   

[jessie70]

in following all the things in the old testament...does that mean they dont believe the law is abolished?  isnt everything  down to the robes..titles and everything dealing with the law in the old testament? I dont remember Christ calling himself a priest.  christ didnt keep this going in teaching when he came upon the earth as a teacher.

in the law it says..an eye for an eye.......but Christ himself shows again the law is abolished by saying........"you have heard an eye for an eye. but I say love thy neighbor".

If the law was supposed to be kept around today..why did Christ change it himself?

it even states in setting up churches about (i think) a decon being a man of just one wife.
but in the law it lets them have many wives and concubines. i wont go into what it says about laying with a concubine...as we are supposed to be one in flesh with God and Christ.

[farouk]

Hebrews chapter 5:

[1]"For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
[2] Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
[3] And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
[4] And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
[5] So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
[6] As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
[7] Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
[8] Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
[9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
[10] Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec."

[Jimbob]

No, the pope is not a member of Virgin Islands Search and Rescue (VISAR).   





(j/k, I'll fix it.)

[Selene]

No I don't think its flawed at all. There may be more here than you know. One is the reason that the rcc put on the robes in the first place. When Constantine excepted the Christian religion certain bishops of Rome wanted to be the supreme pontif of all Christiandom. in fact they wanted it so bad that they forged certain letters saying that Constantine gave it to them as a gift. It was called the Donations of Constantine and you will find it in your catholic encyclopedea.  Even so they were able secure thhe position which caused the split of the west

Could you provide a link to this Catholic encyclopedia that says the Catholic Church forged letters saying that Constantine gave it to them as a gift? 

Now here they are with the power of Rome. Please note that the Bible was not in print and was not in the hands of the people.   Now they needed to be a visible authority and since the people were ignorant of scripture it was easy for them and for them necessary to look the part. thus you see the popes on thrones and fancy hats and Robes. But what was behind it. It was all about vain glory. They just ignored that part of scripture.

Fancy robes and hats?  Do you think that God is going to judge people by what they wear?  Did Scripture tell you that you must dress a certain way?  Show me the Scripture in the Bible that says what we should wear?  I don't think the Apostles were wearing an expensive suit and tie.  Do you think that we should dress the way the Apostles did 2000 years ago?  Didn't the Apostles wear long robes with a rope tied around their waist? 

[banished]

I think the important thing isn't what we call the Pope, it's what the Pope calls himself. He has many titles because he holds many offices within, not only the Church, but the City State of The Vatican.

-His Holiness The Pope - Pope means Father and he is a Holy man, so this one is easy.

- Bishop Of Rome And Vicar Of Jesus Christ - As Bishop of Rome he has Primacy over all other Bishops, hence the addition of Vicar of Christ. It is just a title showing who is in charge of the Church on a worldly level.

- Successor Of St. Peter, Prince Of The Apostles - Self explanatory.

- Supreme Pontiff Of The Universal Church - Another repetitive title.

- Patriarch Of The West - Man do we Catholics love repetition.

- Primate Of Italy - Indicates that the Bishop of Rome is "first among equals" among the bishops of Italy.

- Archbishop And Metropolitan Of The Roman Province - Bureaucratic title explaining what area he has leadership responsibilities for in one of his many roles.

- Sovereign Of Vatican City State - President of a country.

But the one that the Pope uses the most, the one that he himself chooses as the one that is the most important is-

Servant of the Servants of God.

Have you prayed and contemplated my statement before posting this? I would read it carefully. What was the point behind what Jesus saying about the pharisees ? 
The issue  was more than just titles. the issue is pride of position and the need for being visible in all that they do which is carnal from their Robes to even ritual. who does it impress? men or God ?




God bless

mclees8,

The Pharisees were following the law to the letter, and that included the dress code in the Talmud. The Pharisees were doing exactly what God commanded them to to.

Jesus also was a Jew and kept the Passover and Sabbath which both included following the Talmud seder service.  Jesus can not be pulled out from the Talmud seder service, and used to undermine the Catholics for being a continuation of the covenants in the Talmud and Torah.

The way I look at it: Jesus only added more faith to the covetant that already existed with God the Father. Jesus is the servant of God the Father.   

[mclees8]

No I don't think its flawed at all. There may be more here than you know. One is the reason that the rcc put on the robes in the first place. When Constantine excepted the Christian religion certain bishops of Rome wanted to be the supreme pontif of all Christiandom. in fact they wanted it so bad that they forged certain letters saying that Constantine gave it to them as a gift. It was called the Donations of Constantine and you will find it in your catholic encyclopedea.  Even so they were able secure thhe position which caused the split of the west

Could you provide a link to this Catholic encyclopedia that says the Catholic Church forged letters saying that Constantine gave it to them as a gift? 

Mike

Now here they are with the power of Rome. Please note that the Bible was not in print and was not in the hands of the people.   Now they needed to be a visible authority and since the people were ignorant of scripture it was easy for them and for them necessary to look the part. thus you see the popes on thrones and fancy hats and Robes. But what was behind it. It was all about vain glory. They just ignored that part of scripture.

Fancy robes and hats?  Do you think that God is going to judge people by what they wear?  Did Scripture tell you that you must dress a certain way?  Show me the Scripture in the Bible that says what we should wear?  I don't think the Apostles were wearing an expensive suit and tie.  Do you think that we should dress the way the Apostles did 2000 years ago?  Didn't the Apostles wear long robes with a rope tied around their waist? 

quote author=Selene link=topic=41254.msg747689#msg747689 date=1263502780]

No I don't think its flawed at all. There may be more here than you know. One is the reason that the rcc put on the robes in the first place. When Constantine excepted the Christian religion certain bishops of Rome wanted to be the supreme pontif of all Christiandom. in fact they wanted it so bad that they forged certain letters saying that Constantine gave it to them as a gift. It was called the Donations of Constantine and you will find it in your catholic encyclopedea.  Even so they were able secure the position which caused the split of the west

Selene
Could you provide a link to this Catholic encyclopedia that says the Catholic Church forged letters saying that Constantine gave it to them as a gift? 

Mike
I never learned how to post hyperlinks but you can Google " Donations of Constantine

[blituri]

I heard a well known "father" make a distinction betwee Catholic and Christian.  How can a nation be 90% Catholic and about 60% illiterate?

The Name of the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ the Righteous: He is still alive and as the ONLY mediator or intercessor:

ALL of the apostles were given the power to bind and loose: they all used the KEY on the day of Pentecost. Only those who were able to believe, repent and be Baptized for the remission of sins received A holy spirit and were aded to the church by Christ.  For many centuries before there was a pope (which the other bishops disputed) the church was known as The Church of Christ.

The POOR priests were POOR and did not have a throne. They went out and set up schools and churches.

Is. 59:13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD,
        and departing away from our God,
        speaking oppression and revolt,
        conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
Is. 59:14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off:
        for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
Is. 59:15 Yea, truth faileth;
        and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey:
        and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

Is. 59:16 And he saw that there was no man,
        and wondered that there was no intercessor:
        therefore his arm brought salvation unto him;
        and his righteousness, it sustained him.

Is. 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate,
        and an helmet of salvation upon his head;
        and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing,
        and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
Is. 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay,
        fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
Is. 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
Is. 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion,
        and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Is. 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD;
        My spirit that is upon thee,
        and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
        shall not depart out of thy mouth,
        nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
        nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed,
        saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Peter said that the MEMORY he and others were supplying was NOT subject to private interpretation. That means FURTHER EXPOUNDING.  No one can pretend to be Christ and ADD to the Word: that would repudiate Christ and not defend Him.

The Church of Christ which may have evaporated in these last days is defined as a SCHOOL of the Bible as noted above.  It has NO role to play but to teach that which has been taught.

Apostolic succession defined the elders or presbyters: One elder has the sole duty of teaching the Word of God and make sure that HE passes it on to the next generation in line making sure that NOTHING has been added to or taken away from the Word.  People spend their lives making sure that one copy did not include any changes.

Being APOSTOLIC always meant that a church is based upon the foundation LAID by the prophets and apostles with Christ Jesus the CORNER STONE.

Jesus Christ does NOT need a VICAR: that would utterly deny that the KINGDOM is within you and no one can point ot a headquarters, president, address, telephone number or e-mail.

Paul said that he was made an apostle AFTER APOSTLE SEASON.  That would be like shooting a deer out of deer season.  He said that he was the LAST and LEAST and was an apostle only because Jesus of Nazareth APPEARED to him and SPOKE to Him.

[blituri]

[Selene]

Mike,

I found the Catholic Encyclopedia you mentioned, and I will provide the weblink below so anyone can see that there is nothing in there that you claimed. 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05118a.htm 

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia on the "Donations of Constantine": 

(Latin, Donatio Constantini).
By this name is understood, since the end of the Middle Ages, a forged document of Emperor Constantine the Great, by which large privileges and rich possessions were conferred on the pope and the Roman Church.
 

Mike, the Catholic Encyclopedia is saying that the Donations of Constantine is a forgery. 

Mike
Its not what they wear Selene but the reasons behind it which was what I posted about earlier in the thread. Jesus does not judge what we wearing but what you wear does say something.  You might try reading it again. Its all about the outward appearances of being religious.  It may look good to men but it will never impress God. I think I made it clear and also gave several questions to ponder. If you can't see it now then i doubt I can make it clearer for you. Jesus was putting the finger on something and he did not mention those things for nothing.   You need to read and ask the question why?

And how do you know the reason why they wore it, Mike?  How do you know what's in a person's heart?  Are you God that you can actually know the reason a person is wearing certain clothes?  If I decided to wear a tank top and shorts with a bathing suit underneath, what does that tell you?  Can you be sure that the reason I wore a tank top and shorts with a bathing suit underneath indicate that I am going to the beach?  I can tell you right now that I wore a tank top and shorts with a bathing suit underneath because I had a carwash fundraiser to do yesterday.  I didn't go to the beach.  But how can you indicate the difference?  That is the point.  So, why do you judge?

[ex cathedra]

We are having a study about praying to Mary in the "General Discussion Forum" and Debbie_55 brought up a good point about calling the Pope "visar and father".  How do Catholics explain (Matthew 23:9)?



(Mat 23:9)  "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. "

First of all, mind you, I am a sister, not a brother...never mind, I will fix this in a minute

Second, I was baptised Catholic as an infant...which by the way means absolutely nothing to me since my parents made that choice for me...by the way, I made that same dumb mistake when my daughter and son were infants...(as a side note, I had my son baptised a few hours before he died by a so-called man of God priest who told me that my son would go to hell if he wasn't baptised on time)...

And third, the Catholic's explanation makes no sense at all so I gave you a much better one...

So because a catholic priest baptized you its worthless . Then a convert to the catholic church could say the same thing .
since a baptist baptized me its worthless.

Gods institution of baptism than would simply mean ---man is greater than God  after all.

How perverse that would be.

does gold  still remains Gold be a harlot or virgin wears it?

so to with baptism so stop playing the part of a harlot .

and realize BAPTISM WORTH BECAUSE CHRIST HIMSELF  INSTITUTED IT.

AND WHAT CHRIST HAS INSTITUTED HE HIMSELF UPHOLDS.

[mclees8]

Selene
Mike, the Catholic Encyclopedia is saying that the Donations of Constantine is a forgery. 

Mike
Yes Selene they were forgeries used by the Bishops of Rome in 500AD to become supreme pope of Christendom. The papacy was born from a lie. Power was what they wanted. I am going to re-post the history lesson separately sense you must have missed it the last time.

Mike
Its not what they wear Selene but the reasons behind it which was what I posted about earlier in the thread. Jesus does not judge what we wearing but what you wear does say something.  You might try reading it again. Its all about the outward appearances of being religious.  It may look good to men but it will never impress God. I think I made it clear and also gave several questions to ponder. If you can't see it now then i doubt I can make it clearer for you. Jesus was putting the finger on something and he did not mention those things for nothing.   You need to read and ask the question why?

Selene
And how do you know the reason why they wore it, Mike?  How do you know what's in a person's heart?  Are you God that you can actually know the reason a person is wearing certain clothes?  If I decided to wear a tank top and shorts with a bathing suit underneath, what does that tell you?  Can you be sure that the reason I wore a tank top and shorts with a bathing suit underneath indicate that I am going to the beach?  I can tell you right now that I wore a tank top and shorts with a bathing suit underneath because I had a carwash fundraiser to do yesterday.  I didn't go to the beach.  But how can you indicate the difference?  That is the point.  So, why do you judge?


Mike
Really now Selene Its not hard to figure. Do not kings and monarchs sit on thrones with royal robes? What would you do if you  were just made the pope of Christianity with the power of Rome. Could you just remain common?

The Robes and throne are symbols of power and authority. Surely you know that.  But where there is Government there is also corruption. Its not supposed to be that way but it is that way. But Christ cannot be glorified in worldly corruption, greed, and  self seeking ambitions of men.  This is why we must Worship Him in spirit for the things of the Spirit glorify Christ and there is no earthly corruption.

I know you will argue that no one is perfect not even the pope. But lieing for gain and vain glory is not just a simple human weakness. It goes against Gods commandments. How much more so for those who want to sit next to Jesus.

When you went to the car wash you were still just being common for the work. You didn't ware a crown for Miss America did you?

God bless

[mclees8]

The Fraudulent Papacy -

A History Lesson The Fallacy of Catholicism's Papacy, Part II JOHN SCHROEDER Contender Ministries Posted: September 5, 2003 As a 4-year-old child in a family of devout Roman Catholics, I could recite by heart Matthew 16:18 and 19 long before I could read or write. On cue, when prompted by parent or sibling, I would emote as follows: "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and what- soever thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[Selene]

Mike
Really now Selene Its not hard to figure. Do not kings and monarchs sit on thrones with royal robes? What would you do if you  were just made the pope of Christianity with the power of Rome. Could you just remain common?

The Robes and throne are symbols of power and authority. Surely you know that.  But where there is Government there is also corruption. Its not supposed to be that way but it is that way. But Christ cannot be glorified in worldly corruption, greed, and  self seeking ambitions of men.  This is why we must Worship Him in spirit for the things of the Spirit glorify Christ and there is no earthly corruption.

I know you will argue that no one is perfect not even the pope. But lieing for gain and vain glory is not just a simple human weakness. It goes against Gods commandments. How much more so for those who want to sit next to Jesus.

When you went to the car wash you were still just being common for the work. You didn't ware a crown for Miss America did you?

God bless

Mike, the Catholic Church is a king.  It is a governing nation just as God promised us.  He promised a group of slaves that they will also become a nation, and they did.  Israel became a govening nation.  However, the most powerful country right now is not Vatican City.  The United States is the strongest country.  Haven't you notice the UN relying more on the US for peace-keeping and for keeping other nations in line?

[Hehealedme]

.