Revelation's symbolic language

[DaveW]

But we must remember those people are NOT JEWS. The Jews are only of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. While all Jews are Israelis, not all Israelis are Jews.

Actually, the term "Jew" has applied to all 12 tribes since the first century bc if not earlier.  There are mentions in rabbinic literature of a small number of the other northern tribes finding their way back to the Land since the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.  They are ALL referred to as Jews.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Because it HASN'T. Modern Israel is JEWISH; none of them claim to be of any other tribe but Judah, Levi, or Benjamin.

Once upon a time, the Samaritans took up Jewish customs and religion, and began to identified themselves as Jewish.  But, it didn't make them Jewish.  The Bible rejects them as Jews, and so did the actual Jews.

Once upon a time, the Idumeans were all forcibly converted to Judaism.  Over time, they embraced their new religion, and began to identify themselves as Jewish.  But again, they weren't really.

Nowadays, we have a group of European people imported back into the historical lands of Israel, who identify themselves as Jews and Israelis.  Most of them don't practice the Jewish religion, or Christianity, or anything else.  Are they Jews?  Really?

[robycop3]

Once upon a time, the Samaritans took up Jewish customs and religion, and began to identified themselves as Jewish.  But, it didn't make them Jewish.  The Bible rejects them as Jews, and so did the actual Jews.

Once upon a time, the Idumeans were all forcibly converted to Judaism.  Over time, they embraced their new religion, and began to identify themselves as Jewish.  But again, they weren't really.

Nowadays, we have a group of European people imported back into the historical lands of Israel, who identify themselves as Jews and Israelis.  Most of them don't practice the Jewish religion, or Christianity, or anything else.  Are they Jews?  Really?

  Given that most of them can trace their lines back to Roman times, and, given the history of the persecution they underwent, which culminated in the nazi holocaust, I believe they're really Jews. Now, many of them are of mixed ancestry, with their forebears being married into other peoples, but enough Jewishness remains in them to identify them as Jews. God certainly hasn't discarded Israel for good !

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

  Given that most of them can trace their lines back to Roman times, and, given the history of the persecution they underwent, which culminated in the nazi holocaust, I believe they're really Jews. Now, many of them are of mixed ancestry, with their forebears being married into other peoples, but enough Jewishness remains in them to identify them as Jews. God certainly hasn't discarded Israel for good !

Of course YOU do.

Anybody who actually reads the posts want to side with roby?

[DaveW]

Wy - you do not understand what it means to be a Jew.  A converted Jew is as much Jewish as a native born Jew. The only reason the Samaritans were not considered Jewish was their continued use of pagan idol worship.  When Ezra and Nehemiah came back from Babylon, most of the Jews left in the land had married foreign wives (with their idol worship) so they had to go.  So all this stuff about lineage is just fluff and smokescreen.

Tracing lines back is ONLY important for the kohanim (priests).

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Tracing lines back is ONLY important for the kohanim (priests).

Tracing lines back isn't important for the kohanim either, since that priesthood was annulled almost 2 millennia ago.

Also, check your PMs.

[DaveW]

Tracing lines back isn't important for the kohanim either, since that priesthood was annulled almost 2 millennia ago.

I know of no traditional religious Jew that believes that. 

I have known several kohenim and Levites that have read up on what they will need to do if/when the Temple is rebuilt.  There is a group called the Temple Mount Faithful who have all the ritual articles for the temple ready to go when it is rebuilt.

Also, check your PMs.

I did.  I do not know, but your avatar suggests Scottish or Irish.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

I know of no traditional religious Jew that believes that.

Practicing traditional rabbinical Judaism is not what we have been talking about.  Also, it's not a very good criteria for determining who is Jewish, which IS what we have been talking about.

I have known several kohenim and Levites that have read up on what they will need to do if/when the Temple is rebuilt.  There is a group called the Temple Mount Faithful who have all the ritual articles for the temple ready to go when it is rebuilt.

I'm aware of this, and I find it to be mis-guided.  A return to animal sacrifices is not something most Jewish people would embrace.  Even/especially the orthodox.  Did you miss the part of Judaism where the synagogue overtook the temple?  That had happened even before the 1st century.

I have known several kohenim...

Me too.  I have lunch with a bunch of them on a regular basis.  At my house, we call that "lunch with the family." 

I think I might "understand what it means to be a Jew" a little, Dave. 

[DaveW]

Practicing traditional rabbinical Judaism is not what we have been talking about.  Also, it's not a very good criteria for determining who is Jewish, which IS what we have been talking about.

Traditional Jews have EVERY RIGHT to determine who is and who is NOT a Jew.  And yes, I have been talking about traditional Judaism.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Traditional Jews have EVERY RIGHT to determine who is and who is NOT a Jew.  And yes, I have been talking about traditional Judaism.

The Jewish criteria for determining Jewishness does not involve the practice of any religion.  Most Jews today fall on the scale somewhere between atheists and deists.  Those following rabbinical thought are a shrinking minority.

Why are YOU using THAT as a criteria when even Jews don't? 

And don't tell me you got it from Christianity.  The Bible explicitly tells us to ignore genealogies, and to determine ancestry by looking at behavior.

Jarrod

[robycop3]

The Jewish criteria for determining Jewishness does not involve the practice of any religion.  Most Jews today fall on the scale somewhere between atheists and deists.  Those following rabbinical thought are a shrinking minority.

Why are YOU using THAT as a criteria when even Jews don't? 

And don't tell me you got it from Christianity.  The Bible explicitly tells us to ignore genealogies, and to determine ancestry by looking at behavior.

Jarrod

  A Jew is a Jew by ancestry. yes, I'm awaye of SPIRITUAL Israel, but God is not through with LITERAL Israel.  And remember, the names of the 12 tribes of Israel will be on the foundation of the New Jerusalem.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

A Jew is a Jew by ancestry.

How do you figure to reckon it, though?

The rabbis follow matriarchal bloodlines - i.e. if you're mom's Jewish, you're Jewish.  They have done so since roughly the beginning of the 2nd century.  But for the entire Old Testament period, bloodlines were patriarchal - determined by the father.

Why did they make that change?  It's because patriarchal bloodlines are UNRELIABLE.  You can always tell who the baby's mother is.  Unfortunately, the same can't be said about fathers.  For the Jews, whose history includes centuries of engaging in fertility cults, as well as being deported from their country in antiquity, those patriarchal genealogies are absolutely useless.  They are corrupt even from before the times of the earliest ones.  And consider the northern kingdom... they were slaughtered wholesale and the remnants dispersed to the four corners of the world.  They don't even HAVE genealogies, though they certainly have descendants.

The Jews of the New Testament period knew this.  They debated about it.  We still have records of the positions taken by Hillel and Shammai with regards to solving the problem.  Eventually, the debate was settled and the Jews changed to matriarchal lines.

But that solution does NOTHING to address the problem retroactively.  You still have centuries and centuries of unreliable paternity that you're trying to build on.  Plus, you have thousands or millions or people who are genuinely Israelite descendants, but don't even know it, having lost their cultural identity.

There was another position suggested by a rabbi during that time period, but Judaism ultimately did not adopt that position.  That position was that the true paternity of Jews (and even lost Israelites!) could be determined by observing their behavior.  Those who kept the law were Abraham's true descendants.  What rabbi who taught such a thing?  Jesus of Nazareth.

You see, what you call "spiritual Israel" was not spiritual at all to them in the 1st century.  It was a practical, pragmatic approach to solving the question of "who is a Jew?"

Jarrod

[3 Resurrections]

Hmmm, I was just skimming over this post again from a while back and just noticed something that robycop3 said in comment #185 that is totally bogus.

He wrote that the names of the 12 TRIBES are on the foundation of the New Jerusalem.  That's wrong.  It is the names of the 12 APOSTLES OF THE LAMB having priority that this New Jerusalem sits upon, as Rev. 21:14 tells us.  With Christ as the "chief cornerstone", of course.  And with the 12 GATES named after the 12 tribes instead.

Foundation stones being laid down are heavily highlighted in scripture.  There is great symbolic import in their being put into position; many times with the specific dates given for those occasions.  It is no accident that the 12 APOSTLES form the supporting base that the New Jerusalem structure is built upon.  Because Christ said that the 12 APOSTLES would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in the days of the early church after Christ had been resurrected and ascended (Matt. 19:28). 

Robycop3 would probably wish to have that flipped upside down in the New Jerusalem, with the 12 tribes judging the 12 Apostles instead.

I think that's what they call a "Freudian slip".

[Choir Loft]

The women represents apostate Jerusalem....... I dont think so....... more MAN words.... not biblical!

Biblical imagery often connotes multiple interpretations. 

Preachers have been milking the different implications of scripture for centuries.  The bottom line here is that scripture isn't limited to a single interpretation.   Appropriate understanding comes from knowing the Bible as a whole - a difficult task for a life long scholar and an impossible one for most folks who are only familiar with secular propaganda, political extremism, buzz words and religious slogans.

MAN words aren't four letter words, not in the Bible anyway.   Misandric attitudes pollute American society, driven by satanic motivations for supremacy of one group over another at the expense of the other.  As a result, none are motivated to a true devotion to God's honest Word.

In this has American society chosen to bring a curse upon itself.   We deliberately turn our backs upon God and each other - seeking the advantage of our special interest group and losing God's blessing for all. 

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[4WD]

God doesn't judge nations; He judges individuals.  That is certainly true relative to the spiritual aspects.  We speak of the nation rejecting God, but nations do not reject God, individuals reject God.

[Amo]

God doesn't judge nations; He judges individuals.  That is certainly true relative to the spiritual aspects.  We speak of the nation rejecting God, but nations do not reject God, individuals reject God.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

If God has declared anything concerning a nation, then that nation will be judged according to His word.

[4WD]

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

If God has declared anything concerning a nation, then that nation will be judged according to His word.

So then if God judges, i.e., condemns, America, you will be condemned as well?  If not, then what does it mean that God judges America?  Are you not America?

[Amo]

So then if God judges, i.e., condemns, America, you will be condemned as well?  If not, then what does it mean that God judges America?  Are you not America?

No. The nation will be condemned. God's own are already saved out of every nation of this earth. Israel was judged and condemned, but the remnant were saved. This entire world is judged and condemned, but the remnant in Christ are and will be saved. Every nation of this earth has and does become corrupted and passes away. God's own from within them, shall never pass away. Though they may sleep the sleep of death for a while, they will be awakened by our Savior when He returns. Unto salvation for His own, and destruction for the wicked who have rejected His mercy and authority. 

[RB]

No. The nation will be condemned. God's own are already saved out of every nation of this earth. Israel was judged and condemned, but the remnant were saved. This entire world is judged and condemned, but the remnant in Christ are and will be saved. Every nation of this earth has and does become corrupted and passes away. God's own from within them, shall never pass away. Though they may sleep the sleep of death for a while, they will be awakened by our Savior when He returns. Unto salvation for His own, and destruction for the wicked who have rejected His mercy and authority.

Amo~ while I agree that God does judge nations and spares the righteous therein, just as he destroyed the seven nations and gave their land to Israel of old. Yet, the righteous shall never die, for they have eternal life and is impossible for them to die~the wicked do not live after the death of their body, but will be raised at the last day only to face judgment and then the second death in the lake of fire.

[4WD]

What does it even mean that God has judged a nation?  How is that determined?  What is different about a nation after it is judged as compared to before?  Please be specific.

[Amo]

Amo~ while I agree that God does judge nations and spares the righteous therein, just as he destroyed the seven nations and gave their land to Israel of old. Yet, the righteous shall never die, for they have eternal life and is impossible for them to die~the wicked do not live after the death of their body, but will be raised at the last day only to face judgment and then the second death in the lake of fire.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

[RB]

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Okay, still supports what I said~the WICKED do not live after the death of their body UNTIL the resurrection at the last day when they shall be judge. The righteous are NOW WITH CHRIST after the death of their body per many scriptures. The righteous were JUDGED IN Christ's death on the cross, and shall never be judged in the same sense as the wicked, as a matter of truth, they along with Christ, shall judge even angels that sinned!

1st Corinthians 6:2,3~Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Amo~ you need to forsake that false teaching of the SDA that we as the wicked live not again until the last day. You seem to love God and respect his word, you need to reconsider the doctrine that you learned from the SDA.

John 8:51~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

[RB]

What does it even mean that God has judged a nation?  How is that determined?  What is different about a nation after it is judged as compared to before?  Please be specific.

Brother, only in THIS LIFE are nations judge, not at the DAY of judgement, individuals will be judged from those nations. The same manner which NATIONS are blessed who honors the LORD's word and make him their trust as we AS A NATION once did overall considered.

[DaveW]

God doesn't judge nations; He judges individuals.  That is certainly true relative to the spiritual aspects.  We speak of the nation rejecting God, but nations do not reject God, individuals reject God.

That is entirely untrue.  The Hebrew prophets frequently have entire passages of God judging Nations, including Israel.

[4WD]

Brother, only in THIS LIFE are nations judge, not at the DAY of judgement, individuals will be judged from those nations. The same manner which NATIONS are blessed who honors the LORD's word and make him their trust as we AS A NATION once did overall considered.

You still haven't answered my question. I understand what you are saying about this life versus the day of judgment.  However, you haven't told me what it means for God to judge a nation. I don't think there even is such a thing. But if there is, then what is the result of such a judgment?  How can we tell whether a nation has been judged?  How can we tell which nations have been judged? 

[4WD]

That is entirely untrue.  The Hebrew prophets frequently have entire passages of God judging Nations, including Israel.

Give us an example of God judging a nation; specifically given me an example where it says that God has judged a nation. 

[DaveW]

So then if God judges, i.e., condemns, America, you will be condemned as well?  If not, then what does it mean that God judges America?  Are you not America

Were Joshua and Caleb "condemned" to wander in the desert for 40 years with the rest of their nation?

Were the innocent wives and children of Korah's co-conspirators swallowed alive into hell along with those who rose up against Moses?

And not only in the past, but in the future AFTER the Armageddon battle:   

Zechariah 14:16
Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

[DaveW]

What does it even mean that God has judged a nation?  How is that determined?  What is different about a nation after it is judged as compared to before?  Please be specific.

Just look at Egypt during the period leading up to Israel crossing the Red Sea.  10 plagues, 9 of which which did NOT affect the people living in the Goshen district.

[RB]

You still haven't answered my question. I understand what you are saying about this life versus the day of judgment.  However, you haven't told me what it means for God to judge a nation. I don't think there even is such a thing. But if there is, then what is the result of such a judgment?  How can we tell whether a nation has been judged?  How can we tell which nations have been judged?

Brother, I'll give a couple~look at all the witty inventions the USA has over other nations and these inventions have made our life EASY in comparison to other nations. We at one time was the head and not the tail, that seems to be changing. We enjoy the best of just about everything one could think of. We have had NO war on our own homeland like other nations have experienced. We have enjoyed prosperity, freedom and so many other blessings. The list is long. We have MORE than we need in our homeland this cannot be said of most other nations. 

[4WD]

Brother, I'll give a couple~look at all the witty inventions the USA has over other nations and these inventions have made our life EASY in comparison to other nations. We at one time was the head and not the tail, that seems to be changing. We enjoy the best of just about everything one could think of. We have had NO war on our own homeland like other nations have experienced. We have enjoyed prosperity, freedom and so many other blessings. The list is long. We have MORE than we need in our homeland this cannot be said of most other nations.

So then nations that are "rich" are rich because God has blessed them and nations that are "poor" are poor because God has judged (condemned) them?  I don't think so; but perhaps that is just me.

It doesn't work that way even with people and I don't think it  works that way with nations.

[Rella]

Okay, still supports what I said~the WICKED do not live after the death of their body UNTIL the resurrection at the last day when they shall be judge.

So you do not believe in the triune nature of man?

So you do not believe  Eccl. 12:7 (RB's choice of bible)

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." ? 

[DaveW]

Okay, still supports what I said~the WICKED do not live after the death of their body UNTIL the resurrection at the last day when they shall be judge. The righteous are NOW WITH CHRIST after the death of their body per many scriptures.

that assumes that once someone dies they are in the same time line as us; meaning that there is a time lag between death and resurrection / judgement.  Since God exists outside of time, and Ecclesiastes says the spirit returns to God upon death, it would seem that we leave this time line as well. 

[RB]

So you do not believe in the triune nature of man?

So you do not believe  Eccl. 12:7 (RB's choice of bible)

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." ? 

It has not been too long since we had a few posts on the difference between the three~body, soul, and spirit of man. I posted those mainly for you and you read what I believe, have you so soon forgotten? Actually, Solomon mentions this two separate times in Ecclesiastes~chapter three and 12.

Ecclesiastes deals EXCUSLVELY about life UNDER THE SUN and what is best for man~We KNOW about the afterlife more from other scriptures, mainly the NT.

Man's spirit is his soul's personality and when a man dies his body returns back to dust and his spirit to God who gave it. Now, in the NT, we know much more~ (with a little light from the OT) believers OT and NT have eternal life and shall never truly taste of death for God is NOT the God of dead, but of the LIVING! The wicked are not so~when they die, they live NOT again until the thousand years are expired and then ALL of the wicked shall come forth at the last day to be judged. Read Revelation chapter twenty.

enough for now.

Back to Revelation's symbolic language.

[Amo]

Okay, still supports what I said~the WICKED do not live after the death of their body UNTIL the resurrection at the last day when they shall be judge. The righteous are NOW WITH CHRIST after the death of their body per many scriptures. The righteous were JUDGED IN Christ's death on the cross, and shall never be judged in the same sense as the wicked, as a matter of truth, they along with Christ, shall judge even angels that sinned! Amo~ you need to forsake that false teaching of the SDA that we as the wicked live not again until the last day. You seem to love God and respect his word, you need to reconsider the doctrine that you learned from the SDA.

You may of course believe as you wish, and take one statement, or partial statement from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and make it mean what you wish. Nevertheless, our Lord and Savior did not teach that the dead in Christ would be immediately with Him upon their death. Why would a term like the dead in Christ even exist, if He or the scriptures taught what you teach? Eternal life and immortality for the saved are received at the resurrection.

Luk 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Luk 18:29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body...
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

The first death is not death at all, but rather a sleep which all will be awakened from. The second death is death indeed, which all the unsaved will die.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[4WD]

Okay, still supports what I said~the WICKED do not live after the death of their body UNTIL the resurrection at the last day when they shall be judge.

What message do you get from the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16?

.....The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side (Luke 16:22-23)