Why do catholics reject the invisible things of God ?

[mclees8]

You have grasped the visible and have failed to grasp the invisible.  Why do we turn what is spiritual into that which is only carnal and earthly?  Is there that of the church which is visible? Yes ! But if all you know and understand is what is visible and gratifies the  eyes and the carnal mind you  have missed Christ.


Have we failed to understand Jesus when he said God is spirit and those who worship him must worship Him in the spirit and in truth  For God desires such to worship Him. Does not God sit on a heavenly throne, and does he not transcend all that is earthly. And transcends the very universe. Does he not transcends that which is carnal and sensual' See beyond what you see feel and touch, and you will see the invisible God and you will see Jesus sitting at the right hand of the father, just as Steven saw Him but the carnal minded cannot grasp it. Just as Jesus said the his disciples in John 14: 16,17
 
6 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Few really grasp this Spiritual relationship that empowers them to go beyond the natural and see the supernatural God.


This is the curse of the carnal minded church. It  rejects the invisible church saying that the church is only a physical visible structure and hierarchy of men and priests who perform ritual ceremony  Their vision is short and cannot see far off.  They see what is only  tangible and sensual. They channel their faith through that which is tangible and sensual. They look to men who represent God to them. They only see what is structured and all that is law, and earthly tradition. This is not to say that these things have a certain place but if that's all you understand than you have truly missed God

God bless

[Ryan2010]

The visible is aspect of the Church is on Earth, the invisible Church in the Kingdom....  They are, like the Trinity, One.

Triumphant/Militant.

Jesus is the express image of the invisible God.

I think both Orthodox and Catholics would argue that you're over-spiritualizing everything which is a result of missing the point of the incarnation.  Causes you to reject the reality of the material aspect of the redemption and restoration found within the Incarnation. 

We might also argue that the theology you espousing is not unlike gnosticism.



God  bless

[mclees8]

The visible is aspect of the Church is on Earth, the invisible Church in the Kingdom....  They are, like the Trinity, One.

Triumphant/Militant.

Jesus is the express image of the invisible God.

I think both Orthodox and Catholics would argue that you're over-spiritualizing everything which is a result of missing the point of the incarnation.  Causes you to reject the reality of the material aspect of the redemption and restoration found within the Incarnation. 

We might also argue that the theology you espousing is not unlike gnosticism.



God  bless

The problem is not over spiritualizing. This would only be the response from someone who does not really grasp what I said and what the Gospel of Christ says

I said there is that which is the physical body of the church on the earth, but it is as nothing if you do not grasp what is truly of the spirit. The carnal church only interests itself in the outward apearences of religion. It only undrstands a relationship with God through the tangible and intelectual idea of religion. But of far greater importance is the personal  spiritual relationship we have with God.

Do you ever pray to God in the spirit in you spiritual closet? Do you feel as you have Jeus by your side every day? Why is the Holy Spirit called the the holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost? The very idea projected from the spirit is invisible. it is not physical yet the Holy Spirit exists in the heart of all who who know Him. Do you only exsperience Him when you are in church, or a priest prays with you. Do you think church is just  a place you go to, a building with steeples and stained glass windows  or do you ever sense God when you are all alone and talk to him there. And Im not talking about praying the Rosery or praying through Mary,  but talking to Jesus.

I am often surprised that  many Catholics reject the idea of the invisible spiritual while arguing only about tangible evidences of the church. Either one is born of the spirit or he is not. Where do you get the gnostic idea ?  I will have to read about them. However I relate only to the gospel 

God bless
   

[trifecta]

Few really grasp this Spiritual relationship that empowers them to go beyond the natural and see the supernatural God.

You have a point, a spiritual relationship is important.  However, you make it spiritual vs. physical.  Jesus did not come to replace the physical with the spiritual, but to restore the physical to its original pure state.  Remember after God made the universe, what did he say?  It was good.

This is the curse of the carnal minded church. It  rejects the invisible church

The invisible church was an idea dreamed up from the Reformers.   You won't see the term invisible church for 1500 years (outside of Augustine). I wonder why?  Could it have something to do with they were not in the physical church?

saying that the church is only a physical visible structure and hierarchy of men and priests who perform ritual ceremony

No Catholic says the church is just physical.  It is both physical and spiritual, just like those made in the image of God.

  Their vision is short and cannot see far off.  They see what is only  tangible and sensual. They channel their faith through that which is tangible and sensual.

It sensual bad?  No, in the Orthodox church, we use all the senses in worship.  They are a wonderful gift from God. 

[I said there is that which is the physical body of the church on the earth, but it is as nothing if you do not grasp what is truly of the spirit. The carnal church only interests itself in the outward apearences of religion. It only undrstands a relationship with God through the tangible and intelectual idea of religion. But of far greater importance is the personal  spiritual relationship we have with God.

Here, again, you are talking about the physical vs. the spiritual.  Another point you miss, which I totally get in our American society, is the importance of community.  The Protestant Reformers tried to reduce the church is an invisible entity that doesn't really matter. 

Protestant theology is not how the early church thought.  In communal societies (as was ancient Israel), people didn't think in such ways as you are describing.   I am not saying that individual worship is not important, but it is not the end-all of a relationship with God; it may not even be the most important part.

Thanks for reading.

[Ryan2010]

The problem is not over spiritualizing. This would only be the response from someone who does not really grasp what I said and what the Gospel of Christ says

I apologize.  I think we have the tower of babel built between us here.  My responses come from my understanding of your understanding of catholicism.  What you believe about catholicism is based on your beliefs being juxtaposed against what catholics (both Orthodox and Roman Catholic) believe about themselves.  

I say that the reason you dismiss our focus on the physical and visible aspect of the Church is because you reject our visible churches.  However, you have to remember that what you understand of catholics comes from your interaction with them and so most of what you hear us saying to you often has to do with the visible aspect.  We are often trying to explain the physical and visible aspect that it probably looks like that's all we care about.  However, this is not the case.

I said there is that which is the physical body of the church on the earth, but it is as nothing if you do not grasp what is truly of the spirit.

I think an Orthodox and Roman Catholic could agree with this statement but this is where gnosticism comes in.  We agree that it's nothing for the "individual" if there is not "Spirit".  However, notice in your language you put emphasis on "grasp" what is truly of the Spirit.  And Orthodox person will say that we can not grasp the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit is not something we can mentally grasp.  If we could, then we could cognitively "ascend" and we can not.  That would mean that only those who "understood" could ascend.  That would leave out the mentally handicap, children and infants.  The gnostics believed that their ability to "understand" or "cognitively grasp" certain realities is what allowed them to "ascend".  So this is where the gnostic comment comes out of.  We Orthodox and Roman Catholic embrace Holy Mystery.  Our job is to have the same attitude as Christ:

Philippians 2:5-8

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
     did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
     taking the very nature of a servant,
     being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
     he humbled himself
     and became obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

This is what we "focus" on.  This is why we seem so "sober" and "somber".  Do not think that it is not that we are not zealous or "on fire" for God.  We are. It's just that we know that this attitude is a very quiet and long suffering one.  

The carnal church only interests itself in the outward apearences of religion. It only undrstands a relationship with God through the tangible and intelectual idea of religion. But of far greater importance is the personal  spiritual relationship we have with God.

Completely agree.  The most important thing is communion with God.  Both Orthodox and Roman Catholics will say that we are only ever truly human when we are being conformed to the image of God. It's not an "intellectual" thing.  This is why a mere child or mentally handicapped person can be a great theologian.  It is through our weaknesses that God's strength is manifest.  Our focus is on communion or union with Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal.

Do you ever pray to God in the spirit in you spiritual closet? Do you feel as you have Jeus by your side every day? Why is the Holy Spirit called the the holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost? The very idea projected from the spirit is invisible.

Absolutely.  However, again, this is where the gnostic charge applies.  We recognize the importance in the invisible but often is through the physical and visible that the invisible is made manifest.  To reject the physical and material as something that God has no intention of restoring and redeeming disembodies the reality of the God's boundless loving generosity.  The Gnostics viewed the material and physical as pretty much cosmic "junk".  

To illustrate I'll just post a few verses.  Each shows that we are not limited to reading the bible but can read God in the pages of creation, the entire cosmos and every aspect of existence speaks volumes about God, so much so that we can't even express or grasp this Holy Mystery and are left stupefied, humbled and slack-jawed in Awe.

Romans 1:20

20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Colossians 1:15
[ The Supremacy of Christ ] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Romans 8:21
that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Isaiah 65:17
"Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Isaiah 66:22
"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Galatians 6:15
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.

So you see that much of this redemption and renewal has in fact already begun. Insofar as we are in Christ, nothing is lost!  There's a very real physical and material aspect to the spiritual.  

Do you only exsperience Him when you are in church, or a priest prays with you. Do you think church is just  a place you go to, a building with steeples and stained glass windows  or do you ever sense God when you are all alone and talk to him there. And Im not talking about praying the Rosery or praying through Mary,  but talking to Jesus.

Again, there is nowhere you can go to be separated from God's love...  NOWHERE, not even the grave.

Romans 8:38-39

38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is what is soooo frustrating about becoming catholic.  Everyone assumes that you're buying into dead religion or signing up to become a white-washed tomb.  People have this stereo-type about Catholics and it's so cartoony.  We know.  We understand.  Yes, of course we know that relationship with God is super duper important.  It's life.  

Please please please cut the catholics some slack.  

I am often surprised that  many Catholics reject the idea of the invisible spiritual while arguing only about tangible evidences of the church. Either one is born of the spirit or he is not.

Catholics don't reject the invisible it's just we don't think that the Church is "only" invisible.  We aren't saying it's a brick building either.  Again, this is just the tower of babel.  Did you know that on Pentecost we sing about Pentecost being the reversal of the building of the Tower of Babel?   Purty neat.  It's the Holy Spirit that tears down these communication barriers and allows healing, restoration and redemption to permeate all of humanity and even the creation.  



May God bless you abundantly

P.S.  I didn't really address your ideas about "personal" and individual so much though I did put the one "individual" comment in quotes to draw attention to it.  But yeah, there's a lot to be said there.  Corporate (though that's quite a dirty word today) worship plays a nearly non-existent role in most protestant circles.  Corporate prayer, fasting etc.  This too comes from an "over-spiritualizing" which I think is born out of sola scripture (not going there) and consequently a distortion of the reality of the incarnation of Christ (the fact that most protestants see it as a legal atonement not much else).

Blessings

[mclees8]

Few really grasp this Spiritual relationship that empowers them to go beyond the natural and see the supernatural God.

You have a point, a spiritual relationship is important.  However, you make it spiritual vs. physical.  Jesus did not come to replace the physical with the spiritual, but to restore the physical to its original pure state.  Remember after God made the universe, what did he say?  It was good.

This is the curse of the carnal minded church. It  rejects the invisible church

The invisible church was an idea dreamed up from the Reformers.   You won't see the term invisible church for 1500 years (outside of Augustine). I wonder why?  Could it have something to do with they were not in the physical church?

saying that the church is only a physical visible structure and hierarchy of men and priests who perform ritual ceremony

No Catholic says the church is just physical.  It is both physical and spiritual, just like those made in the image of God.

  Their vision is short and cannot see far off.  They see what is only  tangible and sensual. They channel their faith through that which is tangible and sensual.

It sensual bad?  No, in the Orthodox church, we use all the senses in worship.  They are a wonderful gift from God. 

[I said there is that which is the physical body of the church on the earth, but it is as nothing if you do not grasp what is truly of the spirit. The carnal church only interests itself in the outward apearences of religion. It only undrstands a relationship with God through the tangible and intelectual idea of religion. But of far greater importance is the personal  spiritual relationship we have with God.

Here, again, you are talking about the physical vs. the spiritual.  Another point you miss, which I totally get in our American society, is the importance of community.  The Protestant Reformers tried to reduce the church is an invisible entity that doesn't really matter. 

Protestant theology is not how the early church thought.  In communal societies (as was ancient Israel), people didn't think in such ways as you are describing.   I am not saying that individual worship is not important, but it is not the end-all of a relationship with God; it may not even be the most important part.

Thanks for reading.

Thanks for your response
First i really don't care for line by line debates. When you just pick out the sentence you think you can argue and on down the line the message is hacked up and is lost.

You say i am pitting the spiritual against the physical. But I did not dismiss the physical. It is evident You and i are here and we are very physical, but when Jesus after his death and resurrection, and had not yet returned to the father he appeared to the disciples as if passing through a wall yet he beckoned to Thomas to touch Him. He was both physical and spirit at the same time.  Of course we are not like that at least not yet maybe some day.

But what we must grasp is our spiritual realtionship that is first and foremost what Jesus came to establish with us. This is the central drive in the book John. It is the reason Jesus said I must go away for if i go not away the comforter will not come In the old Testament Priest hood or in the Old testament as a whole only certain prophets or priests were led of the spirit for God had not yet poored out of his spirit upon all flesh but it was  after the promise of the Holy Spirit had come Peter spoke saying This what was spoken of by the Prophet Joel," i will poor out of my spirit on all flesh. You will be given visions and dreams. this is the personal spiritual connection between us and God.

Paul said in 2nd Corinthians 4: 18 While we look not at the things which are seen but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

You see it is not the physical temporal things that glorifies God but the things of the spirit that are not seen because the spirit lives and  come from within just as
Jesus said 7 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


You say I over spiritualize but i have much problem with over emphesis of the physical things of religion. People are impressed with grand architecture like gothic cathedrals that represent the church as if the more grand it is, surely God must be in it. I have a problem with impressing the idea of God being in the these things. I recall Jesus  walking with his Disciples by the Temple and said to him look at how beautiful it is. Jesus said to them of a truth not one stone here will left upon another. You see Jesus had established something that can never be destroyed. This is the church the gates of hell cannot prevail against. Paul said it," Know ye not ye are the temple of God and Spirit of God dwells within you"

Listen to the powerful words of  Steven before he was stoned
But Solomon built him an house. 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye

Think about vatican city with all its fine sculpture and religious mystic symbols. Are we not impressed with the works of our hands and are we not impressed with the pope in all his religious vestment when he apears on his balcony. Do we not think truly this must be the city of God on the earth. This is the throne of Peter. But itell you that just like the Temple of Jerusalem this place will be a ruins.

God bless and thanks for reading   
 













   
     

[jessie70]

I have been having these same discussions, if not using the exact same questions.....
but theres are big reasons, why this makes no reasonable sense to us....

1.its not in scripture word for word what they say ....thus not backing up the belief they have.
2.they are not in a belief where they believe in the scriptures only.
3.they are in a belief that other people,other than whats in scripture, told them is ok and true.

they do not claim to believe in the scriptures, word for word, with what they teach and say.
they don't claim to be saved by the sole word of the scriptures(or they wouldn't call their priest father..as we know it says in the Bible to call "NOONE" father except our father in heaven.

also theres no proof in scripture, or anywhere, that Mary went through judgement and made it to heaven. theres also nowhere in scripture, saying that Mary is even in heaven( if so ...show it  WORD FOR WORD.

so if we are having a discussion with people that aren't living the word, in the BIBLE, and we absolutely know that it cant be made right, by the Bibles words, then its called false doctrine and false teaching and the Bible tells of it. 

I suggest to just leave it alone, because even Christ didn't try and bring Satan back to the faith because it was futile and useless......just like this false doctrine that's not in the scriptures...WORD FOR WORD  is useless and futile.

[mclees8]

I have been having these same discussions, if not using the exact same questions.....
but theres are big reasons, why this makes no reasonable sense to us....

1.its not in scripture word for word what they say ....thus not backing up the belief they have.
2.they are not in a belief where they believe in the scriptures only.
3.they are in a belief that other people,other than whats in scripture, told them is ok and true.

they do not claim to believe in the scriptures, word for word, with what they teach and say.
they don't claim to be saved by the sole word of the scriptures(or they wouldn't call their priest father..as we know it says in the Bible to call "NOONE" father except our father in heaven.

also theres no proof in scripture, or anywhere, that Mary went through judgement and made it to heaven. theres also nowhere in scripture, saying that Mary is even in heaven( if so ...show it  WORD FOR WORD.

so if we are having a discussion with people that aren't living the word, in the BIBLE, and we absolutely know that it cant be made right, by the Bibles words, then its called false doctrine and false teaching and the Bible tells of it. 

I suggest to just leave it alone, because even Christ didn't try and bring Satan back to the faith because it was futile and useless......just like this false doctrine that's not in the scriptures...WORD FOR WORD  is useless and futile.

I don't know if you were addressing me, but i have been trying to make sense to Catholics for years. I try not use the Protestant to catholic approach. It does not matter if they want to receive it or change their mind. I am not speaking to the same Catholics all the time. I must never give up for Christ never gave up on me. As he loves me so I will always love them.  They may not look at it that way. It is hard to break the hardened chains of life long teaching and traditions.

God bless 

[Selene]

I don't know if you were addressing me, but i have been trying to make sense to Catholics for years. I try not use the Protestant to catholic approach. It does not matter if they want to receive it or change their mind. I am not speaking to the same Catholics all the time. I must never give up for Christ never gave up on me. As he loves me so I will always love them.  They may not look at it that way. It is hard to break the hardened chains of life long teaching and traditions.

God bless 

2000 years is a very long time.  And we cannot give up the Apostolic tradition that has been handed down to us by the Apostles themselves. 

[mclees8]

I don't know if you were addressing me, but i have been trying to make sense to Catholics for years. I try not use the Protestant to catholic approach. It does not matter if they want to receive it or change their mind. I am not speaking to the same Catholics all the time. I must never give up for Christ never gave up on me. As he loves me so I will always love them.  They may not look at it that way. It is hard to break the hardened chains of life long teaching and traditions.

God bless 

2000 years is a very long time.  And we cannot give up the Apostolic tradition that has been handed down to us by the Apostles themselves. 

HI Selene. No one would ask that anyone  give up Aposoilic tradition. Only mans invented ones they did not hand down. How many are there now in the RCC. What they tell you though is that they are as the apostles and can make up traditions at will and say they are Apostolic.  To further  keep you blind  they say they are equal authority to scripture and the apostles so that you must  follow or do what ever they say. 

For example what about the Marian Doctrine. At what council and date that this doctrine become a doctrine. How far back can you trace that this doctrine was practiced. the origional twelve apostles gave us Apostolic tradition. but in all the new Testament I see no evidence of it. So what you have is some fifth century doctrine they made up and called it Apostolic and yet the are not apostles at all. Just succession of bishops who by the fifth century lost sight and made themselves authority through deception.

Yes hold fast to the traditions of the true apostles.
God bless   

[Angelos]

Dear Mclees8,

I have simple question to ask you. If the Catholic Church is sooo bad (as you seem to believe), why did God allowed her (and the Pope) to prosper and continue to grow for 2000 years? Was Jesus' mission on earth a failure?

If Reformation was such a great thing why did it splintered in more than 500 sects? Why did Protestants in Europe are not relevant anymore? (less than 30% of the people in Protestant European countries believe in ANY God; less than 5% go to church on a regular basis).

It's easy to pontificate and throw accusations, but by the end-of-the day I consider Jesus' mission on earth a sucess (though still in progress) and I consider the Catholic church a big part of this success

[mclees8]

Dear Mclees8,

I have simple question to ask you. If the Catholic Church is sooo bad (as you seem to believe), why did God allowed her (and the Pope) to prosper and continue to grow for 2000 years? Was Jesus' mission on earth a failure?

If Reformation was such a great thing why did it splintered in more than 500 sects? Why did Protestants in Europe are not relevant anymore? (less than 30% of the people in Protestant European countries believe in ANY God; less than 5% go to church on a regular basis).

It's easy to pontificate and throw accusations, but by the end-of-the day I consider Jesus' mission on earth a sucess (though still in progress) and I consider the Catholic church a big part of this success

Dear Angelos. i take it that you are new to the board. The arguments you present have been addressed since before Mathusela. Jesus never failed but man fails and has. Of course we know that Christianity was growing throughout the empire even before the RCC became  a religious political power, and yes the church has been here for 2000 years but it wasn't the RCC for 2000 years. the papacy did not become the religous power of the empire until the fifth century and even then it was by deception. This is a historical fact. The bishops of Rome commited a fraud known as the "Donations of Constantine" That you will find in you own catholic encyclopedia   

There is much you probably don't know because you have been standing on these same standard arguements that the RCC teaches you and deal with those who are ignorant of the facts.  First you say that its so big a fallowing because it is blessed of God. that is deceptive. When the papacy became the religious political government of the empire Salvation was more about adherence to papal authority rather then personal conviction and faith in Christ.  The papacy became a self styled power that was more on the line of forced religion.  Jesus would never have been about this. Even when the Conquestadors of spain infiltrated Mexico and South America they eastablish the Roman catholic religion and they were raised up in it, but it was more forced observance by the use of intimidation  rather then personal choice. Now they say the have such a large following because God blessed the the RCC but it was historical conquest.  So now the RCC's influence covers the Roman empire, Mexico and south America and even in Africa predominately by power and influence Rather then it was when the Church was born at Pentecost When personal choice and conviction brought salvation. 

I've been at this for a long time and not just here. I know every standard argument that's out there and I have seen through all of it.   I have only scratched the tip of the ice burg for you

God bless

[Angelos]

Dear Mclees8,

According to your argument (that people in the Roman Empire and in the middle ages were forced to adhere to the Papacy) as soon as people were free to choose, they would have abandoned the RCC in droves. If anything the secular authorities in Europe, starting in the 1700s, made it very difficult for people to be Catholic.

For example, have you hear about the "Kulturkampf" in Germany? Here's the info. from Wikipedia:

"In the newly founded German Empire, (1870) Bismarck sought to bolster the power of the secular state and reduce the political and social influence of the Roman Catholic Church by instituting political control over Church activities.

Priests and bishops who resisted the Kulturkampf were arrested or removed from their positions. By the height of anti-Catholic legislation, half of the Prussian bishops were in prison or in exile, a quarter of the parishes had no priest, half the monks and nuns had left Prussia, a third of the monasteries and convents were closed, 1800 parish priests were imprisoned or exiled, and thousands of laypeople were imprisoned for helping the priests.

It is generally accepted amongst historians that the Kulturkampf measures targeted the Catholic Church under Pope Pius IX with discriminatory sanctions"

Dear Mclees8, Germans remained Catholic despite strong persecutions. Hitler also was a major anti-Catholic.

Same thing happened in France after 1789, when the "French Revolution" and later Napolean arrested and executed many priests and prosecuted Catholics.

So in fact you are WRONG. The Catholic Church has survived and thrived DESPITE persecutions from secular authorities during 1650-1940.

Yes they did have help from the secular authorities BEFORE that, but if the Papacy was as hated as you're making it out to be, the Catholic Church would have unraveled in the 1700s-1900s when the Catholic Church was persecuted.

In Latin America the same thing. After 1820 the Mexican government tried to persecute the Catholic church and failed.

I can give you many specific examples where the Catholic Church was persecuted in Germany, France, England, Poland and Mexico for decades and in the end it thrived. Why? Because people LOVE it. Read some history dear Mclees8

[desertknight]

Unfortunately, McClees sees the Catholic church as if it were the Church from 500+ years ago, (Oh were it only so!  ).  I wish he could see that Hitler, Communism, "total state power", global governments, all those things he fears, have been the enemy of the Church since the ideas of the so-called "Enlightenment" and more specifically, of the French Revolution.  From the French terror and anti-Catholicism to kulturkampf, to Hitler's Reich and all the "isms" of the bloodbath that was the 20th century-ALL were the western world's bloody defiance of the Christ and the Church He founded.   The West will continue to lurch from one genocide to the next, living and breathing materialism and relativism, until they are turned into the dust that the Roman Empire became, or our Lord and King returns in glory.

[mclees8]

Unfortunately, McClees sees the Catholic church as if it were the Church from 500+ years ago, (Oh were it only so!  ).  I wish he could see that Hitler, Communism, "total state power", global governments, all those things he fears, have been the enemy of the Church since the ideas of the so-called "Enlightenment" and more specifically, of the French Revolution.  From the French terror and anti-Catholicism to kulturkampf, to Hitler's Reich and all the "isms" of the bloodbath that was the 20th century-ALL were the western world's bloody defiance of the Christ and the Church He founded.   The West will continue to lurch from one genocide to the next, living and breathing materialism and relativism, until they are turned into the dust that the Roman Empire became, or our Lord and King returns in glory.

well Hello Night. haven't seen you here for a spell. Well i said it straight the first time

I haven't a clue what you and Angelos are talking about. Germany Hitler and all that.  Why don't you guys address the subject that i spoke of. Like when the papacy  institutionalized the church and said there is no salvation out side of it. what they meant was that of being of the RCC and adherence to papal authority constituted salvation.  Just think that the early church( long before the RCC that is) Salvation was a matter of personal faith and conviction. When the Papacy ruled the empire religiously and politically what brought salvation then? do you think it was about personal faith. Don't tell me that they were about reaching the lost. They jumped in bed with political power to gain more control of the people of the empire.  They became the only standard of salvation by adherence to papal authority and they ruled this way right up to the reformation because they were the power of Rome. What a sham they were and nothing like the church that Christ founded. This is the truth and you know it. i spoke of the big brag of being the largest church by following. What a sham that is.

Good to have you back      

[Angelos]

I think one of the things that  Knight and I are trying to say is that you need to make a distinction between the leadership of the Catholic Church during 1000-1500 and the leadership of the Catholic Church the last 500 years. My point is that, partly thanks to the crisis at the Reformation, the Catholic Church was able to have its own Catholic-reformation and improve dramatically.

The Catholic Church formally acknowledges that, at times, she has sinned and Pope John Paul II had the courage to acknowledge and ask forgiveness for these sins. Protestants have committed similar, and even worse sins (Luther's virulent anti-semitisim , or the burning of "witches" by the Puritans come to mind, or the mass killings of Catholic monks during the early years of the Reformation).

In fact at times Protestant groups have asked for forgiveness for their past sins, much like the Pope did, examples:

The Southern Baptist Convention repented of their past support for slavery and racial segregation. The asked African-Americans for forgiveness of the denomination's past actions and for any residual racism left today.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America apologized for the viciously anti-Jewish statements made by Martin Luther, the main leader of the Protestant Reformation.

The United Methodist Church apologized for the brutality of a lay Methodist preacher who led a massacre of Natives during the Civil War.

We're ALL sinners Mclees and if believe you can find a Church composed of perfect people, you don't understand Christ's mission on earth

Back in the 1500s, Luther was right to protest the abuses of the official Church of the time, but he was NOT right to break the unity of the Church and start playing with the core dogmas of Christianity to satisfy the nationalistic impulses of the German princes

The reason we quoted some of the persecutions the Catholic Church has suffered since  the 1500s, is to make the point that the Catholic Church of TODAY finds its support in the love of the large majority of 1 billion Catholics and in the love of Christ, NOT in the support of some secular leaders.

[Rob, PGK]

Great post. you get manna.

[JustChristian]

It  rejects the invisible church saying that the church is only a physical visible structure and hierarchy of men and priests who perform ritual ceremony  Their vision is short and cannot see far off.  They see what is only  tangible and sensual. They channel their faith through that which is tangible and sensual. They look to men who represent God to them. They only see what is structured and all that is law, and earthly tradition. This is not to say that these things have a certain place but if that's all you understand than you have truly missed God

God bless

Hi!

I think your misunderstanding lies in one word; "only".  They don't "only" see what is structured, or physical.  They see the spiritual as well.  As you said, these things have a certain place.  Catholics believe that some spiritual things are represented by physical things or can draw their minds toward something spiritual.    "Only" would be a misrepresentation of what they believe.

In Christ,
Nancy :)

[desertknight]

LoL, Nancy, you make a good Catholic apologist. 

[JustChristian]

Some folks feel the need to confess their sins to visible humans who are carnal and sinful.

This post is not to Catholics!! Catholics please ignore this post!! I dont need more friction or arguments.[/b][/color]

Dan

It's not that they feel the need.  They believe that this is the way God has set things up to be.  In fact, I'd venture to say that as far as feelings go most would rather not.

In Christ,
Nancy :)

[winsome]

LoL, Nancy, you make a good Catholic apologist. 

I agree. I think we can take a rest and leave it in her hands.   

             


Anyway, Dan only wants to talk to her.   

[desertknight]

Some folks feel the need to confess their sins to visible humans who are carnal and sinful.

This post is not to Catholics!! Catholics please ignore this post!! I dont need more friction or arguments.[/b][/color]

Dan

It's not that they feel the need.  They believe that this is the way God has set things up to be.  In fact, I'd venture to say that as far as feelings go most would rather not.

In Christ,
Nancy :)

And of course, the authority we believe the Church exercises in doing so is based in Holy Scripture such as...

John 20:21-23  "As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."  And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.  If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

[JustChristian]

Some folks feel the need to confess their sins to visible humans who are carnal and sinful.

This post is not to Catholics!! Catholics please ignore this post!! I dont need more friction or arguments.[/b][/color]

Dan

It's not that they feel the need.  They believe that this is the way God has set things up to be.  In fact, I'd venture to say that as far as feelings go most would rather not.

In Christ,
Nancy :)

And of course, the authority we believe the Church exercises in doing so is based in Holy Scripture such as...

John 20:21-23  "As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."  And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.  If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

I've also heard this verse used as well:

Matt 9
6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...

[mclees8]

It  rejects the invisible church saying that the church is only a physical visible structure and hierarchy of men and priests who perform ritual ceremony  Their vision is short and cannot see far off.  They see what is only  tangible and sensual. They channel their faith through that which is tangible and sensual. They look to men who represent God to them. They only see what is structured and all that is law, and earthly tradition. This is not to say that these things have a certain place but if that's all you understand than you have truly missed God

God bless

Hi!

I think your misunderstanding lies in one word; "only".  They don't "only" see what is structured, or physical.  They see the spiritual as well.  As you said, these things have a certain place.  Catholics believe that some spiritual things are represented by physical things or can draw their minds toward something spiritual.    "Only" would be a misrepresentation of what they believe.

In Christ,
Nancy :)

Over the years of being in protestant Catholic Chat boards I Have heard many times how Catholics reject the idea of the protestants about the invisible church. Their argument was that the Lord established a visible church authority on the earth.
as if they did not understand that the church was more than just visible.

I understand that there is that which is visible but more important than visible is the invisible things of God. that which is personal and spiritual. Catholics seem to put much emphysis on the outward practices such as cerimony. religous vestmes. religious Cathedrals. All that is the appearance of religion. I put little faith in these things. I do not want to go to church but be living church in faith and action. Payer is not something machanical but a real and personal communication and daily walk with my Lord.

I just drew my conclusion by many conversations over the years. i have yet to hear one catholic speak in terms of Holy spirit relationship. The argumet is only for the visible church authority. I call this the positional arguement that only defends a carnal church system. this is the reason for my post. 

Night says you would make a great Catholic apologist. Is that what you would like to be? Many catholic posters hear and other boards think of themselves as apologists. But they have not once spoke out in terms of knowing spiritual relationship. At least not to me. You say they do and i was wrong to use the word only. I pray I am wrong but have seen no evidence of it yet. If one is truly filled with the spirit it will be evident in the understanding that the church is far more that just a visible earthly entity. All that is the kingdom of heaven is not earthly but Christ sits on a heavenly throne at the right hand of the Father

Im not saying there is sincerity and a love for Christ I would just like to hear a little that the Holy spirit is a part of there personal walk instead of all the emphysis on defending the visible structure of church and authority as if that is all there was.   

God bless

[winsome]

It  rejects the invisible church saying that the church is only a physical visible structure and hierarchy of men and priests who perform ritual ceremony  Their vision is short and cannot see far off.  They see what is only  tangible and sensual. They channel their faith through that which is tangible and sensual. They look to men who represent God to them. They only see what is structured and all that is law, and earthly tradition. This is not to say that these things have a certain place but if that's all you understand than you have truly missed God

God bless

Hi!

I think your misunderstanding lies in one word; "only".  They don't "only" see what is structured, or physical.  They see the spiritual as well.  As you said, these things have a certain place.  Catholics believe that some spiritual things are represented by physical things or can draw their minds toward something spiritual.    "Only" would be a misrepresentation of what they believe.

In Christ,
Nancy :)

Over the years of being in protestant Catholic Chat boards I Have heard many times how Catholics reject the idea of the protestants about the invisible church. Their argument was that the Lord established a visible church authority on the earth.
as if they did not understand that the church was more than just visible.

I understand that there is that which is visible but more important than visible is the invisible things of God. that which is personal and spiritual. Catholics seem to put much emphysis on the outward practices such as cerimony. religous vestmes. religious Cathedrals. All that is the appearance of religion. I put little faith in these things. I do not want to go to church but be living church in faith and action. Payer is not something machanical but a real and personal communication and daily walk with my Lord.

I just drew my conclusion by many conversations over the years. i have yet to hear one catholic speak in terms of Holy spirit relationship. The argumet is only for the visible church authority. I call this the positional arguement that only defends a carnal church system. this is the reason for my post. 

Night says you would make a great Catholic apologist. Is that what you would like to be? Many catholic posters hear and other boards think of themselves as apologists. But they have not once spoke out in terms of knowing spiritual relationship. At least not to me. You say they do and i was wrong to use the word only. I pray I am wrong but have seen no evidence of it yet. If one is truly filled with the spirit it will be evident in the understanding that the church is far more that just a visible earthly entity. All that is the kingdom of heaven is not earthly but Christ sits on a heavenly throne at the right hand of the Father

Im not saying there is sincerity and a love for Christ I would just like to hear a little that the Holy spirit is a part of there personal walk instead of all the emphysis on defending the visible structure of church and authority as if that is all there was.   

God bless

We do believe in the invisible as well as the visible - for example the communion of saints. We believe that those in heaven (invisible) and those on earth (visible) are all part of the body of Christ, something you seem to deny when we talk about asking them for prayer.

[winsome]

Over the years of being in protestant Catholic Chat boards I Have heard many times how Catholics reject the idea of the protestants about the invisible church. Their argument was that the Lord established a visible church authority on the earth.
as if they did not understand that the church was more than just visible.

Most modern protestants reject the notion of a visible Ecclesia, the notion that we live out our Christian life within a Church, that the Church is where we find salvation. The body of Christ is regarded as some vague spiritual entity rather than something concretely visible with a structure and life to which we need to be visibly joined. In Ephesians 1:23 Paul calls the Church "the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way

[ex cathedra]

Few really grasp this Spiritual relationship that empowers them to go beyond the natural and see the supernatural God.

You have a point, a spiritual relationship is important.  However, you make it spiritual vs. physical.  Jesus did not come to replace the physical with the spiritual, but to restore the physical to its original pure state.  Remember after God made the universe, what did he say?  It was good.

This is the curse of the carnal minded church. It  rejects the invisible church

The invisible church was an idea dreamed up from the Reformers.   You won't see the term invisible church for 1500 years (outside of Augustine). I wonder why?  Could it have something to do with they were not in the physical church?

saying that the church is only a physical visible structure and hierarchy of men and priests who perform ritual ceremony

No Catholic says the church is just physical.  It is both physical and spiritual, just like those made in the image of God.

 Their vision is short and cannot see far off.  They see what is only  tangible and sensual. They channel their faith through that which is tangible and sensual.

It sensual bad?  No, in the Orthodox church, we use all the senses in worship.  They are a wonderful gift from God.  

[I said there is that which is the physical body of the church on the earth, but it is as nothing if you do not grasp what is truly of the spirit. The carnal church only interests itself in the outward apearences of religion. It only undrstands a relationship with God through the tangible and intelectual idea of religion. But of far greater importance is the personal  spiritual relationship we have with God.

Here, again, you are talking about the physical vs. the spiritual.  Another point you miss, which I totally get in our American society, is the importance of community.  The Protestant Reformers tried to reduce the church is an invisible entity that doesn't really matter.  

Protestant theology is not how the early church thought.  In communal societies (as was ancient Israel), people didn't think in such ways as you are describing.   I am not saying that individual worship is not important, but it is not the end-all of a relationship with God; it may not even be the most important part.

Thanks for reading.

the invisable church is dreamed up by the reformers is it?

no 

its the true catholic church of believers that only God can see 

only he see the heart .

the visable church would be the worshippers HUMANS  see
they would include believers along with unbeleivers .

GOD ALONE KNOWS  WHO REALLY ARE HIS AND  WILL SEPERATE THEM AT HIS TIME

[winsome]

the invisable church is dreamed up by the reformers is it?

no 

its the true catholic church of believers that only God can see 

only he see the heart .

the visable church would be the worshippers HUMANS  see
they would include believers along with unbeleivers .

GOD ALONE KNOWS  WHO REALLY ARE HIS AND  WILL SEPERATE THEM AT HIS TIME

Scripture, Tradition and History say otherwise. All are quite clear that Christ established a visible Church to carry his mission.