WHAT MAKES A PERSON A SAINT?

[DAN1]

What makes a person a Saint?

How does a person qualify to be a Saint?

Who is qualified to make that person a Saint?

[whirlwind]

What makes a person a Saint?

How does a person qualify to be a Saint?

Who is qualified to make that person a Saint?

The saints are the chosen few firstfruits called from among many believers for a specific purpose.  They are the firstfruits born in the last generation....first last.

• Matthew 20:16  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Our Father calls them and only He is qualified to do so.  They are those that.....

• Romans 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
  
  Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.
  
  Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

As He was crucified in the "great city," which is symbolic of the world and all it's carnal wickedness and lusts (Sodom and Egypt), so shall the witnesses/saints be crucified.  Their crucifixion is spiritual.  They must die to self.

• Revelation 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Editing in....I just noticed this was a Catholic Forum and...I'm not Catholic.  I'm not sure if that means I shouldn't reply.  If so, please excuse the post.

[DAN1]

What makes a person a Saint?

How does a person qualify to be a Saint?

Who is qualified to make that person a Saint?

The saints are the chosen few firstfruits called from among many believers for a specific purpose.  They are the firstfruits born in the last generation....first last.

• Matthew 20:16  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Our Father calls them and only He is qualified to do so.  They are those that.....

• Romans 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
  
  Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.
  
  Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

As He was crucified in the "great city," which is symbolic of the world and all it's carnal wickedness and lusts (Sodom and Egypt), so shall the witnesses/saints be crucified.  Their crucifixion is spiritual.  They must die to self.

• Revelation 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Editing in....I just noticed this was a Catholic Forum and...I'm not Catholic.  I'm not sure if that means I shouldn't reply.  If so, please excuse the post.

Hi Wirl.

Thanks for your input. I'm not a Catholic either.

Heres another: Revelation 14:12 (King James Version)

12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.



I'm sure the Catholics wont object to us being here? After all, we all believe in same God and same Bible.

Dan1

[Rob, PGK]

What makes a person a Saint?

How does a person qualify to be a Saint?

Who is qualified to make that person a Saint?

The saints are the chosen few firstfruits called from among many believers for a specific purpose.  They are the firstfruits born in the last generation....first last.

• Matthew 20:16  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Our Father calls them and only He is qualified to do so.  They are those that.....

• Romans 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
  
  Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.
  
  Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

As He was crucified in the "great city," which is symbolic of the world and all it's carnal wickedness and lusts (Sodom and Egypt), so shall the witnesses/saints be crucified.  Their crucifixion is spiritual.  They must die to self.

• Revelation 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Editing in....I just noticed this was a Catholic Forum and...I'm not Catholic.  I'm not sure if that means I shouldn't reply.  If so, please excuse the post.

Hi Wirl.

Thanks for your input. I'm not a Catholic either.

Heres another: Revelation 14:12 (King James Version)

12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.



I'm sure the Catholics wont object to us being here? After all, we all believe in same God and same Bible.

Dan1

All baptized Christians are Saints. The Church, however, gives special recognition to those of us who have led exemplary lives and confers upon them the title of "Saint." They do this so that we have other people to look up to instead of Tiger Woods and Micheal Jordan.

An official Saint is someone who the Church, after much investigation and deliberation, feels is bound for Heaven. Since what the Church binds on earth will be bound in Heaven, not only do we believe that they are, in fact, in Heaven, we also believe that we must be very careful in our deliberations.

Does your bible contain 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, The Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, additions to Esther, and the stories of Susanna and Bel and the Dragon which are included in Daniel? If not, then we don't use the same bible. We also, by the way, don't "believe in the bible" as you put it. I mean, of course we believe in it, there it is, you can't deny it's existence. We don't, however, worship it the way that many protestants do. We don't believe that it contains all the answers that we may need and we don't that it is the pillar and foundation of the truth, that is reserved for the church. The Bible is a tool, used by the Church, not the other way around. We believe this because, much like the Orthodox, our Church existed for over 3 centuries before the bible did.

[Ryan2010]

The Church, however, gives special recognition to those of us who have led exemplary lives and confers upon them the title of "Saint."

This Christian practice is also in accordance with the scriptures.  Notice that I called it, "practice".  How do people at your church practice the following passages?  

Hebrews 13:7

7Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

Hebrews 6:12

12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

1 Corinthians 4:16

16Therefore I urge you to imitate me.

1 Timothy 5:17

The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

1 Corinthians 16:20

All the brothers here send you greetings. Greet one another with a holy kiss.

2 Corinthians 13:12

Greet one another with a holy kiss.

1 Thessalonians 5:26

Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss.

So who is it at your church that you remember and imitate?  When do you remember them and what is it that they did that you imitate them?  Do you do this as a group or as an individual or not at all?     Who at your church do you give double honor?  How do you practice this "double honor"?  What's it look like?  Do you just think good thoughts about the guy, pat him on the back every now and then, bring him home-cooked meals or what?  How do you give double honor at your church?  How do you give single honor for that matter?  And just how many brothers have you given a holy kiss to if at all?  Does your whole church do this or is it just that elderly woman who sits close to the aisle and just can't help herself?

In short, do you and your church practice what the bible preaches?  If not, careful with that finger.  You'll poke your eye out.  




Saints Peter and Paul giving one another the holy kiss prior to their martyrdom,Commiato dei santi Pietro e Paolo,by Alonzo Rodriguez (16th Century) Messina Museo Regionale




God bless

[DAN1]

You are off topic Ryan. This thread is about SAINTS. Not about leaders or kissing.

Btw, I'm not pointing any fingers. I dont know why you came out with that?

Am i threat to you or something?

[DAN1]

Posted by: Rob

"Does your bible contain 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, The Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, additions to Esther, and the stories of Susanna and Bel and the Dragon which are included in Daniel? If not, then we don't use the same bible. We also, by the way, don't "believe in the bible" as you put it. I mean, of course we believe in it, there it is, you can't deny it's existence. We don't, however, worship it the way that many protestants do. We don't believe that it contains all the answers that we may need and we don't that it is the pillar and foundation of the truth, that is reserved for the church. The Bible is a tool, used by the Church, not the other way around. We believe this because, much like the Orthodox, our Church existed for over 3 centuries before the bible did."
===============================================

I never ONCE heard a Catholic  priest read from those books. When was the last time you heard readings from those books.?
Do you really think the book of "TOBIT" is any help to you? I dont think its inspired at all. In fact the book is hilarious.

Which of those books had a prophet chosen by GOD?

[Ryan2010]

You are off topic Ryan. This thread is about SAINTS. Not about leaders or kissing.

Btw, I'm not pointing any fingers. I dont know why you came out with that?

Am i threat to you or something?

I apologize.  I thought that it was on topic as Saints are those leaders that we imitate and also find worthy of double honor.  We not only recognize the saints that are still fighting the good fight but also those who have already run the race and have been approved by God.  

For both Orthodox and Catholic, just because a person's body has fallen asleep doesn't mean that they stop being a member of the Church.  I mean, if your brother or sister falls asleep in the lord, do you not still think of them as a brother or a sister?  

The kissing comes in because we often kiss their pictures (icons) just like someone might kiss a photograph of someone that is no longer "with" them.  Well, they are, of course, still with them, but they have moved to that place within the heart.  For the Christian, Christ IS our heart and so when they are asleep IN Christ, it is there that we kiss them and their pictures remind us not only of our brother and sisters who have fallen asleep but also the light of Christ that continues to shine.  

1 Corinthians 9:24
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

2 Timothy 4:6-8 (here, he is speaking of his impending martyrdom)

6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.


And, no.  I don't feel you are a threat but that you are asking a question and seeking an answer and so am only trying to answer the question using the abilities God gave me.  Do I offend you?  I pray not. 


Here's a song for you from me by Nina Simone:

I pray you understand.


God bless you

[Rob, PGK]

Posted by: Rob

"Does your bible contain 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, The Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, additions to Esther, and the stories of Susanna and Bel and the Dragon which are included in Daniel? If not, then we don't use the same bible. We also, by the way, don't "believe in the bible" as you put it. I mean, of course we believe in it, there it is, you can't deny it's existence. We don't, however, worship it the way that many protestants do. We don't believe that it contains all the answers that we may need and we don't that it is the pillar and foundation of the truth, that is reserved for the church. The Bible is a tool, used by the Church, not the other way around. We believe this because, much like the Orthodox, our Church existed for over 3 centuries before the bible did."
===============================================

I never ONCE heard a Catholic  priest read from those books. When was the last time you heard readings from those books.?
Do you really think the book of "TOBIT" is any help to you? I dont think its inspired at all. In fact the book is hilarious.

Which of those books had a prophet chosen by GOD?

Sentence by sentence:

How many Catholic services have you been attended? We have them every day and the liturgical calendar resets every 3 years.

6 different times in June of 2009.

I "think" (not that it matters) that Tobit is a help to my Church.

Once again, Dan, what you "think" is irrelevant.

The book does hove some pretty wild events in it, much like Genesis, Exodus, well, just about every other book in the Old Testament. Not to mention quite a few in the New Testament.

I'm not sure, but I don't believe that a book having a "prophet of God" present in the story was a requirement when the Bible was Canonized by the Church.

[DAN1]

Posted by: Rob

"Does your bible contain 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, The Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, additions to Esther, and the stories of Susanna and Bel and the Dragon which are included in Daniel? If not, then we don't use the same bible. We also, by the way, don't "believe in the bible" as you put it. I mean, of course we believe in it, there it is, you can't deny it's existence. We don't, however, worship it the way that many protestants do. We don't believe that it contains all the answers that we may need and we don't that it is the pillar and foundation of the truth, that is reserved for the church. The Bible is a tool, used by the Church, not the other way around. We believe this because, much like the Orthodox, our Church existed for over 3 centuries before the bible did."
===============================================

I never ONCE heard a Catholic  priest read from those books. When was the last time you heard readings from those books.?
Do you really think the book of "TOBIT" is any help to you? I dont think its inspired at all. In fact the book is hilarious.

Which of those books had a prophet chosen by GOD?

Sentence by sentence:

How many Catholic services have you been attended? We have them every day and the liturgical calendar resets every 3 years.

6 different times in June of 2009.

I "think" (not that it matters) that Tobit is a help to my Church.

Once again, Dan, what you "think" is irrelevant.

The book does hove some pretty wild events in it, much like Genesis, Exodus, well, just about every other book in the Old Testament. Not to mention quite a few in the New Testament.

I'm not sure, but I don't believe that a book having a "prophet of God" present in the story was a requirement when the Bible was Canonized by the Church.

Sentence by sentence:

How many Catholic services have you been attended? We have them every day and the liturgical calendar resets every 3 years.

I attended over 1000 masses during my life time and also many masses in weddings, baptisms, confirmations & funerals.

6 different times in June of 2009.

I "think" (not that it matters) that Tobit is a help to my Church.

Which bit of TOBIT helps you? Some of it conflicts with the 4 Gospels.

Once again, Dan, what you "think" is irrelevant.

Why do you say that?

The book does hove some pretty wild events in it, much like Genesis, Exodus, well, just about every other book in the Old Testament. Not to mention quite a few in the New Testament.

Which book in N Testament would you compare to the book of TOBIT? Was TOBIT a prophet of GOD? if yes please show evidence.

I'm not sure, but I don't believe that a book having a "prophet of God" present in the story was a requirement when the Bible was Canonized by the Church.

You did say your not sure.

[Mere Nick]

All baptized Christians are Saints.

Yep.  The OP has been answered and there's really nothing left to be said.

[DAN1]

Is it Biblical for making dead people saints and praying to them ? The Bible says the dead KNOW NOTHING and they hear nothing and cannot give the living anything.

Why then pray to the dead?


Dan1

[desertknight]

I'm not calling you a liar, DAN, but if you've been to thousands of Catholic Masses and are unaware that the entire Bible is read continually in 3 year cycles, you were at the very least, asleep or not paying attention during any of them.  Books like Tobit are not only read, but Tobit 8:13-21 is a favorite reading at Catholic weddings.

FYI:  The Liturgy of the Word, i.e., the public reading of the Bible, the proclamation of the Word and the Liturgy of the Body, the celebration of Holy Eucharist, are the two halves that make up the whole of what is called the Mass, but I'm sure you knew that. [eye-roll]image[/eye-roll].  

[Rob, PGK]

Is it Biblical for making dead people saints and praying to them ? The Bible says the dead KNOW NOTHING and they hear nothing and cannot give the living anything.

Why then pray to the dead?


Dan1

Just scroll down and find where we have already had this discussion.

[DAN1]

Posted by: Rob

"Does your bible contain 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, The Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, additions to Esther, and the stories of Susanna and Bel and the Dragon which are included in Daniel? If not, then we don't use the same bible. We also, by the way, don't "believe in the bible" as you put it. I mean, of course we believe in it, there it is, you can't deny it's existence. We don't, however, worship it the way that many protestants do. We don't believe that it contains all the answers that we may need and we don't that it is the pillar and foundation of the truth, that is reserved for the church. The Bible is a tool, used by the Church, not the other way around. We believe this because, much like the Orthodox, our Church existed for over 3 centuries before the bible did."
===============================================

I never ONCE heard a Catholic  priest read from those books. When was the last time you heard readings from those books.?
Do you really think the book of "TOBIT" is any help to you? I dont think its inspired at all. In fact the book is hilarious.

Which of those books had a prophet chosen by GOD?

Sentence by sentence:

How many Catholic services have you been attended? We have them every day and the liturgical calendar resets every 3 years.

6 different times in June of 2009.

I "think" (not that it matters) that Tobit is a help to my Church.

Once again, Dan, what you "think" is irrelevant.

The book does hove some pretty wild events in it, much like Genesis, Exodus, well, just about every other book in the Old Testament. Not to mention quite a few in the New Testament.

I'm not sure, but I don't believe that a book having a "prophet of God" present in the story was a requirement when the Bible was Canonized by the Church.

Rob.

2 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


The books you mentioned in the Apocrypha, would you say they are inspired by God?

[Rob, PGK]

Posted by: Rob

"Does your bible contain 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, The Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, additions to Esther, and the stories of Susanna and Bel and the Dragon which are included in Daniel? If not, then we don't use the same bible. We also, by the way, don't "believe in the bible" as you put it. I mean, of course we believe in it, there it is, you can't deny it's existence. We don't, however, worship it the way that many protestants do. We don't believe that it contains all the answers that we may need and we don't that it is the pillar and foundation of the truth, that is reserved for the church. The Bible is a tool, used by the Church, not the other way around. We believe this because, much like the Orthodox, our Church existed for over 3 centuries before the bible did."
===============================================

I never ONCE heard a Catholic  priest read from those books. When was the last time you heard readings from those books.?
Do you really think the book of "TOBIT" is any help to you? I dont think its inspired at all. In fact the book is hilarious.

Which of those books had a prophet chosen by GOD?

Sentence by sentence:

How many Catholic services have you been attended? We have them every day and the liturgical calendar resets every 3 years.

6 different times in June of 2009.

I "think" (not that it matters) that Tobit is a help to my Church.

Once again, Dan, what you "think" is irrelevant.

The book does hove some pretty wild events in it, much like Genesis, Exodus, well, just about every other book in the Old Testament. Not to mention quite a few in the New Testament.

I'm not sure, but I don't believe that a book having a "prophet of God" present in the story was a requirement when the Bible was Canonized by the Church.

Rob.

2 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


The books you mentioned in the Apocrypha, would you say they are inspired by God?

DAN.

1 Timothy 3:15 (New King James Version)

15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

It doesn't matter what I say. My Church has found them profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...

[DAN1]

"It doesn't matter what I say. My Church has found them profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness..."

Those books contradict the 4 Gospels! How can you hold those views?

Do you or the church think those books are inspired by God?

[Selene]

"It doesn't matter what I say. My Church has found them profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness..."

Those books contradict the 4 Gospels! How can you hold those views?

Do you or the church think those books are inspired by God?

This just goes to show that you didn't even bother reading those books.  Those books was the Alexandrian cannon used by Jesus and His Apostles.   The books that your Bible consist of is the Palestinian cannon, which was developed toward the end of the first century AFTER Christ had already died and resurrected. 

[DAN1]

"It doesn't matter what I say. My Church has found them profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness..."

Those books contradict the 4 Gospels! How can you hold those views?

Do you or the church think those books are inspired by God?

This just goes to show that you didn't even bother reading those books.  Those books was the Alexandrian cannon used by Jesus and His Apostles.   The books that your Bible consist of is the Palestinian cannon, which was developed toward the end of the first century AFTER Christ had already died and resurrected. 

I have read those books when i was in my 40's.

Jesus / Apostles never once referred to those books. Jesus mostly referred to Isaiah and Daniel.

Which books in the Apocrypha did Jesus refer to? Can you show evidence in the New testament please?

Blessings

Dan

[Rob, PGK]

Anyway, here are many instances of references from non-canonical books:

Book of Tobit
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Tobit

    * Book (or Wisdom) of Ahikar referenced by Tobit 1:22, Tobit 2:10, Tobit 11:18, Tobit 14,10[23]

Sirach[24] (verse numbers vary slightly between versions)
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Syrach

    * Aesop's fable of The Two Pots referenced at Sirach 13:2-3[23]
    * The Egyptian Satire of the Trades, or another work in that tradition[25] referenced at Sirach 38:24-39:11

2 Maccabees
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2 Maccabees

    * "The archives" referenced by 2Maccabees 2:1[23]
    * Memoirs of Nehemiah referenced by 2Maccabees 2:13[23]
    * 'letters of the kings" referenced by 2Maccabees 2:13[23]
    * "five books by Jason of Cyrene" referenced by 2Maccabees 2:23: the author of 2 Maccabees here tells us that the work is abridged from the history by Jason.
    * "the king's letter" referenced by 2Maccabees 11:22[23]

[edit] New Testament references

    * A line from the Book of Enoch is quoted in the Epistle of Jude (Jude 14–15) almost verbatim. The work is believed by most scholars[who?] to be pseudepigraphal,[citation needed] but the author of Jude cites them as if they are Enoch's own words. The book of Enoch is in the Ethiopian Bible. Other references to the Book of Enoch are 1 Peter 3:19-20, Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4.[26] Likely the first three to five chapters of the book which are psalms are oral traditions of Enoch whereas the rest of the chapters, the book of watchers, were written by Maccabean Jews, due to the writing style and understanding of history. It should be noted nothing after chapter 3 is quoted in Canon which lends credence to the arguent most of the book was written after the Epistles quoted the legitimate Psalmic beginnings parts.[citation needed]
    * The Book of Jubilees is quoted in Romans 2:29, 9:24, 4:13.[27]
    * There are numerous references to the Testament of Abraham[28], Psalms of Solomon, the Greek Apocalypse of Baruch, Apocalypse of Ezra, Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs.[27]
    * The Assumption of Moses is possibly referenced in Jude 9.
    * The Life of Adam and Eve is quoted in 2 Corinthians 11:14.[27]
    * Lost Pauline letters
          o The first Epistle to Corinth[29] referenced at 1 Corinthians 5:9
          o The third Epistle to Corinth called Severe Letter referenced at 2 Corinthians 2:4 and 2 Corinthians 7:8-9
          o The Corinthian letter to Paul referenced at 1 Corinthians 7:1
          o The Earlier Epistle to the Ephesians referenced at Ephesians 3:3-4
          o The Epistle to the Laodiceans[30] referenced at Colossians 4:16
          o An epistle to the Thessalonians forged in Paul's name referenced at 2 Thessalonians 2:2
    * The Earlier Epistle of John[31] referenced at 3John 1:9
    * Missing Epistle of Jude[32] referenced in Jude 1:3
    * A number of classical Greek works are quoted, such as :
          o Epimenides Cretica Acts 17:28
          o Aratus Phaenomena 5 in Acts 17:28
          o Epimenides De oraculis in Titus 1:12 [33]
          o Euripides Bacchae 794 in Acts 26:14
          o Heraclitus in 2 Peter 2:22
          o Julianus Or. 8,246b in Acts 26:14
          o Menander Thais in 1 Corinthians 15:33 [34]
          o Thucydides II 97,4 in Acts 20:35.[27]
          o Plato's The Timaeus in Acts 17:24.[35]
    * The Apocryphon of Jeremiah is quoted in Matthew 27:9, Ephesians 5:14 and James 4:5
    * Sirach is quoted in James 1:19, Luke 1:52, Mark 4:5,16-17, Matthew 7:16,20 and Matthew 11:28[36]
    * The Apocalypse of Elijah is quoted in 1 Corinthians 2:9 according to Origen[27].
    * The apocryphal book of Moses is quoted in Galatians 6:15
    * Apocalypse of Elijah is quoted in Ephesians 5:14 according to Epiphanius of Salamis.
    * The Book of the Penitence of Jannes and Mambres is quoted in 2 Tim 3:8
    * Matthew 23:31 and 23:35 may have come from "apocryphal books" according to Origen.[37]