Continued From Slept with him

[EmbsComputerArt]

Paul is talking about any intercourse joining the flesh being a marriage.  That's what the word marriage means.  Two things coming together.

This happened in the case of Adam and Eve WITHOUT a ceremony.  Even though there is a legal document to signify divorce in the Bible there is no marriage certificate mentioned in the Bible and no marriage ceremony is ever described in the Bible.  These are cultural issues and not based upon the Bible.  No pastor or church authority was ever granted the authority from the word of God to perform a marriage ceremony.  That's a non-scriptural catholic tradition.

A man and a woman is FACTUALLY married and that marriage IS recognized by God by simply joining together.  That doesn't make people happy, but that's God's word.  People don't like the thought they are the husband or wife of anybody they have sex with and they don't like the idea a person can be married without a ceremony, but that's how God sees it.

When a man and woman have sex without prearrangement (called an espousal) it is called fornication, but that doesn't invalidate the marriage.  In fact, it FORCES them to marry.  Under Old Testament law if two people committed fornication they were forced to marry officially.  The man did this by PAYING for her dowry and no ceremony is mentioned.

This forced marriage (shotgun wedding) bound her to him PERMANENTLY so that he could NEVER divorce her because of the impropriety of the fornication.

I know it's a disturbing thought but every single person any person has sex with is their husband or wife and every partner thereafter is a case of adultery severing the initial marriage, deserving of capital punishment, and creating a new marriage, though they should be executed under the law.

The only ceremony Christ mentioned is CLINGING.  That's sex.  Christ SPECIFICALLY said that GOD JOINS THEM TOGETHER, not man.  Therefore ALL MARRIAGE CEREMONIES have NO Biblical basis and grant no power under God to allowing or disallow a union between a man and woman.

The man in fact LEAVES the authority of his household and joins unto his wife's so the arrangement is made between the girl's father and himself, not a pastor or priest or judge.  That's a Biblical truth that cuts against our understanding of marriage.

A proper marriage could be as simple as asking a father for a woman's hand, paying a proper dowry (1 Sam 18), and taking her that night without so much as a vow being taken.  The entire chapter of Deuteronomy 22 makes it clear that the arrangement is between the husband and the damsels father and does not involve any religious or civil authority until a dispute arises.  For example the case of fornication is given here..


Deut 22:28-29
28   If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29   Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
(KJV)

And divorce for the cause of fornication (where the man discovers a girl was not a virgin before she was married) is given here..

Deut 22:13-22
13   If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14   And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15   Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16   And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17   And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18   And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19   And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20   But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21   Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the wh*re in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

The chapter also covers cases of rape in which the man alone is put to death and the case of fornication while betrothed which is treated as a case of adultery in which both the man and woman are put to death and many other cases dealing with relationships.  

The law is clear on these matters.  Paul merely reinforced these principles as did Moses, and Christ.

Gen 2:22-25
22   And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23   And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24   Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25   And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
(KJV)


Matt 19:4-8
4   And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5   And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6   Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7   They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8   He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
(KJV)


1 Cor 6:13-20
13   Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14   And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15   Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16   What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17   But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18   Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19   What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20   For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
(KJV)


Matt 19:9
9   And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
(KJV)

In the case of the lady that posted that she had slept with a certain man she is now married to him.  The Bible is clear.  1 Corinthians 6 applies.  They are ONE FLESH and therefore married if only for lack of a better term.  GOD joined them together and MAN is not allowed to put them asunder.  It sucks, but that's God's law.  She is not allowed to simply walk away.  If she puts away her husband and joins to another it's adultery.  If she divorces him (walks away) she is NOT allowed to be joined to another because he's still alive and therefore she's still bound to him.

1 Cor 7:39-40
39   The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
40   But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.
(KJV)

If you still doubt it check out..


1 Cor 7:34
34   There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
(KJV)

That verse above PROVES that a virgin is the OPPOSITE of a wife.  Any girl that is not a virgin IS A WIFE to somebody.  I'm sorry people don't like this, but it's about time the church start teaching these verses as they are written instead of how they'd like them to be.

[EmbsComputerArt]

Sorry, I've got you pegged on this one.  Check it out....

Rape isn't covered under the "married to the fornicator", that's covered in Deut 22, which says that the rapist is put to death.  Check it out.

Deut 22:25-27
25   But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
26   But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27   For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
(KJV)

Since a women is only bound to her husband as long as he lives it wouldn't matter if you consider them married by the rape or not because the rapist is to be put to death annulling the marriage and your argument.  God had that covered about 3400 years before you were born in the law of Moses.  Check out what Paul said.

1 Cor 7:39
39   The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
(KJV)

What we are dealing with however is a non-forced fornication of a non-betrothed woman and that is covered in the next set of verses....

Deut 22:28-29
28   If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29   Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
(KJV)

If the girl is betrothed the case of fornication is handled as adultery, because a betrothal is considered a marriage BEFORE THE CEREMONY EVER TAKES PLACE.  Check out how adultery is handled and compare it to fornication with a betrothed woman.

Deut 22:22
22   If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
(KJV)

WITH

Deut 22:23-24
23   If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24   Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
(KJV)

So, once again, I'm right.  The Bible is clear on this matter, marriage is the union between man and woman WITHOUT a ceremony.  It's only considered fornication if it wasn't PREARRANGED with the father of the bride.  Marriage ceremonies have NOTHING to do with marriage.  Marriage ceremonies are not required according to the Bible.  They are CULTURAL TRADITION and they vary from cultural to culture.  They are simply a public profession of something that has already taken place upon espousal.  This is just like how baptism is a public profession of the faith we have placed in Christ.  It grants no special power or right, it is simply a ceremony.

Fornication is not simply "sex outside of marriage" because sex is what creates the marriage, that's what marriage means, the joining of two people physically.  That's how GOD defined it.  Check it out.

Mark 10:6-9
6   But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7   For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8   And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9   What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
(KJV)

It's not the marriage ceremony that grants the couple the right to have sex.  The father of the bride does.  Fornication is the union of two people WITHOUT PERMISSION from the one who has the right to give the bride away, which is the father, check it out...

1 Cor 7:37-40
37   Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.
38   So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
39   The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
40   But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.
(KJV)

If a person commits fornication they are REQUIRED under the law to marry officially, not by ceremony, but by paying a dowry to the father, and then they ARE NEVER ALLOWED TO DIVORCE.

Deut 22:28-29
28   If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29   Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
(KJV)

That's because the ONLY reason God allows divorce is if the husband discovers his wife committed FORNICATION BEFORE the marriage with another man.  In other words, he learns that the woman wasn't a virgin, but said she was.

Now we'll examine something churches also teach that is incorrect.  They say that you can divorce your wife for ADULTERY, but Christ said only for FORNICATION.  In cases of ADULTERY the adulterer is put to death with their adulterous partner annulling the marriage.  Check it out.

Matt 5:31-32
31   It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32   But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
(KJV)

WITH

Deut 22:13-24
13   If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14   And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15   Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16   And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17   And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18   And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19   And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20   But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21   Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22   If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
23   If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24   Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
(KJV)

WITH


Rom 7:1-3
1   Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2   For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3   So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
(KJV)

AND

1 Cor 7:39
39   The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
(KJV)

So it's pretty clear.  Sorry.  They are married.  God said so.

What needs to take place however is that the man needs to make things right with the father of the bride so the marriage can be official.  He needs to pay a proper dowry as under the law of Moses.  We need to start teaching these verses as written and not as we want them to be.  That's why Christ rebuke the Pharisees, they taught TRADITION, and not Bible.

Mark 7:13
13   Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
(KJV)

Mark 7:7-9
7   Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8   For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9   And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
(KJV)

Matt 15:3
3   But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
(KJV)

[lonegreywolf20]

Sorry, I've got you pegged on this one.  Check it out....

Rape isn't covered under the "married to the fornicator", that's covered in Deut 22, which says that the rapist is put to death.  Check it out.

Deut 22:25-27
25   But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
26   But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27   For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
(KJV)

Since a women is only bound to her husband as long as he lives it wouldn't matter if you consider them married by the rape or not because the rapist is to be put to death annulling the marriage and your argument.  God had that covered about 3400 years before you were born in the law of Moses.  Check out what Paul said.

1 Cor 7:39
39   The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
(KJV)

What we are dealing with however is a non-forced fornication of a non-betrothed woman and that is covered in the next set of verses....

Deut 22:28-29
28   If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29   Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
(KJV)

If the girl is betrothed the case of fornication is handled as adultery, because a betrothal is considered a marriage BEFORE THE CEREMONY EVER TAKES PLACE.  Check out how adultery is handled and compare it to fornication with a betrothed woman.

Deut 22:22
22   If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
(KJV)

WITH

Deut 22:23-24
23   If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24   Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
(KJV)

So, once again, I'm right.  The Bible is clear on this matter, marriage is the union between man and woman WITHOUT a ceremony.  It's only considered fornication if it wasn't PREARRANGED with the father of the bride.  Marriage ceremonies have NOTHING to do with marriage.  Marriage ceremonies are not required according to the Bible.  They are CULTURAL TRADITION and they vary from cultural to culture.  They are simply a public profession of something that has already taken place upon espousal.  This is just like how baptism is a public profession of the faith we have placed in Christ.  It grants no special power or right, it is simply a ceremony.

Fornication is not simply "sex outside of marriage" because sex is what creates the marriage, that's what marriage means, the joining of two people physically.  That's how GOD defined it.  Check it out.

Mark 10:6-9
6   But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7   For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8   And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9   What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
(KJV)

It's not the marriage ceremony that grants the couple the right to have sex.  The father of the bride does.  Fornication is the union of two people WITHOUT PERMISSION from the one who has the right to give the bride away, which is the father, check it out...

1 Cor 7:37-40
37   Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.
38   So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
39   The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
40   But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.
(KJV)

If a person commits fornication they are REQUIRED under the law to marry officially, not by ceremony, but by paying a dowry to the father, and then they ARE NEVER ALLOWED TO DIVORCE.

Deut 22:28-29
28   If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29   Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
(KJV)

That's because the ONLY reason God allows divorce is if the husband discovers his wife committed FORNICATION BEFORE the marriage with another man.  In other words, he learns that the woman wasn't a virgin, but said she was.

Now we'll examine something churches also teach that is incorrect.  They say that you can divorce your wife for ADULTERY, but Christ said only for FORNICATION.  In cases of ADULTERY the adulterer is put to death with their adulterous partner annulling the marriage.  Check it out.

Matt 5:31-32
31   It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32   But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
(KJV)

WITH

Deut 22:13-24
13   If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14   And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15   Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16   And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17   And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18   And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19   And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20   But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21   Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the wh*re in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22   If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
23   If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24   Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
(KJV)

WITH


Rom 7:1-3
1   Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2   For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3   So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
(KJV)

AND

1 Cor 7:39
39   The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
(KJV)

So it's pretty clear.  Sorry.  They are married.  God said so.

What needs to take place however is that the man needs to make things right with the father of the bride so the marriage can be official.  He needs to pay a proper dowry as under the law of Moses.  We need to start teaching these verses as written and not as we want them to be.  That's why Christ rebuke the Pharisees, they taught TRADITION, and not Bible.

Mark 7:13
13   Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
(KJV)

Mark 7:7-9
7   Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8   For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9   And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
(KJV)

Matt 15:3
3   But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
(KJV)

So is what you're saying throughout all this, that I am married to the woman I slept with before I became a Christian and married my wife?

Kind makes me wonder if I am truly saved or if that just means I am hellbound, even though since i became a Christian I have only been with my wife?

[vonny]

He's wrong, Lonegreywolf. A man can seduce a virgin, pay the dowry, and not be obligated to marry her if the father refuses.

If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. 17 If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

Exodus 22:16

I would ask how prostitutes could marry, having been 'joined' sexually to many men?

There is a law for the Levite priests that they could not marry non virgins, divorcees, widows or prostitutes. Prostitutes could marry, so I imagine that they were not condemned for having been 'married' to other men. That is where the other guy's argument fails for me.

[EmbsComputerArt]

You are absolutely correct, that the father does NOT HAVE to give permission for official marriage, as you noted...

Exod 22:16-17
16   And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
17   If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.
(KJV)

So that's correct, the father can refuse, but the endowment is MANDATORY, for it says "he shall surely endow her to be his wife."  Period.  That's BEFORE the father's permission is given.

In this case the difference between consent of the father or not is not whether they are ALLOWED TO MARRY OR NOT, it is WHAT IS PAID TO HIM AS AS DOWRY!  (For further information word dowry means payment for "endowment."  Meaning rights are given.  If rights were not given, it's fornication, if rights were given it is lawful marriage.)  Check it out...

If the father accepts the union the man pays the money given in Deut 22:28-29, which is NOT the dowry of virgins.  That's the dowry of fornicators!  That's it's PURPOSE!  The dowry of VIRGINS is given in Ex 22:16-17, as you've noted.

A dowry is mandatory whether the father wants it or not, because a UNION HAS TAKEN PLACE AND THE FATHER MUST BE COMPENSATED FOR LOSING A DAUGHTER.  If the father refuses the marriage, the dowry is the dowry of virgins as described in Exodus because the father refused to recognize the sin of his daughter and CONSIDERS her a virgin, but the UNION STILL TOOK PLACE, so a dowry MUST BE PAID. If the guy doesn't marry her NOBODY IS!  She's defiled and people know that.  The father needs compensation as though he LOST A DAUGHTER TO MARRIAGE.  That's the PURPOSE of dowries in the first place.  Sheesh.  This is not complicated people.  Check it out...

Deut 22:28-29
28   If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29   Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
(KJV)

Notice "shall be," not "could be" or "might be."  It says "she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days."  The marriage is mandatory in BOTH cases whether the father accepts or not.

The "shall" clause is a legal term meaning "non-conditional" and is a big boon in the gun-rights debate concerning concealed carry permits which are either "may issue" or "shall issue" depending on the state.  This is basic legal terminology.

To answer the only serious question I've seen on this subject, whores can marry, but for them to marry is a case of adultery (as was in the case of every client they had after the first.)  As I've already noted, to be joined to another after the first is a case of ADULTERY CREATING A NEW UNION, which is why a man could NEVER TAKE BACK A WIFE if he divorced her and she joined to another man during the divorce.  Check it out...

Deut 24:1-4
1   When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
2   And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
3   And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
4   Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
(KJV)

Luckily to answer the question directly we have a case in the Bible of an whore being married.  God used it as a sign OF SIN!!!  Check it out...

Hosea 1:2
2   The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
(KJV)

So once again it proves my point time.  A man and a woman joined together sexually are one flesh, the writings of PAUL PROVE IT, nobody has refuted that.  Marriage is a union of flesh.  Sometimes it's official, with the father's permission, sanctified and holy, sometimes it's not, called fornication, but the SAME RESULT IS ACHIEVED, which is the VERY REASON GOD'S WARNS US TO FLEE FORNICATION.

1 Cor 6:18
18   Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
(KJV)

Official marriage is one with the father's permission and never does a civil or ecclesiastical authority enter into the Bible's definition of marriage.  There is no Biblical prescription for a marriage ceremony.  That's handled at the cultural level, which varies and can be simple or complex.  Civil marriages are not required by God.  No marriage certificate was ever issued in the Bible.  Civil marriages only gain the recognition by the state of the union for CIVIL legal purposes.  Christians are supposed to handle every matter that they can within the body of Christ and not through the civil courts (1 Cor 6).  Civil unions therefore are not required nor forbidden by God.  And now that gay marriage is recognized in many places civil unions have no real meaning to God if they ever did now do they?  Traditionally if a couple lives together long enough they are CONSIDERED married by civil law in any case called "common law."  So at some point the civil authorities recognize that fornication becomes marriage.  They just get there slower than God does.

I'm not sure why this is such an issue.  It is basic Bible doctrine people that you would have learned simply by reading the Bible or sitting in a Bible believing church for less than a year.

Fornication is sex outside of official marriage, which is marriage by consent of the one that gives the bride away and adultery is sex outside of marriage after marriage and lusting after those that are married.  Once a person commits adultery they are be put to death because the husband can not take her back (or vice versa) and are bound to another, killing them severs the bond as would the death of your spouse.

I've laid out the verses and have so far seen none the contradict them, so why is this controversial?  Paul said it...

1 Cor 6:15-18
15   Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16   What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17   But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18   Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
(KJV)

That's the PROOF, RIGHT THERE.  Go ahead, contradict it.  If you join to a harlot YOU ARE ONE BODY.  PERIOD!  That's God's word!  I didn't say it, God did!  Paul cities "for two, saith HE, shall be one flesh."  Who's he?? GOD!!!  When did HE (God) say that?? When HE was talking about MARRIAGE!!!  Please people, put down your tradition and pick up the word of God!

Gen 2:23-25
23   And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24   Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25   And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
(KJV)

Adam never had a marriage ceremony.  He simply joined unto his wife.  Watch it now....

Gen 4:1
1   And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
(KJV)

Where's the marriage ceremony? WHERE!!!  I DEMAND TO SEE IT!!!  Was this fornication??  No, GOD JOINED THEM TOGETHER!  Adam simply knew Eve his wife; and she conceived.  Simple as that.  That's marriage people.  I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's the way it is.  God gave Eve away, he made her for Adam and AS THE FATHER of the bride would, gave her away, and Adam knew her.  No marriage ceremony, no fuss.  Bone of bone and flesh of flesh.  Married forever.

[EmbsComputerArt]

Oh yeah and one more thing...

Somebody asked, "So is what you're saying throughout all this, that I am married to the woman I slept with before I became a Christian and married my wife?  Kind makes me wonder if I am truly saved or if that just means I am hellbound, even though since i became a Christian I have only been with my wife?"

Yes, you were married to the first woman you had sex with, according to God, flesh of flesh, joined.  Now that you married another you have severed that bond in an act of adultery and joined to another creating a new union.  Now you are married to her and should always remain faithful.

But mostly to this I reply... "What in the hell are you talking about?  Salvation is by GRACE not works!"  If you THINK it's by works then YOU ARE NOT SAVED!  Get saved...  Check it out.

Eph 2:8-9
8   For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9   Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(KJV)

Rom 3:23-28
23   For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24   Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25   Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26   To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27   Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28   Therefore we conclude that a man is
(KJV)

Rom 10:9-10
9   That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10   For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(KJV)

Rom 10:13
13   For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(KJV)

I hope that helps.  Marriage HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION.  It is NOT A SACRAMENT LIKE THE CATHOLICS TEACH.  If it were, it would be listed as such in the Bible, which lists no such thing as a sacrament.  And if it were then all single catholic priests would be damned to hell wouldn't they?  The pope too huh?  Think it through.  That's the only reason I could figure you think marriage has anything to do with salvation, catholic teaching, but maybe you picked that up somewhere else?

[EmbsComputerArt]

Pasting cut off part of the verse, here's the rest...

Rom 3:27-28
27   Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28   Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(KJV)

Get saved!  Please.  Crazy for a Christian on a Christian message board to not be saved.  Faith, not works.  Trust Christ, not self righteousness.  You HAVE NO RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Isa 64:6
6   But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
(KJV)

Rom 10:3-10
3   For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4   For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5   For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6   But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7   Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8   But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9   That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10   For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(KJV)

[lonegreywolf20]

Pasting cut off part of the verse, here's the rest...

Rom 3:27-28
27   Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28   Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(KJV)

Get saved!  Please.  Crazy for a Christian on a Christian message board to not be saved.  Faith, not works.  Trust Christ, not self righteousness.  You HAVE NO RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Isa 64:6
6   But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
(KJV)

Rom 10:3-10
3   For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4   For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5   For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6   But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7   Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8   But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9   That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10   For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(KJV)

I was saved, back in December, but being a baby Christian I am still learning. I still don't understand much of what is said.

My wife's Church preaches everlasting life, but it doesn't mean you'll have everlasting life in Heaven as you can still go to hell if you're not completely right with God. You'll have ever lasting life there even if you're saved.

I ask these questions because I hear so many different Christian teachings and I get confused.

[EmbsComputerArt]

I see Lonegreywolf.  I think it's great to ask questions here.  And to post stuff too.  That's what message boards are for.  To talk things out.  I would recommend that you read through the book of Romans in the Bible and learn that salvation is by God's grace alone.  If we try to "be right with God" we will fail because we are sinners and even when we don't want to we still sin in one way or another.  If we have to be right with God to go to heaven we will all end up in hell.  Trusting in Jesus Christ, the man who was tempted like us, but never sinned, transfers his righteousness (his goodness) to us just like how he took our sin on the cross.  He takes our sin and we get his goodness.  Not because of what we do, but because of what he did.  That's salvation.  It's eternal life.  No beginning and no ending, like a line in geometry.  An arrow pointing both ways.  On the other hand everlasting life is like a ray in geometry.  It has a beginning but no end.  God gives us both when we trust him so that our past sins make no difference and our future sins make no difference.  That's what being saved really means.  Look at these verses closely and simply pray and ask God to give you salvation.  Trust him to do it.  That's his promise.  He WILL do it.  God doesn't lie.  The church you are going to is not teaching you the right things.  They are probably nice people and might be right about other things but they aren't teaching you what the Bible says about salvation.  Look at these verses and read the book of Romans to understand.  If you need a free Bible I have a pdf version on my website here:

http://members.cox.net/bbib12/digital%27king%27james%27bible.pdf

Here are some verses to look at...

Rom 3:10
10   As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(KJV)

Rom 3:23
23   For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(KJV)

Rom 5:8
8   But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
(KJV)

Rom 6:23
23   For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(KJV)

Rom 10:9-10
9   That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10   For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(KJV)

Rom 10:13
13   For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(KJV)

The name of the Lord is Jesus Christ.  He is called the Lord Jesus Christ for a reason.  Call upon his name.  If you ask for salvation from God in the name of Jesus Christ he can not refuse you.

John 16:23
23   And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
(KJV)

John 3:16-17
16   For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17   For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(KJV)

If you have any questions about the Bible or salvation please feel to ask me.  Even though the subject of marriage and fornication and all that gets heated the subject of salvation does not.  It's a message of love straight to us from God.  He's the one we are ultimately married to.  He's the one that died for us.  Like the verse says...

Eph 5:25-33
25   Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26   That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27   That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28   So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29   For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30   For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31   For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32   This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33   Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
(KJV)

[EmbsComputerArt]

I think I've said all that can be said on this subject without getting into the subject of marrying non-virgins, which is a different subject (but an important one approached by another poster.  As has been noted it is only strictly forbidden to Levities, showing what God's perfect law is verses what is simply acceptable to him.)

However in all of this, it's is most important to remember that Christ dealt with people that had committed sexual sins rather kindly.  He was harshest, not against those who committed fornication, adultery, or theft, or those who collected taxes (the worst of sinners), or winebibbers, but rather against the religious leaders that led people astray.  The way he dealt with sexual sin was as this..

John 8:3-11
3   And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4   They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5   Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6   This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7   So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8   And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9   And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10   When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11   She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
(KJV)

And as this...

John 4:1-42
1   When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2   (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
3   He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
4   And he must needs go through Samaria.
5   Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.
6   Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.
7   There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8   (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9   Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10   Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11   The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12   Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13   Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14   But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15   The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
16   Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
17   The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
18   For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
19   The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20   Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21   Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22   Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23   But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24   God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25   The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26   Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
27   And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?
28   The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
29   Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
30   Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.
31   In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.
32   But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
33   Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?
34   Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
35   Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
36   And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
37   And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
38   I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.
39   And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
40   So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41   And many more believed because of his own word;
42   And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

And general sinners as this...

Matt 9:10-13
10   And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11   And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12   But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13   But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
(KJV)

And as this

Luke 7:33-34
33   For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34   The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
(KJV)

and so on.  Christ's mercy extended well beyond what is needed to forgive sexual sins.  They are rather common in fact.  See this..

1 Cor 10:12-13
12   Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13   There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
(KJV)

It's important to know what the law of Moses gives specific commandments so that we can live more perfect lives, but it is God's mercy that gives salvation.  All those under the law are guilty before God.

James 2:10-13
10   For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11   For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12   So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13   For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
(KJV)

We are no longer under the law because we are crucified with Christ.

Rom 7:1
1   Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
(KJV)

Gal 2:20-21
20   I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21   I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(KJV)

Hopefully that leaves this subject on a positive spiritual note and not in the minutia of the law.

[k-pappy]

I am sorry that separating your post made you angry.  The topic had hijacked the thread so I separated them to keep the original thread on track and give you your own thread to discuss what you believe.

As far as mispelling the word "marriage," well, I hadn't had my coffee (that's my story and I'm sticking to it).



bond

[phoebe]

Two observations:

1)  If sex = marriage, then marriage = sex

2)  Scripture repeatedly uses marriage as the analogy of the relationship between God and His People.  SURELY, that relationship is more than one of physical [self]gratifcation, esp. in light of the fact that this relationship between God and mankind is spiritual.

The relationship of man and woman is not just the coming together, but the cementing together of that relationship, the connection being like that of a cluster of grapes, or a pair of shoes, in-step with each other, walking in the same direction, not with one shoe leading and the other being drug along behind.  That relationship is physical, mental, emotional, intellectual, spiritual.  All those things in balance.

[AvrilNYC]

The Old Testament is not to be taken seriously when it comes to social conventions, otherwise we would have to kill the son who does not obey his parents and the woman who wears pants.

That's why Jesus came to free us from the Old Law. C'mon guys are you Hassidic Jews or Christians???

[arleigh]

Isn't it interesting how on one hand we are giving advise on what God's law says and on the other declining it's weight .
I wish you boys would deside .
I thought you all said it is all God's word, what is going on here ?