Catholics praying to people they think are in heaven.

[Josiah]

You posted "Mary was not without sin because she needed the Saviour also" You might want to know that your guy Luther disagreed with you.

Martin Luther had the belief of Mary's Immaculate Conception, Luther's words follow:
* It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).
* She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).

This (Mary's sinless state) is a point Catholics and Luther agree and you disagree with both; and that's fine.

It is no wonder that Lutherans are sliding over with the RCC.

There is misinformation here....


1.  First of all, there IS no Lutheran dogma of The Immaculate Conception of Mary.   This is a very new dogma that is entirely unique to The Catholic Church alone.  It is absurd (and Catholics know it - but seem to often ignor it) to argue that just because Luther said something, ergo it's Lutheran dogma.  Luther said LOTS of things (what an understantment), very little of it is Lutheran doctrine (some of it is downright horrible).  

2.  It IS true that Luther personally (as well as most of the Lutheran Chruch Fathers) generally embraced the Marian views OF THEIR DAY, and this included the general view (pious opinion) that Mary was without original sin.   This view, however, is NEVER taught as doctrine (and certainly not dogma!) and is not so much as even mentioned in our Lutheran Confessions.  It is what traditional Protestants call "Pious Opinion."  This generally refers to a view that is not regarded as EITHER confirmed or denied by Scripture (and thus neither doctrine or heresy) BUT does have a broad, ecumenical, historic embrace.   Some Lutherans think this view qualifies as such (frankly, I'm not so sure since it's not really very historical or ecumenical - the lesser Orthodox view probably does qualify).  

The illogic of Mary in her immaculate conception is that in order for Christ to be sinless, Mary had to be sinless:  and what gets Mary's mother off?  In order for Mary to be sinless, Mary's mother had to be sinless:  in order for Mary's mother to be sinless, and so on and so on.  This is silly.

Frankly, I (a Lutheran) tend to agree with you...  




Now, to the topic, I don't KNOW whether it is okay to ask our brothers and sisters in Heaven to pray FOR us (in NO OTHER SENSE than if I asked you to pray for me).   Lutheranism disapproves of this praxis, but I'm not so sure it should.  But I think this thread is about a different issue:  the substantiation FOR the practice (and I think for many Protestants, the very common idea that those saints ANSWER the prayer - not God).  While I'm not "on board" that a PRACTICE must be taught or modeled in Scripture for it to be okay (we are talking PRAXIS here, not DOCTRINE), I think that IS the premise of this thread.




Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah






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