Is purgatory an indulgence?

[mclees8]

Ecumenism seeks to prove that the church is divided.
Now didn't the Apostles teach us to not be divided....or have divisions among us. They taught us to be One Body of Christ.

The Church outside of Peter's fold is divided.

Jesus told Peter to lead his sheep, and he is.

One shepherd, one flock.

There are sheep outside the flock, but they are not as safe.

What does this mean exactly?

Christ charged every disciple to lead his sheep. The leaders of the EO are genuine Successors to the that charge so how are they less safe?

Without the guidance of the Church an individual is more likely to fall into error. 

The Church conveys grace and Truth to those who abide faithfully within.

If you are in Christ you are in his flock.  If you are not in Christ you are in mortal danger. If you are in Christ then you are in the same flock as Peters but this is not just a denominational flock but the Body of Christs faithful. Mary chose to sit at the Lord feet and listen. This Jesus will never take away from us. Lets be faithful hearers and followers. No man is an island it is said but it is Christ who sleeps in the storm. Lets get in his boat.

God bless

[chestertonrules]

If you are in Christ you are in his flock.  If you are not in Christ you are in mortal danger. If you are in Christ then you are in the same flock as Peters but this is not just a denominational flock but the Body of Christs faithful. Mary chose to sit at the Lord feet and listen. This Jesus will never take away from us. Lets be faithful hearers and followers. No man is an island it is said but it is Christ who sleeps in the storm. Lets get in his boat.

God bless

Let's compare that view with scripture:


Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

[mclees8]

What a mind game we have hear.

There is none.  The Church is the Body of Christ.  It is the source of those graces we receive through the sacraments that assist us in our theosis, in our spiritual growth and salvation.  Salvation is only possible through the grace of Our Lord, Jesus Christ but no one on earth has any way of knowing with certainty who's name is written in the book of life, and who's name is not.  Let me give an example:  there may be those outside of the Church, say you are a young Pakistani tribesman, and you have never left your village.  The only thing you have ever been told about Christianity is negative and incorrect information.  You know no Christians and none live anywhere around you, now if you die, will God simply cast you into eternal hell because you had the misfortune of being ignorant of His Word?  We Catholics have no way to declare with certainty what will happen to you in this circumstance, but we know that God is merciful and will look into that person's heart and decide if they have kept the moral law, treated their neighbours with charity, honoured God as best they knew how, acted with the mercy that God will act with in judging them.  That person is "invincibly ignorant", they can't be held responsible for not knowing the truth of Christ.  It's hard enough for those of us who are baptised Christians.  That is all that is meant when the Church says that it does not know with certainty who is saved and who is not.  We know not, but we know God is merciful.  That does not mean that one can just feign ignorance and "get off the hook".  One cannot confuse 'invincible ignorance' with 'vincible stubbornness'.   We who are Christian and who are charged to be ONE Body and to be obedient to ONE authority, have little excuse.

So who is the body of Christ? You have singled out the RCC
Let me put another way. It is now believed that Protestants can be saved. Not invincibly ignorant

It has been said that, and quite condescending i might add,  that the church(the RCC) now says of Protestants.  for reasons of being less culpable then their reformation fathers and being brought up ignorant of the truth they can have salvation.

It hasn't been all that long that the RCC was adamant that there was no salvation outside of being  RC,  but now they toss a dog a bone. So who is the body of Christ? And what is the state of those who have communion out side of the RCC not having the substance changed by an official RC priest? What happens if one is excommunicated or violates RCC doctrine and teaching to then become Protestant?

Is not one intimidated by all this? That salvation is by affiliation to the worldly entity, and bound the the RC priest hood, rather than personal choice to believe in Christ. Who is the body of Christ?

You want salvation on your terms rather than Christ's?

Jesus got it wrong did he?

No not at all. There is no salvation outside of our faith in Christ. it is not outside our faith in the RCC which you always imply. I have asked many times what saves a man. You have institutionalized the church and made it into a thing. An organized entity called the RCC, and then imply there is no salvation out side the RCC.

[mclees8]

If you are in Christ you are in his flock.  If you are not in Christ you are in mortal danger. If you are in Christ then you are in the same flock as Peters but this is not just a denominational flock but the Body of Christs faithful. Mary chose to sit at the Lord feet and listen. This Jesus will never take away from us. Lets be faithful hearers and followers. No man is an island it is said but it is Christ who sleeps in the storm. Lets get in his boat.

God bless

Let's compare that view with scripture:


Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

dear sir i did not mean to imply that we do not listen to the church as long as it is true to Christ. You will note these verses tell us the apostles were sent  and they have given us the groundwork of our faith. So first listen to them and then measure truth by them, but it is Jesus that is our unsinkable ark.

Don't ever let anyone tell you that you only need to listen to them and never measure them by  the word.

God bless

[GabrieltheAngel]

If you are in Christ you are in his flock.  If you are not in Christ you are in mortal danger. If you are in Christ then you are in the same flock as Peters but this is not just a denominational flock but the Body of Christs faithful. Mary chose to sit at the Lord feet and listen. This Jesus will never take away from us. Lets be faithful hearers and followers. No man is an island it is said but it is Christ who sleeps in the storm. Lets get in his boat.

God bless

Let's compare that view with scripture:


Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

dear sir i did not mean to imply that we do not listen to the church as long as it is true to Christ. You will note these verses tell us the apostles were sent  and they have given us the groundwork of our faith. So first listen to them and then measure truth by them, but it is Jesus that is our unsinkable ark.

Don't ever let anyone tell you that you only need to listen to them and never measure them by  the word.

God bless

I'd rather measure them by the church, the word is only a supportive element of what Jesus created, a fruit of his church, not a replacement of it.

[mclees8]

If you are in Christ you are in his flock.  If you are not in Christ you are in mortal danger. If you are in Christ then you are in the same flock as Peters but this is not just a denominational flock but the Body of Christs faithful. Mary chose to sit at the Lord feet and listen. This Jesus will never take away from us. Lets be faithful hearers and followers. No man is an island it is said but it is Christ who sleeps in the storm. Lets get in his boat.

God bless

Let's compare that view with scripture:


Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

dear sir i did not mean to imply that we do not listen to the church as long as it is true to Christ. You will note these verses tell us the apostles were sent  and they have given us the groundwork of our faith. So first listen to them and then measure truth by them, but it is Jesus that is our unsinkable ark.

Don't ever let anyone tell you that you only need to listen to them and never measure them by  the word.

God bless

I'd rather measure them by the church, the word is only a supportive element of what Jesus created, a fruit of his church, not a replacement of it.

And you are setting yourself up for great deception. It was the apostles who were most closely associated with Christ and it was the apostles he sent. with out their teaching and there testimony we would not have a church. or any foundation for it. What if the apostles just went back to fishing. How do we know deception if we are not taught that we would be deceived. You don't think that word of mouth was going to hold to the truth for 2000 years unless truth was written and preserved for us.   


God bless

[winsome]

If you are in Christ you are in his flock.  If you are not in Christ you are in mortal danger. If you are in Christ then you are in the same flock as Peters but this is not just a denominational flock but the Body of Christs faithful. Mary chose to sit at the Lord feet and listen. This Jesus will never take away from us. Lets be faithful hearers and followers. No man is an island it is said but it is Christ who sleeps in the storm. Lets get in his boat.

God bless

Let's compare that view with scripture:


Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

dear sir i did not mean to imply that we do not listen to the church as long as it is true to Christ. You will note these verses tell us the apostles were sent  and they have given us the groundwork of our faith. So first listen to them and then measure truth by them, but it is Jesus that is our unsinkable ark.

Don't ever let anyone tell you that you only need to listen to them and never measure them by  the word.

God bless

I'd rather measure them by the church, the word is only a supportive element of what Jesus created, a fruit of his church, not a replacement of it.

And you are setting yourself up for great deception. It was the apostles who were most closely associated with Christ and it was the apostles he sent. with out their teaching and there testimony we would not have a church. or any foundation for it. What if the apostles just went back to fishing. How do we know deception if we are not taught that we would be deceived. You don't think that word of mouth was going to hold to the truth for 2000 years unless truth was written and preserved for us.   


God bless

But they didn't go back to fishing. They were the foundation of the Church (Eph 2:20), which is itself the pillar and foundation of truth (1Tim 3:15) and we know the truth from what they passed on by word of mouth and in writing (2 Thess 2:15).

Jesus promised the Church would be preserved from error by the Holy Spirit reminding the apostles of all that Jesus had taught them (Jn 14:26) and guide them into the truth in the future (Jn 16:13).

I believe Jesus fulfills his promises. You seem not to.

[GabrieltheAngel]

If you are in Christ you are in his flock.  If you are not in Christ you are in mortal danger. If you are in Christ then you are in the same flock as Peters but this is not just a denominational flock but the Body of Christs faithful. Mary chose to sit at the Lord feet and listen. This Jesus will never take away from us. Lets be faithful hearers and followers. No man is an island it is said but it is Christ who sleeps in the storm. Lets get in his boat.

God bless

Let's compare that view with scripture:


Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

dear sir i did not mean to imply that we do not listen to the church as long as it is true to Christ. You will note these verses tell us the apostles were sent  and they have given us the groundwork of our faith. So first listen to them and then measure truth by them, but it is Jesus that is our unsinkable ark.

Don't ever let anyone tell you that you only need to listen to them and never measure them by  the word.

God bless

I'd rather measure them by the church, the word is only a supportive element of what Jesus created, a fruit of his church, not a replacement of it.

And you are setting yourself up for great deception. It was the apostles who were most closely associated with Christ and it was the apostles he sent. with out their teaching and there testimony we would not have a church. or any foundation for it. What if the apostles just went back to fishing. How do we know deception if we are not taught that we would be deceived. You don't think that word of mouth was going to hold to the truth for 2000 years unless truth was written and preserved for us.   


God bless

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
(Mt 16:18-19)

[mclees8]

If you are in Christ you are in his flock.  If you are not in Christ you are in mortal danger. If you are in Christ then you are in the same flock as Peters but this is not just a denominational flock but the Body of Christs faithful. Mary chose to sit at the Lord feet and listen. This Jesus will never take away from us. Lets be faithful hearers and followers. No man is an island it is said but it is Christ who sleeps in the storm. Lets get in his boat.

God bless

Let's compare that view with scripture:


Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

dear sir i did not mean to imply that we do not listen to the church as long as it is true to Christ. You will note these verses tell us the apostles were sent  and they have given us the groundwork of our faith. So first listen to them and then measure truth by them, but it is Jesus that is our unsinkable ark.

Don't ever let anyone tell you that you only need to listen to them and never measure them by  the word.

God bless

I'd rather measure them by the church, the word is only a supportive element of what Jesus created, a fruit of his church, not a replacement of it.

And you are setting yourself up for great deception. It was the apostles who were most closely associated with Christ and it was the apostles he sent. with out their teaching and there testimony we would not have a church. or any foundation for it. What if the apostles just went back to fishing. How do we know deception if we are not taught that we would be deceived. You don't think that word of mouth was going to hold to the truth for 2000 years unless truth was written and preserved for us.   


God bless

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
(Mt 16:18-19)

And this proves what? Does this a change one thing that i said?

[GabrieltheAngel]

teaching and there testimony we would not have a church

I will build my church

Clear enough for you?

Read Maccabees some time, along the OP here regardless, this talks about Purgatory at greater length.  It's one of the books in the bible from the "original" cannon before the reformation.  And on that note, those of you that have the missing 7 books really are being short changed, there is some great wisdom to be gained within them.

[mclees8]

teaching and there testimony we would not have a church

I will build my church

Clear enough for you?

Read Maccabees some time, along the OP here regardless, this talks about Purgatory at greater length.  It's one of the books in the bible from the "original" cannon before the reformation.  And on that note, those of you that have the missing 7 books really are being short changed, there is some great wisdom to be gained within them.

I still don't see what you think you are trying to prove. I don't see anything to refute my statements. I have never read Maccabees. but I may do a little research. I do not know what reasoning there was to eliminate them, so I will have to take a little more look. Things like the writers and the time of there writing

I do know we have what is most important. I don't believe salvation hangs on maccabees

So i am going to emphasize to you one more time in the form of a question. Do you think that we could have held on to truth of what Christ and the apostles taught for 2000 years if it  were only passed down by word of mouth.

Why does even the Vatican have vast archives to preserve writings. Thank God thought our bible was not locked up there. It is still our most valuable record and measure of truth that has stood for 2000 years. Know one will be able to change history and truth.   But there are records in the Vatican we will never see yet they keep them and just don't read them and through them away. Why ? Same reason that I said we need our Bible. They are our link to the past and the truths it holds. But our Bible is much more than that. It contains the words of life and spirit.

God bless

[GabrieltheAngel]

These are your words:

we would not have a church


These are Jesus's words:

I will build my church

I don't know how much more I can spell it out, are you reading this?

Around 80 AD, the church figured out that Christ was not going to return in their life times, so decided it was necessary to write down all of the oral testimony that was passed down from generation to generation for preservations sake.  Part of this was the formation of all of the NT gospels, and some began with Mark, and were elaborated upon to convey the message in different context's and different people's being addressed.  Example, in Matthew his audience were primarly Jews that still have not converted, so he worded things differently then the other gospels, knowing that the jewish tradition has a different take.  We then come into the English translation, and there are many words that do not mean in our language, what was meant in the original, this is why deeper study is required then just reading on the direct surface of scripture.

Now, along your research, surely one could even use your logic and express only needing one of the gospels, but you gotta admit, having the rest certainly is better., this is the same with the OT, and why it's important not to forget about those books, here is the list:


Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Sirach
Baruch
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

Now, here is something else that we recently discovered with our Monday bible study, it mentions how the messiah would be called a Nazarene, in order to fufil the prophesy of it, yet nowhere in the OT is there a prophesy that clearly states this?  Why is that, it means there still are books in the OT that are lost., if not books part of books just lost.  I dont' know about you, but I want them back.

With the Catholic church hiding documents, that's only partially true, it's conspiracy to thing they are witholding parts of the original cannon, surely they are holding onto copies of the ones in error, Gospel of Thomas for example, for posterity sakes, but I'll take an example of something that I know they are keeping from us, for what ever reason.  With our Lady of Fatima,'s apparitions, Lucia, the one Mary spoke to, she was given information that upon prompting from the Church, was finally written down, Lucia did not want to disclose it, and after Pope John Paul read it, he deemed it not something to disclose to the general public.  Now, it makes you thing one of two things, first, perhaps it's a message only to and for the Pope, perhaps it's a message that we are simply not ready for, and to release it now would produce disastrous consequences.

I'll expand upon the latter, what if we went back in time 1000 years, and gave to the people advanced weaponry technology, surely they would destroy themselves in short order, it almost has me thinking, star trek, prime directive type of approach.

Now, enter into our modern times, where the state of the Protestant church no longer applies as it did, it's not the same church as it was, and still, we have important books eliminated from the bible itself to this day, and still, we have important traditions that are not accepted, and I'm going, there is no longer any base for resistance upon it.  I spent years and years almost exclusively studying and in fellowship with my protestant brethren, I owe it to them, after coming home to the Catholic church to build them up, as they did me, and it's through knowledge and truth before everything, if I can help tear down the boundaries that divide us, I will consider my time spent on this earth as being worthwhile.

[desertknight]

Why does even the Vatican have vast archives to preserve writings. Thank God thought our bible was not locked up there. It is still our most valuable record and measure of truth that has stood for 2000 years. Know one will be able to change history and truth.   But there are records in the Vatican we will never see yet they keep them and just don't read them and through them away. Why ?

There are practically no actual restricted archives of books or documents held by the Vatican.  There are two separate main depositories of texts held by the Vatican.  1.  The Vatican Library maintained by the Holy See itself.  2.  The Vatican Secret Archives maintained by the Pope directly.   The word "secret" in the title "Vatican Secret Archives" does not have the modern meaning: it indicates instead that the archives are the Pope's own, not those of a department of the Roman Curia. The word "secret" was used in this sense also in phrases such as "secret servants", "secret cupbearer", "secret carver".

They are open to the public and there are few restrictions.  Access is restricted to qualified scholars which is a standard practice of most archival information.  The books, documents, letters, etc. that are given to them are usually kept sealed for 75 years in order to protect the living.  That is also a standard practice with many archives.

[chestertonrules]

If you are in Christ you are in his flock.  If you are not in Christ you are in mortal danger. If you are in Christ then you are in the same flock as Peters but this is not just a denominational flock but the Body of Christs faithful. Mary chose to sit at the Lord feet and listen. This Jesus will never take away from us. Lets be faithful hearers and followers. No man is an island it is said but it is Christ who sleeps in the storm. Lets get in his boat.

God bless

Let's compare that view with scripture:


Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

dear sir i did not mean to imply that we do not listen to the church as long as it is true to Christ. You will note these verses tell us the apostles were sent  and they have given us the groundwork of our faith. So first listen to them and then measure truth by them, but it is Jesus that is our unsinkable ark.

Don't ever let anyone tell you that you only need to listen to them and never measure them by  the word.

God bless

I'd rather measure them by the church, the word is only a supportive element of what Jesus created, a fruit of his church, not a replacement of it.

And you are setting yourself up for great deception. It was the apostles who were most closely associated with Christ and it was the apostles he sent. with out their teaching and there testimony we would not have a church. or any foundation for it. What if the apostles just went back to fishing. How do we know deception if we are not taught that we would be deceived. You don't think that word of mouth was going to hold to the truth for 2000 years unless truth was written and preserved for us.   


God bless

The people that reject the Church are divided and lost.

You claim to follow Christ, but in reality you are leaning on your own understanding.

Paraphrasing GK Chesterton, our task is not to find a Church that agrees with us the join it.  Our task is to find the Church that is true and then agree with that Church.n

[mclees8]

If you are in Christ you are in his flock.  If you are not in Christ you are in mortal danger. If you are in Christ then you are in the same flock as Peters but this is not just a denominational flock but the Body of Christs faithful. Mary chose to sit at the Lord feet and listen. This Jesus will never take away from us. Lets be faithful hearers and followers. No man is an island it is said but it is Christ who sleeps in the storm. Lets get in his boat.

God bless

Let's compare that view with scripture:


Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

dear sir i did not mean to imply that we do not listen to the church as long as it is true to Christ. You will note these verses tell us the apostles were sent  and they have given us the groundwork of our faith. So first listen to them and then measure truth by them, but it is Jesus that is our unsinkable ark.

Don't ever let anyone tell you that you only need to listen to them and never measure them by  the word.

God bless

I'd rather measure them by the church, the word is only a supportive element of what Jesus created, a fruit of his church, not a replacement of it.

And you are setting yourself up for great deception. It was the apostles who were most closely associated with Christ and it was the apostles he sent. with out their teaching and there testimony we would not have a church. or any foundation for it. What if the apostles just went back to fishing. How do we know deception if we are not taught that we would be deceived. You don't think that word of mouth was going to hold to the truth for 2000 years unless truth was written and preserved for us.   


God bless

The people that reject the Church are divided and lost.

You claim to follow Christ, but in reality you are leaning on your own understanding.

Paraphrasing GK Chesterton, our task is not to find a Church that agrees with us the join it.  Our task is to find the Church that is true and then agree with that Church.n

I don't know Chesterton or follow him, I only follow Christ ,And you do not know what my understanding is.

But the word says" lean not upon your own understanding but in all your ways acknowledge Him and he shall direct they path" He puts my path before me

I joined Christs church over 30 years ago the day i asked Jesus to come into my life and heart. We are all his, and children of the promise.

God bless

[chestertonrules]

So i am going to emphasize to you one more time in the form of a question. Do you think that we could have held on to truth of what Christ and the apostles taught for 2000 years if it  were only passed down by word of mouth.

If the Truth is protected by the Holy Spirit then it doesn't matter how it is passed down.

When scripture tells us to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus, why do protestants claim that it says something different?

What oral tradition tells protestants to ignore these words?

[mclees8]

So i am going to emphasize to you one more time in the form of a question. Do you think that we could have held on to truth of what Christ and the apostles taught for 2000 years if it  were only passed down by word of mouth.

If the Truth is protected by the Holy Spirit then it doesn't matter how it is passed down.

When scripture tells us to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus, why do protestants claim that it says something different?

What oral tradition tells protestants to ignore these words?
[/quote

No doubt the Holy Spirit bears witness to Christ and his truth. But Gods word has been preserved in writing since Moses. it was Jesus who withstood satan by the written word. Saying It is also written. Jesus is the living word. The word of God is not left up to men to hold to by just word of mouth. Not all who say they are of Christ are led of the spirit. And that goes for clergy as well.

[chestertonrules]

No doubt the Holy Spirit bears witness to Christ and his truth. But Gods word has been preserved in writing since Moses. it was Jesus who withstood satan by the written word. Saying It is also written. Jesus is the living word. The word of God is not left up to men to hold to by just word of mouth. Not all who say they are of Christ are led of the spirit. And that goes for clergy as well.

Even the selection of God's word was accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Church.  God uses men to lead his people.  He always has.

If you find yourself contradicting those chosen by God to lead, then you have a problem.

Jesus started a Church, he didn't write a book.

[mclees8]

No doubt the Holy Spirit bears witness to Christ and his truth. But Gods word has been preserved in writing since Moses. it was Jesus who withstood satan by the written word. Saying It is also written. Jesus is the living word. The word of God is not left up to men to hold to by just word of mouth. Not all who say they are of Christ are led of the spirit. And that goes for clergy as well.

Even the selection of God's word was accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Church.  God uses men to lead his people.  He always has.

If you find yourself contradicting those chosen by God to lead, then you have a problem.

Jesus started a Church, he didn't write a book.

I don't know why you want to diminish what i am saying. Of Course God will always use men to do his will and declare his word. But is his word they declare. Yet you seem to want the ignore what we are warned of through out the new Testament, abut false teachers and prophets that will always be out there. How is it that we can measure them if it is not for knowing scripture. We are charged to know his word and not tossed about by every wind of doctrine. But if you want to blindly follow any man who claims he is a man of God then that is your prerogative. I know when a man teaches truth because I have spent much time in His word and also many others. this is why I will withstand you as a foolish man If you want to put  His word aside to just blindly follow any man who sways people with fine words, well I have already stated my opinion. 

God bless

[Macrina]

This thread has taken on a new life on the subject of scripture and fallible men?
OFF TOPIC   

[GabrieltheAngel]

No doubt the Holy Spirit bears witness to Christ and his truth. But Gods word has been preserved in writing since Moses. it was Jesus who withstood satan by the written word. Saying It is also written. Jesus is the living word. The word of God is not left up to men to hold to by just word of mouth. Not all who say they are of Christ are led of the spirit. And that goes for clergy as well.

Even the selection of God's word was accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Church.  God uses men to lead his people.  He always has.

If you find yourself contradicting those chosen by God to lead, then you have a problem.

Jesus started a Church, he didn't write a book.

I don't know why you want to diminish what i am saying. Of Course God will always use men to do his will and declare his word. But is his word they declare. Yet you seem to want the ignore what we are warned of through out the new Testament, abut false teachers and prophets that will always be out there. How is it that we can measure them if it is not for knowing scripture. We are charged to know his word and not tossed about by every wind of doctrine. But if you want to blindly follow any man who claims he is a man of God then that is your prerogative. I know when a man teaches truth because I have spent much time in His word and also many others. this is why I will withstand you as a foolish man If you want to put  His word aside to just blindly follow any man who sways people with fine words, well I have already stated my opinion. 

God bless

Scripture does help, believe me, particularly where it mentions how a teacher will be proved, or disproved by the fruits he bears.  It's actually pretty easy even without scripture to see that one, you know, the feel good pastors that live lavish lifestyles, while their people are spiritually starving.  We have so, so many false teachers these days, it's just unreal how many people are falling for their tactics.  I guess that's why Jesus keeps telling us about people being blind and deaf.  Why do we put up with it?  It's because we don't want to face ourselves, we don't want to humble ourselves, we want the world and the word at the same time, you can't have both, you cannot serve two masters.

[mclees8]

No doubt the Holy Spirit bears witness to Christ and his truth. But Gods word has been preserved in writing since Moses. it was Jesus who withstood satan by the written word. Saying It is also written. Jesus is the living word. The word of God is not left up to men to hold to by just word of mouth. Not all who say they are of Christ are led of the spirit. And that goes for clergy as well.

Even the selection of God's word was accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Church.  God uses men to lead his people.  He always has.

If you find yourself contradicting those chosen by God to lead, then you have a problem.

Jesus started a Church, he didn't write a book.

I don't know why you want to diminish what i am saying. Of Course God will always use men to do his will and declare his word. But is his word they declare. Yet you seem to want the ignore what we are warned of through out the new Testament, abut false teachers and prophets that will always be out there. How is it that we can measure them if it is not for knowing scripture. We are charged to know his word and not tossed about by every wind of doctrine. But if you want to blindly follow any man who claims he is a man of God then that is your prerogative. I know when a man teaches truth because I have spent much time in His word and also many others. this is why I will withstand you as a foolish man If you want to put  His word aside to just blindly follow any man who sways people with fine words, well I have already stated my opinion. 

God bless

Scripture does help, believe me, particularly where it mentions how a teacher will be proved, or disproved by the fruits he bears.  It's actually pretty easy even without scripture to see that one, you know, the feel good pastors that live lavish lifestyles, while their people are spiritually starving.  We have so, so many false teachers these days, it's just unreal how many people are falling for their tactics.  I guess that's why Jesus keeps telling us about people being blind and deaf.  Why do we put up with it?  It's because we don't want to face ourselves, we don't want to humble ourselves, we want the world and the word at the same time, you can't have both, you cannot serve two masters.

I don't know why you want to diminish what i am saying. Of Course God will always use men to do his will and declare his word. But is his word they declare. Yet you seem to want the ignore what we are warned of through out the new Testament, abut false teachers and prophets that will always be out there. How is it that we can measure them if it is not for knowing scripture. We are charged to know his word and not tossed about by every wind of doctrine. But if you want to blindly follow any man who claims he is a man of God then that is your prerogative. I know when a man teaches truth because I have spent much time in His word and also many others. this is why I will withstand you as a foolish man If you want to put  His word aside to just blindly follow any man who sways people with fine words, well I have already stated my opinion. 

God bless
[/quote]

Scripture does help, believe me, particularly where it mentions how a teacher will be proved, or disproved by the fruits he bears.  It's actually pretty easy even without scripture to see that one, you know, the feel good pastors that live lavish lifestyles, while their people are spiritually starving.  We have so, so many false teachers these days, it's just unreal how many people are falling for their tactics.  I guess that's why Jesus keeps telling us about people being blind and deaf.  Why do we put up with it?  It's because we don't want to face ourselves, we don't want to humble ourselves, we want the world and the word at the same time, you can't have both, you cannot serve two masters.
[/quote]

I could not agree with you more but I see the word as much more than just a help, but it is life to all who have opened their heats to receive it. Life for all who seek after knowledge and understanding of Gods will and plan for us 
Catholic's put down sola scriptura.. For Me I think we lose why it is so important for us. I will always put more faith in Gods word over men. What it teaches is how the Holy spirit will change and direct our life from some one who just reads to someone who's life begins to change and reflect what it says. Christ likeness. If someone preaches about what it says and is truly led of the spirit they are also effected  because it is powerful to the pulling down of strongholds. If a man then hears the word and dose not become a doer of it then he is a man who hears but can not hear ands sees but cannot see. These are the very words of Christ.

If the apostles who spoke word of mouth did not also write it the word of
God would have been lost to corrupt men. Even so corruption still works in the church, and many are so easily led astray to follow false doctrines and idealistic beliefs. They heap to them selves teachers having itching ears. You are right we cannot serve two masters.

Some time back after I developed heart problems I was expressing
Some of my wishes in the event of my untimely departure to my son -in- law who is a good Catholic man  He said to me to write them down and be specific so that there could be no misunderstanding or confusion after I was gone. This is important for the whole family. For the same reason it was not enough to just preach and teach by word of mouth. There must be no confusion for future generations of what God's  will and  is for his people. It would only be chaos other wise.

God bless

[GabrieltheAngel]

Well, nowhere in the bible does it support Sola Scripture, in fact just the opposite:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 >>
   
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Which is why it's important to expand your horizons, then to add onto this one, most that believe Sola Scripture technically don't even follow that, more like Sola Partial Scripture, for their bibles are missing books from the original cannon.

I also want to expand upon this one, along that there is even yet more then just what the Catholic church teaches supports and documents, there are some excellent resources written by Protestant authors, I don't necessarily believe 100% of what's written, but the bulk of the messages are inspiring, one comes to mind called "The Invisible War" by Chip Ingram, it's about spiritual warfare, and makes an excellent primer for those in battle, and seeking to become more effective at it. 

You see, I can send a message to both sides of the faithful at once, and if both sides move forward, ridding themselves of their blinders, we'll see our combined efforts to be fruitful, rather then opposed which are not.

[mclees8]

Well, nowhere in the bible does it support Sola Scripture, in fact just the opposite:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 >>
   
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Which is why it's important to expand your horizons, then to add onto this one, most that believe Sola Scripture technically don't even follow that, more like Sola Partial Scripture, for their bibles are missing books from the original cannon.

I also want to expand upon this one, along that there is even yet more then just what the Catholic church teaches supports and documents, there are some excellent resources written by Protestant authors, I don't necessarily believe 100% of what's written, but the bulk of the messages are inspiring, one comes to mind called "The Invisible War" by Chip Ingram, it's about spiritual warfare, and makes an excellent primer for those in battle, and seeking to become more effective at it. 

You see, I can send a message to both sides of the faithful at once, and if both sides move forward, ridding themselves of their blinders, we'll see our combined efforts to be fruitful, rather then opposed which are not.

Your verse from 2 Thess 2:15 is a highly misused verse here. It was Paul who made this statement while the apostles were still with us and the people he made this statement to were of that time. It was them the teaching was passed on to The apostles not only taught word of mouth but also wrote the epistles that out lived them. and were passed down   The apostles are not with us today to pass their words verbally but their writings are. So this verse is misquoted.

God bless

[AvrilNYC]

The whole Luther's theory to support Sola Scriptura was that the faithful somehow will be able to interpret Scriptures in a consistent way - 'cause scripture is somehow self-explanatory/clear.

Well as we know that didn't happen. There are 500+ competing Protestant sects with contradicitng interpretations of Scripture. Which proves that Scripture alone is NOT enough.

If the Protestants had been able to achieve some semblance of consistency in how they understand the Bible, then their theory would have some validity. But in practice, every bozo, every ignorant every delusional comes up with his own unique interpretation of what the Bible reaaaally means on key issues like who is saved, how one is saved, do we have free-will, etc

So in practice Sola Scriptura has failed. It has created a Tower of Babel in dogmas

[GabrieltheAngel]

Well, nowhere in the bible does it support Sola Scripture, in fact just the opposite:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 >>
   
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Which is why it's important to expand your horizons, then to add onto this one, most that believe Sola Scripture technically don't even follow that, more like Sola Partial Scripture, for their bibles are missing books from the original cannon.

I also want to expand upon this one, along that there is even yet more then just what the Catholic church teaches supports and documents, there are some excellent resources written by Protestant authors, I don't necessarily believe 100% of what's written, but the bulk of the messages are inspiring, one comes to mind called "The Invisible War" by Chip Ingram, it's about spiritual warfare, and makes an excellent primer for those in battle, and seeking to become more effective at it. 

You see, I can send a message to both sides of the faithful at once, and if both sides move forward, ridding themselves of their blinders, we'll see our combined efforts to be fruitful, rather then opposed which are not.

Your verse from 2 Thess 2:15 is a highly misused verse here. It was Paul who made this statement while the apostles were still with us and the people he made this statement to were of that time. It was them the teaching was passed on to The apostles not only taught word of mouth but also wrote the epistles that out lived them. and were passed down   The apostles are not with us today to pass their words verbally but their writings are. So this verse is misquoted.

God bless

If you are going to counter my statement in scripture, do so while quoting another my friend...otherwise it's just man's words alone......

[mclees8]

Well, nowhere in the bible does it support Sola Scripture, in fact just the opposite:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 >>
   
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Which is why it's important to expand your horizons, then to add onto this one, most that believe Sola Scripture technically don't even follow that, more like Sola Partial Scripture, for their bibles are missing books from the original cannon.

I also want to expand upon this one, along that there is even yet more then just what the Catholic church teaches supports and documents, there are some excellent resources written by Protestant authors, I don't necessarily believe 100% of what's written, but the bulk of the messages are inspiring, one comes to mind called "The Invisible War" by Chip Ingram, it's about spiritual warfare, and makes an excellent primer for those in battle, and seeking to become more effective at it. 

You see, I can send a message to both sides of the faithful at once, and if both sides move forward, ridding themselves of their blinders, we'll see our combined efforts to be fruitful, rather then opposed which are not.

Your verse from 2 Thess 2:15 is a highly misused verse here. It was Paul who made this statement while the apostles were still with us and the people he made this statement to were of that time. It was them the teaching was passed on to The apostles not only taught word of mouth but also wrote the epistles that out lived them. and were passed down   The apostles are not with us today to pass their words verbally but their writings are. So this verse is misquoted.

God bless

If you are going to counter my statement in scripture, do so while quoting another my friend...otherwise it's just man's words alone......

Im sorry if that offends Im just using common sense application. You want this verse to say what you want it to say but in reality it does does make your case. it takes more than just spoken words to keep Gods message through the centuries. We are only men. But the word of God is the most powerful force on earth.  As Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away. The word also says " thy words have I hid in my heart that i may not sin against thee."

As i have said before even Jesus was tempted As Satan temps all of us, yet being the son of God even he used the written word against him. How much more so then should we rely on the written word.
God bless

[mclees8]

Im sorry if that offends Im just using common sense application. You want this verse to say what you want it to say but in reality it does does make your case. it takes more than just spoken words to keep Gods message through the centuries. We are only men. But the word of God is the most powerful force on earth.  As Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away. The word also says " thy words have I hid in my heart that i may not sin against thee."

Oops sorry for the bluper. It should read " but in reality it does not make your case"

[AvrilNYC]

I wonder how mclees can believe in the concept of Trinity since it's not in the Bible??? Well by trusting the Tradition of the Catholic Church and the Early Fathers who articulated it!!

Ohhh mclees you do trust the Church Tradition, you believe in the Trinity, you believe that Jesus is homoousios to the Father, you believe that the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and the Son and is one with them - although these core dogmas are not in your Bible.

Thanks for trusting our Tradition mclees

[mclees8]

I wonder how mclees can believe in the concept of Trinity since it's not in the Bible??? Well by trusting the Tradition of the Catholic Church and the Early Fathers who articulated it!!

Ohhh mclees you do trust the Church Tradition, you believe in the Trinity, you believe that Jesus is homoousios to the Father, you believe that the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and the Son and is one with them - although these core dogmas are not in your Bible.

Thanks for trusting our Tradition mclees

Dear sir it does not take church tradition to believe in the trinity. It is revealed in scripture. Not in just a certain verse. We only have to read the book of John. First Jesus is spoken of as the son of God. So we have two people of the Godhead right off. Then Jesus tells of the Holy Spirit, also called the Holy Ghost whom he said he would send. From where? from Heaven of course. It is not hard to figure that the Father, the So, and the Holy Ghost are three people of the Godhead. So this is in the Bible You must have over sighted it.

God bless

[AvrilNYC]

I wonder how mclees can believe in the concept of Trinity since it's not in the Bible??? Well by trusting the Tradition of the Catholic Church and the Early Fathers who articulated it!!

Ohhh mclees you do trust the Church Tradition, you believe in the Trinity, you believe that Jesus is homoousios to the Father, you believe that the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and the Son and is one with them - although these core dogmas are not in your Bible.

Thanks for trusting our Tradition mclees

Dear sir it does not take church tradition to believe in the trinity. It is revealed in scripture. Not in just a certain verse. We only have to read the book of John. First Jesus is spoken of as the son of God. So we have two people of the Godhead right off. Then Jesus tells of the Holy Spirit, also called the Holy Ghost whom he said he would send. From where? from Heaven of course. It is not hard to figure that the Father, the So, and the Holy Ghost are three people of the Godhead. So this is in the Bible You must have over sighted it.

God bless

mclees of course the concept of Trinity has Biblical support, but it took the Church Fathers a heresy (Arianism) and 300 years of Bible study, helped by the Holy Spirit, to fully develop it. After all, that's what Church Tradition is mclees, the spirit filled interpretation of God's Word by the Church Fathers. Every single Catholic dogma is supported by the Bible.

You are being dishonest in claiming that the Son being homoousios to the Father is obvious by the Gospel of John. In fact John in 14:28 has Jesus stating "The Father is greater than I", that could seem to contradict their equality. It is thanks to the early (Orthodox and Catholic) Church Fathers that the Church has interpreted the Gospels to mean that the Son and the Father are Homoousioi (of the same substance). It was not obvious to the masses then, and it wouldn't have been today without the guidance of the Church

Now be honest and admit that if you were living at 200 AD (before the Nicene Creed was developed) you would not have been able to arrive at the dogma of Trinity. Of course, now that you read it, it seems obvious to you, but it not at all obvious before it was developed by the Church. Which is why Arius was so popular among the Sola Scriptura bozos of his time.

Mclees, if the Bible was obvious to interpret, then how do you explain the 500+ conflicting Protestant dogmas?? Every Protestant bozo has his own interpretation which contradicts every other Protestant bozo's interpretation.

The only things that most Protestants agree, are the dogmas that the early Fathers developed (like the Trinity) and which books are considered Scripture (which the Early Fathers compiled)

[GabrieltheAngel]

I wonder how mclees can believe in the concept of Trinity since it's not in the Bible??? Well by trusting the Tradition of the Catholic Church and the Early Fathers who articulated it!!

Ohhh mclees you do trust the Church Tradition, you believe in the Trinity, you believe that Jesus is homoousios to the Father, you believe that the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and the Son and is one with them - although these core dogmas are not in your Bible.

Thanks for trusting our Tradition mclees

Dear sir it does not take church tradition to believe in the trinity. It is revealed in scripture. Not in just a certain verse. We only have to read the book of John. First Jesus is spoken of as the son of God. So we have two people of the Godhead right off. Then Jesus tells of the Holy Spirit, also called the Holy Ghost whom he said he would send. From where? from Heaven of course. It is not hard to figure that the Father, the So, and the Holy Ghost are three people of the Godhead. So this is in the Bible You must have over sighted it.

God bless

In Scripture, prove that the Holy Spirit is also God, and not simply an angel, or power bestowed upon us...  Prove to us how Jesus calls himself the Son, but not God, you form your conclusion, keeping this as well, within scripture.

[mclees8]

I wonder how mclees can believe in the concept of Trinity since it's not in the Bible??? Well by trusting the Tradition of the Catholic Church and the Early Fathers who articulated it!!

Ohhh mclees you do trust the Church Tradition, you believe in the Trinity, you believe that Jesus is homoousios to the Father, you believe that the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and the Son and is one with them - although these core dogmas are not in your Bible.

Thanks for trusting our Tradition mclees

Dear sir it does not take church tradition to believe in the trinity. It is revealed in scripture. Not in just a certain verse. We only have to read the book of John. First Jesus is spoken of as the son of God. So we have two people of the Godhead right off. Then Jesus tells of the Holy Spirit, also called the Holy Ghost whom he said he would send. From where? from Heaven of course. It is not hard to figure that the Father, the So, and the Holy Ghost are three people of the Godhead. So this is in the Bible You must have over sighted it.

God bless

In Scripture, prove that the Holy Spirit is also God, and not simply an angel, or power bestowed upon us...  Prove to us how Jesus calls himself the Son, but not God, you form your conclusion, keeping this as well, within scripture.

I find it hard to believe that it took a counsel over three hundred years to interpret the trinity. Do you mean to say that even the apostles did not understand. What do we know. We know that the messiah was prophesied and the apostles both walked with Him and bore witness to Christ. It was Peter who first said of Jesus, " thou art the Christ the Son of the living God

[mclees8]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
The Holy Bible 

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The Holy Bible 

In all the papacy claims of its position have they not robbed Christ?

[AvrilNYC]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
The Holy Bible 

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The Holy Bible 

In all the papacy claims of its position have they not robbed Christ?

mclees,

Two point to clarify. I did not call all Protestant bozos, only those who are delusional enough that they think they can create their own personal interpretation of the Bible. If a Catholic or an Orthodox pretends to do that, as far as I'm concerned, he's a bozo too.

Second, Catholics (my-self included) and their Church do not deny or diminish the primary importance of Scripture. Scripture, for the Catholic Church, is paramount. Having said that, Church Tradition, through the help of the Holy Spirit, helps us interpret the Bible correctly. That's all I said.