For Paul baptism was a sacrament, not just a statement to the community

[AvrilNYC]

see Romans 6

3 Know you not that all we who are baptized in Christ Jesus are baptized in his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.. 8 Now, if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ. 9 Knowing that Christ, rising again from the dead, dies now no more. Death shall no more have dominion over him. 10 For in that he died to sin, he died once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus..

[stevehut]

Avril, I think I agree with your general conclusions here,   but some people might argue based on your choice of words.

In Catholicism, Orthodody, and other denom's, a "sacrament" implies that the physical materials of the rite (such as water) are intrinsically holy.  This is how they rationalize baptizing faithless people such as infants: they believe that the water itself saves.  And that matter, I couldn't disagree more.  The broader Bible model requires faith and repentance.

[AvrilNYC]

Avril, I think I agree with your general conclusions here,   but some people might argue based on your choice of words.

In Catholicism, Orthodody, and other denom's, a "sacrament" implies that the physical materials of the rite (such as water) are intrinsically holy.  This is how they rationalize baptizing faithless people such as infants: they believe that the water itself saves.  And that matter, I couldn't disagree more.  The broader Bible model requires faith and repentance.

Did Paul anywhere state that faith is required before baptism? We have examples in the Acts of people who believe and are baptized with their whole families, without stating whether their families believed or not

Now I'm not saying there's anything wrong with adult baptism, the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are doing it too. I'm just saying that baptism, adults or infant, is a Sacrament .

No, Catholic and Orthodox do not believe that Baptism saves forever. As the baptised person grows they can lose the salvation through their sins and/or lack of faith. Catholic and Orthodox require faith and repentance too for salvation, as soon as a person develops consciousness and will

For Catholics Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit - not the completion (salvation forever) of  Christian life, but the beginning.

For Catholics in infant Baptism...Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. the catechism has its proper place here..

The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.

By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ." Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."

[stevehut]

1- Did Paul anywhere state that faith is required before baptism?

2- We have examples in the Acts of people who believe and are baptized with their whole families, without stating whether their families believed or not

3- No, Catholic and Orthodox do not believe that Baptism saves forever.

1- Actually, my comment was about the broader record of the Bible, not just Paul.  But since you asked:

Colossians 2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

And Peter at Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized..."

And Jesus at Mark 16:16 "Who believes and is baptized will be saved"

2- I don't think any writer, anywhere, feels the need to repeat every detail in every anecdote.  But again, since you brought it up: Paul and Silas told the jailer,  "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."  It says they needed to believe first.

3- I don't recall making such a claim, Avril.   Who/what are you arguing against here?

[AvrilNYC]

1- Did Paul anywhere state that faith is required before baptism?

2- We have examples in the Acts of people who believe and are baptized with their whole families, without stating whether their families believed or not

3- No, Catholic and Orthodox do not believe that Baptism saves forever.

1- Actually, my comment was about the broader record of the Bible, not just Paul.  But since you asked:

Colossians 2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

And Peter at Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized..."

And Jesus at Mark 16:16 "Who believes and is baptized will be saved"

2- I don't think any writer, anywhere, feels the need to repeat every detail in every anecdote.  But again, since you brought it up: Paul and Silas told the jailer,  "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."  It says they needed to believe first.

3- I don't recall making such a claim, Avril.   Who/what are you arguing against here?

I'm not arguing just clarifying. I think we agree that for an adult (or a teenager even), baptism without faith is not enough for salvation. Peter (and Paul and Silas) were talking to adults, so naturally repentance first, before baptism, is necessary.

[fish153]

see Romans 6

3 Know you not that all we who are baptized in Christ Jesus are baptized in his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.. 8 Now, if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ. 9 Knowing that Christ, rising again from the dead, dies now no more. Death shall no more have dominion over him. 10 For in that he died to sin, he died once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus..

We need to clarify what Paul is speaking about.  What Baptism is he referring to?  Note that Titus says we are baptized with the Spirit when we are saved---and Peter also states that we are "washed" by the Word of God when we believe.

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.(Titus 3:3-7)

In Romans 6 Paul is referring to what has happened to believers due to being washed clean by the Spirit, and raised to newness of life.  He is not referring to a "sacrament", but to a completely changed life in the Spirit.

[AvrilNYC]

see Romans 6

3 Know you not that all we who are baptized in Christ Jesus are baptized in his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.. 8 Now, if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ. 9 Knowing that Christ, rising again from the dead, dies now no more. Death shall no more have dominion over him. 10 For in that he died to sin, he died once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus..

We need to clarify what Paul is speaking about.  What Baptism is he referring to?  Note that Titus says we are baptized with the Spirit when we are saved---and Peter also states that we are "washed" by the Word of God when we believe.

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.(Titus 3:3-7)

In Romans 6 Paul is referring to what has happened to believers due to being washed clean by the Spirit, and raised to newness of life.  He is not referring to a "sacrament", but to a completely changed life in the Spirit.

you added the word "believers" to make the text fit your dogma. The baptism has the same value for everyone who does not reject Christ. Obviously infants do not reject Christ. Obviously, if someone is talking to adults, he will call them believers, that does not mean that baptism does not have salvation value for infants.

Since the 2nd century the unified Church had been baptising adults and infants. Do you mean to say that baptising infants is useless?? and that the early Fathers were clueless??

[fish153]

see Romans 6

3 Know you not that all we who are baptized in Christ Jesus are baptized in his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.. 8 Now, if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ. 9 Knowing that Christ, rising again from the dead, dies now no more. Death shall no more have dominion over him. 10 For in that he died to sin, he died once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus..

We need to clarify what Paul is speaking about.  What Baptism is he referring to?  Note that Titus says we are baptized with the Spirit when we are saved---and Peter also states that we are "washed" by the Word of God when we believe.

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.(Titus 3:3-7)

In Romans 6 Paul is referring to what has happened to believers due to being washed clean by the Spirit, and raised to newness of life.  He is not referring to a "sacrament", but to a completely changed life in the Spirit.

you added the word "believers" to make the text fit your dogma. The baptism has the same value for everyone who does not reject Christ. Obviously infants do not reject Christ. Obviously, if someone is talking to adults, he will call them believers, that does not mean that baptism does not have salvation value for infants.

Since the 2nd century the unified Church had been baptising adults and infants. Do you mean to say that baptising infants is useless?? and that the early Fathers were clueless??

AvrilNYC---

Please reference a scripture that speaks of baptizing infants.  I would think that if the sacrament was that important and infants SHOULD be baptized there would be numerous scriptural references to that affect.  Please give the references---I would appreciate enlightenment on the subject.  Or is it possible it is a tradition of man, rather than the Word of God?  (Please see Mark 7 for a similar discussion by the Lord Jesus concerning the traditions of men vs. the Word of God).

[AvrilNYC]

see Romans 6

3 Know you not that all we who are baptized in Christ Jesus are baptized in his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.. 8 Now, if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ. 9 Knowing that Christ, rising again from the dead, dies now no more. Death shall no more have dominion over him. 10 For in that he died to sin, he died once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus..

We need to clarify what Paul is speaking about.  What Baptism is he referring to?  Note that Titus says we are baptized with the Spirit when we are saved---and Peter also states that we are "washed" by the Word of God when we believe.

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.(Titus 3:3-7)

In Romans 6 Paul is referring to what has happened to believers due to being washed clean by the Spirit, and raised to newness of life.  He is not referring to a "sacrament", but to a completely changed life in the Spirit.

you added the word "believers" to make the text fit your dogma. The baptism has the same value for everyone who does not reject Christ. Obviously infants do not reject Christ. Obviously, if someone is talking to adults, he will call them believers, that does not mean that baptism does not have salvation value for infants.

Since the 2nd century the unified Church had been baptising adults and infants. Do you mean to say that baptising infants is useless?? and that the early Fathers were clueless??

AvrilNYC---

Please reference a scripture that speaks of baptizing infants.  I would think that if the sacrament was that important and infants SHOULD be baptized there would be numerous scriptural references to that affect.  Please give the references---I would appreciate enlightenment on the subject.  Or is it possible it is a tradition of man, rather than the Word of God?  (Please see Mark 7 for a similar discussion by the Lord Jesus concerning the traditions of men vs. the Word of God).

First, le me please explain how I understand the word Sacrament

A sacrament is what Catholics believe to be "a rite in which God is uniquely active." Augustine of Hippo defined a Christian sacrament as "a visible sign of an invisible reality." Therefore a sacrament is a religious symbol or often a rite which conveys divine grace, blessing, or sanctity upon the person who participates in it, or a tangible symbol which represents an intangible reality. As defined above, an example would be baptism in water, representing (and conveying) the grace of the gift of the Holy Spirit, the Forgiveness of Sins, and membership into the Church.

Would you at a minimum agree that for adult believers, baptism is a sacrament? If yes, we can the focus on the issue of infant baptism

[fish153]

see Romans 6

3 Know you not that all we who are baptized in Christ Jesus are baptized in his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.. 8 Now, if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ. 9 Knowing that Christ, rising again from the dead, dies now no more. Death shall no more have dominion over him. 10 For in that he died to sin, he died once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus..

We need to clarify what Paul is speaking about.  What Baptism is he referring to?  Note that Titus says we are baptized with the Spirit when we are saved---and Peter also states that we are "washed" by the Word of God when we believe.

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.(Titus 3:3-7)

In Romans 6 Paul is referring to what has happened to believers due to being washed clean by the Spirit, and raised to newness of life.  He is not referring to a "sacrament", but to a completely changed life in the Spirit.

you added the word "believers" to make the text fit your dogma. The baptism has the same value for everyone who does not reject Christ. Obviously infants do not reject Christ. Obviously, if someone is talking to adults, he will call them believers, that does not mean that baptism does not have salvation value for infants.

Since the 2nd century the unified Church had been baptising adults and infants. Do you mean to say that baptising infants is useless?? and that the early Fathers were clueless??

AvrilNYC---

Please reference a scripture that speaks of baptizing infants.  I would think that if the sacrament was that important and infants SHOULD be baptized there would be numerous scriptural references to that affect.  Please give the references---I would appreciate enlightenment on the subject.  Or is it possible it is a tradition of man, rather than the Word of God?  (Please see Mark 7 for a similar discussion by the Lord Jesus concerning the traditions of men vs. the Word of God).

First, le me please explain how I understand the word Sacrament

A sacrament is what Catholics believe to be "a rite in which God is uniquely active." Augustine of Hippo defined a Christian sacrament as "a visible sign of an invisible reality." Therefore a sacrament is a religious symbol or often a rite which conveys divine grace, blessing, or sanctity upon the person who participates in it, or a tangible symbol which represents an intangible reality. As defined above, an example would be baptism in water, representing (and conveying) the grace of the gift of the Holy Spirit, the Forgiveness of Sins, and membership into the Church.

Would you at a minimum agree that for adult believers, baptism is a sacrament? If yes, we can the focus on the issue of infant baptism

I don't really believe in "sacraments" at all.  I believe that there are certain "symbols" that were given---baptism and communion--- one to show our commitment, the other to remember the Lord continually and his suffering, but I do not believe that either of those "sacraments" bestow any special grace.

Some churches also add "foot-washing" as a "sacrament", which again, I do not believe bestows any special grace, but is solely a reminder (if one is in a church which institutes this practice) that we are all servants of one another.

Baptism is very important----don't get me wrong. It is a step a Christian takes to publicly declare his commitment to God.  That is why I don't believe it has anything to do with infants.  There is no special power in the Baptism itself--it is solely a symbol outwardly of what has happened first inwardly-----putting off the old, and putting on the new.

One can "commit" their child to the Lord----some also add water sprinkling (no power in the water though) to this--to again declare their decision before the Lord and everyone that they intend to raise their Child for God-----but that child will one day make their own 'commitment' to God through complete immersion after they have truly believed.

[AvrilNYC]

see Romans 6

3 Know you not that all we who are baptized in Christ Jesus are baptized in his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.. 8 Now, if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ. 9 Knowing that Christ, rising again from the dead, dies now no more. Death shall no more have dominion over him. 10 For in that he died to sin, he died once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus..

We need to clarify what Paul is speaking about.  What Baptism is he referring to?  Note that Titus says we are baptized with the Spirit when we are saved---and Peter also states that we are "washed" by the Word of God when we believe.

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.(Titus 3:3-7)

In Romans 6 Paul is referring to what has happened to believers due to being washed clean by the Spirit, and raised to newness of life.  He is not referring to a "sacrament", but to a completely changed life in the Spirit.

you added the word "believers" to make the text fit your dogma. The baptism has the same value for everyone who does not reject Christ. Obviously infants do not reject Christ. Obviously, if someone is talking to adults, he will call them believers, that does not mean that baptism does not have salvation value for infants.

Since the 2nd century the unified Church had been baptising adults and infants. Do you mean to say that baptising infants is useless?? and that the early Fathers were clueless??

AvrilNYC---

Please reference a scripture that speaks of baptizing infants.  I would think that if the sacrament was that important and infants SHOULD be baptized there would be numerous scriptural references to that affect.  Please give the references---I would appreciate enlightenment on the subject.  Or is it possible it is a tradition of man, rather than the Word of God?  (Please see Mark 7 for a similar discussion by the Lord Jesus concerning the traditions of men vs. the Word of God).

First, le me please explain how I understand the word Sacrament

A sacrament is what Catholics believe to be "a rite in which God is uniquely active." Augustine of Hippo defined a Christian sacrament as "a visible sign of an invisible reality." Therefore a sacrament is a religious symbol or often a rite which conveys divine grace, blessing, or sanctity upon the person who participates in it, or a tangible symbol which represents an intangible reality. As defined above, an example would be baptism in water, representing (and conveying) the grace of the gift of the Holy Spirit, the Forgiveness of Sins, and membership into the Church.

Would you at a minimum agree that for adult believers, baptism is a sacrament? If yes, we can the focus on the issue of infant baptism

I don't really believe in "sacraments" at all.  I believe that there are certain "symbols" that were given---baptism and communion--- one to show our commitment, the other to remember the Lord continually and his suffering, but I do not believe that either of those "sacraments" bestow any special grace.

Some churches also add "foot-washing" as a "sacrament", which again, I do not believe bestows any special grace, but is solely a reminder (if one is in a church which institutes this practice) that we are all servants of one another.

Baptism is very important----don't get me wrong. It is a step a Christian takes to publicly declare his commitment to God.  That is why I don't believe it has anything to do with infants.  There is no special power in the Baptism itself--it is solely a symbol outwardly of what has happened first inwardly-----putting off the old, and putting on the new.

One can "commit" their child to the Lord----some also add water sprinkling (no power in the water though) to this--to again declare their decision before the Lord and everyone that they intend to raise their Child for God-----but that child will one day make their own 'commitment' to God through complete immersion after they have truly believed.

OK let's stick to adult baptism then. What is Paul talking about in Romans 6? He is describing baptism as something that "frees from sin" He is describing the Catholic definition  of a Sacrament. What was John the baptist talking about when he was describing that Jesus would "baptize with the Holy Spirit"??

Don't you believe that the Holy Spirit is present in adult baptisms?

[Saul 25]

I go by what happened to me. At a certain age I asked God what He wanted me to do and was amazed when I was immediately engulfed in intense love and heard a voice speaking to my mind saying,"you must accept My Son as your Savior".  God went on to tell me that I had to die, as it were, to my own life and commit totally to God and ask Jesus to be my Savior.  After doing this I was amazed to find the voice of God now speaking from my lower chest area and saying over and over,"you are My child and I love you". 
   When this happened to me I did not even know the OT from the NT and had no idea what or who the Holy Spirit was.  What had happened to me was the new birth, and THAT is how a person is saved.
  Later on I was water baptized, we are saved by faith in the sacrifice of Christ when we commit totally to God, water baptism is a symbol of conversion only.

[AvrilNYC]

I go by what happened to me. At a certain age I asked God what He wanted me to do and was amazed when I was immediately engulfed in intense love and heard a voice speaking to my mind saying,"you must accept My Son as your Savior".  God went on to tell me that I had to die, as it were, to my own life and commit totally to God and ask Jesus to be my Savior.  After doing this I was amazed to find the voice of God now speaking from my lower chest area and saying over and over,"you are My child and I love you". 
   When this happened to me I did not even know the OT from the NT and had no idea what or who the Holy Spirit was.  What had happened to me was the new birth, and THAT is how a person is saved.
  Later on I was water baptized, we are saved by faith in the sacrifice of Christ when we commit totally to God, water baptism is a symbol of conversion only.

So why was Christ baptized and the Holy Spirit at that moment of the baptism appeared - and right afterwards Christ was described as full of the Holy Spirit. Read you bible - Baptism is not a show for your buddies - The Holy Spirit was and is present

[davidmac]

water baptism is a symbol of conversion only

I would agree that baptism is a symbol of conversion--but couldn't it also be said that it is so closely linked with conversion that it becomes the physical expression of "calling upon the name of the Lord"(Romans 10) and demonstrates repentance (note the expression "baptism of repentance" and shows forth one's faith. This is why we see such biblical expressions as "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" and "baptism does also now save us". For many saints it was at their baptism that they confessed their trust in Christ alone for their salvation and the event itself becomes a source of assurance-they can point back at this event as the time that they "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ".This is contrary to ordinary evangelical thought -but may be closer to the theology of the primitive church- otherwise the unfortunate doctrine of baptismal regeneration would not have developed so very early in church history.

[Saul 25]

water baptism is a symbol of conversion only

I would agree that baptism is a symbol of conversion--but couldn't it also be said that it is so closely linked with conversion that it becomes the physical expression of "calling upon the name of the Lord"(Romans 10) and demonstrates repentance (note the expression "baptism of repentance" and shows forth one's faith. This is why we see such biblical expressions as "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" and "baptism does also now save us". For many saints it was at their baptism that they confessed their trust in Christ alone for their salvation and the event itself becomes a source of assurance-they can point back at this event as the time that they "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ".This is contrary to ordinary evangelical thought -but may be closer to the theology of the primitive church- otherwise the unfortunate doctrine of baptismal regeneration would not have developed so very early in church history.

I think you made an excellent point.  In the original church it appears that people committed to God and called on Jesus to be their Savior during the act of water baptism and so were actually baptized in the Spirit while being water baptized, all one event.
   I think what happened later on was that people actually began to have faith that the act of water baptism itself would save them and eventually those who recognized this sought to separate the conversion of the heart to Christ from water baptism so that the faith of the convert would actually be in Christ and not in water baptism.  So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion.  I do believe that you are right, that conversion of the heart and will to Christ would take place during water baptism and so water baptism was considered a conversion to Christ.

[AvrilNYC]

water baptism is a symbol of conversion only

I would agree that baptism is a symbol of conversion--but couldn't it also be said that it is so closely linked with conversion that it becomes the physical expression of "calling upon the name of the Lord"(Romans 10) and demonstrates repentance (note the expression "baptism of repentance" and shows forth one's faith. This is why we see such biblical expressions as "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" and "baptism does also now save us". For many saints it was at their baptism that they confessed their trust in Christ alone for their salvation and the event itself becomes a source of assurance-they can point back at this event as the time that they "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ".This is contrary to ordinary evangelical thought -but may be closer to the theology of the primitive church- otherwise the unfortunate doctrine of baptismal regeneration would not have developed so very early in church history.

I think you made an excellent point.  In the original church it appears that people committed to God and called on Jesus to be their Savior during the act of water baptism and so were actually baptized in the Spirit while being water baptized, all one event.
  I think what happened later on was that people actually began to have faith that the act of water baptism itself would save them and eventually those who recognized this sought to separate the conversion of the heart to Christ from water baptism so that the faith of the convert would actually be in Christ and not in water baptism.  So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion.  I do believe that you are right, that conversion of the heart and will to Christ would take place during water baptism and so water baptism was considered a conversion to Christ.

I'm happy to inform you that for the large majority of Christians "water baptism is still considered a conversion to Christ."   The beginning of the Salvation process

"So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion." Not true for the large majority Christians

I  think the idea that baptism is just a social event is an insult to Jesus who let John baptise him in the Holy Spirit, setting an example for the rest of us to follow

Matthew 28:19, Jesus said: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

[Saul 25]

water baptism is a symbol of conversion only

I would agree that baptism is a symbol of conversion--but couldn't it also be said that it is so closely linked with conversion that it becomes the physical expression of "calling upon the name of the Lord"(Romans 10) and demonstrates repentance (note the expression "baptism of repentance" and shows forth one's faith. This is why we see such biblical expressions as "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" and "baptism does also now save us". For many saints it was at their baptism that they confessed their trust in Christ alone for their salvation and the event itself becomes a source of assurance-they can point back at this event as the time that they "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ".This is contrary to ordinary evangelical thought -but may be closer to the theology of the primitive church- otherwise the unfortunate doctrine of baptismal regeneration would not have developed so very early in church history.

I think you made an excellent point.  In the original church it appears that people committed to God and called on Jesus to be their Savior during the act of water baptism and so were actually baptized in the Spirit while being water baptized, all one event.
  I think what happened later on was that people actually began to have faith that the act of water baptism itself would save them and eventually those who recognized this sought to separate the conversion of the heart to Christ from water baptism so that the faith of the convert would actually be in Christ and not in water baptism.  So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion.  I do believe that you are right, that conversion of the heart and will to Christ would take place during water baptism and so water baptism was considered a conversion to Christ.

I'm happy to inform you that for the large majority of Christians "water baptism is still considered a conversion to Christ."   The beginning of the Salvation process

"So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion." Not true for the large majority Christians

I  think the idea that baptism is just a social event is an insult to Jesus who let John baptise him in the Holy Spirit, setting an example for the rest of us to follow

Matthew 28:19, Jesus said: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

I know of no christians that are actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit that received the Spirit by being water baptized and I do not believe that it is possible, unless the person makes a total commitment to God and calls on Jesus to be his Savior and has no faith at all in the saving power of the water baptism.
  If you recognize that water baptism is only a symbol then you can be saved while being water baptized, on the other hand if you believe in the saving power of water baptism then you will not be saved because God will only accept exclusive faith in Christ and His sacrifice for salvation.

[AvrilNYC]

water baptism is a symbol of conversion only

I would agree that baptism is a symbol of conversion--but couldn't it also be said that it is so closely linked with conversion that it becomes the physical expression of "calling upon the name of the Lord"(Romans 10) and demonstrates repentance (note the expression "baptism of repentance" and shows forth one's faith. This is why we see such biblical expressions as "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" and "baptism does also now save us". For many saints it was at their baptism that they confessed their trust in Christ alone for their salvation and the event itself becomes a source of assurance-they can point back at this event as the time that they "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ".This is contrary to ordinary evangelical thought -but may be closer to the theology of the primitive church- otherwise the unfortunate doctrine of baptismal regeneration would not have developed so very early in church history.

I think you made an excellent point.  In the original church it appears that people committed to God and called on Jesus to be their Savior during the act of water baptism and so were actually baptized in the Spirit while being water baptized, all one event.
  I think what happened later on was that people actually began to have faith that the act of water baptism itself would save them and eventually those who recognized this sought to separate the conversion of the heart to Christ from water baptism so that the faith of the convert would actually be in Christ and not in water baptism.  So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion.  I do believe that you are right, that conversion of the heart and will to Christ would take place during water baptism and so water baptism was considered a conversion to Christ.

I'm happy to inform you that for the large majority of Christians "water baptism is still considered a conversion to Christ."   The beginning of the Salvation process

"So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion." Not true for the large majority Christians

I  think the idea that baptism is just a social event is an insult to Jesus who let John baptise him in the Holy Spirit, setting an example for the rest of us to follow

Matthew 28:19, Jesus said: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

I know of no christians that are actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit that received the Spirit by being water baptized and I do not believe that it is possible, unless the person makes a total commitment to God and calls on Jesus to be his Savior and has no faith at all in the saving power of the water baptism.
 If you recognize that water baptism is only a symbol then you can be saved while being water baptized, on the other hand if you believe in the saving power of water baptism then you will not be saved because God will only accept exclusive faith in Christ and His sacrifice for salvation.

First, you, as a mere mortal sinner (like all of us) have no ability to know whether someone is "actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit ".

Second, it's all over the Bible that water baptism, when done properly, includes grace from the Holy Spirit and a washing of sins. As Paul states in Romans 6 and in 1 Cor. 6: 7-11.

If Baptising was just a community symbol why did Jesus bother to tell His Apostles (Matthew 28:19) to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

Alsowas John the Baptist lying when he said (Matthew 3:11) "I indeed baptize you in water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire?

And what about Acts 19 when Paul explicitly states that baptism is needed to receive the Holy Spirit and believing is not enough: "And he said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. 3 And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John's baptism. 4 Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance saying: That they should believe in him, who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus. 5 Having heard these things, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Also in John 3:5 Jesus states that born again of water is necessary "Jesus ansered: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Also in Acts 2:38 Peter states "But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "

Also Acts 22:16 "And now why do you tarry? Rise up and be baptized and wash away your sins, invoking his name"

Also Paul in the fifth chapter of his Epistle to the Ephesians beautifully represents the whole Church as being baptized and purified (5:25): "Christ loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word of life: that he might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

If you want to answer with Scripture to support your assertions, great.

[fish153]

water baptism is a symbol of conversion only

I would agree that baptism is a symbol of conversion--but couldn't it also be said that it is so closely linked with conversion that it becomes the physical expression of "calling upon the name of the Lord"(Romans 10) and demonstrates repentance (note the expression "baptism of repentance" and shows forth one's faith. This is why we see such biblical expressions as "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" and "baptism does also now save us". For many saints it was at their baptism that they confessed their trust in Christ alone for their salvation and the event itself becomes a source of assurance-they can point back at this event as the time that they "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ".This is contrary to ordinary evangelical thought -but may be closer to the theology of the primitive church- otherwise the unfortunate doctrine of baptismal regeneration would not have developed so very early in church history.

I think you made an excellent point.  In the original church it appears that people committed to God and called on Jesus to be their Savior during the act of water baptism and so were actually baptized in the Spirit while being water baptized, all one event.
  I think what happened later on was that people actually began to have faith that the act of water baptism itself would save them and eventually those who recognized this sought to separate the conversion of the heart to Christ from water baptism so that the faith of the convert would actually be in Christ and not in water baptism.  So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion.  I do believe that you are right, that conversion of the heart and will to Christ would take place during water baptism and so water baptism was considered a conversion to Christ.

I'm happy to inform you that for the large majority of Christians "water baptism is still considered a conversion to Christ."   The beginning of the Salvation process

"So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion." Not true for the large majority Christians

I  think the idea that baptism is just a social event is an insult to Jesus who let John baptise him in the Holy Spirit, setting an example for the rest of us to follow

Matthew 28:19, Jesus said: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

I know of no christians that are actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit that received the Spirit by being water baptized and I do not believe that it is possible, unless the person makes a total commitment to God and calls on Jesus to be his Savior and has no faith at all in the saving power of the water baptism.
 If you recognize that water baptism is only a symbol then you can be saved while being water baptized, on the other hand if you believe in the saving power of water baptism then you will not be saved because God will only accept exclusive faith in Christ and His sacrifice for salvation.

First, you, as a mere mortal sinner (like all of us) have no ability to know whether someone is "actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit ".

Second, it's all over the Bible that water baptism, when done properly, includes grace from the Holy Spirit and a washing of sins. As Paul states in Romans 6 and in 1 Cor. 6: 7-11.

If Baptising was just a community symbol why did Jesus bother to tell His Apostles (Matthew 28:19) to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

Alsowas John the Baptist lying when he said (Matthew 3:11) "I indeed baptize you in water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire?

And what about Acts 19 when Paul explicitly states that baptism is needed to receive the Holy Spirit and believing is not enough: "And he said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. 3 And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John's baptism. 4 Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance saying: That they should believe in him, who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus. 5 Having heard these things, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Also in John 3:5 Jesus states that born again of water is necessary "Jesus ansered: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Also in Acts 2:38 Peter states "But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "

Also Acts 22:16 "And now why do you tarry? Rise up and be baptized and wash away your sins, invoking his name"

Also Paul in the fifth chapter of his Epistle to the Ephesians beautifully represents the whole Church as being baptized and purified (5:25): "Christ loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word of life: that he might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

If you want to answer with Scripture to support your assertions, great.

Avril---

You said:

>>>>If Baptising was just a community symbol why did Jesus bother to tell His Apostles (Matthew 28:19) to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event<<<<

Please note that when he mentions baptism he mentions "make disciples"---this infers a commitment to follow Christ.  One is not saved as a "disciple"-----one BECOMES a disciple by making a conscious decision to follow Christ.  Baptism is a confirmation of this decision in front of others.  One is not SAVED however by being baptized----one is saved by receiving Jesus Christ by faith.
After one receives Christ he then confirms what happened on the inside with an outward Baptism----showing forth that one has committed their life to Christ.

Man has a tendency to REVERSE God's covenant.

God says you are saved by Grace through faith UNTO Good works. Man reverses it and says you are saved by your works helped by God's Grace.

God says you are saved, and then baptized to confirm it.
Man says you are baptized, and then you are saved.

[AvrilNYC]

water baptism is a symbol of conversion only

I would agree that baptism is a symbol of conversion--but couldn't it also be said that it is so closely linked with conversion that it becomes the physical expression of "calling upon the name of the Lord"(Romans 10) and demonstrates repentance (note the expression "baptism of repentance" and shows forth one's faith. This is why we see such biblical expressions as "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" and "baptism does also now save us". For many saints it was at their baptism that they confessed their trust in Christ alone for their salvation and the event itself becomes a source of assurance-they can point back at this event as the time that they "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ".This is contrary to ordinary evangelical thought -but may be closer to the theology of the primitive church- otherwise the unfortunate doctrine of baptismal regeneration would not have developed so very early in church history.

I think you made an excellent point.  In the original church it appears that people committed to God and called on Jesus to be their Savior during the act of water baptism and so were actually baptized in the Spirit while being water baptized, all one event.
  I think what happened later on was that people actually began to have faith that the act of water baptism itself would save them and eventually those who recognized this sought to separate the conversion of the heart to Christ from water baptism so that the faith of the convert would actually be in Christ and not in water baptism.  So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion.  I do believe that you are right, that conversion of the heart and will to Christ would take place during water baptism and so water baptism was considered a conversion to Christ.

I'm happy to inform you that for the large majority of Christians "water baptism is still considered a conversion to Christ."   The beginning of the Salvation process

"So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion." Not true for the large majority Christians

I  think the idea that baptism is just a social event is an insult to Jesus who let John baptise him in the Holy Spirit, setting an example for the rest of us to follow

Matthew 28:19, Jesus said: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

I know of no christians that are actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit that received the Spirit by being water baptized and I do not believe that it is possible, unless the person makes a total commitment to God and calls on Jesus to be his Savior and has no faith at all in the saving power of the water baptism.
 If you recognize that water baptism is only a symbol then you can be saved while being water baptized, on the other hand if you believe in the saving power of water baptism then you will not be saved because God will only accept exclusive faith in Christ and His sacrifice for salvation.

First, you, as a mere mortal sinner (like all of us) have no ability to know whether someone is "actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit ".

Second, it's all over the Bible that water baptism, when done properly, includes grace from the Holy Spirit and a washing of sins. As Paul states in Romans 6 and in 1 Cor. 6: 7-11.

If Baptising was just a community symbol why did Jesus bother to tell His Apostles (Matthew 28:19) to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

Alsowas John the Baptist lying when he said (Matthew 3:11) "I indeed baptize you in water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire?

And what about Acts 19 when Paul explicitly states that baptism is needed to receive the Holy Spirit and believing is not enough: "And he said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. 3 And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John's baptism. 4 Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance saying: That they should believe in him, who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus. 5 Having heard these things, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Also in John 3:5 Jesus states that born again of water is necessary "Jesus ansered: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Also in Acts 2:38 Peter states "But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "

Also Acts 22:16 "And now why do you tarry? Rise up and be baptized and wash away your sins, invoking his name"

Also Paul in the fifth chapter of his Epistle to the Ephesians beautifully represents the whole Church as being baptized and purified (5:25): "Christ loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word of life: that he might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

If you want to answer with Scripture to support your assertions, great.

Avril---

You said:

>>>>If Baptising was just a community symbol why did Jesus bother to tell His Apostles (Matthew 28:19) to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event<<<<

Please note that when he mentions baptism he mentions "make disciples"---this infers a commitment to follow Christ.  One is not saved as a "disciple"-----one BECOMES a disciple by making a conscious decision to follow Christ.  Baptism is a confirmation of this decision in front of others.  One is not SAVED however by being baptized----one is saved by receiving Jesus Christ by faith.

fish,

We do not believe that baptism guarantees Salvation. Salvation can, and will be, lost if baptism is not followed by faith working itself through love (works of love). Having said that, it all starts with baptism. Baptism is the beginning of our journey, not an afterthought.

In Catholicism, infant baptism is followed by confirmation, at an age (12) when a person is able to make a conscious commitment. Leading up to confirmation, is a catechesis that provides the building blocks of faith and teaches the Gospel. For us it's a process, not an one-off emotional event.

[fish153]

water baptism is a symbol of conversion only

I would agree that baptism is a symbol of conversion--but couldn't it also be said that it is so closely linked with conversion that it becomes the physical expression of "calling upon the name of the Lord"(Romans 10) and demonstrates repentance (note the expression "baptism of repentance" and shows forth one's faith. This is why we see such biblical expressions as "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" and "baptism does also now save us". For many saints it was at their baptism that they confessed their trust in Christ alone for their salvation and the event itself becomes a source of assurance-they can point back at this event as the time that they "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ".This is contrary to ordinary evangelical thought -but may be closer to the theology of the primitive church- otherwise the unfortunate doctrine of baptismal regeneration would not have developed so very early in church history.

I think you made an excellent point.  In the original church it appears that people committed to God and called on Jesus to be their Savior during the act of water baptism and so were actually baptized in the Spirit while being water baptized, all one event.
  I think what happened later on was that people actually began to have faith that the act of water baptism itself would save them and eventually those who recognized this sought to separate the conversion of the heart to Christ from water baptism so that the faith of the convert would actually be in Christ and not in water baptism.  So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion.  I do believe that you are right, that conversion of the heart and will to Christ would take place during water baptism and so water baptism was considered a conversion to Christ.

I'm happy to inform you that for the large majority of Christians "water baptism is still considered a conversion to Christ."   The beginning of the Salvation process

"So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion." Not true for the large majority Christians

I  think the idea that baptism is just a social event is an insult to Jesus who let John baptise him in the Holy Spirit, setting an example for the rest of us to follow

Matthew 28:19, Jesus said: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

I know of no christians that are actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit that received the Spirit by being water baptized and I do not believe that it is possible, unless the person makes a total commitment to God and calls on Jesus to be his Savior and has no faith at all in the saving power of the water baptism.
 If you recognize that water baptism is only a symbol then you can be saved while being water baptized, on the other hand if you believe in the saving power of water baptism then you will not be saved because God will only accept exclusive faith in Christ and His sacrifice for salvation.

First, you, as a mere mortal sinner (like all of us) have no ability to know whether someone is "actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit ".

Second, it's all over the Bible that water baptism, when done properly, includes grace from the Holy Spirit and a washing of sins. As Paul states in Romans 6 and in 1 Cor. 6: 7-11.

If Baptising was just a community symbol why did Jesus bother to tell His Apostles (Matthew 28:19) to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

Alsowas John the Baptist lying when he said (Matthew 3:11) "I indeed baptize you in water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire?

And what about Acts 19 when Paul explicitly states that baptism is needed to receive the Holy Spirit and believing is not enough: "And he said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. 3 And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John's baptism. 4 Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance saying: That they should believe in him, who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus. 5 Having heard these things, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Also in John 3:5 Jesus states that born again of water is necessary "Jesus ansered: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Also in Acts 2:38 Peter states "But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "

Also Acts 22:16 "And now why do you tarry? Rise up and be baptized and wash away your sins, invoking his name"

Also Paul in the fifth chapter of his Epistle to the Ephesians beautifully represents the whole Church as being baptized and purified (5:25): "Christ loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word of life: that he might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

If you want to answer with Scripture to support your assertions, great.

Avril---

You said:

>>>>If Baptising was just a community symbol why did Jesus bother to tell His Apostles (Matthew 28:19) to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event<<<<

Please note that when he mentions baptism he mentions "make disciples"---this infers a commitment to follow Christ.  One is not saved as a "disciple"-----one BECOMES a disciple by making a conscious decision to follow Christ.  Baptism is a confirmation of this decision in front of others.  One is not SAVED however by being baptized----one is saved by receiving Jesus Christ by faith.

fish,

We do not believe that baptism guarantees Salvation. Salvation can, and will be, lost if baptism is not followed by faith working itself through love (works of love). Having said that, it all starts with baptism. Baptism is the beginning of our journey, not an afterthought.

In Catholicism, infant baptism is followed by confirmation, at an age (12) when a person is able to make a conscious commitment. Leading up to confirmation, is a catechesis that provides the building blocks of faith and teaches the Gospel. For us it's a process, not an one-off emotional event.

I do not believe baptism has anything to do with salvation, but even if I did, it doesn't START with baptism.  Jesus said "Whoever BELIEVES and is baptized will be saved.."  Belief comes first, then baptism.

[Jimmy]

water baptism is a symbol of conversion only

I would agree that baptism is a symbol of conversion--but couldn't it also be said that it is so closely linked with conversion that it becomes the physical expression of "calling upon the name of the Lord"(Romans 10) and demonstrates repentance (note the expression "baptism of repentance" and shows forth one's faith. This is why we see such biblical expressions as "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" and "baptism does also now save us". For many saints it was at their baptism that they confessed their trust in Christ alone for their salvation and the event itself becomes a source of assurance-they can point back at this event as the time that they "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ".This is contrary to ordinary evangelical thought -but may be closer to the theology of the primitive church- otherwise the unfortunate doctrine of baptismal regeneration would not have developed so very early in church history.

I think you made an excellent point.  In the original church it appears that people committed to God and called on Jesus to be their Savior during the act of water baptism and so were actually baptized in the Spirit while being water baptized, all one event.
  I think what happened later on was that people actually began to have faith that the act of water baptism itself would save them and eventually those who recognized this sought to separate the conversion of the heart to Christ from water baptism so that the faith of the convert would actually be in Christ and not in water baptism.  So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion.  I do believe that you are right, that conversion of the heart and will to Christ would take place during water baptism and so water baptism was considered a conversion to Christ.

I'm happy to inform you that for the large majority of Christians "water baptism is still considered a conversion to Christ."   The beginning of the Salvation process

"So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion." Not true for the large majority Christians

I  think the idea that baptism is just a social event is an insult to Jesus who let John baptise him in the Holy Spirit, setting an example for the rest of us to follow

Matthew 28:19, Jesus said: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

I know of no christians that are actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit that received the Spirit by being water baptized and I do not believe that it is possible, unless the person makes a total commitment to God and calls on Jesus to be his Savior and has no faith at all in the saving power of the water baptism.
 If you recognize that water baptism is only a symbol then you can be saved while being water baptized, on the other hand if you believe in the saving power of water baptism then you will not be saved because God will only accept exclusive faith in Christ and His sacrifice for salvation.

First, you, as a mere mortal sinner (like all of us) have no ability to know whether someone is "actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit ".

Second, it's all over the Bible that water baptism, when done properly, includes grace from the Holy Spirit and a washing of sins. As Paul states in Romans 6 and in 1 Cor. 6: 7-11.

If Baptising was just a community symbol why did Jesus bother to tell His Apostles (Matthew 28:19) to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

Alsowas John the Baptist lying when he said (Matthew 3:11) "I indeed baptize you in water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire?

And what about Acts 19 when Paul explicitly states that baptism is needed to receive the Holy Spirit and believing is not enough: "And he said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. 3 And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John's baptism. 4 Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance saying: That they should believe in him, who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus. 5 Having heard these things, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Also in John 3:5 Jesus states that born again of water is necessary "Jesus ansered: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Also in Acts 2:38 Peter states "But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "

Also Acts 22:16 "And now why do you tarry? Rise up and be baptized and wash away your sins, invoking his name"

Also Paul in the fifth chapter of his Epistle to the Ephesians beautifully represents the whole Church as being baptized and purified (5:25): "Christ loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word of life: that he might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

If you want to answer with Scripture to support your assertions, great.

Avril---

You said:

>>>>If Baptising was just a community symbol why did Jesus bother to tell His Apostles (Matthew 28:19) to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event<<<<

Please note that when he mentions baptism he mentions "make disciples"---this infers a commitment to follow Christ.  One is not saved as a "disciple"-----one BECOMES a disciple by making a conscious decision to follow Christ.  Baptism is a confirmation of this decision in front of others.  One is not SAVED however by being baptized----one is saved by receiving Jesus Christ by faith.
After one receives Christ he then confirms what happened on the inside with an outward Baptism----showing forth that one has committed their life to Christ.

Man has a tendency to REVERSE God's covenant.

God says you are saved by Grace through faith UNTO Good works. Man reverses it and says you are saved by your works helped by God's Grace.

God says you are saved, and then baptized to confirm it.

Man says you are baptized, and then you are saved.

fish,

If you will study Matthew 28 as it is translated in English and as it appears in the Greek, you will find that there are two verbs indicating commands.  Those are "go" and "make" [disciples].  The words baptizing and teaching are not commands; they participial modifiers in both the English and the Greek. As such they both describe how they, i.e., the nations are to be made discples.

It is similar in construction to the statement that I might make to the contractor concerning my roof repair.  I might say to him, "Fix my roof, replacing any rotted wood and putting down new shingles."  Here the words "replacing" and "putting" are participial modifiers, defining just how the roof is to be fixed.  It certainly doesn't mean that the roof is to be fixed and then any rotted wood is to be replaced and new shingles installed.

In precisely the say way, the grammatical construction of Matthew 28:19-20 demands that baptizing and teaching are participial modifiers defining just how the disciples are to be made.

Your interpretation of

God says you are saved, and then baptized to confirm it.

is just plain wrong.  It is not consistant with the grammatical construction.

[Jimmy]

water baptism is a symbol of conversion only

I would agree that baptism is a symbol of conversion--but couldn't it also be said that it is so closely linked with conversion that it becomes the physical expression of "calling upon the name of the Lord"(Romans 10) and demonstrates repentance (note the expression "baptism of repentance" and shows forth one's faith. This is why we see such biblical expressions as "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" and "baptism does also now save us". For many saints it was at their baptism that they confessed their trust in Christ alone for their salvation and the event itself becomes a source of assurance-they can point back at this event as the time that they "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ".This is contrary to ordinary evangelical thought -but may be closer to the theology of the primitive church- otherwise the unfortunate doctrine of baptismal regeneration would not have developed so very early in church history.

I think you made an excellent point.  In the original church it appears that people committed to God and called on Jesus to be their Savior during the act of water baptism and so were actually baptized in the Spirit while being water baptized, all one event.
  I think what happened later on was that people actually began to have faith that the act of water baptism itself would save them and eventually those who recognized this sought to separate the conversion of the heart to Christ from water baptism so that the faith of the convert would actually be in Christ and not in water baptism.  So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion.  I do believe that you are right, that conversion of the heart and will to Christ would take place during water baptism and so water baptism was considered a conversion to Christ.

I'm happy to inform you that for the large majority of Christians "water baptism is still considered a conversion to Christ."   The beginning of the Salvation process

"So today we usually hear of the conversion of the heart and will to Christ and later on water baptism as a symbol of that conversion." Not true for the large majority Christians

I  think the idea that baptism is just a social event is an insult to Jesus who let John baptise him in the Holy Spirit, setting an example for the rest of us to follow

Matthew 28:19, Jesus said: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

I know of no christians that are actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit that received the Spirit by being water baptized and I do not believe that it is possible, unless the person makes a total commitment to God and calls on Jesus to be his Savior and has no faith at all in the saving power of the water baptism.
 If you recognize that water baptism is only a symbol then you can be saved while being water baptized, on the other hand if you believe in the saving power of water baptism then you will not be saved because God will only accept exclusive faith in Christ and His sacrifice for salvation.

First, you, as a mere mortal sinner (like all of us) have no ability to know whether someone is "actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit ".

Second, it's all over the Bible that water baptism, when done properly, includes grace from the Holy Spirit and a washing of sins. As Paul states in Romans 6 and in 1 Cor. 6: 7-11.

If Baptising was just a community symbol why did Jesus bother to tell His Apostles (Matthew 28:19) to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event

Alsowas John the Baptist lying when he said (Matthew 3:11) "I indeed baptize you in water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire?

And what about Acts 19 when Paul explicitly states that baptism is needed to receive the Holy Spirit and believing is not enough: "And he said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. 3 And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John's baptism. 4 Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance saying: That they should believe in him, who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus. 5 Having heard these things, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Also in John 3:5 Jesus states that born again of water is necessary "Jesus ansered: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Also in Acts 2:38 Peter states "But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "

Also Acts 22:16 "And now why do you tarry? Rise up and be baptized and wash away your sins, invoking his name"

Also Paul in the fifth chapter of his Epistle to the Ephesians beautifully represents the whole Church as being baptized and purified (5:25): "Christ loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word of life: that he might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

If you want to answer with Scripture to support your assertions, great.

Avril---

You said:

>>>>If Baptising was just a community symbol why did Jesus bother to tell His Apostles (Matthew 28:19) to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," This was His last commandment. It's a big deal, it's how the Apostles made disciples, it's the entry into the body of Christ, not a community event<<<<

Please note that when he mentions baptism he mentions "make disciples"---this infers a commitment to follow Christ.  One is not saved as a "disciple"-----one BECOMES a disciple by making a conscious decision to follow Christ.  Baptism is a confirmation of this decision in front of others.  One is not SAVED however by being baptized----one is saved by receiving Jesus Christ by faith.

fish,

We do not believe that baptism guarantees Salvation. Salvation can, and will be, lost if baptism is not followed by faith working itself through love (works of love). Having said that, it all starts with baptism. Baptism is the beginning of our journey, not an afterthought.

In Catholicism, infant baptism is followed by confirmation, at an age (12) when a person is able to make a conscious commitment. Leading up to confirmation, is a catechesis that provides the building blocks of faith and teaches the Gospel. For us it's a process, not an one-off emotional event.

I do not believe baptism has anything to do with salvation, but even if I did, it doesn't START with baptism.  Jesus said "Whoever BELIEVES and is baptized will be saved.."  Belief comes first, then baptism.

The conjunction "and" carries no such order of completion.  It is simply a statement that both are required. Now it is obvious (to most) that to be baptized and not believe doesn't accomplish much.

[fish153]

The other post is getting way too long or I'd "quote" it to respond Jimmy.  

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God". (John 1:12,13)

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". (John 3:16)

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life"(John 5:24)

Jimmy----

Here are just (3) examples of verses that could have, but say nothing about baptism as part of salvation.  They speak of BELIEF.  When Jesus DOES mention baptism he ties discipleship with it.

There are verses too numerous to list here that mention solely faith and receiving Christ when referring to salvation (Eph 2:8,9,  Titus 3:3-7 for example).

Paul himself when mentioning Baptism says he baptized two people plus one family, but can't remember if he baptized anyone else.  If baptism is SO IMPORTANT to salvation wouldn't Paul remember clearly who he baptized since he baptized so few?  The fact he can't remember speaks to the fact that baptism is a symbol of commitment, and is not an integral part of being saved.

If Baptism was that important to salvation, don't you think Jesus would have spoken often of it, and have altered verses to say "He who hears my word and believes and is baptized has eternal life"??  

Baptism is important, but it is not necessary for salvation----it is a "showing forth" publicly of what has ALREADY HAPPENED inwardly to a believer.

[stevehut]

1- you will find that there are two verbs indicating commands.  Those are "go" and "make" [disciples]. 

2- In precisely the say way, the grammatical construction of Matthew 28:19-20 demands that baptizing and teaching are participial modifiers defining just how the disciples are to be made.

3- It is not consistant with the grammatical construction.

1- Actually, the verb there is "teach." but in an intimate manner that that student becomes a disciple of someone.

2- So we're commanded to make disciples, but the requisite steps are not commanded?     Ya, that makes perfect sense to me.

3- Perhaps, but even more to the point your spllelling ar'nt consistent with gramtcl cnstrctn.

[davidmac]

Baptism is important, but it is not necessary for salvation----it is a "showing forth" publicly of what has ALREADY HAPPENED inwardly to a believer.

Not necessarily in all cases-
For some believers "the inward change is what is happening at baptism"-if at that same time they are being baptized  they are also repenting and trusting Christ alone for salvation-it is true that our salvation and new birth occurs when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ-

Ephesians 1:12-13 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

John5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Immediate baptism is the NT practice-and believers associated it with their conversion,which is why we have expressions like "baptism does also now save us".
Not everyone has an experience like John Wesley's (conversion and baptism not linked).

[Jimmy]

3- Perhaps, but even more to the point your spllelling ar'nt consistent with gramtcl cnstrctn.

Excellent point. Totally refutes the entire argument. Right!! Typical Steve.

[stevehut]

Not everyone has an experience like John Wesley's (conversion and baptism not linked).

I suppose you're referring to Aldersgate.  Sort of his Damascus Road experience.

David, are you familiar with Wesley's teaching on Baptism?     You might be surprised. 

[stevehut]

Excellant point.  Totally refutes the entire argument.  Right!!  Typical Steve.

As a writer, I take that as a compliment.  

[Jimmy]

Excellant point.  Totally refutes the entire argument.  Right!!  Typical Steve.

As a writer, I take that as a compliment.  

I thought you might. 

[davidmac]

David, are you familiar with Wesley's teaching on Baptism?

Yes-it sounds rather High Church Anglican doesn't it?

"By baptism, we enter into a covenant with God, an everlasting covenant, are admitted into the church, made members of Christ, made children of God. By water as the means, the water of baptism, we are regenerated or born again."-John Wesley (A Preservative Against Unsettled Notions in Religion, p. 146-150)

[Jimmy]

The other post is getting way too long or I'd "quote" it to respond Jimmy.  

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God". (John 1:12,13)

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". (John 3:16)

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life"(John 5:24)

Jimmy----

Here are just (3) examples of verses that could have, but say nothing about baptism as part of salvation.  They speak of BELIEF.  When Jesus DOES mention baptism he ties discipleship with it.

There are verses too numerous to list here that mention solely faith and receiving Christ when referring to salvation (Eph 2:8,9,  Titus 3:3-7 for example).

Paul himself when mentioning Baptism says he baptized two people plus one family, but can't remember if he baptized anyone else.  If baptism is SO IMPORTANT to salvation wouldn't Paul remember clearly who he baptized since he baptized so few?  The fact he can't remember speaks to the fact that baptism is a symbol of commitment, and is not an integral part of being saved.

If Baptism was that important to salvation, don't you think Jesus would have spoken often of it, and have altered verses to say "He who hears my word and believes and is baptized has eternal life"??  

Baptism is important, but it is not necessary for salvation----it is a "showing forth" publicly of what has ALREADY HAPPENED inwardly to a believer.

None of that has anything to do with what Matthew 28:19-20 says.

But just for giggles, could you show me where you read anything in t the Bible about baptism being

a "showing forth" publicly of what has ALREADY HAPPENED inwardly to a believer.

?

[Jimmy]

Excellant point.  Totally refutes the entire argument.  Right!!  Typical Steve.

As a writer, I take that as a compliment.  

And as I writer I would think that you would understand the grammatical construction Jesus' statement.  And the verb "teach" in v.20 is not in the imperative.  There are only two in the entire sentence; they are "go" and "make".

[stevehut]

Very good, Davidmac.   

Wesley also affirmed the Book of Common Prayer, the Nicene Creed, and his own "Treatise on Baptism."

[stevehut]

Good to hear that you're a grammar expert, Jimmy.    I still can't see how that turns Jesus' commands into friendly suggestions that we can ignore with impunity.