Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity

[chestertonrules]

If you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, then you have been given His authority. You would know what sin is by virtue of that, and you could judge it for what it is.

So you believe that churches that teach that abortion is OK are not legitimate churches?

No, they are not of God. They may be merely social clubs.

Who told you this?

Not that I disagree, but by what authority do you make this claim?

It is obvious that if God is not honoured in a  place that is called a church, then it isn't really a church but a man-honouring social club.

You are avoiding the question.

No, I answered it.

You didn't answer the question.

What authority told you that churches that condone abortion are false churches?

You have not answered this question.  You may answer that it is just your opinion, which is fine, but you must be willing to admit that you have not been given any authority to judge churches.

The discernment gift the Lord gave me, and many countless other believers. We have the authority and the responsibility to judge for righteousness sake. Spirit-filled Christians submit to Him in training fro eternity, where we will rule with Christ and He says we will judge angels. If you don't submit to His training now, don't expect to receive from Christ a role of much responsibility in the coming Kingdom.

Do you and these other countless believers always agree?

You sound like Luther!

"My word is the word of Christ; my mouth is the mouth of Christ"

[Lively Stone]

Yes, we agree.

[chestertonrules]

Yes, we agree.

So, as I understand it, only those who agree with you are listening to the Holy Spirit.

Is that your position?

[Josiah]

So, as I understand it, only those who agree with you are listening to the Holy Spirit.

Is that your position?

Actually, the only one that says that is the RCC (well, and the cults and the early LDS).  But actually, the Holy Spirit ONLY speaks inerrantly to self, insists the RCC for itself alone, and the ONLY one that infallibly follows is self alone, insists itself alone.  I somewhat agree with your rebuke of that claim, but I think you should direct it to the ONLY denomination on the planet that claims it - yours.


Now, how does that provide the mandate: "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean some interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER?" 








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[Lively Stone]

Yes, we agree.

So, as I understand it, only those who agree with you are listening to the Holy Spirit.

Is that your position?

All who hear and follow the voice of Holy Spirit will agree. That is what God says. It's called 'UNITY'. We have it in Christ. We are commanded to MAINTAIN it. As you (understood) have gone off to farflung places in your religion of choice, you do a good job to ensure disunity in the Body of Christ.

It's God's position.

[chestertonrules]

Yes, we agree.

So, as I understand it, only those who agree with you are listening to the Holy Spirit.

Is that your position?

All who hear and follow the voice of Holy Spirit will agree.

You keep repeating this provable falsehood.

We know that those who believe like you can't agree with each other.

You think you are listening to the Holy Spirit when in reality you are led by personal pride.

That's the problem with protestantism.

Your method leads to falsehoods and leads people away from the Truth.

[Lively Stone]

Yes, we agree.

So, as I understand it, only those who agree with you are listening to the Holy Spirit.

Is that your position?

All who hear and follow the voice of Holy Spirit will agree.

You keep repeating this provable falsehood.

We know that those who believe like you can't agree with each other.

You think you are listening to the Holy Spirit when in reality you are led by personal pride.

That's the problem with protestantism.

Your method leads to falsehoods and leads people away from the Truth.

Such darkness!

I do not argue for protestantism. It means nothing to me. I declare the truth of Christ and the relationship we can have with Him personally.We who know Jesus listen to Holy Spirit. We agree with each other because He lives in each of us and He speaks the same things to us.

The fact that you deny personal salvation in favour of a generic one is one of the reasons for your lack. It's a huge spiritual problem.

Jesus is our Shepherd. Ever hear of that?

[LightHammer]

"Simon, son of John, do you love Me?....Then feed my flock"

"Come with Me and I will make you fishers of men"

Ever hear of that? It is the words the Holy Shepard spoke to empower the physical shepards who would physically lead in His physical absence.

Follow them because if you reject them you reject He who sent them.

[Josiah]

You are avoiding the question.

For over 150 pages of posts, the Catholic have been.  AT BEST, they've been trying to justify why the RCC alone is exempt from the question but they have not answered it. The question is:  Where is the mandate:  PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just your interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean  PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER?"

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Jesus started a Church with authority and gave the apostles the power to bind and loose.

More baseless evasion, just another attempt to say "The RCC is exempt from the issue" instead of addressing the issue.  Just an attempt by the RCC to make a radical, absolute, total "180" on the issue of accountability in the sole, exclusive, particular, unique, individual case of it itself.  More attempt to push aside the issue of truth and replace it with the issue of the POWER the RCC alone claims for the RCC alone.


I hope you'll stop the "shall game" and diversions and evasions and flaming.   And address the issue.   The question is:  Where is the mandate:  PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just your interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean  PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER?"  If truth matters at all to you, if Mary matters at all to you - the question should matter.  If a non-Catholic must provide this mandate for a non-binding, non-dogmatic, personal opinion, how much more is it needed for a de fide dogma of a whole denomination?  


We're waiting....  


(Can't blame us for impatience, LOL.  But then, Truth and Mary demand our persistence).  







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[Josiah]

"My word is the word of Christ; my mouth is the mouth of Christ"

- The Catholic Church, "The Catechism of The Catholic Church"  # 87.


Now, back to the subject at hand:  Where is the mandate:  PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just your interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean  PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER?"








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[Amo]

"Simon, son of John, do you love Me?....Then feed my flock"

"Come with Me and I will make you fishers of men"

Ever hear of that? It is the words the Holy Shepard spoke to empower the physical shepards who would physically lead in His physical absence.

Follow them because if you reject them you reject He who sent them.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 16:7-15 (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.  John 14:15-21 (KJV)

[Lively Stone]

"Simon, son of John, do you love Me?....Then feed my flock"

"Come with Me and I will make you fishers of men"

Ever hear of that? It is the words the Holy Shepard spoke to empower the physical shepards who would physically lead in His physical absence.

Follow them because if you reject them you reject He who sent them.

Why does it go over your head that Jesus is calling you to the same things?

I follow Jesus. Why don't you? Do the first disciples save you? No. They set your example. If you are following anyone but Jesus, you reject Him.

[LightHammer]

You sound dumb. If the Church is Christ's Flock how can of His sheep be Shepards as well?


You quite literally have to rape away destroy the meaning of Flock and Shepard and recreate them to fit your twisted ideology.

[Lively Stone]

You sound dumb. If the Church is Christ's Flock how can of His sheep be Shepards as well?


You quite literally have to rape away destroy the meaning of Flock and Shepard and recreate them to fit your twisted ideology.

I am FAR from dumb, thanks. You have nothing to stand on so you stoop to personal attacks---just like a cornered viper. We all know who Jesus called vipers, don't we? Religious folk who absolutely dug in and refused to acknowledge the truth even when it slapped them right in the face. Pharisees. Like the RCC.

We are all sheep of the Good Shepherd. We are also The light and salt of the world---that means leaders in truth and righteousness! God appoints shepherds among us, and guess what? We shepherd those we lead to Christ and disciple in the things of God, which include our very own children.

Your talk of 'rape' is vicious and unfounded. It just reveals where your mind dwells. The only twisting we see is what you say you believe.

[LightHammer]

How can we all be leaders? Who is meant to follow if we are all leaders?

[Josiah]

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LightHammer -

Let's say that Jesus is the Good Shepherd.  Let's say that 50% of people are dumb.  What I don't understand is how does that provide you mandate for views?  Namely, "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't mean just your interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainly of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER?"







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[chestertonrules]

"Simon, son of John, do you love Me?....Then feed my flock"

"Come with Me and I will make you fishers of men"

Ever hear of that? It is the words the Holy Shepard spoke to empower the physical shepards who would physically lead in His physical absence.

Follow them because if you reject them you reject He who sent them.

Why does it go over your head that Jesus is calling you to the same things?

I follow Jesus. Why don't you? Do the first disciples save you? No. They set your example. If you are following anyone but Jesus, you reject Him.

Jesus gave us leaders.  You are not a leader.  You have been instructed to follow those sent by Jesus.

[Lively Stone]

How can we all be leaders? Who is meant to follow if we are all leaders?

Leaders lead sinners to Jesus Christ. They also lead spiritually immature into maturity in Christ. This is the way of Christ.

You need someone to tell you this???

[Lively Stone]

"Simon, son of John, do you love Me?....Then feed my flock"

"Come with Me and I will make you fishers of men"

Ever hear of that? It is the words the Holy Shepard spoke to empower the physical shepards who would physically lead in His physical absence.

Follow them because if you reject them you reject He who sent them.

Why does it go over your head that Jesus is calling you to the same things?

I follow Jesus. Why don't you? Do the first disciples save you? No. They set your example. If you are following anyone but Jesus, you reject Him.

Jesus gave us leaders.  You are not a leader.  You have been instructed to follow those sent by Jesus.

I have Godly leaders. I myself am a leader, teaching others of Christ and the word, as we are all supposed to be doing, and as God gives us opportunity.  Leaders train up new leaders after themselves. Just like the disciples, we are commanded by Christ to replicate ourselves.

I am certainly instructed to heed my Godly leaders and give them honour, but I follow Jesus first and my leaders would only enforce that, or they are not worthy leaders.

[LightHammer]

That doesn't fit. Christ said "Feed MY flock".

Sinners in need of salvation aren't Christ's Flock.

Try again.

[Lively Stone]

That doesn't fit. Christ said "Feed MY flock".

Sinners in need of salvation aren't Christ's Flock.

Try again.

Church leadership is feeding the flock. EVERYONE who knows Jesus is called to disciple others---the unsaved to know Christ, and the saved to growth in Christ. Who are you leading in the way of Christ? Anyone?

[LightHammer]

Who is Church leadership?

[Lively Stone]

Who is Church leadership?

There are particular giftings for church leadership. But we as believers are all considered leaders in the WORLD. We who know God have all truth at our disposal.

[Josiah]

Christ said "Feed MY flock".

Try again.

I agree.  (Of course, He said NOTHING about, to or concerning the RCC.  No authorizations, no promises, no exemptions, no nothing.  He never mentioned it AT ALL for anything, about anything, concerning anything.  The remarkable, accountability-evading claims of the RCC alone for the RCC alone are just that - claims of self for self to evade accountability of self).

What I don't understand is how does that provide YOUR mandate, namely, "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just your interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER?"


Try again.









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[LightHammer]

So what haooens when your inner sanctum contradicts the teachings of God's ordained leadership.

[Lively Stone]

So what haooens when your inner sanctum contradicts the teachings of God's ordained leadership.

What are you talking about?

My spirit is born again and doesn't contradict God. My soul (mind, will and emotions) and body need to be put under subjection to God's word. That is something I need to do as an obedient daughter of Christ. It is also the thing I most desire to do!

Romans 12:2
Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.

[LightHammer]

It is a very simple question. You just emitted that god does ordain leadership for his Church. So what happens when you say that baptism is not necessary for salvation and God's ordained leader says it is?

[Lively Stone]

It is a very simple question. You just emitted that god does ordain leadership for his Church. So what happens when you say that baptism is not necessary for salvation and God's ordained leader says it is?

I emit light. I admit nothing that proves your points.


All born again and Holy Spirit-filled believers know that baptism is not a requirement for salvation. It is an evidence of it Any 'leader' who disagrees is not a leader I should follow, nor is he or she one that God has ordained. Friuit! Fruit! Fruit! We are called to be fruit inspectors!

[Hehealedme]

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[LightHammer]

I get that Healedme but its kindof irrelevant.

Yes we are all Fishers but there is an ordained leadership here and you all are disrespecting God by discarding His leadership.

Your pride and arrogance is distorting the path the Early Church followed and establishing your man made way.

[Hehealedme]

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[LightHammer]

The one in the NT. The one that followed the Apostolic leadership, including their successors and appointed leaders. The Church that did not practice or belief in Sola Scriptura but instead upheld 2Thessalonians 2:15.

The Church Christ started and left under the physical PHYSICAL leadership of His Apostles. The Church that followed the physical PHYSICAL leaders that the Apostles chose to succeed them.


That Early Church.

The same Church you're about to dissociate from all these Truths concerning who they are and how they practiced the Faith and impose your new way of practicing the Faith on them.


That Early Church. 

[chestertonrules]

I get that Healedme but its kindof irrelevant.

Yes we are all Fishers but there is an ordained leadership here and you all are disrespecting God by discarding His leadership.

Your pride and arrogance is distorting the path the Early Church followed and establishing your man made way.

Can you remind me what ''Early Church'' you are talking about please?...

Jesus only started one Church.  The Early Church is this church, the Catholic Church.

[chestertonrules]

You sound dumb. If the Church is Christ's Flock how can of His sheep be Shepards as well?


You quite literally have to rape away destroy the meaning of Flock and Shepard and recreate them to fit your twisted ideology.

Don't you get it, LightHammer?!?!?!...we are to be fishers of men, just like the Apostles were!...

Jesus distinctly separates the role of the church leader from the rest of us.

We are among those who will believe their message.  We don't get to make our own message.

[Hehealedme]

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