Papacy - right or wrong?

[John 10:10]

At least the RCC after Vatican II recognizes that separated brethren live outside the RCC.   I'm sorry that you and others do not.  Maybe you should listen more to the RCC after 1965 than before.

I've made the decision to trust ONLY in my Lord Jesus Christ for God's salvation.  So have all who have truly received God's salvation, both inside and outside the RCC, since the Body of Christ began in Acts 2.

I will let God judge me on His salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, where I park my Christian car, and how I live my life in praise, worship, and service for Him.

You are making assumptions that have nothing to do with what I posted.

When the words of scripture don't fit your dogma, you rely on your own understanding and disregard uncomfortable passages as they appear in scripture.   However, this has nothing to do with the legitimacy of your faith, it has to do with your grasp and acceptance of the fullness of Truth.  

Now we are getting somewhere.  Since you are not questioning the legitimacy of my faith in God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ only, only questioning my grasp and acceptance of the fullness of truth as the RCC sees it, then let's just agree to disagree and let God judge what is the fullness of His Truth.  You are satisfied that you have the fullness of God's truth within the RCC, and I am satisfied that I have the fullness of God's Truth outside the RCC.  It's only taken hundreds of posts to get us to this stalemate.

Well you truly are a dense one if you didn't know that they accepted this view from before you were even apart of this thread. Like I said you obviously have no interest in understanding our catholic brethren. It comes as no surprise. Most protestants are like this.

So passes yet another one of the continuous waves of bias spreading falsehoods and arrogance.

Before you go I would like to ask why you think Scripture and the Church are not in perfect harmony. How exactly does the Church contradict Scripture?  

In all my discussions with chestertonrules, he did question the legitimacy of my faith in God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ only, continually saying that God's salvation is in the Church - the RCC as God's appointed instrument on earth.  The RCC certainly did so before 1965.

To answer your question, I will give you the same statement I gave him which he did/could not answer:

No where recorded in Scripture after John 20:23 do any of Jesus' apostles/servants tell sinners they have God's power and authority to extend God's salvation grace to them, and that God saves them because they are acting as God's authorized mediator.  It is the RCC that prefers a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ as recorded by practice in His Word.

[Selene]

The Catholic Church does not follow nor have a non-authoritative human tradition.  Christ is the Head of our Church and has always been in authority.  Because He is the Head of our Church, we carry out His gospels.  After all, Jesus said, "He who hears you, hears me and he who rejects you rejects me."  It was the Head of the Church who instructs the priests and bishops what to preach.  Our authority came from Christ who is the Head of our Church.   

[mclees8]

I think I follow you Mclees8. You are saying that there are physical and spiritual truths.

Like the color of the sky verses the divinity of Jesus. Is that about right?

I agree but my point still remains that not every spiritual truth is contained in scripture. There are spiritual truths that weren't addressed at the time scripture record and therefore they are not present in its contents. Like abortion, artifical birth, the role of Mary, the communion of the saints belonging to the Church Triumphant. You have to understand that scripture ways recorded when the Church was still a baby. Christ entrusted His authorative followers to recieve the truth of the Holy Spirit and deliver it when the time came for the Church to grow and mature.

Are you saying then you believe that  Gods word is incomplete. That it does not contain enough for one to find truth and salvation and receive the Holy Spirit and Gods fullness of grace. You will never convince me of that. You are saying that he gave the apostles incomplete revelation. Yet throughout the the New testament and Christ gospel we are warned  not to follow after every wind of doctrine. How can we put all our faith in men. Men who conceive every vain imagination. Men who appear as angels  of light able to fool the very elect. We know that Satan knows the word of God and how to twist it and use use it to his own advantage. You want to say the the bible is not supernatural spiritual truth. i say it contains everything we need to have Gods fullness of truth and that truth is available to all who hear Christ and walk in the power of His holy Spirit and grace.

So why does the RCC not want you to believe this?. Because it challenges the very authority they despeartly need to keep its followers in captivity to itself. That without them they can never be complete or receive the fullness of truth.

God bless 

[tinker]

The Catholic Church does not follow nor have a non-authoritative human tradition.  Christ is the Head of our Church and has always been in authority.  Because He is the Head of our Church, we carry out His gospels.  After all, Jesus said, "He who hears you, hears me and he who rejects you rejects me."  It was the Head of the Church who instructs the priests and bishops what to preach.  Our authority came from Christ who is the Head of our Church.   

What gospel are you preaching,please tell me,I'm curious to know your gospel.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2000 yrs ago when the above was written,satan is already at work,read verse 2.11,be very careful what you believe is not a strong delusion.

[chestertonrules]

Now we are getting somewhere.  Since you are not questioning the legitimacy of my faith in God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ only, only questioning my grasp and acceptance of the fullness of truth as the RCC sees it, then let's just agree to disagree and let God judge what is the fullness of His Truth.  You are satisfied that you have the fullness of God's truth within the RCC, and I am satisfied that I have the fullness of God's Truth outside the RCC.  It's only taken hundreds of posts to get us to this stalemate.

I like to debate theology and I believe it is important that we be able to defend our beliefs.  I hope you are enjoying the exchanges here as much as I am.

Jesus wants us to be one as he and the Father are one.  That won't happen outside of the Catholic Church.

If we want what Jesus wants, then we must seek Christian unity in the fullness of Truth.

I think I have clearly demonstrated that there are major doctrinal contradictions among Christians outside of Catholicism.

This is not consistent with the Church Jesus built and describes in scripture.

The Catholic Church is consistent with the biblical description of the Church.

[tinker]

Now we are getting somewhere.  Since you are not questioning the legitimacy of my faith in God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ only, only questioning my grasp and acceptance of the fullness of truth as the RCC sees it, then let's just agree to disagree and let God judge what is the fullness of His Truth.  You are satisfied that you have the fullness of God's truth within the RCC, and I am satisfied that I have the fullness of God's Truth outside the RCC.  It's only taken hundreds of posts to get us to this stalemate.

I like to debate theology and I believe it is important that we be able to defend our beliefs.  I hope you are enjoying the exchanges here as much as I am.

Jesus wants us to be one as he and the Father are one.  That won't happen outside of the Catholic Church.

If we want what Jesus wants, then we must seek Christian unity in the fullness of Truth.

I think I have clearly demonstrated that there are major doctrinal contradictions among Christians outside of Catholicism.

This is not consistent with the Church Jesus built and describes in scripture.

The Catholic Church is consistent with the biblical description of the Church.

I presumed you are a priest.

[John 10:10]

Now we are getting somewhere.  Since you are not questioning the legitimacy of my faith in God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ only, only questioning my grasp and acceptance of the fullness of truth as the RCC sees it, then let's just agree to disagree and let God judge what is the fullness of His Truth.  You are satisfied that you have the fullness of God's truth within the RCC, and I am satisfied that I have the fullness of God's Truth outside the RCC.  It's only taken hundreds of posts to get us to this stalemate.

I like to debate theology and I believe it is important that we be able to defend our beliefs.  I hope you are enjoying the exchanges here as much as I am.

Jesus wants us to be one as he and the Father are one.  That won't happen outside of the Catholic Church.

If we want what Jesus wants, then we must seek Christian unity in the fullness of Truth.

I think I have clearly demonstrated that there are major doctrinal contradictions among Christians outside of Catholicism.

This is not consistent with the Church Jesus built and describes in scripture.

The Catholic Church is consistent with the biblical description of the Church.  

Yes, Jesus prayed that His Body of Believers would be ONE (John 17) just as He and the Father are ONE.  This unity is found first in the Spirit (Eph 4:3) until we come into the unity of the faith (Eph 4:13).  Even if every Spirit-born Christian suddenly jumped on the RCC bandwagon, this would not produce the unity Jesus prayed for.  Forcing Christians from the top down to have unity of the faith will never produce unity.  Only by every Christian who honors/receives Jesus as Lord maintaining the unity of the Spirit they already have produces UNITY.

The biblical Church that I know and love is composed of all blood bought, Spirit-born Christians down thru the ages.  We will have to disagree on your definition of the Church, and where the fullness of Truth lies.

[chestertonrules]

The biblical Church that I know and love is composed of all blood bought, Spirit-born Christians down thru the ages.  We will have to disagree on your definition of the Church, and where the fullness of Truth lies.

Why do so many bible alone Christians like you disagree on central matters of the faith?

For example, there is disagreement about:


1) Is a person once saved always saved?

2) Is salvation by faith alone?

3) Is baptism necessary for salvation?

4) Is infant baptism valid?

5) Are gifts of the spirit necessary signs of salvation?


You have an answer for each of these questions.  However, there are bible believing Christians who disagree with you for each of these questions.

These are important aspects of our faith.  Do you really think the Holy Spirit is leading Christians in opposition directions regarding these questions?

[chestertonrules]

Now we are getting somewhere.  Since you are not questioning the legitimacy of my faith in God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ only, only questioning my grasp and acceptance of the fullness of truth as the RCC sees it, then let's just agree to disagree and let God judge what is the fullness of His Truth.  You are satisfied that you have the fullness of God's truth within the RCC, and I am satisfied that I have the fullness of God's Truth outside the RCC.  It's only taken hundreds of posts to get us to this stalemate.

I like to debate theology and I believe it is important that we be able to defend our beliefs.  I hope you are enjoying the exchanges here as much as I am.

Jesus wants us to be one as he and the Father are one.  That won't happen outside of the Catholic Church.

If we want what Jesus wants, then we must seek Christian unity in the fullness of Truth.

I think I have clearly demonstrated that there are major doctrinal contradictions among Christians outside of Catholicism.

This is not consistent with the Church Jesus built and describes in scripture.

The Catholic Church is consistent with the biblical description of the Church.

I presumed you are a priest.

Ha!


No, I'm the father of six kids.

I am also a convert.  I was born again in a Baptist Church and was raised in a strong bible believing home.  It is only by the grace of God that have been able to come into the fullness of Truth that is the Church Jesus gave us.

I thank God for my strong biblical upbringing and for the opportunity to find that there is even more available for us in the Catholic Church!

[tinker]

Now we are getting somewhere.  Since you are not questioning the legitimacy of my faith in God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ only, only questioning my grasp and acceptance of the fullness of truth as the RCC sees it, then let's just agree to disagree and let God judge what is the fullness of His Truth.  You are satisfied that you have the fullness of God's truth within the RCC, and I am satisfied that I have the fullness of God's Truth outside the RCC.  It's only taken hundreds of posts to get us to this stalemate.

I like to debate theology and I believe it is important that we be able to defend our beliefs.  I hope you are enjoying the exchanges here as much as I am.

Jesus wants us to be one as he and the Father are one.  That won't happen outside of the Catholic Church.

If we want what Jesus wants, then we must seek Christian unity in the fullness of Truth.

I think I have clearly demonstrated that there are major doctrinal contradictions among Christians outside of Catholicism.

This is not consistent with the Church Jesus built and describes in scripture.

The Catholic Church is consistent with the biblical description of the Church.

I presumed you are a priest.

Ha!


No, I'm the father of six kids.

I am also a convert.  I was born again in a Baptist Church and was raised in a strong bible believing home.  It is only by the grace of God that have been able to come into the fullness of Truth that is the Church Jesus gave us.

I thank God for my strong biblical upbringing and for the opportunity to find that there is even more available for us in the Catholic Church!

Since you enjoy debate so much,perhaps you would like to debate with James White,this is his website below..
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/

Links to some interesting articles below..

About Roman Catholicism.......http://vintage.aomin.org/Morrow.html

Go thru the list of subjects in which some of them are debates with well known RC apologist.

[John 10:10]

The biblical Church that I know and love is composed of all blood bought, Spirit-born Christians down thru the ages.  We will have to disagree on your definition of the Church, and where the fullness of Truth lies.

Why do so many bible alone Christians like you disagree on central matters of the faith?

For example, there is disagreement about:

1) Is a person once saved always saved?

2) Is salvation by faith alone?

3) Is baptism necessary for salvation?

4) Is infant baptism valid?

5) Are gifts of the spirit necessary signs of salvation?

You have an answer for each of these questions.  However, there are bible believing Christians who disagree with you for each of these questions.

These are important aspects of our faith.  Do you really think the Holy Spirit is leading Christians in opposition directions regarding these questions.  

You are drifting far from this topic subject - Papacy - right or wrong?  There are many other forum topics that cover these subjects with most Christians at this forum.

There is only one matter essential to God's grace salvation in Christ Jesus,

Acts 2:38-39  "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.  For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Every sinner whom the Lord is drawing to Himself can hear this message (John 6:44), and enter in God's salvation directly.

[chestertonrules]

I've seen James White soundly defeated in debates by more than one Catholic, including Patrick Madrid.

[LightHammer]

Are you saying then you believe that  Gods word is incomplete. That it does not contain enough for one to find truth and salvation and receive the Holy Spirit and Gods fullness of grace. You will never convince me of that.

No I am not saying God's Word is incomplete. I completely believe that a christian armed with faith in scripture and the Holy Spirit has ALL they need for not just their own salvation but lead good and helathy Christian lives. What I am saying is simple; I do not believe that they can never experience the fullness of truth without the Church. The will never be able to fully grasp the entirety of what God meant us to have for nurishment of spirits.

You are saying that he gave the apostles incomplete revelation. Yet throughout the the New testament and Christ gospel we are warned  not to follow after every wind of doctrine. How can we put all our faith in men. Men who conceive every vain imagination. Men who appear as angels  of light able to fool the very elect. We know that Satan knows the word of God and how to twist it and use use it to his own advantage.

No. I am saying the Apostles were given all they needed for that time and as the Church was meant to grow the Holy Spirit was meant to come and deliver all they would need for the times to come.

John 16:12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Scripture records the Truth of all they knew needed for at that time which is all we need for our own salvation (of course if people had all they need in that time for their salvation it is only true that it applies to us as well). Jesus clearly says that there is more to the Truths of what He already revealed and would reveal in His lifetime and the Holy Spirit would come and reveal it to the leaders of the Church in the time they needed it most.

You want to say the the bible is not supernatural spiritual truth. i say it contains everything we need to have Gods fullness of truth and that truth is available to all who hear Christ and walk in the power of His holy Spirit and grace.

Also a misunderstanding. I said scripture is not all as is containing every spiritual truth there is in existence. Every truth dealing with God or dealing with what God wanted us to know about life, NOT WHAT IS NEEDED FOR SALVATION simply truths He wanted us to know in life, is not documented in scipture's 66 booked protestant bible.

So why does the RCC not want you to believe this?. Because it challenges the very authority they despeartly need to keep its followers in captivity to itself. That without them they can never be complete or receive the fullness of truth.

I think I've proven my point but I'll just wait and see what you have to say.

[tinker]

Are Roman Catholics saved?  Good site for RC to learn the truth...

http://so4j.com/catholics-are-they-saved.php

[LightHammer]

Are Roman Catholics saved?  Good site for RC to learn the truth...

http://so4j.com/catholics-are-they-saved.php

You are a pretty sick person if you think you have the capacity to imply whether or not anyone is saved. There is one Divine Judge and One who has any right to vengence and the judgement of others whether outwardly or inwardly and that is God Almighty.

I was raised up to have respect for my elders and show reverence to them but I was not raised to hold my tongue in the face of corruption and mere men acting as if they have the capacities for things God has reserved for Himself.

Even the Mother Church, with all her alleged sin and falsehood, has never made any claim that saves you are without salvation so how dare you think to make the claim of anyone else?

[Catholica]

Are Roman Catholics saved?  Good site for RC to learn the truth...

http://so4j.com/catholics-are-they-saved.php

Would it make you feel better if we weren't?

[chestertonrules]

Are Roman Catholics saved?  Good site for RC to learn the truth...

http://so4j.com/catholics-are-they-saved.php

You don't care about the Truth.

You keep repeating lies about Catholics.

You reject scripture as well.  For example:

Romans 2
6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done.

[mclees8]

Are you saying then you believe that  Gods word is incomplete. That it does not contain enough for one to find truth and salvation and receive the Holy Spirit and Gods fullness of grace. You will never convince me of that.

No I am not saying God's Word is incomplete. I completely believe that a christian armed with faith in scripture and the Holy Spirit has ALL they need for not just their own salvation but lead good and helathy Christian lives. What I am saying is simple; I do not believe that they can never experience the fullness of truth without the Church. The will never be able to fully grasp the entirety of what God meant us to have for nurishment of spirits.

You are saying that he gave the apostles incomplete revelation. Yet throughout the the New testament and Christ gospel we are warned  not to follow after every wind of doctrine. How can we put all our faith in men. Men who conceive every vain imagination. Men who appear as angels  of light able to fool the very elect. We know that Satan knows the word of God and how to twist it and use use it to his own advantage.

No. I am saying the Apostles were given all they needed for that time and as the Church was meant to grow the Holy Spirit was meant to come and deliver all they would need for the times to come.

John 16:12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Scripture records the Truth of all they knew needed for at that time which is all we need for our own salvation (of course if people had all they need in that time for their salvation it is only true that it applies to us as well). Jesus clearly says that there is more to the Truths of what He already revealed and would reveal in His lifetime and the Holy Spirit would come and reveal it to the leaders of the Church in the time they needed it most.

You want to say the the bible is not supernatural spiritual truth. i say it contains everything we need to have Gods fullness of truth and that truth is available to all who hear Christ and walk in the power of His holy Spirit and grace.

Also a misunderstanding. I said scripture is not all as is containing every spiritual truth there is in existence. Every truth dealing with God or dealing with what God wanted us to know about life, NOT WHAT IS NEEDED FOR SALVATION simply truths He wanted us to know in life, is not documented in scipture's 66 booked protestant bible.

So why does the RCC not want you to believe this?. Because it challenges the very authority they despeartly need to keep its followers in captivity to itself. That without them they can never be complete or receive the fullness of truth.

I think I've proven my point but I'll just wait and see what you have to say.

LH I have been in and of the church for at least thirty years now. I have sat under many teachers and pastors. Yes they were truly a vital role in my spiritual growth and maturity. But they were not all I needed alone, and as you have pointed out with scripture The Holy spirit will reveal more truth as we are able. I have seen many things in this thing we call Christianity that has disturbed me, and much more than i could speak about right now. In my walk the Lord has shown me much that i would not have been able to understand while i was still a babe, but he has revealed much to me as i was able to receive it. I have had revelations visions and dreams. I do not say the Lord as shown me everything yet, but I know a multitude i did not know, or was able to know, when i was just a young believer.

You are not complete or have all the fullness because of your organized church relationship.  You have the fullness through faith in Christ . You are also given more spiritual truth and understanding as you allow the Holy Spirit to mature you in Christ . When i go through trials I am comforted by the Lord. He speaks to me in many ways to let me know that i am not some insignificant speck in an ocean of sand. I respect Giver when he was saying that Jesus sits in you very house with you and hears every prayer and he spiritually wraps his arms around me and tells me not to fear and to trust him for my future. He has plans for me i do not know yet so I am comforted in that My Lord is never far from.  I do not call any denomination my church, but i am the church and the church walking. I am just as much alive in Christ today as when I sat under pastors and teachers and maybe more so because I know I just don't see Jesus in Church on Sunday but he walks with me every day. He is ith when i go to sleep and he is with me when i awake.

God bless

[LightHammer]

Are you saying then you believe that  Gods word is incomplete. That it does not contain enough for one to find truth and salvation and receive the Holy Spirit and Gods fullness of grace. You will never convince me of that.

No I am not saying God's Word is incomplete. I completely believe that a christian armed with faith in scripture and the Holy Spirit has ALL they need for not just their own salvation but lead good and helathy Christian lives. What I am saying is simple; I do not believe that they can never experience the fullness of truth without the Church. The will never be able to fully grasp the entirety of what God meant us to have for nurishment of spirits.

You are saying that he gave the apostles incomplete revelation. Yet throughout the the New testament and Christ gospel we are warned  not to follow after every wind of doctrine. How can we put all our faith in men. Men who conceive every vain imagination. Men who appear as angels  of light able to fool the very elect. We know that Satan knows the word of God and how to twist it and use use it to his own advantage.

No. I am saying the Apostles were given all they needed for that time and as the Church was meant to grow the Holy Spirit was meant to come and deliver all they would need for the times to come.

John 16:12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Scripture records the Truth of all they knew needed for at that time which is all we need for our own salvation (of course if people had all they need in that time for their salvation it is only true that it applies to us as well). Jesus clearly says that there is more to the Truths of what He already revealed and would reveal in His lifetime and the Holy Spirit would come and reveal it to the leaders of the Church in the time they needed it most.

You want to say the the bible is not supernatural spiritual truth. i say it contains everything we need to have Gods fullness of truth and that truth is available to all who hear Christ and walk in the power of His holy Spirit and grace.

Also a misunderstanding. I said scripture is not all as is containing every spiritual truth there is in existence. Every truth dealing with God or dealing with what God wanted us to know about life, NOT WHAT IS NEEDED FOR SALVATION simply truths He wanted us to know in life, is not documented in scipture's 66 booked protestant bible.

So why does the RCC not want you to believe this?. Because it challenges the very authority they despeartly need to keep its followers in captivity to itself. That without them they can never be complete or receive the fullness of truth.

I think I've proven my point but I'll just wait and see what you have to say.

LH I have been in and of the church for at least thirty years now. I have sat under many teachers and pastors. Yes they were truly a vital role in my spiritual growth and maturity. But they were not all I needed alone, and as you have pointed out with scripture The Holy spirit will reveal more truth as we are able. I have seen many things in this thing we call Christianity that has disturbed me, and much more than i could speak about right now. In my walk the Lord has shown me much that i would not have been able to understand while i was still a babe, but he has revealed much to me as i was able to receive it. I have had revelations visions and dreams. I do not say the Lord as shown me everything yet, but I know a multitude i did not know, or was able to know, when i was just a young believer.

You are not complete or have all the fullness because of your organized church relationship.  You have the fullness through faith in Christ . You are also given more spiritual truth and understanding as you allow the Holy Spirit to mature you in Christ . When i go through trials I am comforted by the Lord. He speaks to me in many ways to let me know that i am not some insignificant speck in an ocean of sand. I respect Giver when he was saying that Jesus sits in you very house with you and hears every prayer and he spiritually wraps his arms around me and tells me not to fear and to trust him for my future. He has plans for me i do not know yet so I am comforted in that My Lord is never far from.  I do not call any denomination my church, but i am the church and the church walking. I am just as much alive in Christ today as when I sat under pastors and teachers and maybe more so because I know I just don't see Jesus in Church on Sunday but he walks with me every day. He is ith when i go to sleep and he is with me when i awake.

God bless

So basically you think you can truly grasp the fullness of Truth if you spent a lifetime in study? You think that you a mere man who will live no more than a mere 98 years max, can actually realize all that God the Almighty Infinite Father, has begotten from Himself and prepared for us? You really think that just because you love God and walk with Him that you even have the spiritual capacity to engulf the fullness, the sheer dominant radiant brilliant light that is God in His entirety?

[LightHammer]

Are you saying then you believe that  Gods word is incomplete. That it does not contain enough for one to find truth and salvation and receive the Holy Spirit and Gods fullness of grace. You will never convince me of that.

No I am not saying God's Word is incomplete. I completely believe that a christian armed with faith in scripture and the Holy Spirit has ALL they need for not just their own salvation but lead good and helathy Christian lives. What I am saying is simple; I do not believe that they can never experience the fullness of truth without the Church. The will never be able to fully grasp the entirety of what God meant us to have for nurishment of spirits.

You are saying that he gave the apostles incomplete revelation. Yet throughout the the New testament and Christ gospel we are warned  not to follow after every wind of doctrine. How can we put all our faith in men. Men who conceive every vain imagination. Men who appear as angels  of light able to fool the very elect. We know that Satan knows the word of God and how to twist it and use use it to his own advantage.

No. I am saying the Apostles were given all they needed for that time and as the Church was meant to grow the Holy Spirit was meant to come and deliver all they would need for the times to come.

John 16:12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Scripture records the Truth of all they knew needed for at that time which is all we need for our own salvation (of course if people had all they need in that time for their salvation it is only true that it applies to us as well). Jesus clearly says that there is more to the Truths of what He already revealed and would reveal in His lifetime and the Holy Spirit would come and reveal it to the leaders of the Church in the time they needed it most.

You want to say the the bible is not supernatural spiritual truth. i say it contains everything we need to have Gods fullness of truth and that truth is available to all who hear Christ and walk in the power of His holy Spirit and grace.

Also a misunderstanding. I said scripture is not all as is containing every spiritual truth there is in existence. Every truth dealing with God or dealing with what God wanted us to know about life, NOT WHAT IS NEEDED FOR SALVATION simply truths He wanted us to know in life, is not documented in scipture's 66 booked protestant bible.

So why does the RCC not want you to believe this?. Because it challenges the very authority they despeartly need to keep its followers in captivity to itself. That without them they can never be complete or receive the fullness of truth.

I think I've proven my point but I'll just wait and see what you have to say.

LH I have been in and of the church for at least thirty years now. I have sat under many teachers and pastors. Yes they were truly a vital role in my spiritual growth and maturity. But they were not all I needed alone, and as you have pointed out with scripture The Holy spirit will reveal more truth as we are able. I have seen many things in this thing we call Christianity that has disturbed me, and much more than i could speak about right now. In my walk the Lord has shown me much that i would not have been able to understand while i was still a babe, but he has revealed much to me as i was able to receive it. I have had revelations visions and dreams. I do not say the Lord as shown me everything yet, but I know a multitude i did not know, or was able to know, when i was just a young believer.

You are not complete or have all the fullness because of your organized church relationship.  You have the fullness through faith in Christ . You are also given more spiritual truth and understanding as you allow the Holy Spirit to mature you in Christ . When i go through trials I am comforted by the Lord. He speaks to me in many ways to let me know that i am not some insignificant speck in an ocean of sand. I respect Giver when he was saying that Jesus sits in you very house with you and hears every prayer and he spiritually wraps his arms around me and tells me not to fear and to trust him for my future. He has plans for me i do not know yet so I am comforted in that My Lord is never far from.  I do not call any denomination my church, but i am the church and the church walking. I am just as much alive in Christ today as when I sat under pastors and teachers and maybe more so because I know I just don't see Jesus in Church on Sunday but he walks with me every day. He is ith when i go to sleep and he is with me when i awake.

God bless

You believe you can take Scripture which is merely a piece of God and come to the fullness of God which infinitely surpasses what Scripture records?

[tinker]

Are Roman Catholics saved?  Good site for RC to learn the truth...

http://so4j.com/catholics-are-they-saved.php

You don't care about the Truth.

You keep repeating lies about Catholics.

You reject scripture as well.  For example:

Romans 2
6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done.

[Selene]

Are Roman Catholics saved?  Good site for RC to learn the truth...

http://so4j.com/catholics-are-they-saved.php

You don't care about the Truth.

You keep repeating lies about Catholics.

You reject scripture as well.  For example:

Romans 2
6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done.

[chestertonrules]

Are Roman Catholics saved?  Good site for RC to learn the truth...

http://so4j.com/catholics-are-they-saved.php

You don't care about the Truth.

You keep repeating lies about Catholics.

You reject scripture as well.  For example:

Romans 2
6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done.

[mclees8]

Are you saying then you believe that  Gods word is incomplete. That it does not contain enough for one to find truth and salvation and receive the Holy Spirit and Gods fullness of grace. You will never convince me of that.

No I am not saying God's Word is incomplete. I completely believe that a christian armed with faith in scripture and the Holy Spirit has ALL they need for not just their own salvation but lead good and helathy Christian lives. What I am saying is simple; I do not believe that they can never experience the fullness of truth without the Church. The will never be able to fully grasp the entirety of what God meant us to have for nurishment of spirits.

You are saying that he gave the apostles incomplete revelation. Yet throughout the the New testament and Christ gospel we are warned  not to follow after every wind of doctrine. How can we put all our faith in men. Men who conceive every vain imagination. Men who appear as angels  of light able to fool the very elect. We know that Satan knows the word of God and how to twist it and use use it to his own advantage.

No. I am saying the Apostles were given all they needed for that time and as the Church was meant to grow the Holy Spirit was meant to come and deliver all they would need for the times to come.

John 16:12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Scripture records the Truth of all they knew needed for at that time which is all we need for our own salvation (of course if people had all they need in that time for their salvation it is only true that it applies to us as well). Jesus clearly says that there is more to the Truths of what He already revealed and would reveal in His lifetime and the Holy Spirit would come and reveal it to the leaders of the Church in the time they needed it most.

You want to say the the bible is not supernatural spiritual truth. i say it contains everything we need to have Gods fullness of truth and that truth is available to all who hear Christ and walk in the power of His holy Spirit and grace.

Also a misunderstanding. I said scripture is not all as is containing every spiritual truth there is in existence. Every truth dealing with God or dealing with what God wanted us to know about life, NOT WHAT IS NEEDED FOR SALVATION simply truths He wanted us to know in life, is not documented in scipture's 66 booked protestant bible.

So why does the RCC not want you to believe this?. Because it challenges the very authority they despeartly need to keep its followers in captivity to itself. That without them they can never be complete or receive the fullness of truth.

I think I've proven my point but I'll just wait and see what you have to say.

LH I have been in and of the church for at least thirty years now. I have sat under many teachers and pastors. Yes they were truly a vital role in my spiritual growth and maturity. But they were not all I needed alone, and as you have pointed out with scripture The Holy spirit will reveal more truth as we are able. I have seen many things in this thing we call Christianity that has disturbed me, and much more than i could speak about right now. In my walk the Lord has shown me much that i would not have been able to understand while i was still a babe, but he has revealed much to me as i was able to receive it. I have had revelations visions and dreams. I do not say the Lord as shown me everything yet, but I know a multitude i did not know, or was able to know, when i was just a young believer.

You are not complete or have all the fullness because of your organized church relationship.  You have the fullness through faith in Christ . You are also given more spiritual truth and understanding as you allow the Holy Spirit to mature you in Christ . When i go through trials I am comforted by the Lord. He speaks to me in many ways to let me know that i am not some insignificant speck in an ocean of sand. I respect Giver when he was saying that Jesus sits in you very house with you and hears every prayer and he spiritually wraps his arms around me and tells me not to fear and to trust him for my future. He has plans for me i do not know yet so I am comforted in that My Lord is never far from.  I do not call any denomination my church, but i am the church and the church walking. I am just as much alive in Christ today as when I sat under pastors and teachers and maybe more so because I know I just don't see Jesus in Church on Sunday but he walks with me every day. He is ith when i go to sleep and he is with me when i awake.

God bless

So basically you think you can truly grasp the fullness of Truth if you spent a lifetime in study? You think that you a mere man who will live no more than a mere 98 years max, can actually realize all that God the Almighty Infinite Father, has begotten from Himself and prepared for us? You really think that just because you love God and walk with Him that you even have the spiritual capacity to engulf the fullness, the sheer dominant radiant brilliant light that is God in His entirety?

LH you can study an eternity and never have the fullness. I don't really think you understood a word I said. Jesus is the fullness of Gods grace given for us. He who receives Him has received his fullness. It is true this mortal must put on immortality. It is also true that eye has not nor ear heard those thing which God has prepared for those who love Him .

God bless

[John 10:10]

At least the RCC after Vatican II recognizes that separated brethren live outside the RCC.   I'm sorry that you and others do not.  Maybe you should listen more to the RCC after 1965 than before.

I've made the decision to trust ONLY in my Lord Jesus Christ for God's salvation.  So have all who have truly received God's salvation, both inside and outside the RCC, since the Body of Christ began in Acts 2.

I will let God judge me on His salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, where I park my Christian car, and how I live my life in praise, worship, and service for Him.

You are making assumptions that have nothing to do with what I posted.

When the words of scripture don't fit your dogma, you rely on your own understanding and disregard uncomfortable passages as they appear in scripture.   However, this has nothing to do with the legitimacy of your faith, it has to do with your grasp and acceptance of the fullness of Truth.  

Now we are getting somewhere.  Since you are not questioning the legitimacy of my faith in God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ only, only questioning my grasp and acceptance of the fullness of truth as the RCC sees it, then let's just agree to disagree and let God judge what is the fullness of His Truth.  You are satisfied that you have the fullness of God's truth within the RCC, and I am satisfied that I have the fullness of God's Truth outside the RCC.  It's only taken hundreds of posts to get us to this stalemate.

Well you truly are a dense one if you didn't know that they accepted this view from before you were even apart of this thread. Like I said you obviously have no interest in understanding our catholic brethren. It comes as no surprise. Most protestants are like this.

So passes yet another one of the continuous waves of bias spreading falsehoods and arrogance.

Before you go I would like to ask why you think Scripture and the Church are not in perfect harmony. How exactly does the Church contradict Scripture?

Pope John XXIII sums up the official position of the RCC before 1965:

Pope John XXIII:

"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII, homily to the Bishops assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, Boston, St. Paul Editions, 1962, par. 1556.)

"And you, venerable brothers, will not fail, in your teaching, to recall to the flocks entrusted to you these grand and salutary truths; we cannot render to God the devotion that is due Him and that is pleasing to Him nor is it possible to be united to Him except through Jesus Christ; and it is not possible to be united to Jesus Christ except in the Church and through the Church, His Mystical Body, and, finally, it is not possible to belong to the Church except through the bishops, successors of the Apostles, united to the Supreme Pastor, the successor of Peter." (Pope John XXIII, Address on the creation of three new dioceses on Taiwan, L'Osseratore Romano, June 29, 1961.)

It seems I was wrong that the official position of the RCC has changed since 1965:

Pope John Paul I:

"According to the words of St. Augustine, who takes up an image dear to the ancient Fathers, the ship of the Church must not fear, because it is guided by Christ and by His Vicar. 'Although the ship is tossed about, it is still a ship. It alone carries the disciples and receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea, but, without it, one would immediately perish." (Sermon, 75,3; PL 28, 475) Only in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

"It is difficult to accept some truths, because the truths of faith are of two kinds: some pleasant, others unpalatable to our spirit. For example, it is pleasant to hear that God has so much tenderness for us, even more tenderness than a mother for her children. Other truths, on the contrary, are hard to accept. God must punish if I resist. That is not agreeable, but it is clear that Jesus and the Church are the same thing: indissoluble, inseparable. Christ and the Church are only one thing. It is not possible to say: 'I believe in Jesus, I accept Jesus, but I do not accept the Church.' When the poor Pope, when the bishops, the priests, propose the doctrine, they are merely helping Christ. It is not our doctrine; it is Christ's: we must merely guard it and present it." (General Audience, September 13, 1978; Quoted in The Message of John Paul I, Daughters of St. Paul, Boston, 1978, pp. 106,107.)

Pope John Paul II:

"The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church...and from this genuine and single source, like 'humble, useful, precious and chaste' water, it reaches the whole world. Dear young people and members of the faithful, like Brother Francis we have to be conscious and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, consecrated by tradition: 'There is no salvation outside the Church.' From her alone there flows surely and fully the life-giving force destined in Christ and in His Spirit, to renew the whole of humanity, and therefore directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ." (Pope John Paul II, Radio Message for Franciscan Vigil in St. Peter's and Assisi, October 3, 1981, L'Osservatore Romano, October 12, 1981.)

So I guess I'm still a heritic in the eyes of the RCC, and so are you.  This is a badge of honor I'm willing to wear.

Blessings

[Selene]

I would think that it would be simple to understand that anyone who rejects the Chruch that Christ built would also be rejecting Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church that He built.  One cannot separate Christ and the Church because He made Himself one with His Church.

[John 10:10]

I would think that it would be simple to understand that anyone who rejects the Church that Christ built would also be rejecting Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church that He built.  One cannot separate Christ and the Church because He made Himself one with His Church.

Vatican II made these statements regarding separated churches/brethren:

1. All who have been "justified by faith in baptism" are members of the Body of Christ; they all have the right to be called Christian; the children of the Catholic Church accept them as brothers.
2. The Catholic Church believes that the separated Churches and communities "are efficient in some respects." But the Holy Ghost makes use of these Churches; they are means of salvation to their members.

What is simple to understand is this:  Vatican II had no real meaning, and it's business as usual with what the RCC had in place before 1965.

But, the Holy Spirit draws sinners everywhere to God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as are being saved.

[Selene]

I would think that it would be simple to understand that anyone who rejects the Church that Christ built would also be rejecting Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church that He built.  One cannot separate Christ and the Church because He made Himself one with His Church.

Vatican II made these statements regarding separated churches/brethren:

1. All who have been "justified by faith in baptism" are members of the Body of Christ; they all have the right to be called Christian; the children of the Catholic Church accept them as brothers.
2. The Catholic Church believes that the separated Churches and communities "are efficient in some respects." But the Holy Ghost makes use of these Churches; they are means of salvation to their members.

What is simple to understand is this:  Vatican II had no real meaning, and it's business as usual with what the RCC had in place before 1965.

But, the Holy Spirit draws sinners everywhere to God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as are being saved.

Yes, they are "efficient in some respects" but they do not have the fullness of Christ.  "Efficient in some respects" because some of our Protestant brethens cannot even be called "Christians" in that some don't believe in baptism or the Holy Trinity.  They are "efficient in some respects" in that they are referred to as"communities" rather than as "churches."  Even after Vatican II, it still stands that one will find the fullness of Christ in the Catholic Church because He is the Head of the Church.  The Catholic Church is NOT "efficient in some respects." 

[John 10:10]

I would think that it would be simple to understand that anyone who rejects the Church that Christ built would also be rejecting Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church that He built.  One cannot separate Christ and the Church because He made Himself one with His Church.

Vatican II made these statements regarding separated churches/brethren:

1. All who have been "justified by faith in baptism" are members of the Body of Christ; they all have the right to be called Christian; the children of the Catholic Church accept them as brothers.
2. The Catholic Church believes that the separated Churches and communities "are efficient in some respects." But the Holy Ghost makes use of these Churches; they are means of salvation to their members.

What is simple to understand is this:  Vatican II had no real meaning, and it's business as usual with what the RCC had in place before 1965.

But, the Holy Spirit draws sinners everywhere to God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as are being saved.

Yes, they are "efficient in some respects" but they do not have the fullness of Christ.  "Efficient in some respects" because some of our Protestant brethen cannot even be called "Christians" in that some don't believe in baptism or the Holy Trinity.  They are "efficient in some respects" in that they are referred to as"communities" rather than as "churches."  Even after Vatican II, it still stands that one will find the fullness of Christ in the Catholic Church because He is the Head of the Church.  The Catholic Church is NOT "efficient in some respects."  

Pope John Paul II said this:

"The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church...and from this genuine and single source, like 'humble, useful, precious and chaste' water, it reaches the whole world.  Dear young people and members of the faithful, like Brother Francis we have to be conscious and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, consecrated by tradition: 'There is no salvation outside the Church.'

According to Pope John Paul II, since there is no salvation outside the RCC Church, there can not be any Christians either, let alone Christians finding the fullness of Christ.  What's clear is that the RCC has no intentions of honoring Christians outside the RCC, no matter what Vatican II is supposed to have said.  Vatican II for "separated brethren" has no meaning whatsoever.

[tinker]

Are Roman Catholics saved?  Good site for RC to learn the truth...

http://so4j.com/catholics-are-they-saved.php

You don't care about the Truth.

You keep repeating lies about Catholics.

You reject scripture as well.  For example:

Romans 2
6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done.

[Selene]

Are Roman Catholics saved?  Good site for RC to learn the truth...

http://so4j.com/catholics-are-they-saved.php

You don't care about the Truth.

You keep repeating lies about Catholics.

You reject scripture as well.  For example:

Romans 2
6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done.

[Selene]

I would think that it would be simple to understand that anyone who rejects the Church that Christ built would also be rejecting Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church that He built.  One cannot separate Christ and the Church because He made Himself one with His Church.

Vatican II made these statements regarding separated churches/brethren:

1. All who have been "justified by faith in baptism" are members of the Body of Christ; they all have the right to be called Christian; the children of the Catholic Church accept them as brothers.
2. The Catholic Church believes that the separated Churches and communities "are efficient in some respects." But the Holy Ghost makes use of these Churches; they are means of salvation to their members.

What is simple to understand is this:  Vatican II had no real meaning, and it's business as usual with what the RCC had in place before 1965.

But, the Holy Spirit draws sinners everywhere to God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as are being saved.

Yes, they are "efficient in some respects" but they do not have the fullness of Christ.  "Efficient in some respects" because some of our Protestant brethen cannot even be called "Christians" in that some don't believe in baptism or the Holy Trinity.  They are "efficient in some respects" in that they are referred to as"communities" rather than as "churches."  Even after Vatican II, it still stands that one will find the fullness of Christ in the Catholic Church because He is the Head of the Church.  The Catholic Church is NOT "efficient in some respects."  

Pope John Paul II said this:

"The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church...and from this genuine and single source, like 'humble, useful, precious and chaste' water, it reaches the whole world.  Dear young people and members of the faithful, like Brother Francis we have to be conscious and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, consecrated by tradition: 'There is no salvation outside the Church.'

According to Pope John Paul II, if there is no salvation outside the RCC Church, there can not be any Christians either, let alone Christians finding the fullness of Christ.  What's clear is that the RCC has no intentions of honoring Christians outside the RCC, no matter what Vatican II is supposed to have said.

"No salvation outside the Church" does not mean that you are condemned to hell.  It also does not mean that there are no Christians outside the Church.  "No salvation outside the Church" is an misinterpretation of the Latin "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus."  The weblink belows explains it better from the Catholic viewpoint:  

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0043.html  

[John 10:10]

There is a difference between infallible and impeccible.  The Pope is not impeccible.  He can sin.  But the Pope is infallible ONLY in the teachings of faith and morals.  He is fallible in politics and can have his own opinion on it.  But in matters of faith and morals, he is infallible.  In other words, the Pope cannot say that adultery is okay.  He cannot say that abortion is good.  He cannot say lying is an okay thing to do.  

So were the Popes "infallible or impeccible" when they said,

'There is no salvation outside the Church,' meaning the RCC ?

[John 10:10]

I would think that it would be simple to understand that anyone who rejects the Church that Christ built would also be rejecting Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church that He built.  One cannot separate Christ and the Church because He made Himself one with His Church.

Vatican II made these statements regarding separated churches/brethren:

1. All who have been "justified by faith in baptism" are members of the Body of Christ; they all have the right to be called Christian; the children of the Catholic Church accept them as brothers.
2. The Catholic Church believes that the separated Churches and communities "are efficient in some respects." But the Holy Ghost makes use of these Churches; they are means of salvation to their members.

What is simple to understand is this:  Vatican II had no real meaning, and it's business as usual with what the RCC had in place before 1965.

But, the Holy Spirit draws sinners everywhere to God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as are being saved.

Yes, they are "efficient in some respects" but they do not have the fullness of Christ.  "Efficient in some respects" because some of our Protestant brethen cannot even be called "Christians" in that some don't believe in baptism or the Holy Trinity.  They are "efficient in some respects" in that they are referred to as"communities" rather than as "churches."  Even after Vatican II, it still stands that one will find the fullness of Christ in the Catholic Church because He is the Head of the Church.  The Catholic Church is NOT "efficient in some respects."  

Pope John Paul II said this:

"The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church...and from this genuine and single source, like 'humble, useful, precious and chaste' water, it reaches the whole world.  Dear young people and members of the faithful, like Brother Francis we have to be conscious and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, consecrated by tradition: 'There is no salvation outside the Church.'

According to Pope John Paul II, if there is no salvation outside the RCC Church, there can not be any Christians either, let alone Christians finding the fullness of Christ.  What's clear is that the RCC has no intentions of honoring Christians outside the RCC, no matter what Vatican II is supposed to have said.

"No salvation outside the Church" does not mean that you are condemned to hell.  It also does not mean that there are no Christians outside the Church.  "No salvation outside the Church" is an misinterpretation of the Latin "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus."  The weblink belows explains it better from the Catholic viewpoint:  

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0043.html  

I guess it all depends on what is is, as Bill Clinton would say!

[Selene]

Did you even bother to read the weblink I provided for you? 

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0043.html   

The above weblinks explains what "No salvation outside the Church" actually means.