Papacy - right or wrong?

[mclees8]

How about we start with this Chesterton

Pope blesses U.N. flag, calls for "binding international rules

[LightHammer]

How about we start with this Chesterton

Pope blesses U.N. flag, calls for "binding international rules

[LightHammer]

How about we start with this Chesterton

Pope blesses U.N. flag, calls for "binding international rules

[Catholica]

Mclees8,

What do you make of this following verse:

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for this man is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before Gentiles, kings, and Israelites,
Acts 9:16 and I will show him what he will have to suffer for my name.

[chestertonrules]

Excuse me. weren't you and Selene trying to disconnect the vatican from the political scene.  And i am not at all surprised you see nothing wrong here.
I not sure I want to debate for I doubt it will change what you don't understand about this but i may post some things concerning these things and why Christ is not in it.

If Jesus wanted to end world hunger or other world problems he could have done it himself. Now you will say he wanted his church do it except he did not say one word about that. He called foe his people to love his brother and care for the poor but not using world politics. The more the church looks to political solutions for the worlds problems the more it looks to antichrist. The popes position is more of God upon the earth, but Jesus never ordained that. if you think he did then show where he did.   

The pope was not establishing doctrine in the comments above.  Jesus was clear that we will be judged by, among other things, how we treat the poor.  Engagement in political and economic discussions is means of addressing the plight of the poor. 

Your mischaracterization of the pope's comments is typical, but not informative.

[mclees8]

Mclees8,

What do you make of this following verse:

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for this man is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before Gentiles, kings, and Israelites,
Acts 9:16 and I will show him what he will have to suffer for my name.

[John 10:10]

Words have precise meanings, and the words of all the Popes before 1965 and at least two Popes afterword clearly said "No salvation outside the Church."  The web site/article you referred me to is an exercise in how words mean something other than what they say, and in my opinion is nothing more than damage control by those who came after all the Popes who said otherwise.

The website I referred you to is a Catholic website explaining what it ACTUALLY means.  It was Catholics who use this phrase and only Catholics can interpret what it truely means when translated from the Latin to the English language. Now, let's take a closer look at that statement that you posted of the Pope.  

Only in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

Below is a weblink of the ENTIRE SPEECH from Pope John Paul I, from which this one sentence was taken out.  As you can see, the Pope was quoting from St. Augustine and interpreted what St. Augustine was saying.  I provided the weblink below so you can read the entire speech yourself.  

According to the words of St Augustine, an image dear to the ancient Fathers of the
Church, the ship of the Church must not fear, because it is guided by Christ and by
his Vicar: "Although the ship is tossed about, it is still a ship. It carries the disciples
and it receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would
immediately perish" (Sermon 75,3; PL 38,475). Only in the Church is salvation:
without it one perishes!

http://www.lumenchristischool.org/files/PROGRAMMEOFPOPEJOHNPAULI.pdf

OKAY....so now, why do you think they left out the part in the speech where the Pope was quoting St. Augustine who said "Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would immediately perish?"  The ship that St. Augustine was referring to that carried the disciples was the Church.  NOW, why do you think they left out that part?  Simple.  They left it out on purpose because they did not want YOU to find out that the Pope was referring to a quote of St. Augustine.  If you had just read his entire speech instead of taking one sentence out from it, then you would have understood the whole message.   

Now that we understand what Pope John Paul I & II really meant, maybe you can explain what all the other Popes meant who said the same thing in more clearer words before 1965?

For example? 

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590)
"Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church." (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604)
"Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved." (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216)
"Indeed, there is but one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215; Denz. 151)

"With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)

Pope Boniface VIII in his Bull Unam Sanctam issued in 1302:
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Denz. 469) [note: This definition (de fide definita) seems unanswerable, but the liberals boldly claim that this is not a definition intended for the universal Church, but only a pronouncement meant to deal with the local problem of Philip the Fair. But when Philip demanded of Pope Clement V, the first Avignon Pope, that he withdraw Unam Sanctam, Pope Clement did not do so, but issued the Brief Meruit February 1, 1306, which despite its extremely conciliatory tone, clearly states that Unam Sanctam contains a "definition":] "That is why we do not wish or intend that any prejudice be engendered for that king and kingdom by the definition and declaration of our predecessor Pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, which began by the words Unam Sanctam." (51 Corpus Juris Canonici, (Extravag. commun., lib. V, tit. VII, cap. 2) ed. Freiburg, Vol. II, p. 1300.)

Pope Leo X reaffirmed the teaching of Boniface VIII: (1512-1517)
"Where the necessity of salvation is concerned all the faithful of Christ must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as we are taught by Holy Scripture, the testimony of the holy fathers, and by that constitution of our predecessor of happy memory, Boniface VIII, which begins Unam Sanctam." (Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council (1512-1517) Conciliorum Oecumenicorum Decreta, Edidit Centro di Documentazione, Instituto per Science Religiose, Herder, Bologna, 1962, no. 40, pp. 619, 620.)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829)
"We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878)
"It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood." (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII: (A.D. 1878 - 1903)
"By the ministry of this Church so gloriously founded by Him, He willed to perpetuate the mission which He had Himself received from the Father; and on the one hand, having put within her all the means necessary for man's salvation, on the other hand, He formally enjoined upon men the duty of obeying His Church as Himself, and religiously taking her as a guide of their whole lives. "He that heareth you, heareth Me; he that despiseth you, despiseth me." (Luke 10:16) Therefore, it is from the Church alone that the law of Christ must be asked: and, consequently, if for man Christ is the way, the Church, too, is the way, the former of Himself and by His nature, the latter by delegation and communication of power. Consequently, all who wish to reach salvation outside the Church, are mistaken as to the way and are engaged in a vain effort." (Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical, Tametsi, November 1, 1900;

Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 647.)
"This is our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church; the strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate." (Pope Leo XIII, Allocution for the 25th anniversary of his election, February 20, 1903; Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 653.Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

"He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God." (Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope St. Pius X: A.D. 1903 - 1914)
"Strong in this faith, unshakably established on this Peter, We turn the eyes of Our soul both to the heavy obligations of this holy primacy and at the same time to the strength divinely imparted to Our heart. In peace We wait for those to be silent who are loudly proclaiming that the Catholic Church has had her day, that her teaching is hopelessly reactionary, that she will soon be reduced either to conformity with the data of science and a civilization without God, or to withdrawal from the society of men. And while We wait, it is Our duty to recall to everyone, great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation, to obtain peace, and even prosperity in our life here below. "That is why, to use the words of the Holy Pontiff, we say: "Make firm the progress of your souls, as you have begun to do, with the firmness of this rock: on it, as you know, Our Redeemer founded the Church throughout the world, so that sincere hearts, guiding their steps by her, would not stray on to the wrong road." (Pope St. Pius X, Encyclical, Jucunda sane, March 12, 1904, Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 668.)

Pope Pius XI:
"Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls? Alas their children left the home of their fathers, but it did not fall to the ground and perish for ever, for it was supported by God. Let them therefore return to their common Father, who, forgetting the insults previously heaped on the Apostolic See, will receive them in the most loving fashion. For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, 'the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?' Let them hear Lactantius crying out: 'The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this is the house of Faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind.'" (Pope Pius XI, Encyclical, Mortalium animos, January 6, 1928, The Papal Encyclicals, Claudia Carlen, I.H.M., McGrath Publishing Co., 1981, pp. 317, 318.)

Pope Pius XII: (A.D. 1939 - 1958)
"Nor against this may one argue that the primacy of jurisdiction established in the Church gives such a Mystical Body two heads. For Peter in virtue of his primacy is only Christ's Vicar; so that there is only one chief Head of this Body, namely Christ, Who never ceases Himself to guide the Church invisible, though at the same time He rules it visibly, through him who is His representative on earth, after His glorious Ascension into heaven this Church rested not on Him alone, but on Peter too, its visible foundation stone. That Christ and His Vicar constitute one only Head is the solemn teaching of Our predecessor of immortal memory Boniface VIII in the Apostolic Letter Unam Sanctam; and his successors have never ceased to repeat the same. "They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous errors who believe that they can accept Christ as the head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it." (Pope Pius XII, encyclical Mystici Corporis which appeared in 1943; The Papal Encyclicals 1939-1958, Claudia Carlen, I.H.M., McGrath Publishing Co., 1981, p. 45.)

"By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth." (Pope Pius XII, Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

"O Mary Mother of Mercy and Refuge of Sinners! We beseech thee to look with pitying eyes on poor heretics and schismatics. Do thou, who art the Seat of Wisdom, enlighten the minds wretchedly enfolded in the darkness of ignorance and sin, that they may clearly recognize the Holy, Catholic, Roman Church to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which neither sanctity nor salvation can be found. Call them to the unity of the one fold, granting them the grace to believe every truth of our holy faith and to submit themselves to the Supreme Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, that, thus being united with us by the sweet chains of charity, there may soon be but one fold under one and the same Shepherd; and may we all thus, O Glorious Virgin, exultantly sing forever: 'Rejoice, O Virgin Mary! Thou alone hast destroyed all heresies in the whole world!' Amen." (Pope Pius XII, The Raccolta, Benzinger Brothers, Boston, 1957, No. 626.)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846):
"It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved." (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922):
"Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope John XXIII:
"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII, homily to the Bishops assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, Boston, St. Paul Editions, 1962, par. 1556.)

"And you, venerable brothers, will not fail, in your teaching, to recall to the flocks entrusted to you these grand and salutary truths; we cannot render to God the devotion that is due Him and that is pleasing to Him nor is it possible to be united to Him except through Jesus Christ; and it is not possible to be united to Jesus Christ except in the Church and through the Church, His Mystical Body, and, finally, it is not possible to belong to the Church except through the bishops, successors of the Apostles, united to the Supreme Pastor, the successor of Peter." (Pope John XXIII, Address on the creation of three new dioceses on Taiwan, L'Osseratore Romano, June 29, 1961.)

[Catholica]

Mclees8,

What do you make of this following verse:

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for this man is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before Gentiles, kings, and Israelites,
Acts 9:16 and I will show him what he will have to suffer for my name.

[LightHammer]

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590)
"Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church." (Denzinger 246-247)

The Church as taught in catholicism is the universal community of believers. Yes only those who are Catholic are taught to be in full communion with the Church, however according to the official proclamation of the Catholic Church(Catechism #838) "those who have professed the name of Jesus Christ and who have also been properly baptised are placed in a certain communion with the Church if only imperfect." With that in mind you can discern that the Church teaches that without being apart of the universal community as a true believer you are not safe and can never fully experience God unless He wishes through His divine authority.

Do you disagree with this teaching?

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604)
"Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved." (Moralia)

I have already explained who makes up the Church. So I ask again do you still disagree?

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216)
"Indeed, there is but one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215; Denz. 151)

Again whats the problem? Are you not a member of the Church according to official Catholic teaching?

"With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)

In 423 AD there was no Christianity outside of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church so of course it was taught that there was no salvation outside of it. Before the Protestant Revolt, the RC, EO, and Coptics still shared a legitimate communion with eachother alothough they disagreed with one another on certain truths. In 423 AD Christianity was taught in only one place point blank.

What do you disagree with? It was the time period. Now if this was said verbatum in 1865 or so then we would have problems.lol

Pope Boniface VIII in his Bull Unam Sanctam issued in 1302:
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Denz. 469) [note: This definition (de fide definita) seems unanswerable, but the liberals boldly claim that this is not a definition intended for the universal Church, but only a pronouncement meant to deal with the local problem of Philip the Fair. But when Philip demanded of Pope Clement V, the first Avignon Pope, that he withdraw Unam Sanctam, Pope Clement did not do so, but issued the Brief Meruit February 1, 1306, which despite its extremely conciliatory tone, clearly states that Unam Sanctam contains a "definition":] "That is why we do not wish or intend that any prejudice be engendered for that king and kingdom by the definition and declaration of our predecessor Pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, which began by the words Unam Sanctam." (51 Corpus Juris Canonici, (Extravag. commun., lib. V, tit. VII, cap. 2) ed. Freiburg, Vol. II, p. 1300.)

Pope Leo X reaffirmed the teaching of Boniface VIII: (1512-1517)
"Where the necessity of salvation is concerned all the faithful of Christ must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as we are taught by Holy Scripture, the testimony of the holy fathers, and by that constitution of our predecessor of happy memory, Boniface VIII, which begins Unam Sanctam." (Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council (1512-1517) Conciliorum Oecumenicorum Decreta, Edidit Centro di Documentazione, Instituto per Science Religiose, Herder, Bologna, 1962, no. 40, pp. 619, 620.)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829)
"We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Look again at the quotes listed and the time periods and choice of wording. The Protestant Revolt took place I believe sometime in the 18th century. Notice that before there were protestants, meaning no official separation from the Church, the Catholic insisted on its submission to not the Church but to the Bishop of Rome which they believe act as the defacto head of the Church while Christ is physically in Heaven. Then look again at the quote that takes place after the Revolt. You see how the wording changes? Instead of submission to the Bishop of Rome, when the Church was unified under the leaders via Apostolic Succession, they teach now due that one merely has to be a member of the Church. According to the Catechism #838 the only requisits for being a vlaid member of the ekkelesia is "to profess the name of Jesus Christ and have been properly baptized." Nothing at all whatsoever to do with submission to the Roman Pontiff.

Come on brother I think it is clear now.

[mclees8]

A funny thing always comes to my mind That Catholics never consider. In scripture there is not one mention or prophesy from Christ that his church was to be the religious political church of the Roman Empire after five centuries One would think anything of that magnitude would certainly bore mention by the Lord.

But there was one prophesy that foretold of a religious political church that was called the great harlot  makes  one kinda  wonder don't it ?

Here  is the original comment I made that started this dialog about the political thing . Selene first commented that the Vatican does not have a political connection. then Chesterton tried to deny it also.

I proved them wrong and now you jump in wanting  to justify the political connection. You guys really need to get together here.

We all know that the Vatican papacy has been in the religious political scene from its very beginning. Reread what i said now. You say the pope has a UN seat and has a right to be there. but that is not the point. Just read again carefully what i originally stated.

The pope is not winning world leaders to Christ. The reason the apostate church is called the great harlot is because The RCC and the world political system is in bed together. Jesus and the worlds politics cannot be in the same bed together. She is courting antichrist

[LightHammer]

A funny thing always comes to my mind That Catholics never consider. In scripture there is not one mention or prophesy from Christ that his church was to be the religious political church of the Roman Empire after five centuries One would think anything of that magnitude would certainly bore mention by the Lord.

But there was one prophesy that foretold of a religious political church that was called the great harlot  makes  one kinda  wonder don't it ?

Here  is the original comment I made that started this dialog about the political thing . Selene first commented that the Vatican does not have a political connection. then Chesterton tried to deny it also.

I proved them wrong and now you jump in wanting  to justify the political connection. You guys really need to get together here.

We all know that the Vatican papacy has been in the religious political scene from its very beginning. Reread what i said now. You say the pope has a UN seat and has a right to be there. but that is not the point. Just read again carefully what i originally stated.

The pope is not winning world leaders to Christ. The reason the apostate church is called the great harlot is because The RCC and the world political system is in bed together. Jesus and the worlds politics cannot be in the same bed together. She is courting antichrist

Was that directed at me or Catholica because I dont to step on anyone's toes? Well cyber toes.

[mclees8]

A funny thing always comes to my mind That Catholics never consider. In scripture there is not one mention or prophesy from Christ that his church was to be the religious political church of the Roman Empire after five centuries One would think anything of that magnitude would certainly bore mention by the Lord.

But there was one prophesy that foretold of a religious political church that was called the great harlot  makes  one kinda  wonder don't it ?

Here  is the original comment I made that started this dialog about the political thing . Selene first commented that the Vatican does not have a political connection. then Chesterton tried to deny it also.

I proved them wrong and now you jump in wanting  to justify the political connection. You guys really need to get together here.

We all know that the Vatican papacy has been in the religious political scene from its very beginning. Reread what i said now. You say the pope has a UN seat and has a right to be there. but that is not the point. Just read again carefully what i originally stated.

The pope is not winning world leaders to Christ. The reason the apostate church is called the great harlot is because The RCC and the world political system is in bed together. Jesus and the worlds politics cannot be in the same bed together. She is courting antichrist

Was that directed at me or Catholica because I dont to step on anyone's toes? Well cyber toes.

Sorry, I was talking to Catholica

[chestertonrules]

Words have precise meanings, and the words of all the Popes before 1965 and at least two Popes afterword clearly said "No salvation outside the Church."  The web site/article you referred me to is an exercise in how words mean something other than what they say, and in my opinion is nothing more than damage control by those who came after all the Popes who said otherwise.

The website I referred you to is a Catholic website explaining what it ACTUALLY means.  It was Catholics who use this phrase and only Catholics can interpret what it truely means when translated from the Latin to the English language. Now, let's take a closer look at that statement that you posted of the Pope.  

Only in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

Below is a weblink of the ENTIRE SPEECH from Pope John Paul I, from which this one sentence was taken out.  As you can see, the Pope was quoting from St. Augustine and interpreted what St. Augustine was saying.  I provided the weblink below so you can read the entire speech yourself.  

According to the words of St Augustine, an image dear to the ancient Fathers of the
Church, the ship of the Church must not fear, because it is guided by Christ and by
his Vicar: "Although the ship is tossed about, it is still a ship. It carries the disciples
and it receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would
immediately perish" (Sermon 75,3; PL 38,475). Only in the Church is salvation:
without it one perishes!

http://www.lumenchristischool.org/files/PROGRAMMEOFPOPEJOHNPAULI.pdf

OKAY....so now, why do you think they left out the part in the speech where the Pope was quoting St. Augustine who said "Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would immediately perish?"  The ship that St. Augustine was referring to that carried the disciples was the Church.  NOW, why do you think they left out that part?  Simple.  They left it out on purpose because they did not want YOU to find out that the Pope was referring to a quote of St. Augustine.  If you had just read his entire speech instead of taking one sentence out from it, then you would have understood the whole message.   

Now that we understand what Pope John Paul I & II really meant, maybe you can explain what all the other Popes meant who said the same thing in more clearer words before 1965?

For example? 

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590)
"Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church." (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604)
"Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved." (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216)
"Indeed, there is but one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215; Denz. 151)

"With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)

Pope Boniface VIII in his Bull Unam Sanctam issued in 1302:
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Denz. 469) [note: This definition (de fide definita) seems unanswerable, but the liberals boldly claim that this is not a definition intended for the universal Church, but only a pronouncement meant to deal with the local problem of Philip the Fair. But when Philip demanded of Pope Clement V, the first Avignon Pope, that he withdraw Unam Sanctam, Pope Clement did not do so, but issued the Brief Meruit February 1, 1306, which despite its extremely conciliatory tone, clearly states that Unam Sanctam contains a "definition":] "That is why we do not wish or intend that any prejudice be engendered for that king and kingdom by the definition and declaration of our predecessor Pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, which began by the words Unam Sanctam." (51 Corpus Juris Canonici, (Extravag. commun., lib. V, tit. VII, cap. 2) ed. Freiburg, Vol. II, p. 1300.)

Pope Leo X reaffirmed the teaching of Boniface VIII: (1512-1517)
"Where the necessity of salvation is concerned all the faithful of Christ must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as we are taught by Holy Scripture, the testimony of the holy fathers, and by that constitution of our predecessor of happy memory, Boniface VIII, which begins Unam Sanctam." (Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council (1512-1517) Conciliorum Oecumenicorum Decreta, Edidit Centro di Documentazione, Instituto per Science Religiose, Herder, Bologna, 1962, no. 40, pp. 619, 620.)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829)
"We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878)
"It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood." (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII: (A.D. 1878 - 1903)
"By the ministry of this Church so gloriously founded by Him, He willed to perpetuate the mission which He had Himself received from the Father; and on the one hand, having put within her all the means necessary for man's salvation, on the other hand, He formally enjoined upon men the duty of obeying His Church as Himself, and religiously taking her as a guide of their whole lives. "He that heareth you, heareth Me; he that despiseth you, despiseth me." (Luke 10:16) Therefore, it is from the Church alone that the law of Christ must be asked: and, consequently, if for man Christ is the way, the Church, too, is the way, the former of Himself and by His nature, the latter by delegation and communication of power. Consequently, all who wish to reach salvation outside the Church, are mistaken as to the way and are engaged in a vain effort." (Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical, Tametsi, November 1, 1900;

Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 647.)
"This is our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church; the strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate." (Pope Leo XIII, Allocution for the 25th anniversary of his election, February 20, 1903; Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 653.Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

"He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God." (Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope St. Pius X: A.D. 1903 - 1914)
"Strong in this faith, unshakably established on this Peter, We turn the eyes of Our soul both to the heavy obligations of this holy primacy and at the same time to the strength divinely imparted to Our heart. In peace We wait for those to be silent who are loudly proclaiming that the Catholic Church has had her day, that her teaching is hopelessly reactionary, that she will soon be reduced either to conformity with the data of science and a civilization without God, or to withdrawal from the society of men. And while We wait, it is Our duty to recall to everyone, great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation, to obtain peace, and even prosperity in our life here below. "That is why, to use the words of the Holy Pontiff, we say: "Make firm the progress of your souls, as you have begun to do, with the firmness of this rock: on it, as you know, Our Redeemer founded the Church throughout the world, so that sincere hearts, guiding their steps by her, would not stray on to the wrong road." (Pope St. Pius X, Encyclical, Jucunda sane, March 12, 1904, Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 668.)

Pope Pius XI:
"Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls? Alas their children left the home of their fathers, but it did not fall to the ground and perish for ever, for it was supported by God. Let them therefore return to their common Father, who, forgetting the insults previously heaped on the Apostolic See, will receive them in the most loving fashion. For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, 'the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?' Let them hear Lactantius crying out: 'The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this is the house of Faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind.'" (Pope Pius XI, Encyclical, Mortalium animos, January 6, 1928, The Papal Encyclicals, Claudia Carlen, I.H.M., McGrath Publishing Co., 1981, pp. 317, 318.)

Pope Pius XII: (A.D. 1939 - 1958)
"Nor against this may one argue that the primacy of jurisdiction established in the Church gives such a Mystical Body two heads. For Peter in virtue of his primacy is only Christ's Vicar; so that there is only one chief Head of this Body, namely Christ, Who never ceases Himself to guide the Church invisible, though at the same time He rules it visibly, through him who is His representative on earth, after His glorious Ascension into heaven this Church rested not on Him alone, but on Peter too, its visible foundation stone. That Christ and His Vicar constitute one only Head is the solemn teaching of Our predecessor of immortal memory Boniface VIII in the Apostolic Letter Unam Sanctam; and his successors have never ceased to repeat the same. "They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous errors who believe that they can accept Christ as the head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it." (Pope Pius XII, encyclical Mystici Corporis which appeared in 1943; The Papal Encyclicals 1939-1958, Claudia Carlen, I.H.M., McGrath Publishing Co., 1981, p. 45.)

"By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth." (Pope Pius XII, Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

"O Mary Mother of Mercy and Refuge of Sinners! We beseech thee to look with pitying eyes on poor heretics and schismatics. Do thou, who art the Seat of Wisdom, enlighten the minds wretchedly enfolded in the darkness of ignorance and sin, that they may clearly recognize the Holy, Catholic, Roman Church to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which neither sanctity nor salvation can be found. Call them to the unity of the one fold, granting them the grace to believe every truth of our holy faith and to submit themselves to the Supreme Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, that, thus being united with us by the sweet chains of charity, there may soon be but one fold under one and the same Shepherd; and may we all thus, O Glorious Virgin, exultantly sing forever: 'Rejoice, O Virgin Mary! Thou alone hast destroyed all heresies in the whole world!' Amen." (Pope Pius XII, The Raccolta, Benzinger Brothers, Boston, 1957, No. 626.)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846):
"It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved." (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922):
"Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope John XXIII:
"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII, homily to the Bishops assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, Boston, St. Paul Editions, 1962, par. 1556.)

"And you, venerable brothers, will not fail, in your teaching, to recall to the flocks entrusted to you these grand and salutary truths; we cannot render to God the devotion that is due Him and that is pleasing to Him nor is it possible to be united to Him except through Jesus Christ; and it is not possible to be united to Jesus Christ except in the Church and through the Church, His Mystical Body, and, finally, it is not possible to belong to the Church except through the bishops, successors of the Apostles, united to the Supreme Pastor, the successor of Peter." (Pope John XXIII, Address on the creation of three new dioceses on Taiwan, L'Osseratore Romano, June 29, 1961.)

According to Catholic doctrine, who is a member of the Church?

[John 10:10]

According to Catholic doctrine, who is a member of the Church?

To read the history of the RCC and not understand or recognise that for most of her existence the RCC shut the doors of God's salvation that's in the Lord Jesus Christ to all who did not adhere to the teachings of the RCC, proclaiming herself as the Church, the only instrument of God's salvation on earth, is to live in denial.

Only in recent years has the RCC stated that "separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church

[LightHammer]

Brother John,

I really think you need to take back and examine yourself. The Church has NEVER taught that submission to itself was necessary for salvation after the Reformation. It is as simple as that. There is no evidence or any official proclamation to back up what you say.

You have no credible facts or validation.

[chestertonrules]

According to Catholic doctrine, who is a member of the Church?

To read the history of the RCC and not understand or recognise that for most of her existence the RCC shut the doors of God's salvation that's in the Lord Jesus Christ to all who did not adhere to the teachings of the RCC, proclaiming herself as the Church, the only instrument of God's salvation on earth, is to live in denial.

Only in recent years has the RCC stated that "separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church

[mclees8]

According to Catholic doctrine, who is a member of the Church?

To read the history of the RCC and not understand or recognise that for most of her existence the RCC shut the doors of God's salvation that's in the Lord Jesus Christ to all who did not adhere to the teachings of the RCC, proclaiming herself as the Church, the only instrument of God's salvation on earth, is to live in denial.

Only in recent years has the RCC stated that "separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church

[LightHammer]

What do you mean?

[mclees8]

What do you mean?

It means the word catholic when it was first used was just a word Ignatius  chose to use that meant univeral church. He was speaking to all believers of his day and the Church at Rome was just the church at Rome. There was no papacy that ruled over all the churches that were established under other bishops. The word Catholic actually pertains to all believers. which includes all who are not of the RCC. How ever the word catholic has been made synonymous  only to the RCC. This means today when the word catholic is used it only refers to those of the RCC. Thus a separation has been instilled in the minds of believers saying only  those of the RCC are Catholic thus are of a better fullness of grace.

All believers Catholic or protestant have the same fullness of Grace given by God.

[LightHammer]

I'm not sure how to respond to that. You are right nothing was officiated during the time of St. Ignatius. And if he was here I bet he would he hold some disappointment.

In that regard I am positive that Moses and Abraham would have been highly disappointed in the Pharisees of Jesus time. However did that make the system of Judaism null and void because of the corruption men let slip in? I don't think so. Only the sacrifice of Christ put a rest to the Old Covenant and the authorative system of the old Jews.

The same could possibly be said of the Church, Orthodox, RCC and Coptic. 

[John 10:10]

Brother John,

I really think you need to take back and examine yourself. The Church has NEVER taught that submission to itself was necessary for salvation after the Reformation. It is as simple as that. There is no evidence or any official proclamation to back up what you say.

You have no credible facts or validation.    

My exact words were,

To read the history of the RCC and not understand or recognise that for most of her existence the RCC shut the doors of God's salvation that's in the Lord Jesus Christ to all who did not adhere to the teachings of the RCC, proclaiming herself as the Church, the only instrument of God's salvation on earth, is to live in denial.

Only in recent years has the RCC stated that "separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church

[John 10:10]

According to Catholic doctrine, who is a member of the Church?

To read the history of the RCC and not understand or recognise that for most of her existence the RCC shut the doors of God's salvation that's in the Lord Jesus Christ to all who did not adhere to the teachings of the RCC, proclaiming herself as the Church, the only instrument of God's salvation on earth, is to live in denial.

Only in recent years has the RCC stated that "separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church

[chestertonrules]

For Christians throughout history, to be Christian in God's eyes was and still is entering into God's salvation that's in the Lord Jesus Christ.

For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."  (Rom 10:11)

If you believe in Jesus, you should obey all his commandments.

Jesus told you to listen to the Church.

Do you?

[mclees8]

For Christians throughout history, to be Christian in God's eyes was and still is entering into God's salvation that's in the Lord Jesus Christ.

For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."  (Rom 10:11)

If you believe in Jesus, you should obey all his commandments.

Jesus told you to listen to the Church.

Do you?

I can't really speak for John 10 10 but i agree with him that all who call upon the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved. Yes we should obey his commandments and hear who he has sent. He sent us the apostles and their teaching we have and obey. If we obey them then you are listening to the church.

Jesus said be as lambs but wise as serpents. This means not all who claim to be sent are sent. Obey all the Lord taught and believe only those whom you know he sent. Those who just put blind faith in men may be very foolish. Obey the pope when he teaches about faith and morals and godly living. But after that I would be very careful

[chestertonrules]

Those who just put blind faith in men may be very foolish. Obey the pope when he teaches about faith and morals and godly living. But after that I would be very careful

My acceptance of the Catholic Church as the fullness of Truth granted by Jesus and the Holy Spirit has NOTHING to do with blind faith.

It takes years of study and prayer to overcome biases against the Catholic Church.

It is a long, difficult road to accept the Truth.

To quote John Henry Newman:  "To go deep into history is to cease being protestant."

[LightHammer]

Mclees has come far. I feel like we are exactly the same now.

[mclees8]

Mclees has come far. I feel like we are exactly the same now.

Im not sure what you mean, but thanks

God bless

[mclees8]

Those who just put blind faith in men may be very foolish. Obey the pope when he teaches about faith and morals and godly living. But after that I would be very careful

My acceptance of the Catholic Church as the fullness of Truth granted by Jesus and the Holy Spirit has NOTHING to do with blind faith.

It takes years of study and prayer to overcome biases against the Catholic Church.

It is a long, difficult road to accept the Truth.

To quote John Henry Newman:  "To go deep into history is to cease being protestant."

This is not about bias. This is about being wise in Christ. You put a lot of stock in historical facts and evidences. But those things will never make the church nor will it paint a true picture. While history does have its merits. but truth savation, and power in the holy Ghost come the Jesus Christ

What make the church the church is a faith founded in Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

The apostles may have been a leadership but that was not there focus. The gospel of salvation through Christ in the Spirit was their focus . This should be the focus of the church. Not being blinded by carnal things like rank and authority. I am sure that meant little to the apostles. 

Flesh puts faith in the flesh but those who are of the spirit put more faith in the Spirit. It is the Spirit that guides us into all truth.

God bless

[John 10:10]

For Christians throughout history, to be Christian in God's eyes was and still is entering into God's salvation that's in the Lord Jesus Christ.

For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."  (Rom 10:11)

If you believe in Jesus, you should obey all his commandments.

Jesus told you to listen to the Church.

Do you?

My Jesus told me to listen to Him,

John 10:27-28

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish ; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

[LightHammer]

Yes but what is that Voice telling you? What is the new found Instinct of Christ leading you towards?

In the time of the Apostles we believed that the Voice of God exclusively gave the Truth to the Apostles and their chosen and to us the Voice of God via the Holy Ghost gave us the ability to recognize the Truth when we heard it.

I know most protestants don't agree with the what the Apostles taught and did unless they recorded it in Sacred Scripture, so why don't you tell me what you believe the Voice of God gives to you. 

[John 10:10]

Yes but what is that Voice telling you? What is the new found Instinct of Christ leading you towards?

In the time of the Apostles we believed that the Voice of God exclusively gave the Truth to the Apostles and their chosen and to us the Voice of God via the Holy Ghost gave us the ability to recognize the Truth when we heard it.

I know most protestants don't agree with the what the Apostles taught and did unless they recorded it in Sacred Scripture, so why don't you tell me what you believe the Voice of God gives to you. 

I asked you to read Jeanne Guyon's writings, which the RCC imprisoned her for, and you will find out what Christ led her to and is leading me towards.

Yes, Christ gave Himself to His Apostles for 3-1/2 years, imparting His life and message to them to carry on His word and work after He left.  After He was exalted to the right hand of God the Father as Lord within the Godhead, Jesus poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost on ALL flesh that receive Him as Lord.

Thankfully, God gave us HIS WORD AS THE TRUTH to live by, which the RCC has perverted to say many things that are not in agreement with His Word.  These are the truths I live by, and are the truths that the Holy Spirit takes and discloses to ALL His children that have an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches (Rev 2:7). 

I have explained many times what I believe Jesus is telling me through His Word.  How does re-hashing these things over and over again get us anywhere?

[Catholica]

Yes but what is that Voice telling you? What is the new found Instinct of Christ leading you towards?

In the time of the Apostles we believed that the Voice of God exclusively gave the Truth to the Apostles and their chosen and to us the Voice of God via the Holy Ghost gave us the ability to recognize the Truth when we heard it.

I know most protestants don't agree with the what the Apostles taught and did unless they recorded it in Sacred Scripture, so why don't you tell me what you believe the Voice of God gives to you. 

I asked you to read Jeanne Guyon's writings, which the RCC imprisoned her for, and you will find out what Christ led her to and is leading me towards.

Yes, Christ gave Himself to His Apostles for 3-1/2 years, imparting His life and message to them to carry on His word and work after He left.  After He was exalted to the right hand of God the Father as Lord within the Godhead, Jesus poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost on ALL flesh that receive Him as Lord.

Thankfully, God gave us HIS WORD AS THE TRUTH to live by, which the RCC has perverted to say many things that are not in agreement with His Word.  These are the truths I live by, and are the truths that the Holy Spirit takes and discloses to ALL His children that have an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches (Rev 2:7). 

I have explained many times what I believe Jesus is telling me through His Word.  How does re-hashing these things over and over again get us anywhere?

John 10:10, do you believe that people have to "accept Jesus" to be saved?

[LightHammer]

I'm sorry I wasn't aware that I had to read that book before we could have any further dialogue. I thought it was just concerning that specific private debate we were having but I guess I should make a run to the library.

[chestertonrules]

John 10:27-28

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish ; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

How do we hear the voice of Jesus?

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

[mclees8]

John 10:27-28

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish ; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

How do we hear the voice of Jesus?

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

It is as Jesus said do as they say but do not do as they do. Catholics are quick to use these to justify the RCC. What disturbs me the most is I bet you have these verses stored in you computer ready to bring up every time you want to express that  hierarchical authority of the RCC as if that was all there was to hearing Christ. It is a highly hammered and over emphasized dogmatic thing.  It's the only thrust Catholic's have. You think this is all the church consists of and the only way  one can hear Jesus. If this is all you can see then I feel sorry for.

There is no higher authority then Christ and the Holy Spirit. I can not count he ways i have heard Jesus speak to me, and i Know he walks with me everyday,  and all who seek him with a true heart and undying love will not be disappointed.

Your relationship is carnal and mine is in the spirit. and not just me but all who are of the spirit.

God bless

God bless