Papacy - right or wrong?

[Visionary]

The church teaches us Selene?

The scriptures given you have showed you that your church is not teaching the sound doctrines of Jesus Christ.

So as I have been showing you all along... John 6:43-45

It remains then that you cannot give us any scripture that to become a priest and remain a priest and serve God in church you must be single and remain single and you cannot give us a scripture that to become a priest you must give up all things.
Why? Because neither of those things are a requirement of God nor will you find it anywhere in scripture.
Hebrews 1:1,2...IT IS GOD WHO CALLS US BY HIS OWN GOODNESS AND GRACE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST!!!
John 10:3-5

Furthermore as you were told already but did not understand...

WE HAVE A PRIEST THAT IS IN HEAVEN!!!

So why on earth would a child of God, born of God seek a priests counsel on earth? DONT YOU KNOW...
1Corinthians 3:16 1John 2:26,27 Unless you have not believed and are only following rules taught by men?

I am the Good Shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me! John 10:14

So as I counselled you before Selene...Put away your church dogma that has no foundation in Gods Word and SEEK HIS FACE!

Acts 7:40 Where is Jesus Selene? That you made a man - the POPE - THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - your idol?

[Selene]

The church teaches us Selene?

The scriptures given you have showed you that your church is not teaching the sound doctrines of Jesus Christ.

So as I have been showing you all along... John 6:43-45

It remains then that you cannot give us any scripture that to become a priest and remain a priest and serve God in church you must be single and remain single and you cannot give us a scripture that to become a priest you must give up all things.
Why? Because neither of those things are a requirement of God nor will you find it anywhere in scripture.
Hebrews 1:1,2...IT IS GOD WHO CALLS US BY HIS OWN GOODNESS AND GRACE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST!!!
John 10:3-5

Furthermore as you were told already but did not understand...

WE HAVE A PRIEST THAT IS IN HEAVEN!!!

So why on earth would a child of God, born of God seek a priests counsel on earth? DONT YOU KNOW...
1Corinthians 3:16 1John 2:26,27 Unless you have not believed and are only following rules taught by men?

I am the Good Shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me! John 10:14

So as I counselled you before Selene...Put away your church dogma that has no foundation in Gods Word and SEEK HIS FACE!

Acts 7:40 Where is Jesus Selene? That you made a man - the POPE - THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - your idol?

And who do you think the Apostles were?  Were they not God's chosen ones?  His priests?  The Apostles were Christ's priests who ruled over the Church.  Our priests are chosen just as the Apostles were.   We are His chosen.  We are His sheep because He chose us.   

My brother, I did give you scripture showing you that to be a follower of Christ is to give all things just as the Apostles did.  The Apostles were priests.....remember.....Christ chose 12 Apostles.  You do remember that, don't you.  And these followers gave up everything to follow Christ just as it says in Scripture, and they ruled over God's Church just as Scripture says.   

And what do you do?  You put down the Catholic Church simply because a Catholic priest chose to give up having a wife and family to be in union with God?  You are putting down the Catholic Church for this?  In the first place, we're not even asking you to be a Catholic priest.  My priest chose to be a Catholic priest and he understood that he was to serve God and be in union with God rather than with a woman.  So, what's wrong with that choice?  It was his choice.  As for you, if you want to be in union with a woman, who is stopping you?   

[Visionary]

Selene for the third and last time...

THERE IS ONLY ONE PRIEST>>>HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST!!!

How is it then that Jesus speaks to the Catholic church...Matthew 23:7-15 ...Father...Rabbi/Priest...Teacher...

How is it that you didn't hear what God says?

You said, if a catholic priest marries he must leave the church...if thats what you believe Selene then know this...

John 16:2,3 They will do such things, Jesus says, because they have not known the Father or me.

THANK GOD THE CHURCH IS CHOSEN BY GOD AND NOT MEN...

[Selene]

Selene for the third and last time...

THERE IS ONLY ONE PRIEST>>>HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST!!!

Visionary, you are confusing yourself.  First you said this below:  

From Visionary:  Selene I am going to tell you something you will not hear in a catholic church.

This is the truth!  1Peter 2:9,10 YOU ARE a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that YOU may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once YOU WERE NOT a people, but now YOU ARE the people of God. Once YOU HAD NOT received mercy, but now YOU HAVE received mercy.

Who makes YOU a priest Selene? IT IS NOT the Catholic church! It is God! Do we as priests seek the approval of men or God?
Who qualifies you to be a priest? Colossians 1:12-14 How does God qualify you to be a priest? Ephesians 1:13,14


Here, you are saying that we are a priest and that I am also a priest.  Now, suddenly, you are saying that there is only one priest?  

Visonary, we believe that there is only one high priest.... Jesus Christ.  And we know that Christ made us a royal priesthood and a holy nation.  St. Peter said that we are a royal priesthood and a holy nation.  We are an entire priesthood and yes, we are a nation.  Of all the Christian denomination, only the Catholic Church became a soverign nation.  The Catholic Church is a mirror image of who Christ is simply because we are His Body.  Christ is a priest.  His Church is a priest.  Christ is a prophet (See Matthew 21:11).  His Church is also a prophet in that she goes out to the world proclaiming God's word.  Christ is a King.  His Church is also a King in that she is a soverign nation among leaders.  Christ came from the richness of Heaven to this world in the flesh living in poverty.  His Church was built by the Divine God in this world, imitating the richness of the Spiritual and Heavenly Church from which Christ came.

As I keep telling you over and over, we do not forbid marriage.  A priest can marry if he wants.  No one is stopping him, but yes, he will leave the priesthood should he decide to marry a woman.  And no one in the Catholic Church is forcing anyone to give up marriage to become a priest.  A man who decides to become a Catholic priest already knows that he is seeking to be one and in union with God and not with a woman.  That is not a secret.

We are the Church created by God and whose Founder and Head is Christ.  Although we live in this world, the Church imitates the world that Christ came from.  In Heaven, we are to be one and united with God, not with wives and husbands. 

Luke 20:34-35  And Jesus said to them: The children of THIS WORLD  marry, and are given in marriage: [35] But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives.     

[Visionary]

Selene...

Don't you know your sovereign nation you call Roman Catholic Church is the Prostitute in the book of Revelation 17?

So if I was you Selene uttering the things you have here not found in scripture I would not be so proud of the Roman Catholic Church.

Perhaps you should read up on the history of your POPE... many of them have been false prophets introducing destructive heresies such as this one you claim comes from God...

If a man marries he cannot be a priest ... he must leave the church.

THAT IS A LIE!!!!

And "priesthood" is like "kingdom" in context you did not understand---UNDER CHRIST AUTHORITY!

[Selene]

Selene...

Don't you know your sovereign nation you call Roman Catholic Church is the Prostitute in the book of Revelation 17?

So if I was you Selene uttering the things you have here not found in scripture I would not be so proud of the Roman Catholic Church.

Perhaps you should read up on the history of your POPE... many of them have been false prophets introducing destructive heresies such as this one you claim comes from God...

If a man marries he cannot be a priest ... he must leave the church.

THAT IS A LIE!!!!

And "priesthood" is like "kingdom" in context you did not understand---UNDER CHRIST AUTHORITY!

Lighthammer, the Babylon Prostitute that St. John was referring to was the Roman Empire.  At that time, Vatican City was not a soverign nation.  It was still the Church at Babylon as St. Peter called it.  Therefore, the Prostitute mentioned in Revelations was the Roman Emperor Nero.   St. John predicted that the Roman Empire would fall, and it did.  

Also, I never said, that when a priest marries, he must leave the Church.  I said he must leave the priesthood....as in he cannot serve at the altar presiding at the Eucharist.  The former priest is still part of the Church.

[LightHammer]

Selene...

Don't you know your sovereign nation you call Roman Catholic Church is the Prostitute in the book of Revelation 17?

So if I was you Selene uttering the things you have here not found in scripture I would not be so proud of the Roman Catholic Church.

Perhaps you should read up on the history of your POPE... many of them have been false prophets introducing destructive heresies such as this one you claim comes from God...

If a man marries he cannot be a priest ... he must leave the church.

THAT IS A LIE!!!!

And "priesthood" is like "kingdom" in context you did not understand---UNDER CHRIST AUTHORITY!

Lighthammer, the Babylon Prostitute that St. John was referring to was the Roman Empire.  At that time, Vatican City was not a soverign nation.  It was still the Church at Babylon as St. Peter called it.  Therefore, the Prostitute mentioned in Revelations was the Roman Emperor Nero.   St. John predicted that the Roman Empire would fall, and it did.  

Also, I never said, that when a priest marries, he must leave the Church.  I said he must leave the priesthood....as in he cannot serve at the altar presiding at the Eucharist.  The former priest is still part of the Church.

Whoa whoa whoa! Where did LighThammer's name come into play in this dialogue? I haven't posted in this thread every since Visionry went rampant. That was Visionary's reply not mine.

[Visionary]

God bless lighthammer. Dont let it trouble you. Selene ignored the scripture given her showing Zechariah was high priest at the time and married and served at the altar in the most holy place. God does not change but the Catholic church tries to change God.

[Visionary]

Luke 1 Zechariah your wife Elizabeth will bear child and you are to name him John. Zechariah received this promise while serving at the altar in the Holy of Holies by which he entered with blood. Only the high priest was permitted to do this according to the law.

[chestertonrules]

God bless lighthammer. Dont let it trouble you. Selene ignored the scripture given her showing Zechariah was high priest at the time and married and served at the altar in the most holy place. God does not change but the Catholic church tries to change God.

Do you deny the existence of the New Covenant?

[Catholica]

Here is something interesting.  

In the time of Jesus, there were three main sects of Judaism: the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Essenes.  John the Baptist was an Essene.  The Essenes were strictly celibate and did not get married.

Which of the three sects does Jesus criticize the least?  Did Jesus criticize John the Baptist for being celibate, for not getting married?  Should we be critical of Jesus for being celibate, for never getting married?

Then how dare we be critical of priests who are celibate and don't get married?  Truly.

[LightHammer]

God bless lighthammer. Dont let it trouble you. Selene ignored the scripture given her showing Zechariah was high priest at the time and married and served at the altar in the most holy place. God does not change but the Catholic church tries to change God.

I do not agree with that. The doctrine of the Catholic Church has been ironclad for 2,000 years. Doctrines that came after the declaration of the Nicene Creed were on separate issues and in no way contradict one another. You don't have to be Catholic to see this. You need only to look at the Truth of ALL matters through unbiased eyes.

I fear you view the oldest and strongest denomination of our faith as your enemy; the very incarnation of evil itself. I fear that no matter how hard even I, a fellow protestant of Rome, tries to show you that Catholic Church isn't just some establishment of men and flaws but a pillar of God's Light you will always hold such turmoil in your heart. And I feel sorry for you. Your ideology only serves as a means to forsake 1.2 billion brothers and sisters of the Cross. I will not lead a lifestyle or thought process that separates me so far from my family members.

[Visionary]

What does that mean? Even the Pope himself can have a wife and will be found innocent in Gods eyes! Since when was it ever a sin to marry and have a believing wife?

[Visionary]

You are all ignoring the issue at hand!!! Since when did God ever say if you get married you cannot be a priest you cannot serve me? SHOW US! You cannot because God never said that! NEVER!

[chestertonrules]

What does that mean? Even the Pope himself can have a wife and will be found innocent in Gods eyes! Since when was it ever a sin to marry and have a believing wife?

The Celibate priesthood is a discipline, not a dogma.  It is not a matter of sin.

The Church believes it is better for priests to remain unmarried, but there are married priests in the Catholic Church.

The Church follows the advice of Jesus and Paul in this regard:

Matt 19:12
For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."


1 Cor 7
32I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

36If anyone thinks he is acting improperly toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if she is getting along in years and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married. 37But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing. 38So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does even better.

[Visionary]

Now if I was you it would be beneficial to heed Jesus warning to love him more than your church traditions. Matthew 23

[Visionary]

Chester. I am not married and never have been but you are not listening! Since when did God ever say you cannot be a priest if you are married or do marry? Since when did God say you cannot serve me if you are married or do marry? NEVER!!!

[LightHammer]

Here is something interesting.  

In the time of Jesus, there were three main sects of Judaism: the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Essenes.  John the Baptist was an Essene.  The Essenes were strictly celibate and did not get married.

Which of the three sects does Jesus criticize the least?  Did Jesus criticize John the Baptist for being celibate, for not getting married?  Should we be critical of Jesus for being celibate, for never getting married?

Then how dare we be critical of priests who are celibate and don't get married?  Truly.

In the defense of my oppossition, I have to wonder was the discipline of celibacy an official standard or more like an unspoken law or tradition like a lot of Jewish foklore? I'm sure very few Christians today even know the name Mentatron although he is indeed the most powerful heavenly being( not including God of course) ever recorded.  

I think the main problem in today's society when it comes to restricting the marriage of clergy is the unfortunate sexual scandals of not just Catholic priest but protestant leaders as well. It seems like, atleast to the common people, that if Catholic clergy were allowed to marry that the numbers of sexual offenses would indeed subside.

[chestertonrules]

Chester. I am not married and never have been but you are not listening! Since when did God ever say you cannot be a priest if you are married or do marry? Since when did God say you cannot serve me if you are married or do marry? NEVER!!!

You're the one not listening.

There are married Catholic priests, but they are exceptions.

Both Jesus and Paul said it is better for those serving the Kingdom to remain unmarried.

Do you deny this?

Why shouldn't the Church advocate what is better according to scripture?

[LightHammer]

Chester. I am not married and never have been but you are not listening! Since when did God ever say you cannot be a priest if you are married or do marry? Since when did God say you cannot serve me if you are married or do marry? NEVER!!!

And you're not understanding friend. The Catholic Church doesn't say it's sinful at all. The Catholic Church is merely saying that to better serve God it mandates it's clergy to subscribe to the discipline of celibacy. If the Catholic Church considered it sinful for an ordained member of the Church to marry then I would be completely against all things Catholic but that just isn't the case.

Is just like wearing the uniform of the Church. The Catholic Church mandates that it's clergy wear a certain uniform to set them apart from the general congregation just as it mandates that they commit themselves to a higher standard to dawn the posistion of leadership.

[Visionary]

So lets do a reality check? You have all said basically the same thing. The Catholic church forbids its priests to marry with the threat to step down and even leave the church. According to the scriptures those who forbid people to marry follow a deceiving Spirit. So then who appoints a priest into office? God or man?

[Visionary]

Thanks for that timely response lighthammer... Mandates... Subjects you again to slavery to law ... Yes! We all understand. As if righteousness can be obtained by law!

[chestertonrules]

So lets do a reality check? You have all said basically the same thing. The Catholic church forbids its priests to marry with the threat to step down and even leave the church. According to the scriptures those who forbid people to marry follow a deceiving Spirit. So then who appoints a priest into office? God or man?

Do you deny that Jesus and Paul said that is better for those serving the Kingdom not to marry?

Yes or No?


Does it make sense that the Church Jesus started would prefer unmarried priests given that this was preferred by Jesus and Paul?

Yes or No?

[chestertonrules]

Thanks for that timely response lighthammer... Mandates... Subjects you again to slavery to law ... Yes! We all understand. As if righteousness can be obtained by law!

There is a difference between obedience to Jesus and following the Jewish Law.

Do you agree?

[LightHammer]

So lets do a reality check? You have all said basically the same thing. The Catholic church forbids its priests to marry with the threat to step down and even leave the church. According to the scriptures those who forbid people to marry follow a deceiving Spirit. So then who appoints a priest into office? God or man?

Not exactly. If the priest wants to marry he can do so he just can't be a priest. He can still be a member of the Church in good standing in everything. There is no threat or reprimand for deciding you want to get married and resining from the ministry.

[John 10:10]

So lets do a reality check? You have all said basically the same thing. The Catholic church forbids its priests to marry with the threat to step down and even leave the church. According to the scriptures those who forbid people to marry follow a deceiving Spirit. So then who appoints a priest into office? God or man?

Do you deny that Jesus and Paul said that is better for those serving the Kingdom not to marry?

Yes or No?


Does it make sense that the Church Jesus started would prefer unmarried priests given that this was preferred by Jesus and Paul?

Yes or No? 

Paul wrote this concerning marriage:

1 Cor 7:7 Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.
8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.
9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

1 Tim 3:1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

Jesus said this concerning marraige:

Matt 19:12 "For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

Conclusion:

Paul never said it was wrong for an overseer to marry and then continue serving as an overseer, priest or pastor in the church.

Jesus never said it was wrong for priests to marry and continue serving as priests.  God can and does call one to celebacy "for the sake of the kingdom."  Note that Jesus said "eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."  The problem comes when the church imposes a condition of celebacy upon a priest that God has not called them to.

[Visionary]

I see you all still think mans rules supercede Gods rule. And due to the silence as we all know already the Pope is chosen by men by lot and not necessarily by God. So the one who asked me to answer his yes or no question you were given the answer already but were blinded by your traditions and refused to love the truth. Luke 1 Just one of countless married priests appointed by God to serve him.

[LightHammer]

I see you all still think mans rules supercede Gods rule. And due to the silence as we all know already the Pope is chosen by men by lot and not necessarily by God. So the one who asked me to answer his yes or no question you were given the answer already but were blinded by your traditions and refused to love the truth. Luke 1 Just one of countless married priests appointed by God to serve him.

Hey could you tell me how God leads the Church today?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Here is something interesting. 

In the time of Jesus, there were three main sects of Judaism: the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Essenes.  John the Baptist was an Essene.  The Essenes were strictly celibate and did not get married.

Which of the three sects does Jesus criticize the least?  Did Jesus criticize John the Baptist for being celibate, for not getting married?  Should we be critical of Jesus for being celibate, for never getting married?

Then how dare we be critical of priests who are celibate and don't get married?  Truly.

John was not an Essene.

He was a Baptist (not to be confused with the modern group of the same name), which was not a major sect. 

They were split in two groups - hemerobaptists who preached daily ablutions and repentance, and... I forget the technical name of the other group, but they preached a "once-for-all" baptism.  John belongs to the latter group, judging by what is written in the book.

Jarrod

[Selene]

So lets do a reality check? You have all said basically the same thing. The Catholic church forbids its priests to marry with the threat to step down and even leave the church. According to the scriptures those who forbid people to marry follow a deceiving Spirit. So then who appoints a priest into office? God or man?

Where in my post did I say that a priest is threaten to step down and leave the Catholic Church if he decides to marry?  I said a person who wants to become a Catholic priest already understands that he is to be one and in union with God and not with a woman.  What part in there did you not understand?

[Visionary]

You can slam your head against the wall as much as you want folks.

Hebrews 5:1-5

But you cannot force a priest God has placed on his throne from taking a bride for himself!!!!



Revelation 19:7

Its funny you Catholics call yourself the church but Jesus has his bride!

[Selene]

You can slam your head against the wall as much as you want folks.

Hebrews 5:1-5

But you cannot force a priest God has placed on his throne from taking a bride for himself!!!!

Have you been listening to what I have been saying?  No one is forcing the priest not to marry.  If he finds a woman that he really wants to marry, he can marry.  But he is going to be leaving the priesthood.  Note, I said leaving the priesthood.....not the Church.

Its funny you Catholics call yourself the church but Jesus has his bride!

Of course, Jesus has His bride...the Church.  We are called to be one and united with God.  Who else should we be one and united with?  This is what Jesus says: 

Luke 20:34-35  And Jesus said to them: The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: [35] But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives.

And you have absolutely nothing to say about this. 

[Visionary]

Selene. OH PLEASE!!! How can you think Jesus cannot be a priest when he takes his bride unto himself on the last day?

Sorry to say but I dont expect to see you at the banquet having not dressed! Matthew 22:1-14

[Selene]

Selene. OH PLEASE!!! How can you think Jesus cannot be a priest when he takes his bride unto himself on the last day?

Sorry to say but I dont expect to see you at the banquet having not dressed! Matthew 22:1-14

Like I said, we have been called to something much better.  That is to be one and united with Christ.  Again, I asked you a question and this is the response I ge?.  This time, the question I asked you in this thread is "Who else should we be one and united with?"  If you believe that one should not be one and united with God, then who should one be united with?   Answer the question.  

And after you answer my question, I would like you to answer Chesteronrule's questions.  These are the questions that he asked you, which you avoided answering: 

From Chesteronrules to Visionary: 

Do you deny that Jesus and Paul said that is better for those serving the Kingdom not to marry?

Yes or No?


Does it make sense that the Church Jesus started would prefer unmarried priests given that this was preferred by Jesus and Paul?

Yes or No?

[Visionary]

Don't take me for a fool Selene. I am a simple man but I know when people try to change the subject at hand to avoid acknowledging the truth by assaulting with questions.

Your circus act does not amuse anyone.