Papacy - right or wrong?

[Debrah]

what sin this "papacy" is in, the Lord is mad, the Lord is sad.  The least of these will be first.  Man places himself in authority, above His other children.

The humble will reap their harvest, repent great church of Satan, repent great church of pride, your sins are many, repent of your self righteousness, repent you Pharisees.

all Gods children are equal through Jesus Christ, through my son's blood and body.  Salvation does not come through the church, but my Son, His perfect sacrifice, there is no perfect church, perfect ritual, who can save a life from damnation...Only my Son.

  message from the Holy Spirit

[chestertonrules]

what sin this "papacy" is in, the Lord is mad, the Lord is sad.  The least of these will be first.  Man places himself in authority, above His other children.

The humble will reap their harvest, repent great church of Satan, repent great church of pride, your sins are many, repent of your self righteousness, repent you Pharisees.

all Gods children are equal through Jesus Christ, through my son's blood and body.  Salvation does not come through the church, but my Son, His perfect sacrifice, there is no perfect church, perfect ritual, who can save a life from damnation...Only my Son.

  message from the Holy Spirit

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."


Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

[John 10:10]

The Catholic Church has consistently fought to keep the bible from being distorted and mistranslated, true enough.

The Church has also consistently worked to spread the entire Word of God throughout the world.

You are posting biased and inaccurate opinion.

Again you fail to answer the question:  For what crime did John Huss and other reformers deserve to be killed or burned at the stake by the Catholic Church for proclaiming the truths of the completed Bible to the common man?

For hundreds of years after 1388, the Catholic Church continued to persecute, imprison and kill Christians who dared to take the Bible and teach/practice their beliefs apart from the Catholic Church, considering them heretics.

To ignore this truth of history is to live in denial.

Protestants too have had our share of pastors who were/are wolves in sheep clothing.

[mclees8]

what sin this "papacy" is in, the Lord is mad, the Lord is sad.  The least of these will be first.  Man places himself in authority, above His other children.

The humble will reap their harvest, repent great church of Satan, repent great church of pride, your sins are many, repent of your self righteousness, repent you Pharisees.

all Gods children are equal through Jesus Christ, through my son's blood and body.  Salvation does not come through the church, but my Son, His perfect sacrifice, there is no perfect church, perfect ritual, who can save a life from damnation...Only my Son.

  message from the Holy Spirit

Thank you Debra for hearing the Lord and speaking the Holy Spirit.
The is a true message.

Praise the Lord for truth.   Amen.

[mclees8]

what sin this "papacy" is in, the Lord is mad, the Lord is sad.  The least of these will be first.  Man places himself in authority, above His other children.

The humble will reap their harvest, repent great church of Satan, repent great church of pride, your sins are many, repent of your self righteousness, repent you Pharisees.

all Gods children are equal through Jesus Christ, through my son's blood and body.  Salvation does not come through the church, but my Son, His perfect sacrifice, there is no perfect church, perfect ritual, who can save a life from damnation...Only my Son.

  message from the Holy Spirit

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."


Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Yes this is true that He sent us the apostles and true they laid hands on others to carry on the work. It is true that we should obey all authority religiously and politically. Jesus said of the Pharisees do as they say but do not be as they are. Ultimately it is Christ whom we hear and obey but not all who say they are sent are sent. Jesus warned of the false teachers who would fool even the elect. What is deception but clever lie that poses as the truth. When the disciples were with Jesus at the configuration they wanted to build an alter to Moses and Elija When the Lord said of Jesus. This is my Son whom i am well pleased. Hear ye Him.

If a leader who is not truly led of the Holy spirit but is proclaiming authority then he is only one of authority that says he is authority. The pharisees sat in a sat of authority but they were not sent, nor was he pleased with them. A lot is done in the name of authority but not all authority is truly the Lords authority. We have the gospels and the Epistles. they are a solid mearsure of truth. and all men will be judged by them. The word of God will be our indictment for the good and the Evil.

God bless

[chestertonrules]

Again you fail to answer the question:  For what crime did John Huss and other reformers deserve to be killed or burned at the stake by the Catholic Church for proclaiming the truths of the completed Bible to the common man?

For hundreds of years after 1388, the Catholic Church continued to persecute, imprison and kill Christians who dared to take the Bible and teach/practice their beliefs apart from the Catholic Church, considering them heretics.

To ignore this truth of history is to live in denial.

Protestants too have had our share of pastors who were/are wolves in sheep clothing.

It was not teaching the bible that the Church condemned, it was the teaching of heresy.

Huss was a heretic.  He leaned on his own understanding and led people astray.  He taught the doctrine of impanation, as did Wycliffe.

[John 10:10]

Again you fail to answer the question:  For what crime did John Huss and other reformers deserve to be killed or burned at the stake by the Catholic Church for proclaiming the truths of the completed Bible to the common man?

For hundreds of years after 1388, the Catholic Church continued to persecute, imprison and kill Christians who dared to take the Bible and teach/practice their beliefs apart from the Catholic Church, considering them heretics.

To ignore this truth of history is to live in denial.

Protestants too have had our share of pastors who were/are wolves in sheep clothing.

It was teaching the bible that the Church condemned, it was the teaching of heresy.

Huss was a heretic.  He leaned on his own understanding and led people astray.  He taught the doctrine of impanation, as did Wycliffe.  

I must have missed something.  Most Protestants DO NOT believe in the doctrine of impanation (the doctrine that the body and blood of Christ are in the bread and wine after consecration), but the Papacy does! 

Now I get it.  Everyone that taught/teaches the Bible different than the Papacy is a heritic, and therefore worthy persecution, imprisonment, and even being burned at the stake. 

Since the Papacy only recently mofified its teaching that God's salvation was only thru the Catholic Church via Vatican II from 1962-1965, did the Papacy get it all wrong for all the years before then?

[LightHammer]

what sin this "papacy" is in, the Lord is mad, the Lord is sad.  The least of these will be first.  Man places himself in authority, above His other children.

The humble will reap their harvest, repent great church of Satan, repent great church of pride, your sins are many, repent of your self righteousness, repent you Pharisees.

all Gods children are equal through Jesus Christ, through my son's blood and body.  Salvation does not come through the church, but my Son, His perfect sacrifice, there is no perfect church, perfect ritual, who can save a life from damnation...Only my Son.

  message from the Holy Spirit

That is the is the essence of Protestantism. Every random joker showing up with a message they think is right and labeling it of the Holy Spirit.

what sin this "papacy" is in, the Lord is mad, the Lord is sad.  The least of these will be first.  Man places himself in authority, above His other children.

The humble will reap their harvest, repent great church of Satan, repent great church of pride, your sins are many, repent of your self righteousness, repent you Pharisees.

all Gods children are equal through Jesus Christ, through my son's blood and body.  Salvation does not come through the church, but my Son, His perfect sacrifice, there is no perfect church, perfect ritual, who can save a life from damnation...Only my Son.

  message from the Holy Spirit

Thank you Debra for hearing the Lord and speaking the Holy Spirit.
The is a true message.

Praise the Lord for truth.   Amen.

A message that rallies clueless believers who rather listen to it than obey God's established design for HIS Church.

[chestertonrules]

Now I get it.  Everyone that taught/teaches the Bible different than the Papacy is a heritic,

Exactly.

So, when you say that the Church was trying to stop the spread of scripture you are incorrect.

The Church was trying to stop the spread of heresy.

[John 10:10]

So what about the thousands that died at the hands of the protestant Salem Witchtrails?

Actually, only nineteen people were hanged, one person was pressed to death, and as many as thirteen people may have died in prison as a result of the Salem Witch Trials during the late 1600's.  Compared to those who were imprisoned and killed over the centuries for teaching/living God's Word apart from the RCC, this is but a small drop in a vast ocean of atrocities committed by those who sought to keep their churches pure.  Only after the 1776 revolution did true freedom of religion enter into the American way of life.

What about the Southern Baptist who declared it a divine revelation of God to uphold slavery?! My race was bound in shackles, beaten and whipped like wild animals and all the while your protestant church declared it God's design for the superior race.

Preserving one's power, way of life, and prosperity has led many groups of people, including the RCC, to justify all manner of evil practices to start and continue within their midst, ignoring the light and truth of Scripture.  This many Southerners and Northerners did in order to tame the new American continent, and to prosper therein.  Once evil of any kind enters into one's midst, it rarely is overcome without strife and even bloodshed.  Look at the drug wars going on at our Southern borders, and in our cities.  The Civil War cost 620,000 lives, 2/3 of which died of disease!   The only slavery the Bible condones is being a bond slave, which is where one voluntarily agrees to serve another person.  This is how we serve our Lord Jesus Christ, becoming His friend (John 15:15)

Don't you dare pretend evil men have not slipped into protestant churches and stained their history with the blood of innocents just as evil men have done to the Mother Church in an attempt to bring it down?!!!!

I never pretended for one moment that Protestant churches have not allowed evil within their midst.  The difference is this:  When the RCC did so through evil Popes, priests & bishops, it affected the entire RCC.  When individual Protestant churches do, it usually affects a single local church or denomination, not all Protestant churches everywhere!  Protestant churches are mostly autonomous.  This can be both a strength and a weakness, but Protestants trust in God's Word and the power of God's Spirit to make needed corrections, rather than a "Mother Church" telling everyone what to do and believe.

Men of God ey?! None of the protestant denominations, that were started by "the Paul's of this world" as you call it even teach the same requirements for salvation. So someone is spreading falsehoods and think putting the name of Christ on a billboard outside covers it up.

God's salvation is given as man repents of his sin, and then calls upon the name of the Lord to be saved (Acts 3:38-39, Rom 10:8-13).  This truth as revealed in God's Word can be defined in many different ways within Protestantism, some very good and some not so good.  But for most of its existence, the RCC considered God's salvation came only through the RCC.  Vatican II (1962-65) at least made this concession, "Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines." 

I'm thankful God's salvation came to me when I was a sinner who repented, not because of where I attended church.

[John 10:10]

Now I get it.  Everyone that taught/teaches the Bible different than the Papacy is a heritic,  

Exactly.

So, when you say that the Church was trying to stop the spread of scripture you are incorrect.

The Church was trying to stop the spread of heresy.

And this justifies all those who were killed in the name of the RCC because they dared to proclaim God's Word differently than the RCC!!!  

Are you sure you want to say this was OK for the RCC to do this to stop what the RCC considered heresy?

PS - I noticed you didn't copy my entire quote:  Now I get it.  Everyone that taught/teaches the Bible different than the Papacy is a heritic, and therefore worthy persecution, imprisonment, and even being burned at the stake. 

[chestertonrules]

And this justifies all those who were killed in the name of the RCC because they dared to proclaim God's Word differently than the RCC!!!  

Are you sure you want to say this was OK for the RCC to do this to stop what the RCC considered heresy?

I don't claim that this justifies violence, but I wanted to clarify the motivations.  The Church has always striven to keep the message of the gospel that was handed down by Jesus to the apostles.

The middle ages were a violent time, and Catholics were just as sinful as anyone else.

Both protestant and Catholics did terrible things to each other, and much of it was motivated by worldly desires rather than religious conviction.

If you knew more about what the Church was up against you wouldn't be so judgmental.  Catholics had been brutally attacked by the Roman empire, Muslims, Carthars, and other radical groups for centuries.

[LightHammer]

So what about the thousands that died at the hands of the protestant Salem Witchtrails?

Actually, only nineteen people were hanged, one person was pressed to death, and as many as thirteen people may have died in prison as a result of the Salem Witch Trials during the late 1600's.  Compared to those who were imprisoned and killed over the centuries for teaching/living God's Word apart from the RCC, this is but a small drop in a vast ocean of atrocities committed by those who sought to keep their churches pure.  Only after the 1776 revolution did true freedom of religion enter into the American way of life.

What about the Southern Baptist who declared it a divine revelation of God to uphold slavery?! My race was bound in shackles, beaten and whipped like wild animals and all the while your protestant church declared it God's design for the superior race.

Preserving one's power, way of life, and prosperity has led many groups of people, including the RCC, to justify all manner of evil practices to start and continue within their midst, ignoring the light and truth of Scripture.  This many Southerners and Northerners did in order to tame the new American continent, and to prosper therein.  Once evil of any kind enters into one's midst, it rarely is overcome without strife and even bloodshed.  Look at the drug wars going on at our Southern borders, and in our cities.  The Civil War cost 620,000 lives, 2/3 of which died of disease!   The only slavery the Bible condones is being a bond slave, which is where one voluntarily agrees to serve another person.  This is how we serve our Lord Jesus Christ, becoming His friend (John 15:15)

Don't you dare pretend evil men have not slipped into protestant churches and stained their history with the blood of innocents just as evil men have done to the Mother Church in an attempt to bring it down?!!!!

I never pretended for one moment that Protestant churches have not allowed evil within their midst.  The difference is this:  When the RCC did so through evil Popes, priests & bishops, it affected the entire RCC.  When individual Protestant churches do, it usually affects a single local church or denomination, not all Protestant churches everywhere!  Protestant churches are mostly autonomous.  This can be both a strength and a weakness, but Protestants trust in God's Word and the power of God's Spirit to make needed corrections, rather than a "Mother Church" telling everyone what to do and believe.

Men of God ey?! None of the protestant denominations, that were started by "the Paul's of this world" as you call it even teach the same requirements for salvation. So someone is spreading falsehoods and think putting the name of Christ on a billboard outside covers it up.

God's salvation is given as man repents of his sin, and then calls upon the name of the Lord to be saved (Acts 3:38-39, Rom 10:8-13).  This truth as revealed in God's Word can be defined in many different ways within Protestantism, some very good and some not so good.  But for most of its existence, the RCC considered God's salvation came only through the RCC.  Vatican II (1962-65) at least made this concession, "Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines." 

I'm thankful God's salvation came to me when I was a sinner who repented, not because of where I attended church.

Well I'm glad you acknwoledged the fact that sinful men have stained the faith on both sides and just the RCC. That would be very crude. Do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that the RCC is perfect it just bothers me how protestants try to use things like the Inquisition and other faults of the Church to disprove it as if protestant churches don't have the same blood on their history. My real favorite is to watch protestants try to dispute apostolic succession. I mean how much sense did the Apostles need to say, "Hey I'm a human which means I'm probably going to die one day. Oh darn it Christ told me to lead and teach the flock and if I die I can't do that. There are still so many secrets that God has to reveal and if I don't stay around who's going to reciece them? Oh wait I'll just choose a guy to take my place before I go then everything will be fine." Like no duh every protestant church has some form of succession for its leadership and rightly so. Without leaders the organization falls apart.

In regards to your statement of salvation, what about the requirement of water baptism? Christ did command the disciples to go out and make followers in the world baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost? So He was just playing and we don't really have to do this? After someone is saved is it permanent or can they become unsaved if they choose? Wait according to Mormon Native Americans are the sons of Satan, you don't associate with any of them do you? Don't forget Calvin said that salvation was not for all but only the Elect, so did God lie? That takes me to another question. Is it true that before a man is born God determines whether or not He will be saved or condemned because I heard of this thing called predestination and it says so? Ooooo wait the new millenist say that the Bible isn't God's Word at all but it really was inspired by men so we should take it so seriously. Well what a relief now I can stop worrying.

See where I'm going with this. Christ said and I quote verbatum;

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

When the disciples said "them" he was talking about the other believers, the large crowd that gave up everything from their homes and majority of their belongings to follow Christ and hear Him speak. The same believers who followed Christ into the desert when they had no food. The same believers who the disciples had to beg Christ to send away so they could go eat. The same believers that Christ fed in that desert. It was US brother. The common children of God's kingdom. The ones the disciples were meant to teach and look after when Christ left.

The mysteries of the kingdom were revealed ONLY to the disciples because it was ONLY the disciples that were commissioned to teach and lead. We were meant to trust in those he sent.

[John 10:10]

And this justifies all those who were killed in the name of the RCC because they dared to proclaim God's Word differently than the RCC!!! 

Are you sure you want to say this was OK for the RCC to do this to stop what the RCC considered heresy?

I don't claim that this justifies violence, but I wanted to clarify the motivations.  The Church has always striven to keep the message of the gospel that was handed down by Jesus to the apostles.

The middle ages were a violent time, and Catholics were just as sinful as anyone else.

Both protestant and Catholics did terrible things to each other, and much of it was motivated by worldly desires rather than religious conviction.

If you knew more about what the Church was up against you wouldn't be so judgmental.  Catholics had been brutally attacked by the Roman empire, Muslims, Carthars, and other radical groups for centuries.

All the Apostles, except maybe John, laid down their lives in martyrdom to spread and maintain the Gospel of Christ, rather than kill those who disagreed with them.  This "clarification" does not hold water!

It's one thing to defend yourself when someone is coming against you with a deadly weapon with intent to kill.

It's another thing entirely to kill those who believe and teach something differently than you do!  Protestants believe it's the Holy Spirit who brings sinners under conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment (John 16:8-11), not the right of any church or "Mother Church" to do so!

[LightHammer]

And this justifies all those who were killed in the name of the RCC because they dared to proclaim God's Word differently than the RCC!!! 

Are you sure you want to say this was OK for the RCC to do this to stop what the RCC considered heresy?

I don't claim that this justifies violence, but I wanted to clarify the motivations.  The Church has always striven to keep the message of the gospel that was handed down by Jesus to the apostles.

The middle ages were a violent time, and Catholics were just as sinful as anyone else.

Both protestant and Catholics did terrible things to each other, and much of it was motivated by worldly desires rather than religious conviction.

If you knew more about what the Church was up against you wouldn't be so judgmental.  Catholics had been brutally attacked by the Roman empire, Muslims, Carthars, and other radical groups for centuries.

All the Apostles, except maybe John, laid down their lives in martyrdom to spread and maintain the Gospel of Christ, rather than kill those who disagreed with them.  This "clarification" does not hold water!

It's one thing to defend yourself when someone is coming against you with a deadly weapon with intent to kill.

It's another thing entirely to kill those who believe and teach something differently than you do!  Protestants believe it's the Holy Spirit who brings sinners under conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment (John 16:8-11), not the right of any church or "Mother Church" to do so!

And rightly so. However the Mother Church, I see you have grown fond of my little term, does not act as the judge of the world but the physical protector and stronghold of Truth. What you have in history is the common mixing of good intentions with horrible means. Means so horrible in fact that to most the good intentions are dilluted to the point of not even being there. However that is man's sin not the Church's err of Jesus' error for making the Church.

There have been countless who have surrendered themselves to their violent impulses and thought if they cloaked it with "God's Will" they be justified. That does not discredit the Church. Look at the history of the world and mankind. There has always been and always will be those who kill in the name of some higher purpose or being. Just because that same mentality was applied to sinners in the Church doesn't discredit it. If tomorrow there were no more Catholic Church those same sinners would merely seek another "higher purpose or being" to aplly their sinful means to and that would succeed in the world only being without the Church Christ founded in the leadership of the Apostles. It would only succeed in letting more and more random people bear contradicting messages they label "of the Holy Spirit". There would be utter chaos.

[Catholica]

what sin this "papacy" is in, the Lord is mad, the Lord is sad.  The least of these will be first.  Man places himself in authority, above His other children.

The humble will reap their harvest, repent great church of Satan, repent great church of pride, your sins are many, repent of your self righteousness, repent you Pharisees.

all Gods children are equal through Jesus Christ, through my son's blood and body.  Salvation does not come through the church, but my Son, His perfect sacrifice, there is no perfect church, perfect ritual, who can save a life from damnation...Only my Son.

  message from the Holy Spirit

To ascribe this message to the Holy Spirit is blasphemy.

[Catholica]

Again you fail to answer the question:  For what crime did John Huss and other reformers deserve to be killed or burned at the stake by the Catholic Church for proclaiming the truths of the completed Bible to the common man?

For hundreds of years after 1388, the Catholic Church continued to persecute, imprison and kill Christians who dared to take the Bible and teach/practice their beliefs apart from the Catholic Church, considering them heretics.

To ignore this truth of history is to live in denial.

Protestants too have had our share of pastors who were/are wolves in sheep clothing.

It was teaching the bible that the Church condemned, it was the teaching of heresy.

Huss was a heretic.  He leaned on his own understanding and led people astray.  He taught the doctrine of impanation, as did Wycliffe.  

I must have missed something.  Most Protestants DO NOT believe in the doctrine of impanation (the doctrine that the body and blood of Christ are in the bread and wine after consecration), but the Papacy does!

No, we don't.  Impanation was a heretical altering of the dogma of transsubstantiation, similar to the way Lutherans believe, but still false.  I don't understand it well enough, but basically this strikes at the source and summit of the faith given to us by Jesus.

Now I get it.  Everyone that taught/teaches the Bible different than the Papacy is a heritic

No, only those who call themselves Catholic and teach false things are heretics. Those outside the Church who teach false things but are honestly seeking truth are not heretics, just deceived persons.

No one is "worthy" of being burned at the stake.  However when Huss lived, that was the punishment in his country for convicted heretics.  Essentially he refused to reject his heresy, the Church convicted him of heresy, and the government executed him.  Certainly it wasn't right, but that was civil law back then.  I haven't heard of too many convicted heretics lately, though some are still excommunicated.   It was simply a different time that is abrasive to our modern cultural upbringing.  

Truth is that important, however, because the only thing worse than dying in a state of mortal sin is leading others into falsehood and ultimately leading them to die in a state of mortal sin through false doctrinal beliefs.

Since the Papacy only recently mofified its teaching that God's salvation was only thru the Catholic Church via Vatican II from 1962-1965.

This is false.  Case in point, one Fr. Feeney who in 1949 rejected the Papal encyclical extra Ecclesiam nulla salus which reiterated a doctrine that was held for all time, most anciently written about in the 3rd century, one held by both Orthodox and Catholics, that even people outside the Church can be saved.  Fr. Feeney, in 1949, rejected this encyclical because he felt that only members of the Catholic Church could be saved.  Fr. Feeney was excommunicated for his insistence on continuing to teach this heresy (the very heresy that Protestants accuse the Church of espousing).  Pure fact is that the doctrine contains subtleties, and those subtleties it seems those outside the Catholic Church never care to learn because its much easier to attack the straw man false "doctrine" that one must be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved to support their own personal rejection of the Catholic faith.

[John 10:10]

Well I'm glad you acknowledged the fact that sinful men have stained the faith on both sides and just the RCC. That would be very crude. Do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that the RCC is perfect it just bothers me how protestants try to use things like the Inquisition and other faults of the Church to disprove it as if protestant churches don't have the same blood on their history. My real favorite is to watch protestants try to dispute apostolic succession. I mean how much sense did the Apostles need to say, "Hey I'm a human which means I'm probably going to die one day. Oh darn it Christ told me to lead and teach the flock and if I die I can't do that. There are still so many secrets that God has to reveal and if I don't stay around who's going to receive them? Oh wait I'll just choose a guy to take my place before I go then everything will be fine." Like no duh every protestant church has some form of succession for its leadership and rightly so. Without leaders the organization falls apart.

In regards to your statement of salvation, what about the requirement of water baptism? Christ did command the disciples to go out and make followers in the world baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost? So He was just playing and we don't really have to do this? After someone is saved is it permanent or can they become unsaved if they choose? Wait according to Mormon Native Americans are the sons of Satan, you don't associate with any of them do you? Don't forget Calvin said that salvation was not for all but only the Elect, so did God lie? That takes me to another question. Is it true that before a man is born God determines whether or not He will be saved or condemned because I heard of this thing called predestination and it says so? Ooooo wait the new millenist say that the Bible isn't God's Word at all but it really was inspired by men so we should take it so seriously. Well what a relief now I can stop worrying.

See where I'm going with this. Christ said and I quote verbatim;

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

When the disciples said "them" he was talking about the other believers, the large crowd that gave up everything from their homes and majority of their belongings to follow Christ and hear Him speak. The same believers who followed Christ into the desert when they had no food. The same believers who the disciples had to beg Christ to send away so they could go eat. The same believers that Christ fed in that desert. It was US brother. The common children of God's kingdom. The ones the disciples were meant to teach and look after when Christ left.

The mysteries of the kingdom were revealed ONLY to the disciples because it was ONLY the disciples that were commissioned to teach and lead. We were meant to trust in those he sent.   

Yes, sinful men have stained the faith on both sides, not just the RCC.  The sooner we all acknowledge this, the sooner we can all learn from their mistakes, and learn how to better live by God's law of agape love.

Most Protestants understand that water baptism is for those who "have" already entered into God's salvation and received the gift of God's Spirit (see Acts 10:47-48).  There are a few that believe it's necessary for God's salvation, but they are in the great minority.

Protestants will always disagree with those who say that God's Word can only be correctly understood and taught by those who are in the line of Apostolic succession and belonged/belong to the Mother Church.  Great truth is in the RCC, and for this I am very gratefull.  Great truth also resides within Protestantism, and for this you should be gratefull as well.  Only the whole Church has the whole truth of God.  But where what I believe as a Protestant or what you believe as a Catholic cannot be clearly shown as truth according to Scripture, much error and evil has entered into both.

The mysteries of the kingdom of heaven are for all God's children who have received the gift of God's Spirit, those who can hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches (Rev 2:7, 11, 17, 29, 3:6, 13, 22).

Blessings

[chestertonrules]

Yes, sinful men have stained the faith on both sides, not just the RCC.  The sooner we all acknowledge this, the sooner we can all learn from their mistakes, and learn how to better live by God's law of agape love.

Most Protestants understand that water baptism is for those who "have" already entered into God's salvation and received the gift of God's Spirit (see Acts 10:47-48).  There are a few that believe it's necessary for God's salvation, but they are in the great minority.

Protestants will always disagree with those who say that God's Word can only be correctly understood and taught by those who are in the line of Apostolic succession and belonged/belong to the Mother Church.  Great truth is in the RCC, and for this I am very gratefull.  Great truth also resides within Protestantism, and for this you should be gratefull as well.  Only the whole Church has the whole truth of God.  But where what I believe as a Protestant or what you believe as a Catholic cannot be clearly shown as truth according to Scripture, much error and evil has entered into both.

The mysteries of the kingdom of heaven are for all God's children who have received the gift of God's Spirit, those who can hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches (Rev 2:7, 11, 17, 29, 3:6, 13, 22).

Blessings

Protestants hold multiple contradictory views.  That's what happens when individual interpretation is a spiritual guide

The bible is the inspired word of God, but Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church.

[John T]

Protestants hold multiple contradictory views. 

And I suppose that the differences between the Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans, (just to name a few) are different?

That's what happens when individual interpretation is a spiritual guide

That consistency argument is an old canard, as proved by the divisions within Roman Catholicism. The differences among the fundamental Christians can be correctly attributed to their different interpretations, but that does not mean that one is apostate because they see some things differently (example is rapture) when they collectively hold to the inerrancy of the autographa and agree with the major Ecumenical creeds.

The bible is the inspired word of God, but Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church.

Not quite true for two reasons:
1) Jesus called Disciples. The Disciples called Apostles. The Apostles were the church planters.
2) Who do you think is behind the inspired Word of God, if not Jesus? (rhetorical) He caused the writers of the OT and NT to write precisely, and inerrantly.

[Selene]

And I suppose that the differences between the Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans, (just to name a few) are different?

How are they different when they all follow the same Catholic doctrine?

Not quite true for two reasons:
1) Jesus called Disciples. The Disciples called Apostles. The Apostles were the church planters.
2) Who do you think is behind the inspired Word of God, if not Jesus? (rhetorical) He caused the writers of the OT and NT to write precisely, and inerrantly.

What do you mean "not quite true."  The disciples and Apostles make up the first Church.  Jesus was already using the word Church when He was telling His disciples that if they have a problem with a brother, they are to take the matter to the Church (Matthew 18:17).  It was Christ who built and founded the Church, and Christ is the Head of the Church.   The Word of God was first taught to people ORALLY.  The oral word came first before the written word.  The entire Bible was compiled until the 4th century.  Whenever the Apostles spoke about Scripture, it was the Old Testament Torah that they were referring to.   They never referred to any of the books in the New Testament.   

[tinker]

Interesting site to read about Catholics

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/heresy_of_antipopes_john_paul_ii_and_benedict_xvi.php

[Berndt Totterman]

Jesus,our Lords peace be with You.
Dear friend,I assume that You are a Catholic like I am,so You know the answer,but for those who not,please use 5 minutes good and pick up Your Bible and read Matt.16:17-19.
All Churches has it's leaders,it can be a archbishop or in our case our Holy Father,and the fact that Jesus gave St.Peter the "keys" to heaven,means that who ever follow St.Peter in the long line of Popes we have had,is the successor of St.Peter,and so the "earthly" leader of the Church. Many don't understand that,and that is the biggest issues between Catholics and other Christians. It don't have to be so,we don't tell You what to do,and neither You tell us to do,am I right? No,side by side as Christians we follow Jesus and do so remembering His words:"Those who are whit us,is not against us". That is the true messages He gave. As Martin Luther King I have a dream to,a dream where all Christians,no matter to which christian church they belong to,follows Jesus and do as He teach ed,and not only Christians,but people from all around the world,do what is the most import en thing to do,love each other without the question "why" but "how",yes,how can we do things right. And that is what the Catholic Church also teaches,or lets say,repeat,as the words from Jesus himself.

[chestertonrules]

Interesting site to read about Catholics

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/heresy_of_antipopes_john_paul_ii_and_benedict_xvi.php

This site is constructed by a Sedevacantist, ie. a former Catholic  who has apostasized.

Take it for what it's worth.  

[John T]

And I suppose that the differences between the Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans, (just to name a few) are different?

How are they different when they all follow the same Catholic doctrine?

The fact is, like it or not is that they ALL follow and accept the Ecumenical Creeds as definitive of their faith. Therefore the GARBC, Southern Baptists, and IFCA churches have many things in common with the Methodists, Wesleans, AOG and the RC church.

Not quite true for two reasons:
1) Jesus called Disciples. The Disciples called Apostles. The Apostles were the church planters.
2) Who do you think is behind the inspired Word of God, if not Jesus? (rhetorical) He caused the writers of the OT and NT to write precisely, and inerrantly.

What do you mean "not quite true."  The disciples and Apostles make up the first Church.  Jesus was already using the word Church when He was telling His disciples that if they have a problem with a brother, they are to take the matter to the Church (Matthew 18:17).  It was Christ who built and founded the Church, and Christ is the Head of the Church.   The Word of God was first taught to people ORALLY.  The oral word came first before the written word.  The entire Bible was compiled until the 4th century.  Whenever the Apostles spoke about Scripture, it was the Old Testament Torah that they were referring to.   They never referred to any of the books in the New Testament.   

An argument from silence.

The first NT Canon book, (James?) was written c. 57, and the last, John was written c. 96. During that time, the Apostles KNEW that thy were writing Canon, as seen in such Peter and 2 Timothy 3:16. Therefore before they wrote Canon, the Apostles had no other reference other than the OT, and that included Torah, Wisdom Literature and the Prophets.

The NT was codified c.220, not later. You are taking the extreme liberal position when you say 4th Century meaning the 300s.

Whenever the Apostles spoke about Scripture, it was the Old Testament Torah that they were referring to FYI Torah is the same as the Pentateuch, the books of Moses. There is more that they referred to.

As far as "not quite true" I meant as I wrote. While the Disciples did have an organization of sorts with Judas as the treasurer, and they did have substantial funds, for 30 pieces of silver was a lot of money, Jesus did NOT create the church. Look at Matthew 29. In the last verses, he calls us to make disciples, not build a church. If Jesus meant "build a church" He would have said that word, exactly.

As to your reference to Matt 18:17, that is not the "exact translation" of the word here because it is anachronistically translated as "church", and the word has come to mean "church. Actually, the literal meaning is "called out ones", as below

ἐκκλησία, ας f
  a congregation: 11.32
  b church: 11.33
  c assembly: 11.78


Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 2: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (77). New York: United Bible societies.

Likewise there is no formal organization comprising a "church" in all of Acts. Yes, there were spiritual overseers, called Apostles, Disciples and Deacons, and that was the way that it was until 325 when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Hope that this helps

[John 10:10]

Yes, sinful men have stained the faith on both sides, not just the RCC.  The sooner we all acknowledge this, the sooner we can all learn from their mistakes, and learn how to better live by God's law of agape love.

Most Protestants understand that water baptism is for those who "have" already entered into God's salvation and received the gift of God's Spirit (see Acts 10:47-48).  There are a few that believe it's necessary for God's salvation, but they are in the great minority.

Protestants will always disagree with those who say that God's Word can only be correctly understood and taught by those who are in the line of Apostolic succession and belonged/belong to the Mother Church.  Great truth is in the RCC, and for this I am very gratefull.  Great truth also resides within Protestantism, and for this you should be gratefull as well.  Only the whole Church has the whole truth of God.  But where what I believe as a Protestant or what you believe as a Catholic cannot be clearly shown as truth according to Scripture, much error and evil has entered into both.

The mysteries of the kingdom of heaven are for all God's children who have received the gift of God's Spirit, those who can hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches (Rev 2:7, 11, 17, 29, 3:6, 13, 22).

Blessings

Protestants hold multiple contradictory views.  That's what happens when individual interpretation is a spiritual guide

The bible is the inspired word of God, but Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church.  

When sinfull men stain the faith by stealing, killing, and destroying those who were one a part of their faith, this is no different that what Muslims do when Muslims leave the Islamic faith, are then considered apostates, and can be/are then killed under Islamic Law.  The RCC did this for many hundreds of years.  So also did Anglican churches in England, and to a much lesser extent did some Puritan churches until the American Revolution in the late 1700's.

The central point of truth you miss (maybe you just disagree) is that most Protestants trust in the gift of God's Spirit to guide us into all Scriptural truth, where as the Papacy believes God speaks only through the Papacy because of Apostolic succession, and then the Papacy to the people.

Do all Protestants get God's truth right?  No, we don't!  But most Protestants get it right on matters essential to salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.  For matters not essential to salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, Protestants believe in the liberty of local churches to fulfill their unique callings in the body of Christ.  A "one local church" does not fit all local churches everywhere.

Yes, the Lord Jesus started the body of Christ, also called the Church, so that all believers can drink of one Spirit.

1 Cor 12:12-13 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

[chestertonrules]

When sinfull men stain the faith by stealing, killing, and destroying those who were one a part of their faith, this is no different that what Muslims do when Muslims leave the Islamic faith, are then considered apostates, and can be/are then killed under Islamic Law.  The RCC did this for many hundreds of years.  So also did Anglican churches in England, and to a much lesser extent did some Puritan churches until the American Revolution in the late 1700's.

All men are sinful.  That's why we need Jesus.

You are avoiding the point which is that protestant Churches teach multiple contradictory doctrines and moralities.

It is one thing for an individual to sin, it is quite another for a Church to change what constitutes sin.

For example:  abortion, divorce, gay marriage, practicing gay clergy, artificial birth control, etc.

[John 10:10]

When sinfull men stain the faith by stealing, killing, and destroying those who were one a part of their faith, this is no different that what Muslims do when Muslims leave the Islamic faith, are then considered apostates, and can be/are then killed under Islamic Law.  The RCC did this for many hundreds of years.  So also did Anglican churches in England, and to a much lesser extent did some Puritan churches until the American Revolution in the late 1700's.   

All men are sinful.  That's why we need Jesus.

You are avoiding the point which is that protestant Churches teach multiple contradictory doctrines and moralities.

It is one thing for an individual to sin, it is quite another for a Church to change what constitutes sin.

For example:  abortion, divorce, gay marriage, practicing gay clergy, artificial birth control, etc.  

You are avoiding the truth that judgment of one's faith is left to God, not to man, or to the RCC!  The RCC did this for hundreds and hundreds of years, killing millions during these years.

Yes, many protestant Churches teach multiple contradictory doctrines and moralities.  Unless these teaching result in practices that violate the governmental laws of cities. states, nations, then believers should be allowed to believe whatever they want.

The Church does not, nor cannot change what constitutes sin.  Jesus put sin in a nutshell when He said,

"Concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me." 

All behavioral sins come from this primary sin, not allowing Jesus to truly be Lord of our lives.  When Jesus is truly Lord of our lives, we do not try to be the religious police of everyone else's beliefs.  We should allow freedom of our faith beliefs to everyone, then trust in just governments "who brings wrath upon the one who practice evil" (Rom 13:4).

[chestertonrules]

Again you fail to answer the question:  For what crime did John Huss and other reformers deserve to be killed or burned at the stake by the Catholic Church for proclaiming the truths of the completed Bible to the common man?

For hundreds of years after 1388, the Catholic Church continued to persecute, imprison and kill Christians who dared to take the Bible and teach/practice their beliefs apart from the Catholic Church, considering them heretics.

To ignore this truth of history is to live in denial.

Protestants too have had our share of pastors who were/are wolves in sheep clothing.

It was teaching the bible that the Church condemned, it was the teaching of heresy.

Huss was a heretic.  He leaned on his own understanding and led people astray.  He taught the doctrine of impanation, as did Wycliffe.  

I must have missed something.  Most Protestants DO NOT believe in the doctrine of impanation (the doctrine that the body and blood of Christ are in the bread and wine after consecration), but the Papacy does!

No, we don't.  Impanation was a heretical altering of the dogma of transsubstantiation, similar to the way Lutherans believe, but still false.  I don't understand it well enough, but basically this strikes at the source and summit of the faith given to us by Jesus.

Now I get it.  Everyone that taught/teaches the Bible different than the Papacy is a heritic

No, only those who call themselves Catholic and teach false things are heretics. Those outside the Church who teach false things but are honestly seeking truth are not heretics, just deceived persons.

No one is "worthy" of being burned at the stake.  However when Huss lived, that was the punishment in his country for convicted heretics.  Essentially he refused to reject his heresy, the Church convicted him of heresy, and the government executed him.  Certainly it wasn't right, but that was civil law back then.  I haven't heard of too many convicted heretics lately, though some are still excommunicated.   It was simply a different time that is abrasive to our modern cultural upbringing.  

Truth is that important, however, because the only thing worse than dying in a state of mortal sin is leading others into falsehood and ultimately leading them to die in a state of mortal sin through false doctrinal beliefs.

Since the Papacy only recently mofified its teaching that God's salvation was only thru the Catholic Church via Vatican II from 1962-1965.

This is false.  Case in point, one Fr. Feeney who in 1949 rejected the Papal encyclical extra Ecclesiam nulla salus which reiterated a doctrine that was held for all time, most anciently written about in the 3rd century, one held by both Orthodox and Catholics, that even people outside the Church can be saved.  Fr. Feeney, in 1949, rejected this encyclical because he felt that only members of the Catholic Church could be saved.  Fr. Feeney was excommunicated for his insistence on continuing to teach this heresy (the very heresy that Protestants accuse the Church of espousing).  Pure fact is that the doctrine contains subtleties, and those subtleties it seems those outside the Catholic Church never care to learn because its much easier to attack the straw man false "doctrine" that one must be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved to support their own personal rejection of the Catholic faith.

Jesus told you to listen to those he sent.

You must determine who they are and whether or not you will obey Jesus.

[John 10:10]

Catholica,

Maybe you should give us a better understanding of the difference between impanation vs. transubstantiation.  Regardless of what one believes concerning this and others matters of faith, it is not the right nor should be the power of any Church to put people to death because of what they believe.  Justifying what the RCC did during the Dark Ages by saying that's just the way life was back then is living in denial.

John Huss was promised safe passage to his trial by Sigismund of Hungary; but once in the hands of his accusers, the prelates convinced Sigismund that he could not be bound by promises to a heretic.  When sentenced to death for his supposed beliefs by false accusers, Huss declared,

"God is my witness that the things charged against me I never preached. In the same truth of the Gospel which I have written, taught, and preached, drawing upon the sayings and positions of the holy doctors, I am ready to die today."

I'm sure you could find other statements by others within the RCC that opposed the teachings of the RCC before Vatican II.  But the truth of the matter is that only after Vatican II did the Papacy put its full weight behind the truth that people of faith also resided outside the RCC.

[John 10:10]

Jesus told you to listen to those he sent.

You must determine who they are and whether or not you will obey Jesus.

Jesus told us to listen to the truth of John 16:13-15,

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you."

As long as you believe this truth was given "ONLY" given to the Apostles and now resides "ONLY" in the Papacy, we will have to just agree to disagree.

[chestertonrules]

Jesus told you to listen to those he sent.

You must determine who they are and whether or not you will obey Jesus.

Jesus told us to listen to the truth of John 16:13-15,

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you."

Jesus wasn't talking to you in John 16, he was talking to the apostles.

We don't get to make up our own message, we are to follow their message.


Jesus prays for his disciples:

John 17
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.


Jesus Prays for All Believers

    20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

[Selene]

And I suppose that the differences between the Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans, (just to name a few) are different?

How are they different when they all follow the same Catholic doctrine?

The fact is, like it or not is that they ALL follow and accept the Ecumenical Creeds as definitive of their faith. Therefore the GARBC, Southern Baptists, and IFCA churches have many things in common with the Methodists, Wesleans, AOG and the RC church.

So, again, how are they different?  The fact that they ALL follow and accept the Ecumenical Creeds such as the Nicene Creed does not make them divided.  We also follow and accept the Nicene Creed.  We have one doctrine that we all follow; therefore, we are not divided as our Protestant brothers are.  Everyone who declares himself/herself Catholic follow one Catholic doctrine such as the immaculate conception and transubstantiation.  And the Catholic Church stands clear on what they teach.  

As far as "not quite true" I meant as I wrote. While the Disciples did have an organization of sorts with Judas as the treasurer, and they did have substantial funds, for 30 pieces of silver was a lot of money, Jesus did NOT create the church. Look at Matthew 29. In the last verses, he calls us to make disciples, not build a church. If Jesus meant "build a church" He would have said that word, exactly.

Jesus did built a Church.  It says so in the Bible (See Matthew 16:18).   The first Church founded by Christ were His disciples and Apostles.  From there, the Church grew.

[John 10:10]

Jesus told you to listen to those he sent.

You must determine who they are and whether or not you will obey Jesus.

Jesus told us to listen to the truth of John 16:13-15,

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you."

Jesus wasn't talking to you in John 16, he was talking to the apostles.

We don't get to make up our own message, we are to follow their message.


Jesus prays for his disciples:

John 17
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.


Jesus Prays for All Believers

    20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

I'm sure you will also say these verses Paul wrote were just for himself and the other Apostles, and not for all Christians.

1 Cor 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

Yes, we don't get to make up our own message, but we do have the privilege of entering into the truth of every word God has given us in His Word, if in faith we choose to partake.

[mclees8]

Jesus told you to listen to those he sent.

You must determine who they are and whether or not you will obey Jesus.

Jesus told us to listen to the truth of John 16:13-15,

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you."

Jesus wasn't talking to you in John 16, he was talking to the apostles.

We don't get to make up our own message, we are to follow their message.


Jesus prays for his disciples:

John 17
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.


Jesus Prays for All Believers

    20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

Yes he spoke to the disciples, but the promise is for all believers. This promise is for all who will believe  in Jesus through their message. Do you not remember that the Holy spirit as clothen tongues of fire sat on all of the 120 in the upper room and they were all filled with the holy ghost and with power to preach the gospel. All through the book of acts converts were were filled  with the holy ghost when the apostles laid hands on them.  This same Holy spirit will guide us into all truth. Christ is the truth and the fullness thereof. all who are filled with his spirit are guided of Him and shall know the truth. 

Sadly you know little about how the Holy Spirit works in all who desire to have him.

There is only one message of truth and that is Jesus Christ crucified for the sins of the world. That Jesus was at work in the creation and is the first and the last. the beginning and the end. He is the Lord and none stand beside Him. This truth is given to us by His Holy Spirit. It is not just for certain apostles but to all the love the truth.