Papacy - right or wrong?

[John 10:10]

I have one more question for Chesterton. Lets say a man is far away from any Bishop or priest but he is hurt and knows he is dying. In his final moments he has no one but Christ to absolve him for his sins. So he calls upon the name of Jesus and not just lightly but with a true broken Spirit. Will he find forgiveness even if there was no priest there for him. How many die without absolution yet you will still find them in heaven?

One must determine to obey all God's commandments, and one of those commandments is that one must confess all mortal sins committed after baptism to a duly authorized priest. If there is no priest to be had, then God accepts the will for the deed. He will not accept the will for the deed if there is a duly authorized priest available. Remember the act of perfect contrition always takes away all sins immediately. 

This may be RCC dogma, but not Scriptural truth. 

Since "the act of perfect contrition (to God) always takes away all sins immediately," what more can any Bishop or priest do for you than God can do for you?

A priest can forgive sins that are confessed with imperfect contrition.  

The RCC is still fighting the same war it fought with the Reformers, that imperfect man with imperfect contrition can use a mediator other than the Lord Jesus Christ.   WOW!!!

How can one reason with this?

As for me and my house, we will use the ONLY mediator that can and does forgive our sin - the Lord Jesus Christ.

[LightHammer]

I have one more question for Chesterton. Lets say a man is far away from any Bishop or priest but he is hurt and knows he is dying. In his final moments he has no one but Christ to absolve him for his sins. So he calls upon the name of Jesus and not just lightly but with a true broken Spirit. Will he find forgiveness even if there was no priest there for him. How many die without absolution yet you will still find them in heaven?

One must determine to obey all God's commandments, and one of those commandments is that one must confess all mortal sins committed after baptism to a duly authorized priest. If there is no priest to be had, then God accepts the will for the deed. He will not accept the will for the deed if there is a duly authorized priest available. Remember the act of perfect contrition always takes away all sins immediately. 

This may be RCC dogma, but not Scriptural truth. 

Since "the act of perfect contrition (to God) always takes away all sins immediately," what more can any Bishop or priest do for you than God can do for you?

A priest can forgive sins that are confessed with imperfect contrition.  

The RCC is still fighting the same war it fought with the Reformers, that imperfect man with imperfect contrition can use a mediator other than the Lord Jesus Christ.   WOW!!!

How can one reason with this?

As for me and my house, we will use the ONLY mediator that can and does forgive our sin - the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are not listening at all. I think I have explained it well enough just go back and look brother. Nothing sinful nothing wrong nothing false.

[chestertonrules]

The RCC is still fighting the same war it fought with the Reformers, that imperfect man with imperfect contrition can use a mediator other than the Lord Jesus Christ.   WOW!!!

How can one reason with this?

As for me and my house, we will use the ONLY mediator that can and does forgive our sin - the Lord Jesus Christ.

The priests acts as Christ.

Only God can forgive sins.  Thankfully,  he has given us a process for receiving this forgiveness.

Reject it if you think your idea is better than that of Jesus.

[John 10:10]

The RCC is still fighting the same war it fought with the Reformers, that imperfect man with imperfect contrition can use a mediator other than the Lord Jesus Christ.   WOW!!!

How can one reason with this?

As for me and my house, we will use the ONLY mediator that can and does forgive our sin - the Lord Jesus Christ.

The priests acts as Christ.

Only God can forgive sins.  Thankfully,  he has given us a process for receiving this forgiveness.

Reject it if you think your idea is better than that of Jesus.

My idea is the same one the Scripture has been proclaiming for almost 2000 years.  

The process as you call it is simply this:

If we confess our sins, God (not a priest acting as or for Christ) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.   (1 John 1:9)

[Josiah]

Also, you are ignoring this:

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Chesteronrules, I think you are ignoring much.  Among the many things....


1.  Jesius never appointed the RCC to do anything for anything in the name of anyone; He never so much as ever MENTIONED it.


2.   Nor did He ever so delegate or authorize or appoint the clergy correctly ordained by the Catholic denomination (and perhaps also the EO); He never so much as even MENTIONED them or it.  For anything, in any regard.


3.  What Jesus DID do is tell all the disciples to pray, ".... forgive us our sins AS WE OURSELVES FORGIVE THOSE who sin against us."   If He is not telling us to forgive sins, then by praying this petition, we are asking God to NOT forgive us because we cannot forgive others.


So, what IS clear is that all disciples not only may forgive but our forgiveness hinges on such.  And that He never limited forgivensess to priests ordained into the RCC denomination.

Now, I have no idea what this has to do with the heads of any specific denomination:  mine, the RCC, the LDS or any other.







.

[LightHammer]

Also, you are ignoring this:

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Chesteronrules, I think you are ignoring much.  Among the many things....


1.  Jesius never appointed the RCC to do anything for anything in the name of anyone; He never so much as ever MENTIONED it.


2.   Nor did He ever so delegate or authorize or appoint the clergy correctly ordained by the Catholic denomination (and perhaps also the EO); He never so much as even MENTIONED them or it.  For anything, in any regard.


3.  What Jesus DID do is tell all the disciples to pray, ".... forgive us our sins AS WE OURSELVES FORGIVE THOSE who sin against us."   If He is not telling us to forgive sins, then by praying this petition, we are asking God to NOT forgive us because we cannot forgive others.


So, what IS clear is that all disciples not only may forgive but our forgiveness hinges on such.  And that He never limited forgivensess to priests ordained into the RCC denomination.

Now, I have no idea what this has to do with the heads of any specific denomination:  mine, the RCC, the LDS or any other.







.

I feel like I want to cry every time I read this.

Where do you think the RCC, Eastern Orthodox and Cotpic heads got their origins?

[chestertonrules]

My idea is the same one the Scripture has been proclaiming for almost 2000 years.  

The process as you call it is simply this:

If we confess our sins, God (not a priest acting as or for Christ) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.   (1 John 1:9)

Nothing there that is contradictory to the Gospel as taught by Jesus.  God is not limited by your understanding or dogmas.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

[John 10:10]

My idea is the same one the Scripture has been proclaiming for almost 2000 years.  

The process as you call it is simply this:

If we confess our sins, God (not a priest acting as or for Christ) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.   (1 John 1:9)

Nothing there that is contradictory to the Gospel as taught by Jesus.  God is not limited by your understanding or dogmas.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." 

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit
God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake: and accordingly,

they are remitted unto them;
in agreement with Christ's own words, in his declaration and commission to his disciples; see ( Mark 16:16 ) ( Luke 24:47 ) . On the other hand he signifies, that

whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained:
that is, that whatsoever sins ye declare are not forgiven, they are not forgiven; which is the case of all final unbelievers, and impenitent sinners; who dying without repentance towards God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel declaration, shall be damned, and are damned; for God stands by, and will stand by and confirm the Gospel of his Son, faithfully preached by his ministering servants; and all the world will sooner or later be convinced of the validity, truth, and certainty, of the declarations on each of these heads, made by them.

No where in the Gospels, the Book of Acts, or in Paul's Epistles do we see any instance where any of Jesus Disciples exercised this "supposed" power to forgive others their personal sins.  This "supposed" power came much later thru the RCC as the RCC used this "supposed" power to establish its own power, manipulation and control over its people.

Forgiving others their sins against us is primarily for our benefit (see Matt 6:12, 14-15) so that our heavenly Father will forgive our sins.

[chestertonrules]

My idea is the same one the Scripture has been proclaiming for almost 2000 years.  

The process as you call it is simply this:

If we confess our sins, God (not a priest acting as or for Christ) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.   (1 John 1:9)

Nothing there that is contradictory to the Gospel as taught by Jesus.  God is not limited by your understanding or dogmas.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." 

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit
God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake: and accordingly,

they are remitted unto them;
in agreement with Christ's own words, in his declaration and commission to his disciples; see ( Mark 16:16 ) ( Luke 24:47 ) . On the other hand he signifies, that

whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained:
that is, that whatsoever sins ye declare are not forgiven, they are not forgiven; which is the case of all final unbelievers, and impenitent sinners; who dying without repentance towards God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel declaration, shall be damned, and are damned; for God stands by, and will stand by and confirm the Gospel of his Son, faithfully preached by his ministering servants; and all the world will sooner or later be convinced of the validity, truth, and certainty, of the declarations on each of these heads, made by them.

No where in the Gospels, the Book of Acts, or in Paul's Epistles do we see any instance where any of Jesus Disciples exercised this "supposed" power to forgive others their personal sins.  This "supposed" power came much later thru the RCC as the RCC used this "supposed" power to establish its own power, manipulation and control over its people.

Forgiving others their sins against us is primarily for our benefit (see Matt 6:12, 14-15) so that our heavenly Father will forgive our sins.

2 Cor 5:18
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.


John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."  [/quote]

James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Acts 19:18 Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds.

[John 10:10]

My idea is the same one the Scripture has been proclaiming for almost 2000 years.  

The process as you call it is simply this:

If we confess our sins, God (not a priest acting as or for Christ) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.   (1 John 1:9)

Nothing there that is contradictory to the Gospel as taught by Jesus.  God is not limited by your understanding or dogmas.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." 

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit
God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake: and accordingly,

they are remitted unto them;
in agreement with Christ's own words, in his declaration and commission to his disciples; see ( Mark 16:16 ) ( Luke 24:47 ) . On the other hand he signifies, that

whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained:
that is, that whatsoever sins ye declare are not forgiven, they are not forgiven; which is the case of all final unbelievers, and impenitent sinners; who dying without repentance towards God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel declaration, shall be damned, and are damned; for God stands by, and will stand by and confirm the Gospel of his Son, faithfully preached by his ministering servants; and all the world will sooner or later be convinced of the validity, truth, and certainty, of the declarations on each of these heads, made by them.

No where in the Gospels, the Book of Acts, or in Paul's Epistles do we see any instance where any of Jesus Disciples exercised this "supposed" power to forgive others their personal sins.  This "supposed" power came much later thru the RCC as the RCC used this "supposed" power to establish its own power, manipulation and control over its people.

Forgiving others their sins against us is primarily for our benefit (see Matt 6:12, 14-15) so that our heavenly Father will forgive our sins.

2 Cor 5:18
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.

The ministry of reconciliation that Paul speaks of as ambassadors for Christ is taking the Gospel of Christ to sinners, and making an appeal to them to be reconciled to God (verse 20).  No where does Paul forgive them of their personal sins.  This all sinners must do for themselves to receive God's salvation.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it. 

God's truth is not only given in words in Scripture, but also in how the words are exercised in practice in Scripture.  Sometime after the first century church, those connected with the RCC established this doctrine that because of the words of John 20:23, Jesus gave them the power to remit the sins of others so that they could be saved.  Show us anywhere in the New testament where the apostles exercised God's salvation power for sinners?

James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Yes, when we have sinned against other Christians, sickness can result from these sins.  Verse 15 says "the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick."  When there is a "therefore," look at what directly preceded the therefore.  Verse 16 is telling the sinner to confess his sins so that God will forgive his sins. 

Acts 19:18 Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds.

Confessing one's evil deeds shows true repentance for their sins.  Nothing before verse 18 says Paul extended to these sinners God's forgiveness so that they could be saved.

[chestertonrules]

My idea is the same one the Scripture has been proclaiming for almost 2000 years.  

The process as you call it is simply this:

If we confess our sins, God (not a priest acting as or for Christ) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.   (1 John 1:9)

Nothing there that is contradictory to the Gospel as taught by Jesus.  God is not limited by your understanding or dogmas.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." 

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit
God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake: and accordingly,

they are remitted unto them;
in agreement with Christ's own words, in his declaration and commission to his disciples; see ( Mark 16:16 ) ( Luke 24:47 ) . On the other hand he signifies, that

whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained:
that is, that whatsoever sins ye declare are not forgiven, they are not forgiven; which is the case of all final unbelievers, and impenitent sinners; who dying without repentance towards God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel declaration, shall be damned, and are damned; for God stands by, and will stand by and confirm the Gospel of his Son, faithfully preached by his ministering servants; and all the world will sooner or later be convinced of the validity, truth, and certainty, of the declarations on each of these heads, made by them.

No where in the Gospels, the Book of Acts, or in Paul's Epistles do we see any instance where any of Jesus Disciples exercised this "supposed" power to forgive others their personal sins.  This "supposed" power came much later thru the RCC as the RCC used this "supposed" power to establish its own power, manipulation and control over its people.

Forgiving others their sins against us is primarily for our benefit (see Matt 6:12, 14-15) so that our heavenly Father will forgive our sins.

2 Cor 5:18
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.

The ministry of reconciliation that Paul speaks of as ambassadors for Christ is taking the Gospel of Christ to sinners, and making an appeal to them to be reconciled to God (verse 20).  No where does Paul forgive them of their personal sins.  This all sinners must do for themselves to receive God's salvation.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it. 

God's truth is not only given in words in Scripture, but also in how the words are exercised in practice in Scripture.  Sometime after the first century church, those connected with the RCC established this doctrine that because of the words of John 20:23, Jesus gave them the power to remit the sins of others so that they could be saved.  Show us anywhere in the New testament where the apostles exercised God's salvation power for sinners?

James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Yes, when we have sinned against other Christians, sickness can result from these sins.  Verse 15 says "the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick."  When there is a "therefore," look at what directly preceded the therefore.  Verse 16 is telling the sinner to confess his sins so that God will forgive his sins. 

Acts 19:18 Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds.

Confessing one's evil deeds shows true repentance for their sins.  Nothing before verse 18 says Paul extended to these sinners God's forgiveness so that they could be saved.

You don't accept the clear words of scripture.

You prefer a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ.

[John 10:10]

You don't accept the clear words of scripture.

You prefer a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ. 

If you can show us anywhere in Scripture where the apostles exercised God's salvation power that saved a single sinner, then you would have something in Scripture to back up what the RCC proclaims John 20:23 means.

Until then, it is the RCC that "prefers a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ."

[tinker]

They say a picture said a thousand woeds,see pictures..
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_idols.htm

Another picture of idol worship..
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/a_picture_says%20it_all.htm

[LightHammer]

They say a picture said a thousand woeds,see pictures..
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_idols.htm

Another picture of idol worship..
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/a_picture_says%20it_all.htm

So I guess the Lincoln Memorial and the statue of Dr. MLK Jr. are also meant to for idol worship as well. Monuments made to honor those who people believed to do great works to better mankind are nothing but mere establishments of idol worship.

Don't be so blinded by the anticatholic sites you visit regularly. Look at the situation from a catholic's eyes. They believe that their leaders give up everything and assume the same holy office of the Apostles and sacrifice everything for the cause of God's kingdom. There is a great difference between worship and honoring.

In regards to the relics of Christ and Mary, you guys seem to forget that a few thousand years ago people as whole were very illiterate. The common man could not read or write. So aside from word of mouth, art was a means of communication. People used great artworks to tell stories or deliver a message. The same is said of the early Church. To make the message of Christ and all that they believed about more available to the public, they crafted great artworks and put them everywhere. Statues of angels guarding the great cities and institutions as a reminder of the angel's role as soldiers for God. Icons of Mary, that usually seemed to be a bit less grand only then he ones of Christ, to remind the people of the sacrifice of a lone woman from the Levi which bore Christ into the world. Icons of Christ to show that He is always there. They had artwork built in architecture and local infrastructure.

You need only to understand the situation at the time to know the real meaning behind so many physicals symbols for Christianity.

[chestertonrules]

You don't accept the clear words of scripture.

You prefer a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ. 

If you can show us anywhere in Scripture where the apostles exercised God's salvation power that saved a single sinner, then you would have something in Scripture to back up what the RCC proclaims John 20:23 means.

Until then, it is the RCC that "prefers a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ."

Do you deny that the apostles spread the gospel of reconciliation?

Do you deny the confession of sins?

I'm not sure what your point is.

Jesus gave the Church HIS authority.  The Church is HIS body.

What does that leave out?

[LightHammer]

You don't accept the clear words of scripture.

You prefer a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ. 

If you can show us anywhere in Scripture where the apostles exercised God's salvation power that saved a single sinner, then you would have something in Scripture to back up what the RCC proclaims John 20:23 means.

Until then, it is the RCC that "prefers a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ."

Thats not fair though. You have to understand that Scripture doesn't contain every single detail of early Church history or every divine truth in existence. Yes it contains all that is necessary to uncover the truth of salvation but it is not a history book. It is for guidance.

Do you see what I am getting at? If I tell you St. Ignatius existed, studied at the feet of John and was eaten by lions for his service to the cross will you call me a liar because all his great acts and sacrifices aren't mentioned in Scripture? What if I tell you that Peter was crucified upside down? Will you spit in my face an say, "Show me in scripture where it says that!"

Of course not brother because you know that Scripture ends with Revelations, with John on the island of Patmos. God is Truth, which therefore makes Truth infinite. When you accept this you realize scripture is only a piece of what the Truth and can not possibly contain all the truths of God or His Church in its physical parameters.

[Selene]

I agree.  God's truth is not just found in the Bible.  If it is truthful that the earth rotates on its axis and revolves around the sun, then that is still truth even if it's not found in Scripture.  If it is truthful that that the earth is a planet, then that is truth even if it does not say that in the Bible.  If it is truthful that George Washington once walked on this planet, then that is still truth even if the name George Washington is not found in scripture. 

[mclees8]

Until then, it is the RCC that "prefers a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ."


L H says
Thats not fair though. You have to understand that Scripture doesn't contain every single detail of early Church history or every divine truth in existence. Yes it contains all that is necessary to uncover the truth of salvation but it is not a history book. It is for guidance.

Do you see what I am getting at? If I tell you St. Ignatius existed, studied at the feet of John and was eaten by lions for his service to the cross will you call me a liar because all his great acts and sacrifices aren't mentioned in Scripture? What if I tell you that Peter was crucified upside down? Will you spit in my face an say, "Show me in scripture where it says that!"

Of course not brother because you know that Scripture ends with Revelations, with John on the island of Patmos. God is Truth, which therefore makes Truth infinite. When you accept this you realize scripture is only a piece of what the Truth and can not possibly contain all the truths of God or His Church in its physical parameters.

I agree.  God's truth is not just found in the Bible.  If it is truthful that the earth rotates on its axis and revolves around the sun, then that is still truth even if it's not found in Scripture.  If it is truthful that that the earth is a planet, then that is truth even if it does not say that in the Bible.  If it is truthful that George Washington once walked on this planet, then that is still truth even if the name George Washington is not found in scripture. 

I hear what guys are saying. Still something is missing. There is all kinds of things that are true in this world. It is true my name is Mike and i have a birth certificate that backs that up. we Know that jesus founded a church becuase we have historical records. We say it is true the counterfiet bill was a fake, The forgery was a lie.

The poster said non authoritative human tradition. I can say it is true human tradition is not law unless it is made by those of authority.  but hat does not mean God made it law. You  understand what I am saying.

We can say that much evil has been done in the name of the church. We know its true because we have historical records.

We have reasonable evidence that Jesus walked on this earth. But we have no evidence that he sits on a heavenly throne at the right hand of the Father, yet as believers we believe it is true by faith. The Bible says with out faith it is impossible to please God, yet we have no real tangible proof that God exists other than we can understand that all we see in creations says God exists. An atheist would say we have no evidence yet by all that is seen we see God and know it is true

What we have here is carnal positional tangible truth, and spiritual truth. It impossible for the carnal mind to except spiritual truth unless he chooses to believe  it by faith. All that is of God and of Christ is faith and spirit. We believe by faith the Christ and the holy spirit were at work in the creation even though most scientists want to disprove this. Yet in all they do to take God out of the equation we see God even more .

I pray this helps

[chestertonrules]

What we have here is carnal positional tangible truth, and spiritual truth. It impossible for the carnal mind to except spiritual truth unless he chooses to believe  it by faith. All that is of God and of Christ is faith and spirit. We believe by faith the Christ and the holy spirit were at work in the creation even though most scientists want to disprove this. Yet in all they do to take God out of the equation we see God even more .

I pray this helps

Jesus built a physical Church comprised of flesh and blood.  It is both spiritual and physical, just like the Eucharist.

[Selene]

I hear what guys are saying. Still something is missing. There is all kinds of things that are true in this world. It is true my name is Mike and i have a birth certificate that backs that up. we Know that jesus founded a church becuase we have historical records. We say it is true the counterfiet bill was a fake, The forgery was a lie.

There is only one truth.  A truth is a truth, and a lie is a lie.  There are not 2 different lies because a lie is a lie.  There are not 2 different truth because a truth is a truth.  If your name is Mike, then it is based on truth.  If not, then it's not based on truth.  Jesus built a Church, and it is not just a spiritual church, but also a physical one.  That is the truth. 

[mclees8]

I hear what guys are saying. Still something is missing. There is all kinds of things that are true in this world. It is true my name is Mike and i have a birth certificate that backs that up. we Know that jesus founded a church becuase we have historical records. We say it is true the counterfiet bill was a fake, The forgery was a lie.

There is only one truth.  A truth is a truth, and a lie is a lie.  There are not 2 different lies because a lie is a lie.  There are not 2 different truth because a truth is a truth.  If your name is Mike, then it is based on truth.  If not, then it's not based on truth.  Jesus built a Church, and it is not just a spiritual church, but also a physical one.  That is the truth. 

Butthere is two different truths. And I have stated them

Jesus said , that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Marvel not that I said unto you, you must be born again of the spirit .

This is not a simple commandment but an absolute truth. How is it that you can believe in the kingdom of God which is a place you cannot see feel or touch? How is that you can believe by faith that Jesus sits at the right hand of the father on a heavenly throne,yet it is a heavenly place that one must  believe in it by faith. With out this faith the physical church is absolutely nothing but just a carnal thing.  And that is the absolute spiritual truth

have a blessed day Selene

[LightHammer]

I think I follow you Mclees8. You are saying that there are physical and spiritual truths.

Like the color of the sky verses the divinity of Jesus. Is that about right?

I agree but my point still remains that not every spiritual truth is contained in scripture. There are spiritual truths that weren't addressed at the time scripture record and therefore they are not present in its contents. Like abortion, artifical birth, the role of Mary, the communion of the saints belonging to the Church Triumphant. You have to understand that scripture ways recorded when the Church was still a baby. Christ entrusted His authorative followers to recieve the truth of the Holy Spirit and deliver it when the time came for the Church to grow and mature.

[John 10:10]

You don't accept the clear words of scripture.

You prefer a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ. 

If you can show us anywhere in Scripture where the apostles exercised God's salvation power that saved a single sinner, then you would have something in Scripture to back up what the RCC proclaims John 20:23 means.

Until then, it is the RCC that "prefers a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ."

Do you deny that the apostles spread the gospel of reconciliation?

Do you deny the confession of sins?

I'm not sure what your point is.

Jesus gave the Church HIS authority.  The Church is HIS body.

What does that leave out? 

The ground is level at the foot of the cross, and all sinners must come to Christ for themselves to receive God's saving grace.  No earthly mediator can do this for anyone else!

Are we to confess ours sins to one another and pray for others so that they may be healed (James 5:16)?  Yes, by all means!

Are we to forgive others who sin against us (Matt 6:14-15)?  Yes, by all means!

Are we to pray for the Lord of the harvest to send laborers into the fields which are white unto harvest (Matt 9:38)?  Yes, by all means!

Are we to pray without ceasing (1 Thess 5:17)?  Yes, by all means!

Is this plain enough for you? 

I say that no where recorded in Scripture after John 20:23 do any of Jesus' apostles/servants tell sinners they have God's power and authority to extend God's salvation grace to them, and that God saves them because they are acting as God's authorized mediator.  It is the RCC that prefers a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ as recorded by practice in His Word.

[John 10:10]

You don't accept the clear words of scripture.

You prefer a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ. 

If you can show us anywhere in Scripture where the apostles exercised God's salvation power that saved a single sinner, then you would have something in Scripture to back up what the RCC proclaims John 20:23 means.

Until then, it is the RCC that "prefers a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ."

Thats not fair though. You have to understand that Scripture doesn't contain every single detail of early Church history or every divine truth in existence. Yes it contains all that is necessary to uncover the truth of salvation but it is not a history book. It is for guidance.

Do you see what I am getting at? If I tell you St. Ignatius existed, studied at the feet of John and was eaten by lions for his service to the cross will you call me a liar because all his great acts and sacrifices aren't mentioned in Scripture? What if I tell you that Peter was crucified upside down? Will you spit in my face an say, "Show me in scripture where it says that!"

Of course not brother because you know that Scripture ends with Revelations, with John on the island of Patmos. God is Truth, which therefore makes Truth infinite. When you accept this you realize scripture is only a piece of what the Truth and can not possibly contain all the truths of God or His Church in its physical parameters.   

2 Tim 3:1-17

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

When one ignores both God's Word and how God's Word was put into practice as recorded in His Word, as does the RCC, then you can come up with all manner of non authoritative human traditions and beliefs that were not established by Christ.

[John 10:10]

I agree.  God's truth is not just found in the Bible.  If it is truthful that the earth rotates on its axis and revolves around the sun, then that is still truth even if it's not found in Scripture.  If it is truthful that that the earth is a planet, then that is truth even if it does not say that in the Bible.  If it is truthful that George Washington once walked on this planet, then that is still truth even if the name George Washington is not found in scripture. 

The Bible is God's truth for all who desire to enter into God's saving grace which is in Christ Jesus.  As such the Bible gives us everything sinners need to enter into God's saving grace, and for saints to walk in paths of righteousness for His Name's sake. 

It is not meant to be a science or history book giving man everything he needs to know about science and history, or for man to add all manner of non authoritative human traditions, beliefs and practices that were not established by Christ.

[rarejewel]

Papacy--right or wrong? Definitely "Wrong" in pretty everything.

[chestertonrules]

Papacy--right or wrong? Definitely "Wrong" in pretty everything.

Good luck explaining that to Jesus.

[chestertonrules]

You don't accept the clear words of scripture.

You prefer a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ. 

If you can show us anywhere in Scripture where the apostles exercised God's salvation power that saved a single sinner, then you would have something in Scripture to back up what the RCC proclaims John 20:23 means.

Until then, it is the RCC that "prefers a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ."

Do you deny that the apostles spread the gospel of reconciliation?

Do you deny the confession of sins?

I'm not sure what your point is.

Jesus gave the Church HIS authority.  The Church is HIS body.

What does that leave out? 

The ground is level at the foot of the cross, and all sinners must come to Christ for themselves to receive God's saving grace.  No earthly mediator can do this for anyone else!

Are we to confess ours sins to one another and pray for others so that they may be healed (James 5:16)?  Yes, by all means!

Are we to forgive others who sin against us (Matt 6:14-15)?  Yes, by all means!

Are we to pray for the Lord of the harvest to send laborers into the fields which are white unto harvest (Matt 9:38)?  Yes, by all means!

Are we to pray without ceasing (1 Thess 5:17)?  Yes, by all means!

Is this plain enough for you? 

I say that no where recorded in Scripture after John 20:23 do any of Jesus' apostles/servants tell sinners they have God's power and authority to extend God's salvation grace to them, and that God saves them because they are acting as God's authorized mediator.  It is the RCC that prefers a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ as recorded by practice in His Word.

It is plain enough.  Your are leaning on your own understanding and rejecting those sent by Jesus.

[John 10:10]

You don't accept the clear words of scripture.

You prefer a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ.  

If you can show us anywhere in Scripture where the apostles exercised God's salvation power that saved a single sinner, then you would have something in Scripture to back up what the RCC proclaims John 20:23 means.

Until then, it is the RCC that "prefers a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ."

Do you deny that the apostles spread the gospel of reconciliation?

Do you deny the confession of sins?

I'm not sure what your point is.

Jesus gave the Church HIS authority.  The Church is HIS body.

What does that leave out?  

The ground is level at the foot of the cross, and all sinners must come to Christ for themselves to receive God's saving grace.  No earthly mediator can do this for anyone else!

Are we to confess ours sins to one another and pray for others so that they may be healed (James 5:16)?  Yes, by all means!

Are we to forgive others who sin against us (Matt 6:14-15)?  Yes, by all means!

Are we to pray for the Lord of the harvest to send laborers into the fields which are white unto harvest (Matt 9:38)?  Yes, by all means!

Are we to pray without ceasing (1 Thess 5:17)?  Yes, by all means!

Is this plain enough for you?  

I say that no where recorded in Scripture after John 20:23 do any of Jesus' apostles/servants tell sinners they have God's power and authority to extend God's salvation grace to them, and that God saves them because they are acting as God's authorized mediator.  It is the RCC that prefers a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ as recorded by practice in His Word.

It is plain enough.  Your are leaning on your own understanding and rejecting those sent by Jesus.  

Yes, it's plain enough that one of us is unable to read and understand the plain truth of God's Word, preferring instead a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ.

I wish you all the best as you trust in "those sent by Jesus" for your salvation.

[chestertonrules]

Yes, it's plain enough that one of us is unable to read and understand the plain truth of God's Word, preferring instead a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ.

I wish you all the best as you trust in "those sent by Jesus" for your salvation.

I've made the decision that this is best.

You've made the decision to lean on your own understanding and reject these words:

John 6
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

John 20
22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

[Selene]

I hear what guys are saying. Still something is missing. There is all kinds of things that are true in this world. It is true my name is Mike and i have a birth certificate that backs that up. we Know that jesus founded a church becuase we have historical records. We say it is true the counterfiet bill was a fake, The forgery was a lie.

There is only one truth.  A truth is a truth, and a lie is a lie.  There are not 2 different lies because a lie is a lie.  There are not 2 different truth because a truth is a truth.  If your name is Mike, then it is based on truth.  If not, then it's not based on truth.  Jesus built a Church, and it is not just a spiritual church, but also a physical one.  That is the truth. 

Butthere is two different truths. And I have stated them

Jesus said , that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Marvel not that I said unto you, you must be born again of the spirit .

This is not a simple commandment but an absolute truth. How is it that you can believe in the kingdom of God which is a place you cannot see feel or touch? How is that you can believe by faith that Jesus sits at the right hand of the father on a heavenly throne,yet it is a heavenly place that one must  believe in it by faith. With out this faith the physical church is absolutely nothing but just a carnal thing.  And that is the absolute spiritual truth

have a blessed day Selene

That which is born of flesh is not interpreted to mean a lie.  Jesus came down in the flesh and that is not a lie.  And Jesus said, you must be born again of water and spirit.  Water is a physical substance. 

[John 10:10]

Yes, it's plain enough that one of us is unable to read and understand the plain truth of God's Word, preferring instead a non authoritative human tradition that was not established by Christ.

I wish you all the best as you trust in "those sent by Jesus" for your salvation.

I've made the decision that this is best.

You've made the decision to lean on your own understanding and reject these words:

John 6
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

John 20
22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

[chestertonrules]

[
At least the RCC after Vatican II recognizes that separated brethren live outside the RCC.   I'm sorry that you and others do not.  Maybe you should listen more to the RCC after 1965 than before.

I've made the decision to trust ONLY in my Lord Jesus Christ for God's salvation.  So have all who have truly received God's salvation, both inside and outside the RCC, since the Body of Christ began in Acts 2.

I will let God judge me on His salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, where I park my Christian car, and how I live my life in praise, worship, and service for Him.

You are making assumptions that have nothing to do with what I posted.

When the words of scripture don't fit your dogma, you rely on your own understanding and disregard uncomfortable passages as they appear in scripture.   However, this has nothing to do with the legitimacy of your faith, it has to do with your grasp and acceptance of the fullness of Truth.

[John 10:10]

At least the RCC after Vatican II recognizes that separated brethren live outside the RCC.   I'm sorry that you and others do not.  Maybe you should listen more to the RCC after 1965 than before.

I've made the decision to trust ONLY in my Lord Jesus Christ for God's salvation.  So have all who have truly received God's salvation, both inside and outside the RCC, since the Body of Christ began in Acts 2.

I will let God judge me on His salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, where I park my Christian car, and how I live my life in praise, worship, and service for Him.

You are making assumptions that have nothing to do with what I posted.

When the words of scripture don't fit your dogma, you rely on your own understanding and disregard uncomfortable passages as they appear in scripture.   However, this has nothing to do with the legitimacy of your faith, it has to do with your grasp and acceptance of the fullness of Truth.  

Now we are getting somewhere.  Since you are not questioning the legitimacy of my faith in God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ only, only questioning my grasp and acceptance of the fullness of truth as the RCC sees it, then let's just agree to disagree and let God judge what is the fullness of His Truth.  You are satisfied that you have the fullness of God's truth within the RCC, and I am satisfied that I have the fullness of God's Truth outside the RCC.  It's only taken hundreds of posts to get us to this stalemate.

[LightHammer]

At least the RCC after Vatican II recognizes that separated brethren live outside the RCC.   I'm sorry that you and others do not.  Maybe you should listen more to the RCC after 1965 than before.

I've made the decision to trust ONLY in my Lord Jesus Christ for God's salvation.  So have all who have truly received God's salvation, both inside and outside the RCC, since the Body of Christ began in Acts 2.

I will let God judge me on His salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ, where I park my Christian car, and how I live my life in praise, worship, and service for Him.

You are making assumptions that have nothing to do with what I posted.

When the words of scripture don't fit your dogma, you rely on your own understanding and disregard uncomfortable passages as they appear in scripture.   However, this has nothing to do with the legitimacy of your faith, it has to do with your grasp and acceptance of the fullness of Truth.  

Now we are getting somewhere.  Since you are not questioning the legitimacy of my faith in God's salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ only, only questioning my grasp and acceptance of the fullness of truth as the RCC sees it, then let's just agree to disagree and let God judge what is the fullness of His Truth.  You are satisfied that you have the fullness of God's truth within the RCC, and I am satisfied that I have the fullness of God's Truth outside the RCC.  It's only taken hundreds of posts to get us to this stalemate.

Well you truly are a dense one if you didn't know that they accepted this view from before you were even apart of this thread. Like I said you obviously have no interest in understanding our catholic brethren. It comes as no surprise. Most protestants are like this.

So passes yet another one of the continuous waves of bias spreading falsehoods and arrogance.

Before you go I would like to ask why you think Scripture and the Church are not in perfect harmony. How exactly does the Church contradict Scripture?