bad arguments against polygyny

[Memphis Dwight]

One of the pathetic reasons that the plural wife haters give for their belief is that God made one man and one woman.  But going on this would mean that if a man's wife died, he couldn't marry again because he has used up his quota.  After all, God made only one woman for one man. 

[Seriousseeker]

That might be true in theory, but it is a lame explanation for the real truth of Holy Scripture about the subject.

- Seriousseeker

[chosenone]

memphis, if you are so sure that having more than one wife is Gods will,  then why are you ALWAYS coming on here starting up posts about it, and trying to justify it? People who are do this are usually unsure and therefore need to always be arguing what they think is their case. This shows, in my opinion, that you are anything but sure that this is what Gods wants, but is, in fact, what YOU want. (Which is also how is started in the Mormon church).
You mention plural wife haters, no, that isn't the case, no one mentions 'hate' ever, its just that 99.99% of Christians know what God says about it, and therefore stick to one wife/husband as Gods original intention always was(and is).

[Memphis Dwight]

I don't know where or how you come up with the idea that one that post frequently must really be only trying to convince himself.  That is quite a leap of imagination.  

In all honesty, I've never been more convinced that a group of spiritual thugs started hijacking the church back in the first century.  St Paul speaks of them in Colossians 2:
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

That voluntary humility is the depriving of the body of food, and/or being a celibate, thinking it will make you closer to God.  It is the ascetic mindset and it crept in and it hated all forms of marriage and from that there was the eventual hatred towards plural wives.  

[chosenone]

Its that you post frequently about this subject over and over again. If you were at peace about it you wouldnt need to. The fact that we all know that Gods desire is for one wife and one husband, and always has been, seems to make you unsure and hense the need to keep on trying to defend your beliefs.
I love marriage and so does God. However He does say that each woman should have her own husband and each man his own wife. Pretty clear really. Why not be faithful to your wife instead of thinking of cheating on her and being unfaithful.   The only reason why a vert tiny number of mormons have more than one wife is because their leader already had had many women/girls and so thought up an idea that God told him that it was the right thing to do(how very conveinient for him ), and even more covenient was the fact that the women were told that unless they agreed they wouldnt go to heaven(manipulation and control).

[Memphis Dwight]

I love marriage and so does God. However He does say that each woman should have her own husband and each man his own wife. Pretty clear really.

I completely agree. 
Here is Kody Brown. He has four wives. 
Here is one of his wives, Meri and her daughter, Mariah.  Meri is Kody's own wife and Kody is Meri's own husband. 

And here is another of Kody's wives, Christine and the children they have had together. 
Christine is Kody's own wife and Kody is Christine's own husband. 

You can find out more about the Brown's at TLC's Sister Wives.
http://tlc.discovery.com/tv/sister-wives/meet-the-browns.html

[Scarecrow]

"Gods original intention always was(and is)"

This is an argument I see frequently that bothers me. There are two VERY serious problems with this argument: 1) the individual making the statement either inadvertently or intentionally is claiming to know the mind and will of God, and 2) that God is incapable of communicating his will to us much less accomplishing it.

If it "always was" "God's original intention" that a man should have only one wife then He would have made it very clear. All it would take is one statement that a man should only have one wife. But there is no such statement, and in fact the Lord praises numerous men that had multiple wives. We know what sin is because we are told what is sinful. Leviticus chapter 18 specifies sexual sins, which do not include polygyny.

Where the modern churches fail is that they don't even understand what adultery is based upon the scriptures; rather they form their doctrine around secular definitions and therefore have to make false assertions in order to explain their false doctrines.

The "God only gave Adam one wife" argument is a logical fallacy. Before the fall Adam was naked, put in the garden to tend and till it, had one wife, and commanded to be fruitful and multiply. Circumstances do not dictate law, if they did then wearing clothing, participating in an occupation other than agriculture, having more than one wife, and not producing children would be sins. Clearly the absurdity of such an argument can now be seen.

The truth is that a number of false doctrines along with Roman culture and law drove polygyny underground. I am happy to see it becoming more widely accepted due to the fact that if it is practiced according to biblical principles everyone involved benefits.

[Debrah]

As a women I am offended, as a Christian I am dumb founded, how can anyone read the bible and truly believe polygamy is ordained by God!

When Jesus and the apostles taught on marriage never once did they use the word wives, only wife.  This discussion is so foolish and of Satan I will debate any further.

"And Pharisees came up to him (Jesus) and tested him by asking,

"Is it lawful to divorce one's wife (not wives) for any cause?

[Scarecrow]

"As a women I am offended"

Sorry my intent was not to offend you, but rather to enlighten you...

"as a Christian I am dumb founded"

This is not surprising. Most "Christians" I come across have this same type of reaction to the truth when exposed to it...

"how can anyone read the bible and truly believe polygamy is ordained by God!"

How can anyone read the Bible and believe that polygamy is sinful? I have read 5 different Bible translations and have yet to find one man repenting for having more than one wife as if it were sinful, a prophet confronting a man for having more than one wife as if it were sinful, or God himself addressing a man for having more than one wife as if it were sinful; in fact what I find is numerous men that had more than one wife being praised by God...

"When Jesus and the apostles taught on marriage never once did they use the word wives, only wife."

The same word is used (ish-shaw', naw-sheem') in the old testament for wife, wives, woman, and women interchangeably, which is also true for the new testament word (goo-nay'). You will realize that your statement is ridiculous once you understand the original language and our translations of it...

Exodus 20:17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's."

If you assume a man can have only one wife, then according to Exodus 20:17 a man may also have only one house, male servant, female servant, ox, donkey, or anything a man can posses. I hope you are understanding the error used in the "one wife" doctrine of the church. Exodus could have just as easily been translated:

Exodus 20:17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's homes; you shall not covet your neighbor's wives, or his male servants, or his female servants, or his oxen, or his donkeys, or anything that is your neighbor's."

"This discussion is so foolish and of Satan I will debate any further."

We will miss you...or did you mean that you would debate further?

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I reject you from being a priest to me. And since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

Open your mind or you will not obtain knowledge. Satan does not want you to understand the Word of God, and the Word of God will be like the seed scattered on the path, eaten up by the birds.

"And Pharisees came up to him (Jesus) and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife (not wives) for any cause?

[chosenone]

I love marriage and so does God. However He does say that each woman should have her own husband and each man his own wife. Pretty clear really.

I completely agree. 
Here is Kody Brown. He has four wives. 
Here is one of his wives, Meri and her daughter, Mariah.  Meri is Kody’s own wife and Kody is Meri’s own husband. 

And here is another of Kody’s wives, Christine and the children they have had together. 
Christine is Kody’s own wife and Kody is Christine’s own husband. 

You can find out more about the Brown’s at TLC’s Sister Wives.
http://tlc.discovery.com/tv/sister-wives/meet-the-browns.html

each wife has not got her own husband in that case. Each is sharing a man who is actually only married to the first woman he married anyway. They do not have their own husband, as the Bible says they should.

[marc]

One of the pathetic reasons that the plural wife haters give for their belief is that God made one man and one woman.  But going on this would mean that if a man's wife died, he couldn't marry again because he has used up his quota.  After all, God made only one woman for one man. 

Just a correction--the hate isn't directed at the plural wives.

btw, there are no good arguments for polygyny, just as there are no good arguments for slavery. They're one and the same.

[chosenone]

"Gods original intention always was(and is)"

This is an argument I see frequently that bothers me. There are two VERY serious problems with this argument: 1) the individual making the statement either inadvertently or intentionally is claiming to know the mind and will of God, and 2) that God is incapable of communicating his will to us much less accomplishing it.

If it "always was" "God's original intention" that a man should have only one wife then He would have made it very clear. All it would take is one statement that a man should only have one wife. But there is no such statement, and in fact the Lord praises numerous men that had multiple wives. We know what sin is because we are told what is sinful. Leviticus chapter 18 specifies sexual sins, which do not include polygyny.

Where the modern churches fail is that they don't even understand what adultery is based upon the scriptures; rather they form their doctrine around secular definitions and therefore have to make false assertions in order to explain their false doctrines.

The "God only gave Adam one wife" argument is a logical fallacy. Before the fall Adam was naked, put in the garden to tend and till it, had one wife, and commanded to be fruitful and multiply. Circumstances do not dictate law, if they did then wearing clothing, participating in an occupation other than agriculture, having more than one wife, and not producing children would be sins. Clearly the absurdity of such an argument can now be seen.

The truth is that a number of false doctrines along with Roman culture and law drove polygyny underground. I am happy to see it becoming more widely accepted due to the fact that if it is practiced according to biblical principles everyone involved benefits.

Read Matthew 19v4-16, Jesus makes it perfectly clear that Gods intention was for one man to marry one woman. Having more than one wife happened after the fall, but God took us back through Jesus to his original intention and desire for the 2 to become 1. The NT is perfectly clear that one husband is to have one wife (always singular).

[chosenone]

As a women I am offended, as a Christian I am dumb founded, how can anyone read the bible and truly believe polygamy is ordained by God!

When Jesus and the apostles taught on marriage never once did they use the word wives, only wife.  This discussion is so foolish and of Satan I will debate any further.

"And Pharisees came up to him (Jesus) and tested him by asking,

“Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife (not wives) for any cause?”

4 Jesus answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife (not wives), and the two shall become one flesh’? (how can a man have one flesh, with many women)

6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
------------
There are many other scriptures passages that support one husband, with one wife.  may God open your eyes to this Godly covenant of marriage.

Amen debrah
The thing is that if a man wants to have another woman living with him, he has to try and justify it if he is a christian. I have heard Christians trying to justify the most amazing and unbiblical things, but that doesnt make what they do right. If any man sleeps with any women who isnt his one and only true wife, he is committing fornication and is being unfaithful to the wife of his youth, who he is told to be faithful to.

[Scarecrow]

"each wife has not got her own husband in that case. Each is sharing a man who is actually only married to the first woman he married anyway. They do not have their own husband, as the Bible says they should."

Again understanding the language and the use thereof is important. It is indicating that you should have your own wife, not your neighbor's wife, and your own husband, not the husband of your neighbor. In either case it would be adultery. Another interesting note is that this entire section of scripture pertains to fornication, that it is better to take a wife or husband then to commit fornication.

1 Corinthians 7:2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

According to the scriptures if a married man sleeps with an unmarried woman (such as a prostitute or in the event of a "fling") he commits fornication, NOT adultery. This being the case the man is told to take another wife rather than participate in fornication which IS sinful. If you wish to argue that a man having more than one wife is indeed sinful I will require you to provide chapter and verse containing such a statement.

Also, "marriage licenses" that the government is now using to control and regulate marriage are a rather recent invention...therefore Kody may have only one "legal" wife, but if he took his vows with another woman before God she too is his wife in the eyes of God.

[Scarecrow]

"I have heard Christians trying to justify the most amazing and unbiblical things, but that doesnt make what they do right."

Absolutely; here is just one recent example of what you speak of. There is no biblical basis for this statement whatsoever:

"there are no good arguments for polygyny, just as there are no good arguments for slavery. They're one and the same."

The ignorance (lack of knowledge) of this statement is from a lack of understanding of most biblical "slavery" and the correct practice of polygyny.

A biblical slave would often be the equivalent of an employee today. "Man stealers" are condemned to a maximum penalty of death by the scriptures...enough said? Most of us today only understand slavery form the time when the Muslim "Man stealers" sold men (primarily from Africa) as slaves to the early colonists of the United States as well as others around the world.

We have laws in place to protect from under aged marriage and abuse which are the things most people think are being practiced in polygamous homes. Those things are illegal no matter how you practice marriage, and have no religious exclusion. Therefore if consenting adults wish to participate in a polygamous marriage who are you to tell them that they cannot? Perhaps you should consider what Martin Luther had to say:

"I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter.

[larry2]

We have laws in place to protect from under aged marriage and abuse which are the things most people think are being practiced in polygamous homes. Those things are illegal no matter how you practice marriage, and have no religious exclusion. Therefore if consenting adults wish to participate in a polygamous marriage who are you to tell them that they cannot? Perhaps you should consider what Martin Luther had to say:[/size]

We also have laws in place against polygamous marriages.

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1878 that plurality of wives (polygamy), as originally permitted by the Mormon religion, violated criminal law and was not defensible as an exercise of religious liberty. The Latter-day Saints renounced polygamy in 1890.

http://www.usmarriagelaws.com/search/united_states/polygamy/index.shtml

Romans 13:1  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Romans 13:2  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
 
The Bible is saying in this country that polygamy is a sin in the fact that it is against the ordinance of God whether it was in effect only yesterday. Bigamy laws also can also be broken in these cases.

[chosenone]

What has martin Luther got to do with anything? We have Jesus, God son, telling us what Gods intention always was, and is, we certainly dont need anyone else to change that. We have Paul telling us that each man should have his own wife(singular) and each woman her own husband(singular). We have Paul saying that we are to be faithful, and to keep the marriage bed(singular) pure. We are told not to committ fornication or adultery. We are told to be faithful to the wife (Singular) of our youth. To let her (not their) breasts satisfy you at all times.
If God saw fit to give Adam only one wife, then why is it that a tiny number of people think that they know better than God?. I believe that it is because they WANT to have more women so they CHOOSE not to see it. 

[marc]

I'm a little old to comfortably read blue text on a blue background, so excuse me if I misunderstand what you said.

First, I said nothing about Biblical slavery, and you'd be mistaken if you think I am ignorant about what it was like and how it differed from more recent forms. That's a red herring anyway.

Second, the concept of multiple wives is based on the idea that women are property. Memphis D admits this on another thread. That makes this the equivalent of slavery.

Third, if someone wants to deny that this is a control situation by pointing out "sister wives" (actually wives and adulterous mistresses, as another poster correctly mentioned) are treated well, I would point out that many slaves were also treated 'well' in that they were given some of the trappings of freedom without ever becoming free. I might mention the way that Jefferson treated many of his slaves, letting them work for wages, for instance, without ever giving up ownership.

Fourth, the fact remains that polygyny frequently leads to 'marrying' underage girls. It's all part of the ownership mentality. And your mention of legal prohibitions in this regard is pretty ironic, given the legal prohibition against polygyny itself.

Fifth, knowledge, not ignorance, is what makes people think this is disgusting.

[Scarecrow]

"We also have laws in place against polygamous marriages.

[Memphis Dwight]

First off all, lets get one thing straight right now!  Indignation does not constitute a counter argument.  Just being offended does not counter the serious methodology put forth by God's servants in defending the righteous state of marriage.   Marriage is marriage whether or not a man has one wife or hundred wives. 

Christ never said anything about it being God's intention that a man having only one wife.  Christ was condemning the practice that arose from those so twisted upon monogamy-only where they believed that getting rid of one wife in favor of another was acceptable.  If they wanted another wife, they were obligated to provide for any other wives they already had.  That is what Christ taught!

[Memphis Dwight]

Romans 13 tells the faithful berean discerner of the scriptures that the role of government is in punishing those that do evil.  Marriage is not evil but honourable, Heb 13:4.
Government is not authorized to persecute those that practice the God ordained institution. 

After the war was over, each soldier was instructed to return to his OWN country.  By chooseone's methodology, only one soldier could return to the United States, only one soldier could return to Britain, etc.   

[Memphis Dwight]

God never condemned slavery.  He condemned kidnapping a man from his home country.

[Memphis Dwight]

Its time to lock this thread!  Because I don't see the Monogamites coming up with anything new.  Same old same old.  
"each man have his own wife, not wives"
"two shall become one, not three shall become one"
"polygamy is against the law and christians have to obey EVERY manmade law"
"polygamy causes problems"
"polygamy is chauvenistic and God is against that"  LOL
"elders are to be the husband of one wife"

Have I covered them all?

[phoebe]

Its time to lock this thread!  Because I don't see the Monogamites coming up with anything new.  Same old same old. 
"each man have his own wife, not wives"
"two shall become one, not three shall become one"
"polygamy is against the law and christians have to obey EVERY manmade law"
"polygamy causes problems"
"polygamy is chauvenistic and God is against that"  LOL
"elders are to be the husband of one wife"

Have I covered them all?

Oh, memphis, you make me .  You want to lock the thread?   

You want to legalize God's words to suit your fleshly desires rather than understand the heart of the words toward pleasing God.  In the beginning, polygamy was not so.  Jesus takes us back to the beginning.  Yet you want to follow blessed-but-sin-filled men like Solomon, David, even Abraham?  Polygamy, i.e., mulltiple wives, as well as "concubines" of old are simply legal forms of female bondage/slavery for the sole purpose of satisfying man's fleshly desires rather than please God.  Women were property then.  Not so here, now.
 
Go ahead, break the law.  Be unfaithful to your wife.  Get all the wives you want.  Break God's Heart.  If you can't be faithful to one wife, can you be faithful to One God?  Or will a plethora of wives become your god?

But don't try to silence those who believe God's desire for humankind is one of monogamy.

[larry2]

I have repeatedly asked for the chapter and verse where a man is shown to be sinful if he has more than one wife. All I ever get is the same old diatribes with worn out false interpretations.

Maybe if you would pay attention to the information given you, you would understand. The moment you want to rationalize a law as being irrelevant because of its intent, you lose credibility. When God says something in Romans Chapter Thirteen regulating our conduct in such cases as polygamy we are to obey those laws unless they be against God. And even then Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego all paid a price for not obeying the law.

Next you'll likely tell me that Joseph Smith had reason to add to the word of God when it is plainly stated in Colossians 1:25, "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God." Have you an idea what that means? Strong's Concordance defines that "make full, to fill up, or to complete. Guess what? Here comes good old Joseph saying in "2 Nephi 29:9-10  . . Because I have spoken one word, ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another: for my work is not yet finished. . -  (10)  Wherefore, because that ye have a bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written. Am I going to believe Paul or Joseph Smith?

On top of that we read in Gal 1:8, "If we or an angel preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached, let him be accursed."

The finished word which was hidden from other ages is now being given to you by Jesus Christ through Paul whom it was revealed to, so don't add any other doctrines to it. Do you really believe a real angel of heaven (Moroni? hmmm?) of heaven would give something that contradicted the word of God?

[Memphis Dwight]

Phoebe says, "Jesus takes us back to the beginning."  By this I assume you are referring to the marriage-divorce dialog?
Christ reminded them of the original intention of marital permanence.  By this, He is reinforcing righteousness of the duty that the man has to every wife.  He didn't say that it was adultery only if the man put away his FIRST wife.  The condemnation applies to every wife that a man has.  If a man puts away his 4th wife and marries another he commits adultery.

[Thankfulldad]

Its time to lock this thread!  Because I don't see the Monogamites coming up with anything new.  Same old same old.  
"each man have his own wife, not wives"
"two shall become one, not three shall become one"
"polygamy is against the law and christians have to obey EVERY manmade law"
"polygamy causes problems"
"polygamy is chauvenistic and God is against that"  LOL
"elders are to be the husband of one wife"

Have I covered them all?

You would have 2, 3 or more honey due list's...
You would have 2, 3 or more wives with head aches...
You would have 2, 3 or more head aches yourself...
You would have 2, 3 or more love languages to learn...
You would have 2, 3 or more emotional needs to meet...
You would have 2, 3 or more sexual needs to meet...
You would have 2, 3 or more spiritual needs to meet...
You would have 2, 3 or more financial needs to meet...unless you are a bum and expect your wives to work...

Shall I go on...

Get with God's program and find a little peace in your life with one wife.

[Memphis Dwight]

Larry2,
I'm not a mormon.  Abraham was not a mormon.  David was not a mormon. Jacob was not a mormon.  Moses was not a mormon. In fact, none of the Israelites, who were so polygamous that the average family had 54 children, were mormon. 

I really feel as if you are trying to draw attention away from your lack of biblical evidence against plural wives by trying to attach the mormon stigma.  Am I right?

[Thankfulldad]

Larry2,
I'm not a mormon.  Abraham was not a mormon.  David was not a mormon. Jacob was not a mormon.  Moses was not a mormon. In fact, none of the Israelites, who were so polygamous that the average family had 54 children, were mormon. 

I really feel as if you are trying to draw attention away from your lack of biblical evidence against plural wives by trying to attach the mormon stigma.  Am I right?

The mormon church has outlawed polygamy...there is no attachment.

[Memphis Dwight]

I've done a superb job in summing up the weak foundation upon which the doctrines of the Monogamites rests.

[Thankfulldad]

I've done a superb job in summing up the weak foundation upon which the doctrines of the Monogamites rests.

Excellent...here is another pat on your back; go then and enjoy!

[Scarecrow]

"In the beginning, polygamy was not so."

Wow...new and improved doctrine just like some kind of laundry detergent. The particular verse you are referring to is about divorce, from the beginning it (divorce) was not so (not allowed). Jesus is talking about when Moses "allowed" men to issue their wives certificates of divorce due to the hardness of their hearts. This has nothing whatsoever to do with polygamy - nice dodge. Jesus also stated that if a man marries a divorced woman he commits adultery - does that sound to you like God recognizes a man made divorce?

"Maybe if you would pay attention to the information given you, you would understand."

I have read every line...and in your reply you still fail to provide the information I requested...show me just one verse where it says that it is sinful for a man to have more than one wife; which therefore condemns about 40 men in the scriptures (most of which God himself praised - Abraham - David - Gideon - etc...). Perhaps it would behoove you to consider the scriptures and arguments that have been presented. (I too am not Mormon nor have I ever been one. In fact I too defended the monogamy doctrine until I took it upon myself to study adultery.)

[larry2]

Larry2,
I'm not a mormon.  Abraham was not a mormon.  David was not a mormon. Jacob was not a mormon.  Moses was not a mormon. In fact, none of the Israelites, who were so polygamous that the average family had 54 children, were mormon. 

I really feel as if you are trying to draw attention away from your lack of biblical evidence against plural wives by trying to attach the mormon stigma.  Am I right?

I'm not attempting to draw away from or justify plural marriage. I stated as an answer to Scarecrow that plural marriage is outlawed in our land; like it or not. That makes it against the ordinance of God in this country and you can argue with God all you want to.

Romans 13.1   Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Romans 13.2  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

[marc]

God never condemned slavery.  He condemned kidnapping a man from his home country.

This should be made into your signature. That way everyone will be warned about just what you are.


You suggest locking the thread; that would simply be sweeping away the web. I'd prefer getting rid of the spider.

[marc]

"We also have laws in place against polygamous marriages.