What's So Great About Capitalism?

[terry]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Sep. 30 2002,5:33)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]So Dante, should an army invade the US to end abortion?  Would you like bombs to fall on top of your head for a good cause?[/quote]
B.H.,
I don't know of anyone else on this board, but I'd be willing to give my life over this issue.
terry

[lucybelle]

Kari and PatriciaRedstone,

No Thank YOU!!! hahaha.

Actually, I think I'm bowing out of the argument, for now.  I'm tired and have other irritations going on.  

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why do you vote to have your money taken away and tied up in the government doing no one any good at all?[/quote]
Quint, while I'd agree that private enterprise and individuals can do some things better-that is, more efficiently-than goverment, surely you don't believe that government does no one any good at all?  

Would we be better off with out government spending on public works?  Should each of us build our own roads and bridges?  Should private companies be responsible for flood control or fire fighting?  Should we go replace our police departments with private security firms?  What about scientific research that isn't market-driven-should we give up the study of astronomy and sub-atomic physics because no private company wants to sponsor it?

How about the chronically ill and the disabled?  Should special needs children receive no education if their parents aren't well-to-do?  

How about the FDA?  Meat inspectors? The Coast Guard?  The CDC?  What about the highway safety folks?  The patent office and the weather people?  Customs?  Corrections?  Mine inspectors?  The FCC?

It is easy to say all government, or all taxation, or all liberals, or all conservatives, are bad.  It is much harder to come up with constructive ways to improve the system.

By the way, over the last 100 years, has government increased dramatically?  Has taxation increased dramatically?

Over the last years, hasn't poverty decreased as well?  Hasn't our lifespan increased and our overall health improved as well?  Hasn't our technology increased?  

Hmm...could there be a connection there?

K.

By the way, here's a fair summation of what I have against most Republican ideology:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?
Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called? --James 2:6-7      
Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you, cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.  You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.  You have condemned and put to death the righteous man; he does not resist you. --James 5:4-6
[/quote]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Oct. 04 2002,04:28)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Susie,
Your statement about buying more stuff is an important concept in ending poverty. Let me show you how buying more stuff helps the poor. Suppose due to tax relief you suddenly make $500 a month more. Since you are a Christian, you will likely give some of this to the church. But, since you have a family and needs you will likely buy more stuff. When you buy this stuff you are putting money back into the economy and boosting corporations. You have just created a job for someone in need. The corporations stock price goes up and the shareholders receive nice size dividends. They take their dividends and buy stuff. More jobs are created, companies grow, stock prices grow, wealth in general grows. This begins to have a domino effect until there is a huge demand for workers to manufacture stuff. Consequently, more banks open, people need more services, and the economy becomes huge. People go out to eat, they travel, go to the theatre. The more they do, the more the economy grows. See how this works? You are in control of what happens to your money while ending poverty.

Now, look at $500 in taxes. You pay your money to the federal government through a govt beuracracy that manufactures nothing and has no market worth. It sits in a 0 interest account while politicians fight over how to spend it. Meanwhile they vote themselves a raise. Once the money is determined to be used for helping the poor, studies paid for by the govt must be conducted to make sure it is paid out fairly. The $500 goes through numerous agencies without market worth while paying the employees of these agencies who manufacture nothing. Finally it reaches the community worth about $50. No jobs have been created and no companies have grown. Worse yet, the money has shrunk, not grown.

Many people think the best way to help those in need is by raising taxes to give to the poor. Please understand that when this occurs, no one profits. Not the payers nor the payees. Actually, taxes are extremely damaging to the economy because they take money out of the economy. The only reason why we pay taxes, is to keep politicians in power.[/quote]
Quint, are you an economy major?  That was good.

Kevin[/quote]
Kevin,
Thanks. I was an economics major at one point, but switched to Business. I now work in human resources which is the best of both worlds.

[marc]

I don't know a thing about Kaballah, whether the Clinton's have ever heard of it even or whether it is any more of a real threat than the tre-lateral commission or Mothman, but a visit to the site of the man who wrote the article found that he also warns of the "occult" dangers of Harry Potter.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Sep. 24 2002,4:25)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]No disrespect meant, but why would it not be discrimination if congress vetoed presidential nominees because they were pro-gay rights, pro-limited abortion, evolution in schools, ect.[/quote]

It is discrimination.  Both sides have done it, and let's face it, it's not particularly honorable of either.

Both 'conservative' and 'liberal' politics have given us long-term disasters.  And I think all of us are to blame.  We demand easy answers to hard problems and so we deserve the junk we get.

It's our duty to weigh ideas against God's will as best we can , and vote the way we see to be right.  

Also, maybe not calling each other names would be good thing for Christians to do.


Kari.[/quote]
kmv,

You are a wise and discerning person.

[Richard]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Richard, I think we are in agreement.[/quote]
Patricia,
I'll have to take your word for it 'cause I'm not sure I understood the rest of your post. ;) I've told you before, I'm not very deep.
I do know one thing though - Money is not the problem.  The love of money (or wealth) is the problem.

I did not intend to turn this into a discussion about the relative value of art.  I don't know anything about art.  I was simply refuting the assertion by B.H. that everyone should receive monetary compensation relative to their labor regardless of the value of what they produce.

And at the risk of repeating myself.......the best way to influence what society values is to introduce as many people as we can to the Love of Jesus Christ.

Richard

I wanted to make something clear to some of you who have misunderstood what I wrote yesterday. I in no way stated that poor people should be ignored,or that we should thumb our noses on the way to the car dealership. In fact, I specifically stated that since you are a Christian, you will most likely take care of their needs first. I then went on to talk about other money that would then be going to the government. The comparison was only about what happens to the money in the hands of politicians verses the free markets. Seeing as how this is a Christian web site no one is making an argument against helping the poor. The argument is about how one can do more. I would like my money to arrive to the poor $1 for $1. Not ten cents on the dollar while my representatives are buying new mansions.

And while we're talking about Christian giving, there are very specific scriptures about how this is to be done. I don't have my bible right now but I can basically tell you from memory. The poor and the widows are to be taken care of by their families first. If their families can't take care of them, the church is to help next. God intended on people to take care of each other on a personal level by families and church. When we hand this over to the government, we have specifically violated the very thing he instructed us to do to begin with. My guess is because families can also provide emotional support and love that the government can't. This personal giving also gives those in the church the chance to evangelize that the government takes away by welfare. Do you know how many people on welfare never set foot into a church because they don't have to? The government completely cuts out the opportunity to share the goodness of Christ by this system. They totally undermine the responsibilities of families and church thus making people cold. I'm not sure why some vote for this system, other than they don't understand all the pitfalls.
q

[Richard]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]That is why capitalism is false, even if it is the most successful  economic system in the eyes of the world.  It does not pay people according to their labor per see, but what a bunch of people's whimsy in that given society tells them it is worth.[/quote]
B.H.,
If I labor really hard at building sand castles which get washed out by the tide every day, will you pay me according to my labor?


Richard

[lucybelle]

Skip,

We are representatives of Christ, but sometimes we are extremely poor examples of who Christ was and what he represented.  Bad behavior by Christians doesn't correctly show the world who and what Christ was.  That is why it becomes difficult for Christians, though still sinful, to have a genuine dialogue with many people in the world who were burned by so-called Christian behavior.  I have spent a lot of hours just trying to SHOW people that Christians aren't all hypocritical and evil.  It's a lot of work.

So when I say that Christian behavior led to the Stonewall incident and the gay-rights movement, I mean that people who identify themselves as Christians, but are not demonstrating the love of Christ, contributed to what is going on right now.

[terry]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Oct. 01 2002,05:56)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Terry
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I don't see the comparison at all between national defense and the killing of unborn children. One is innocent, the other is done when innocent lives are in danger. [/quote]

I guess I'm somehow not being clear enough.  My point, as best I can recall, was that these are not simple considerations.  For example, if we bomb Iraq, innocent people will die.  Including children.  Including the unborn.  Period.  Are unborn Iraqi lives precious to you?  If so, then you cannot say the Republican stance is always the moral one.  

I don't think that can be any clearer, if you really want to understand.  

In fact, if I were to use the simplistic reasoning many of our posters have used, I could say that, if you, Terry, vote for Bush, you've voted to kill unborn children.  And it would be just as true as what Doyle or Danny have said.

You don't have to agree with the choices I make, just try to be open-minded enough to understand that another Christian just might have reached another conclusion.

And please, could we quit arguing points that no one has made?  

Skip, doesn't your citation about not bearing the punishment for another's sin really make the case against bombing children in Iraq to get revenge on Saddam?

Admin (Lee?) [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]B.H.

Your answer to Dante, ridiculous. Comparing a war against armies to take a dictator, killer, and psycopath out of power to bombing U.S. citizens to stop abortion??

That is a very illogical comparison. It's like comparing apples to oranges.[/quote]
Actually, though BH may forget his manners sometimes, this is a perfectly valid comparison.  A war against a psycopath dictator is going to result in dead innocents, just as pro-life bombings would and do.  

PatriciaRedstone-No, thank you & Lucybelle!

Kari.[/quote]
Kari,
If I have argued a point that no one has made, please show me. My main point was that there is no official platform for the Democrats or Republicans stating that we will be prowar and we will invade foreign countries...even though both parties supported the invasion into Afghanistan 100%. Just remember, the democratic president prior to Bush launched plenty of missles as well.
terry

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (terry @ Sep. 30 2002,6:01)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]So Dante, should an army invade the US to end abortion?  Would you like bombs to fall on top of your head for a good cause?[/quote]
B.H.,
I don't know of anyone else on this board, but I'd be willing to give my life over this issue.
terry[/quote]
But what about your family's?

Did I not even make a little dent when you and I had our debate on abortion a while back?  Geesh.

[marc]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Marc,
When was the last time you got a job from a poor guy? [/quote]

Curious.  Did you read my post, or did you just pick a reply at random?  I ask this because it has nothing at all to do with what I said.

Do you ever deal with have-nots directly?  Do you live in their midst?  Or do you simply pass them by and say "get a job"?

When you live in their world, it makes a difference.  I know.  This has been my world much of my life.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (patriciaredstone @ Oct. 09 2002,3:34)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I wonder if these are aware that there are witches who call themselves Christian and study the Bible? Knowing this, do you consider yourself a accomplice in the dark arts?[/quote]
Can one be a Christian and a witch at the same time? One cannot serve two masters for he will hate one and love the other. Knowing this, I am not an accomplice to the magic arts as I do not share the body of Christ with someone who is split between masters.

[Lacy]

B.H.

"There was one time in my life. and I can not remember when, I was actually proven wrong on something, and maybe I just missed the answer." B.H.

Well, B.H. maybe this the answer as to why no one wants to answer your points above; what chance would us mortals have with an infallible infidel? And perhaps it's because you are so arrogant and forceful in your manipulative demands that people just don't want to communicate with you.

Secondly, I told you three times that I didn't want to debate with you, that I don't want you annoying letters sent to me personally but would prefer staying on the board. And once I told you that I didn't want to go with you to the "Infidel board" to debats Jesus with you. My God man, what part of NO don't you understand?

Then you presume to impose a manditory questionaire upon me as if I am under divine compulsion to answer your quaries. I am not interested in either your questions or in answering them. And I certainly have neither responsibility nor accountibility to you.

You say, "So off to the infidel board." And, like the good traitor to our board that you are, you will give all the infidels my address so they too can harass me. I gave my address hoping to communicate with brothers and sisters in Christ. You are the only one who has used it. If I had had any idea that there were such characters as you on this Christian board, board, I certainly would not have given it.

I'M SURPRISED THAT THE MANAGERS OF THIS BOARD WOULD PERMIT YOU TO BE SO DISRESPECULUL AND CONTEMPTABLE.
Isn't this a Christian board? And isn't there a code of conduct?

When I was young, B. H., an elderly retired school teacher came to me after hearing one of my sermone, and said, "Brother Lacy, I'm glad I am not as young as you are." And in those days and uncle said about me,"Lacy has a lot to learn."

B.H., I don't understand why you are so pretentious, presumptuous, persistent and argumentive, unless it is the fact that you are young and have a lot to learn.

Cherish this post, B. H., or despise it, but be assured that this is the last word you will ever hear from me. And if you call I will not answer. I have better things to do with my precious time.

Lacy

kmv,
I would assume that you are pro-abortion because you stated that you are a card carrying liberal. The Democratic stand on abortion in the 21st century is that abortion should be available on demand throughout all nine months of pregnancy. It should superceed the rights of parents to consent to their own children's healthcare, it should be fully paid for by taxpayers, it is a procedure that medical students must partake in order to graduate. Is this what your carrying a card for? How about same sex marriages and gay adoptions? When I read the parties platforms it is apparent that we are in a cultural war. Voting is DEFINITELY along the lines of morality (at least nationally) and I honestly don't see how someone can vote for the things mentioned and still profess to be a Christian.

[kmv]

Skip-

Lucybelle is right on this.  The Stonewall incident WAS the birth of the gay-rights movement.  Without the actions of the police who beat those men, who knows if such the movement would have formed?

As to [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]the only impact Christians will have upon sinners is either to turn them away from sin (and to Christ) or be rejected by the sinner [/quote]
is this born out by scripture?  I recall Christ telling us that if we cause another to sin, it'd be better if we were thrown into the sea.  

Do you truly believe that someone who calls himself a Christian cannot turn a sinner away from the Lord?   Imagine someone who doesn't know Christ.  He knows there is something missing from his life, but hasn't found it yet.  He comes across this website, looking for that 'grace' he's heard about.  And maybe he reads Doyle's commentary.  Or one of those nice dead Iraqi jokes.  Do you believe, honestly, that they'll have no impact?  

I'm not just trying to win an argument here, I'm trying desperately to somehow make us see how much our actions can harm the cause of Christ.  It's not sufficient to just pat ourselves on the back for being 'graceminded' and better, therefore, than those legalistic folks.  We have to actually, in truth, everyday, show the LOVE that Jesus has for all the lost.  And we absolutely cannot do that when we despise each other.

Kari.

[terry]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Sep. 30 2002,6:05)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]So Dante, should an army invade the US to end abortion?  Would you like bombs to fall on top of your head for a good cause?[/quote]
B.H.,
I don't know of anyone else on this board, but I'd be willing to give my life over this issue.
terry[/quote]
But what about your family's?

Did I not even make a little dent when you and I had our debate on abortion a while back?  Geesh.[/quote]
I thought you were prolife now! What happened? ;) Of course my family too.

[Skip]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Skip, doesn't your citation about not bearing the punishment for another's sin really make the case against bombing children in Iraq to get revenge on Saddam?
--Kari[/quote]

Sorry, no.

As I read it, it applies directly to the individual sinner, and is not applicable to governments. I had originally used it in reference to the homosexuality topic a few pages back.

I noticed that your remark looks a lot like the news that I often endure --
Since when is the military target in Iraq children?
...Though the Western world is doing a great job of killing off its children without any outsiders bombing them.

Though probably children will be killed, since in the latest strategic analysis of the Iraqi defense plans, they will probably use Taliban-like tactics - hide their military units in mosques and civilian-populated areas in hopes that Allied forces will not strike them, and if they do, then they will hold up the bodies of the dead as evidence of Western brutality.

[spurly]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Oct. 03 2002,10:58)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Marc,
Many companies, small to medium businesses in particular cannot pay decent salaries or benefits because they are overtaxed. Taxes that are wasted on govt pork projects. Please don't say that if they didn't have to pay these taxes they would pocket the money themselves. I know alot of business owners who are Christians that don't think this way. In fact, many will tell you that if they could pay more, they could hire better talent. This is what they would use the money for. Recruiting good help.[/quote]

You're talking to a real person here, not a canned argument.  Any attempt to assume I will respond in a certain way based on political assumptions is futile.

I agree that small businesses are overtaxed, and believe our local economic system would be helped greatly if some of that burden were relieved.  But small businesses cannot bear the load themselves.  Large corporations are necessary for our economy to remain healthy.

I work for a large corporation--United Airlines.  Over the past year, for obvious reasons, we have received a great deal of help from the federal government--from tax money.  If that money had not been received, this company would no longer exist.  Furthermore, though there have been some positive signs in the past week, our company needs more help from the government.

In other words, the big guys, the small guys, those who can't fend for themselves all need help from the federal government.  Our tax system makes this help possible.

And btw, when all is said and done and the corporations are as healthy as they can be, there will still be many who fall through the cracks.  As a Christian, I believe in helping those who need the most help in any way possible.  My tax money is a small sacrifice when I know how much need exists.[/quote]
Marc,

I realize this may sound harsh, but I totally disagree with the government bailing out ANY business, including an airline company.  If a company can not make it on their own, they ought to go out of business.  Other people, who can set up companies that can make it on their own, would fill the gap.  My tax dollars should not be spent to keep inept managers who go into too much debt, or have poor business plans, in business.

Kevin

2 Thessalonians 3:10
"For even when we were with you we gave you this rule: If a man will not work, he shall not eat."    

3:12 "Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat."

3:14 "If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother."

Yeah, I'd say it's ok for the church to screen whats going on with the needy. Notice that we should even make him feel ashamed? It's a little different process than blindly paying the unknown masses the way the liberals prescribe. Their way is to make everyone feel real good and lovey touchy about themselves. No matter how scummy the situation really is.

[spurly]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (patriciaredstone @ Oct. 09 2002,7:45)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]By the way, I'm not up on numerology but I know there are several second-rate Christian apocolypse books which use the numerology based on the writings of SOME of the Jewish mytics. Many of these believe there are messages hidden in the NT. I do not discount their claims that the NT writers may have encoded messages in some of the numbers used (for instance the woman who touched Jesus in Capernaum bled for 12 years and the daughter of Jairus who was 12 years old) however I do not think it was sorcery anymore than the Jewish Mystics did.[/quote]
Patricia,

If it was done, as suggested in some recent books, I doubt it was the New Testament writers who embedded the code.  It was the Holy Spirit working through them.  I doubt they even knew it was happening - if it was happening.

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]No disrespect meant, but why would it not be discrimination if congress vetoed presidential nominees because they were pro-gay rights, pro-limited abortion, evolution in schools, ect.[/quote]

It is discrimination.  Both sides have done it, and let's face it, it's not particularly honorable of either.

Both 'conservative' and 'liberal' politics have given us long-term disasters.  And I think all of us are to blame.  We demand easy answers to hard problems and so we deserve the junk we get.

It's our duty to weigh ideas against God's will as best we can , and vote the way we see to be right.  

Also, maybe not calling each other names would be good thing for Christians to do.


Kari.

[Skip]

On broad brushes and generalizations...

Consider Jesus.
Read Matthew 23, where Jesus rails against the Pharisees.
Consider, then, that Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were in that group that Jesus broad-brushed in Matthew 23.
:0

And consider the Amalekites of 1 Samuel 15, who were obliterated man, woman, child and infant at God's command. For the act of a man of a prior generation.
:0

[janine]

Honey, there are very, very few people I despise, and so far none of them have posted to this board. ;)

B.H.

Your answer to Dante, ridiculous. Comparing a war against armies to take a dictator, killer, and psycopath out of power to bombing U.S. citizens to stop abortion??

That is a very illogical comparison. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

[terry]

I do have a question in general for anyone who is a fan of Utopian ideology. If you find that defending our nation is so immoral than is it not hypocritical to live here and enjoy the freedeoms that were bought by bloodshed through war? Wouldn't the truly politically correct action be to move to a "peaceful" country who has never been involved in self defense or war? If I did not believe in a countries right to self defense, than I would certainly not live in that country if my freedom was bought through the very actions that I say I despise. Just a thought.
terry

[spurly]

Personally, I would get government out of everything except National defense and infrastructure (roads, sewage systems, etc).  And even the infrastructure should be based on a use tax to pay for the services.  Tolls should be charged on all roads so that the people who don't use them should not have to pay for them.  The users should pay for the sewage systems, refuse systems, etc. depending on how much they use - and no more.  National defense is a little different, because we all use it.  A small tax would have to be levied for that.

But get the government out of the business of fighting diseases, predicting the weather, OSHA, and so many other things they think they should do - including food stamps, welfare, etc.  Those things should be provided by friends, neighbors, family, and the church.

Kevin

Can any of you Clinton/Gore lovers tell me why the liberals insist on holding my money hostage in a bankrupt social security system? If I could contribute my ss withholdings to a money market fund I would yield 3 times as much at retirement. Why are they so afraid of financial freedom?

[patriciaredstone]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Oct. 09 2002,10:55)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Unfortunately they also learn not to tolerate others who have, through Christ come to different ideas and solutions for the fallen world than those authorised by the group.

That is where we become centered on the axis of the world and our reach is extended to all. Words like Democrat, Republican, Cabbalist ... all disentigrate in the excruciating light that makes concepts like tolerance unnecessary.[/quote]
Am I to understand that faith in Jesus Christ leads one to learn the ways of Qabbalah? We are not to place our faith in Jesus only to gain further knowledge through the application of astrology and numerology. I can accept that Christians will have various political ideas. But participating in the occult in order to find solution for the fallen world? I don't think so.[/quote]
By the way, I'm not up on numerology but I know there are several second-rate Christian apocolypse books which use the numerology based on the writings of SOME of the Jewish mytics. Many of these believe there are messages hidden in the NT. I do not discount their claims that the NT writers may have encoded messages in some of the numbers used (for instance the woman who touched Jesus in Capernaum bled for 12 years and the daughter of Jairus who was 12 years old) however I do not think it was sorcery anymore than the Jewish Mystics did.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]May I also say that hard work doesn't necessarily mean financial success.  God has given everyone different talents and some talents are valued more in our society than others.  [/quote]
That is precisely the point.
Financial success is not determined by a person's level of work but by the value of what they produce.  What a society values is not determined by its economic system, but by the people living in that society.  What we value is determined by our belief system.
I think it may have been de'Tocqville who said that the most desirable form of government is a benevolent dictatorship.  Given the obvious problems with trying to establish that, I think our best bet is to introduce as many people as we can to the Love of Jesus Christ - thereby impacting what our society values.

Richard[/quote]


That is why capitalism is false, even if it is the most successful  economic system in the eyes of the world.  It does not pay people according to their labor per see, but what a bunch of people's whimsy in that given society tells them it is worth.

[lucybelle]

I should say, to clarify, that the gay movement officially began at a gay bar after police harassed a group of men mourning the death of Judy Garland.  They were in their own bar minding their own business and had had enough of the constant harrassment and threats.  For those with a sense of humor, the visual is actually kind of funny - some of the men were in heels and skirts chasing down police with beer bottles.

[Skip]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Lucybelle / Kari,

My point was that, first of all, "Christian" is now as broad a brush as the "Liberal" and "Conservative" and "Democrat" and "Republican" brushes.

Second, consider that the actions that 'started the gay rights movement' may have started the movement, but they do not justify the movement.

Just as a teenager in a too-strict household is not justified when he or she rebels against rules or punishments with sinful activities.

After all, consider this for harsh:
God eradicated Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone...[/quote]
... and this one, "Fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath."[/quote]

And this...
Ez. 18:20   "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Freebie,
Unfortunately, your right. Do any of you remember when Daschle and Gephardt stood on the lawn of the capitol next to a shiny new Lexus saying it would be equivalent of Bush's tax cut to the wealthy? The ironic thing about that is that you want that money out of the government and into the Lexus dealer. You want it anywhere that creates production. This creates jobs. I wondered why the reporters didn't call them on that?

BTW, the educated democrats in congress know all this economic stuff. They also know that their uneducated constituents don't. Instead of educating them they play into the ideas of class envy and inequality. They encourage people to wait for their check from the benevolent government when all the while they could be working at the Lexus plant.

Could some of you that claim to be liberals tell me why you vote for this? I mean, without saying I vote against such and such. Why do you vote to have your money taken away and tied up in the government doing no one any good at all?

[janine]

What, exactly, is it that I respect about people I do not agree with (on important matters which I consider way beyond the realm of opinion or preference)?

Um... That they are human, made in the image of my God?  That my Jesus died for them too?  Those are good thoughts...

That this is a discussion sort of forum & they have a right to state their opinions?  Yeah, that's good, too.

Do I respect their opinions?

Not on your life!