Sabbaths or Sabbath, Real Truth about Colossians 2:14-16

[Michael G]

Sabbaths Ceremonial or Sabbath 4th commandment,

The Real Truth about Colossians 2:14-16 

Part 1

NKJV
Col 2:14  having wiped out the HANDWRITING of REQUIREMENTS that was AGAINST US, which was CONTRARY TO US. And He has taken it out of the way, having NAILED it TO the CROSS.
Col 2:15  Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16  So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or REGARDING a FESTIVAL or a new moon or SABBATHS
Col 2:17  which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the SUBSTANCE is of CHRIST.


Col 2:16  So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or REGARDING a FESTIVAL or a new moon or SABBATHS(note plural in the New King James version)

Among the many verses the critics use to try to refute the Sabbath, there is no more famous then this passage. Of course, without a proper understanding of both the context and the aspects of the law, anyone can read these verses and conclude that the Sabbath has been done away with.


Was Paul talking about Sabbaths Ceremonials which were shadows of Christ spelled out in the Ordinances Handwritten Festivals which had to do with food, drink and various WASHINGS?

or was Paul talking about The

[Cobalt1959]

Sabbaths Ceremonial or Sabbath 4th commandment,

The Real Truth about Colossians 2:14-16 

Part 1

NKJV
Col 2:14  having wiped out the HANDWRITING of REQUIREMENTS that was AGAINST US, which was CONTRARY TO US. And He has taken it out of the way, having NAILED it TO the CROSS.
Col 2:15  Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16  So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or REGARDING a FESTIVAL or a new moon or SABBATHS(note plural in the New King James version)
Col 2:17  which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the SUBSTANCE is of CHRIST.

If I were you, I would go back to the original autographs.  A translation does not hold any authority and you cannot use it that way.   

[Michael G]

Billy Graham statement on question of Ten Commandments who is NOT "SDA"

QUESTION asked to Billy Graham:
"Some religious people I know tell me that the Ten Commandments are part of the law that do not apply to us today. They say that Christians are free from the law.  Is this Right ?

[Cobalt1959]

Sabbaths Ceremonial or Sabbath 4th commandment,

The Real Truth about Colossians 2:14-16  

Part 1

NKJV
Col 2:14  having wiped out the HANDWRITING of REQUIREMENTS that was AGAINST US, which was CONTRARY TO US. And He has taken it out of the way, having NAILED it TO the CROSS.
Col 2:15  Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16  So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or REGARDING a FESTIVAL or a new moon or SABBATHS(note plural in the New King James version)
Col 2:17  which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the SUBSTANCE is of CHRIST.

If I were you, I would go back to the original autographs.  A translation does not hold any authority and you cannot use it that way.  

ones lack of response to the scripture presented, are Ignorant and unstable in the Law of God, the scriptures presented in this First part are simple for the learned person in the Law of God to understand,  

1. WANT, ABSENCE OR DESTITUTION OF KNOWLEDGE; the NEGATIVE STATE OF THE MIND which HAS NOT BEEN INSTRUCTED IN ARTS, literature or science, or has not been informed of facts. Ignorance may be general, or it may be limited to particular subjects. IGNORANCE OF THE LAW does not excuse a man for violating it. IGNORANCE of facts if often venial.

2Pe 3:15  Look on our Lord's patience as the opportunity he is giving you to be saved, just as our dear friend Paul wrote to you, using the wisdom that God gave him.
2Pe 3:16  This is what he says in all his letters when he writes on the subject. There are some difficult things in his letters which IGNORANT and UNSTABLE people EXPLAIN FALSELY, as they do with OTHER PASSAGES OF THE SCRIPTURES. So they bring on their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17  But you, my friends, already know this. BE ON YOUR GUARD, then, so that YOU WILL NOT be led away by the ERRORS of LAWLESS PEOPLE and fall from your SAFE POSITION.
2Pe 3:18  But CONTINUE TO GROW in the GRACE and KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory, now and forever! Amen.

That's all, like, great and stuff, and I'm sure it makes you feel real good to think that you are so superior to other people in both biblical knowledge and biblical understanding, but here is the problem:  Your statement that I bolded in your original post is greatly flawed.  I gave you a clue to as to what is wrong with it, but you are so intelligent that you didn't feel the need to actually follow up on what I said.  

I could be ignorant and unstable.  Who knows?  It's possible, it happens.  But I do know one thing for sure.  Your comment of "note plural in the New King James version" is about as effective at proving your point as saying that you know the Sun revolves around the Earth because Taylor Swift told you so.  The problem is, the NKJV is a translation.  You know what a translation is, right?  It means the book was translated from something else, another language.  The Bible was not originally written in english.  It was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.  The New Testament was written in Greek.  We call these original Greek writings autographs.  The KJV is not inspired.  The NKJV is not inspired.  Those are simply translations of the original Greek.  They are not perfect.  The Greek autographs are what were originally delivered under plenary inspiration, and in the original Greek autograph of Colossians 2:16, the word Sabbath, or Sabbaton in Greek is singular, not plural.  Not that that little fact will stop your run-away train of bad hermeneutics. . .

[Cobalt1959]

Cobalt1959

you still have not replied to Billy Graham's statement,, of Ceremonial and the Ten Commandments,,

Well posting the same thing in two or three threads won't get the job done. 

Neither will using your own set of rules.  Your rules are much like DJConklins, to wit:  "You have to respond to me, but I don't have to respond to you."  And then he sticks his tongue out and says "We're done here."  You tell me I'm an idiot and then go back to posting encyclodedia's of mangled scripture.  I'm not getting a check signed by you, so I don't post on demand sport.

Thirdly, the insults.  You realize that as like, a Christian and stuff, there are certain ways you are supposed to behave, and conversely, not behave?  Evidently, if someone disagrees with you, you have no constraints to treat them with common courtesy, even though you claim to be a Christian.  Only that isn't what 2 Timothy 2:25 and 1 Peter 3:15 says.  So read those scriptures, see if you can still justify your insults and then get back to me.  Then maybe we will deal with Billy Graham.

[djconklin]

Col 2:16  So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or REGARDING a FESTIVAL or a new moon or SABBATHS
Col 2:17  which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the SUBSTANCE is of CHRIST.

Which translation are you using?

In vs. 16 heorte means "feast" not "festival."

In vs. 17 the last clause is "but the body of Christ" (a reference to the church)--it is the positive counterpart of "let no man judge."

For more details see http://www.666man.net/Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colintro.html

[djconklin]

Paul wrote Greek, not English translations.  The Greek he used was the Greek of the market-place, called koine Greek.  If you memorize 1,200-1,500 words you can read the NT in the original language.

[Cobalt1959]

Col 2:16  So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or REGARDING a FESTIVAL or a new moon or SABBATHS
Col 2:17  which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the SUBSTANCE is of CHRIST.

Which translation are you using?

In vs. 16 heorte means "feast" not "festival."

In vs. 17 the last clause is "but the body of Christ" (a reference to the church)--it is the positive counterpart of "let no man judge."

For more details see http://www.666man.net/Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colintro.html

No, that is not a reference to the church, it is a reference to exactly what it says it is, Christ.  Our spiritual reality, our spiritual substance, is found in Christ, not some church.  Being in a certain church is no guarantee of anything.  Mormons say they are the last true remnant of the "church" just as you do.  Are they correct?

[Cobalt1959]

Col 2:16

(ASV)  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:

(GNB)  So let no one make rules about what you eat or drink or about holy days or the New Moon Festival or the Sabbath.

(GW)  Therefore, let no one judge you because of what you eat or drink or about the observance of annual holy days, New Moon Festivals, or weekly worship days.

(ISV)  Therefore, let no one judge you in matters of food and drink or with respect to a festival, a new moon, or a Sabbath day.

(NKJV)  So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

(KJV)  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

(NASB)  Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

(Webster)  Let no man therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a holy-day, or or the new-moon, or of the sabbaths:

You forgot a few.  What does the original Greek say?

[djconklin]

>No, that is not a reference to the church,

1 Corinthians 12:27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Ephesians 4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

See the Troy Martin article I refer to in my study.

[djconklin]

>What does the original Greek say?

I don't know how to show it here.  The KJV is pretty close to accurate.  You can see the Greek and a word for word translation here: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/col2.pdf

[Michael G]

Sabbaths Ceremonial or Sabbath 4th commandment,

The Real Truth about Colossians 2:14-16  

Part 1

NKJV
Col 2:14  having wiped out the HANDWRITING of REQUIREMENTS that was AGAINST US, which was CONTRARY TO US. And He has taken it out of the way, having NAILED it TO the CROSS.
Col 2:15  Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16  So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or REGARDING a FESTIVAL or a new moon or SABBATHS(note plural in the New King James version)
Col 2:17  which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the SUBSTANCE is of CHRIST.

If I were you, I would go back to the original autographs.  A translation does not hold any authority and you cannot use it that way.  

ones lack of response to the scripture presented, are Ignorant and unstable in the Law of God, the scriptures presented in this First part are simple for the learned person in the Law of God to understand,  

1. WANT, ABSENCE OR DESTITUTION OF KNOWLEDGE; the NEGATIVE STATE OF THE MIND which HAS NOT BEEN INSTRUCTED IN ARTS, literature or science, or has not been informed of facts. Ignorance may be general, or it may be limited to particular subjects. IGNORANCE OF THE LAW does not excuse a man for violating it. IGNORANCE of facts if often venial.

2Pe 3:15  Look on our Lord's patience as the opportunity he is giving you to be saved, just as our dear friend Paul wrote to you, using the wisdom that God gave him.
2Pe 3:16  This is what he says in all his letters when he writes on the subject. There are some difficult things in his letters which IGNORANT and UNSTABLE people EXPLAIN FALSELY, as they do with OTHER PASSAGES OF THE SCRIPTURES. So they bring on their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17  But you, my friends, already know this. BE ON YOUR GUARD, then, so that YOU WILL NOT be led away by the ERRORS of LAWLESS PEOPLE and fall from your SAFE POSITION.
2Pe 3:18  But CONTINUE TO GROW in the GRACE and KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory, now and forever! Amen.

That's all, like, great and stuff, and I'm sure it makes you feel real good to think that you are so superior to other people in both biblical knowledge and biblical understanding, but here is the problem:  Your statement that I bolded in your original post is greatly flawed.  I gave you a clue to as to what is wrong with it, but you are so intelligent that you didn't feel the need to actually follow up on what I said.  

I could be ignorant and unstable.  Who knows?  It's possible, it happens.  But I do know one thing for sure.  Your comment of "note plural in the New King James version" is about as effective at proving your point as saying that you know the Sun revolves around the Earth because Taylor Swift told you so.  The problem is, the NKJV is a translation.  You know what a translation is, right?  It means the book was translated from something else, another language.  The Bible was not originally written in english.  It was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.  The New Testament was written in Greek.  We call these original Greek writings autographs.  The KJV is not inspired.  The NKJV is not inspired.  Those are simply translations of the original Greek.  They are not perfect.  The Greek autographs are what were originally delivered under plenary inspiration, and in the original Greek autograph of Colossians 2:16, the word Sabbath, or Sabbaton in Greek is singular, not plural.  Not that that little fact will stop your run-away train of bad hermeneutics. . .

Albert Barns Born 1798 Presbyterian Minister Graduate of Princeton seminary school. 
Scholar, Theologian, Commentator on all the NT..
Very well respected among his peers



Albert Barns notes on the Sabbath in Colossians..Albert uses the KJV bible.

KJV Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an HOLYDAY, or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS: (note the words used SABBATH DAYS is Plural) 

NKJV Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an HOLYDAY, or of the new moon, or of the SABBATHS: (note the word SABBATHS is Plural)   

Albert Barnes Commentary on Colossians 2:16

Or of the SABBATH DAYS - Greek,"of the SABBATHS.

[DaveW]

The seperation of laws into "moral" and "ceremonial" is not scriptural.

A better seperation is what has been obsoleted or modified or continued intact by the New Covenant.  Our congregational leader and the founder of our brotherhood of congregations are working on a book examining all 613 commands and how they are affected individually by the New Covenant. It is a work in progress.

http://www.tikkunamerica.org/halachah.php

THe table of contents lists the individual commands.

I strongly suggest Rabbi Rudolph's comments on "Elephants in the Room" which addresses Paul's seemingly anti-Torah statements in his writings used by those who who are antinomian to support their positions.

[Hobie]

Sabbaths Ceremonial or Sabbath 4th commandment,

The Real Truth about Colossians 2:14-16 

Part 1

NKJV
Col 2:14  having wiped out the HANDWRITING of REQUIREMENTS that was AGAINST US, which was CONTRARY TO US. And He has taken it out of the way, having NAILED it TO the CROSS.
Col 2:15  Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16  So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or REGARDING a FESTIVAL or a new moon or SABBATHS
Col 2:17  which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the SUBSTANCE is of CHRIST.


Col 2:16  So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or REGARDING a FESTIVAL or a new moon or SABBATHS(note plural in the New King James version)

Among the many verses the critics use to try to refute the Sabbath, there is no more famous then this passage. Of course, without a proper understanding of both the context and the aspects of the law, anyone can read these verses and conclude that the Sabbath has been done away with.


Was Paul talking about Sabbaths Ceremonials which were shadows of Christ spelled out in the Ordinances Handwritten Festivals which had to do with food, drink and various WASHINGS?

It clearly was the ceremonial..

[dpr]

What Apostle Paul said in Colossians 2 to not allow any man to judge us as Christians regarding food or drink, or in regard to a holy day, or new moon, or of the sabbath days, STILL STANDS AS WRITTEN.

No amount of wishy-washy play on words will change what Paul said there, for the word for "sabbaths" in the Greek is the word 'sabaton' which is definitely about the weekly sabbath...

NT:4521
sabbaton (sab'-bat-on); of Hebrew origin [OT:7676]; the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension, a se'nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications:

KJV - sabbath (day), week.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


Nor... is there anywhere written in The New Testament by the Apostles that observing the traditional Jewish sabbath was required of the Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

The early Church in JUDEA observed the Jewish sabbath because they had to according to the law of Judaism then. But they held Christian Church service on Sunday, and that... is where the Sunday Christian worship tradition began. Today, we are to be in Christ EVERYDAY now, not just on a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday.

One can keep the 'traditional' Jewish sabbath all they want (Friday at sunset to Saturday sunset), but they are not... to push that upon the Church as a requirement to be in Christ, which is violation of Christian Doctrine according to Apostle Paul.

[Cathlodox]

According to SDA teaching if one accepts the Sabbath they will then be able to comprehend & accept "The Sabbath God" which they assert to be Father God, a flesh, bone and organ hominid with all the functional members and parts of a "perfect human man".

It is said by the SDA's that after someone accepts the Bible Sabbath that they can move on to learning about "THE SABBATH GOD" which they contrast with the Sunday or Beast Power "Trinity God".

This fact can be confirmed by reading the March 7, 1854 Sabbath Hearld which does an excellent job of detailing this often unknown aspect of Seventh-day Adventist teaching.

Ellen White would later on declare the Personality of God Doctrine to be a Pillar doctrine of SDAism. The Sabbath is therefore a "gateway" Doctrine to soften up an individual into accepting that God the Father has bones, digestive tract and every other member and part that a perfect man has.

[dpr]

God's Word has given Judah (Jews) care of His law for this world, so the Jews have been given the natural propensity (by Him) to want to keep it. However, when Jesus came to present The New Covenant there was made a change in the law, as written in Hebrews. Jesus freed believers on Him from law-keeping to be saved. No one is saved by keeping the law, period. We are saved ONLY by Faith now, and not by works of the law, and this is New Covenant doctrine according to Apostle Paul.

But if Judah still wants to try and keep the law, fine, go to, even though they will always fall short of being perfect in it. And if they fail in only one thing in law keeping, they fail in all, because seeking to be put back in bondage to the law means seeking to be justified by the law.

But in the world to come in Christ's future literal physical kingdom, we all will keep God's law perfectly, and that is what Apostle Paul meant in Col.2 about those things being a shadow of things to come.

According to SDA teaching if one accepts the Sabbath they will then be able to comprehend & accept "The Sabbath God" which they assert to be Father God, a flesh, bone and organ hominid with all the functional members and parts of a "perfect human man".

It is said by the SDA's that after someone accepts the Bible Sabbath that they can move on to learning about "THE SABBATH GOD" which they contrast with the Sunday or Beast Power "Trinity God".

This fact can be confirmed by reading the March 7, 1854 Sabbath Hearld which does an excellent job of detailing this often unknown aspect of Seventh-day Adventist teaching.

Ellen White would later on declare the Personality of God Doctrine to be a Pillar doctrine of SDAism. The Sabbath is therefore a "gateway" Doctrine to soften up an individual into accepting that God the Father has bones, digestive tract and every other member and part that a perfect man has.

[Amo]

What Apostle Paul said in Colossians 2 to not allow any man to judge us as Christians regarding food or drink, or in regard to a holy day, or new moon, or of the sabbath days, STILL STANDS AS WRITTEN.

No amount of wishy-washy play on words will change what Paul said there, for the word for "sabbaths" in the Greek is the word 'sabaton' which is definitely about the weekly sabbath...

NT:4521
sabbaton (sab'-bat-on); of Hebrew origin [OT:7676]; the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension, a se'nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications:

KJV - sabbath (day), week.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


Nor... is there anywhere written in The New Testament by the Apostles that observing the traditional Jewish sabbath was required of the Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

The early Church in JUDEA observed the Jewish sabbath because they had to according to the law of Judaism then. But they held Christian Church service on Sunday, and that... is where the Sunday Christian worship tradition began. Today, we are to be in Christ EVERYDAY now, not just on a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday.

One can keep the 'traditional' Jewish sabbath all they want (Friday at sunset to Saturday sunset), but they are not... to push that upon the Church as a requirement to be in Christ, which is violation of Christian Doctrine according to Apostle Paul.

Are you preaching this to your Sunday keeping brethren as well, seeing that they are the ones who have and do continue to pass Sunday laws the world over and again? Attempting to force all to observe their chosen day. If not, then do you really even believe what you are preaching? Just another don't do as I do, just do as I say.

I'll not even waste time arguing this same point over again with you, as this argument has been waged on these boards and with basically the same people for many a year now. I leave you the the delusions you have chosen.

Jer 14:14  Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

To be sure, there are many false prophets in the world. By their fruits though, shall one know them. It is not those who keep God's seventh day Sabbath who claim a day no longer matters, while trying to force everyone to observe their chosen day at the same time. Such fruits, reveal the lie. So be it, as God has determined.


Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

[Amo]

According to SDA teaching if one accepts the Sabbath they will then be able to comprehend & accept "The Sabbath God" which they assert to be Father God, a flesh, bone and organ hominid with all the functional members and parts of a "perfect human man".

It is said by the SDA's that after someone accepts the Bible Sabbath that they can move on to learning about "THE SABBATH GOD" which they contrast with the Sunday or Beast Power "Trinity God".

This fact can be confirmed by reading the March 7, 1854 Sabbath Hearld which does an excellent job of detailing this often unknown aspect of Seventh-day Adventist teaching.

Ellen White would later on declare the Personality of God Doctrine to be a Pillar doctrine of SDAism. The Sabbath is therefore a "gateway" Doctrine to soften up an individual into accepting that God the Father has bones, digestive tract and every other member and part that a perfect man has.

Baby-on broken record.

[dpr]

Are you preaching this to your Sunday keeping brethren as well, seeing that they are the ones who have and do continue to pass Sunday laws the world over and again? Attempting to force all to observe their chosen day. If not, then do you really even believe what you are preaching? Just another don't do as I do, just do as I say.

....

Looking for a point to push in a fake wedge, I see.

Doesn't matter who it is that tries to counter the Scripture, what Apostle Paul said in Colossians 2:13-17 still stands AS WRITTEN.

[Cathlodox]

Baby-on broken record.

The Sabath Herald indeed published an article detailing how after someone started keeping the Sabbath they would be able to be instructed about how Father God has a body of flesh.

Indeed Ellen White identified the Personality of God Doctrine as a pillar or landmark doctrine for the SDA Church - it's as important as the sanctuary doctrine - in fact the POG was so important the SDA's claimed you couldn't have the sanctuary doctrine without it.

Sabbath keeping was understood to be the defense against the Trinity Doctrine.

[Hobie]

If I were you, I would go back to the original autographs.  A translation does not hold any authority and you cannot use it that way.   

Yet thats what everyone does..

[Amo]

Looking for a point to push in a fake wedge, I see.

Doesn't matter who it is that tries to counter the Scripture, what Apostle Paul said in Colossians 2:13-17 still stands AS WRITTEN.

There is nothing fake about the endless Sunday laws there have been throughout history, the recent ones passed around the world, and the continued efforts to establish them whenever and wherever possible. These are the fruits which reveal the lie and hypocrisy of the Sunday sacredness movement. If no one is to be judged or judge that a day does matter, then laws establishing a day which all must observe in one form or another, glaringly contradict such a professed belief.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Yes, Colossians 2 does still stand just as written. No Christian is beholden to the rudiments of the world, ordinances, and or commandments and doctrines of men. Which includes all such given specifically to Israel by the hand of Moses, for that nation. Which does not include the law of  God given to Israel by the His own hand, and spoken to the entire nation of Israel by His own mouth. Which commandments our Lord and the apostles have admonished all to keep throughout and up to the last book and chapter of holy scripture. While the rudiments, ordinances, commandments, and doctrines of men which you speak of, are specifically addressed in the NT as no longer applicably necessary especially to gentile converts of the New Covenant. A distinction those who no longer wish to keep God's commandments choose to ignore. Nevertheless, all of the NT scriptures admonishing God's own of the new covenant era, to keep God's commandments still stand just as they are written.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.(KJV)

Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.(KJV)

1Cor 7:17 Only, let each one live the life which the Lord has assigned him, and to which God has called him [for each person is unique and is accountable for his choices and conduct, let him walk in this way]. This is the rule I make in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was [when he was] called.(AMP)

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

2Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. 5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Try as you may, you cannot separate the fourth commandment from the others spoken by the mouth of God to humanity, and written with His own finger. Nor does anyone apart from Christ have the authority to do away with and or change any commandment of God. To the contrary, as quoted among the verses above, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ plainly stated that the law of God would not change til heaven and earth pass when all shall be fulfilled.

[Amo]

The Sabath Herald indeed published an article detailing how after someone started keeping the Sabbath they would be able to be instructed about how Father God has a body of flesh.

Indeed Ellen White identified the Personality of God Doctrine as a pillar or landmark doctrine for the SDA Church - it's as important as the sanctuary doctrine - in fact the POG was so important the SDA's claimed you couldn't have the sanctuary doctrine without it.

Sabbath keeping was understood to be the defense against the Trinity Doctrine.

Yes, some people believe that lies they repeat often enough, eventually become true by repetition. Others rightly understand the folly of such vain imaginings.

[Cathlodox]

Amo, that Ellen White affirmed "the Personality of God" IS NO LIE. Instead of disputing what I'm saying with facts you accuse me of lying about it which IS YOUR ONLY DEFENSE against the truth.


Sabbath Herald, September 5, 1878:
"Thus it is declared that God has all the members and parts of a perfect man. This is not said once, nor twice, but many times, not in parables and symbols, and figures, but directly and plainly"

Several queries present themselves here: Is Christ the very and eternal God? So they say. Did Christ have a body? This they postively affirm. Is he inseparably connected with that body? and has he not that body in Heaven? This they plainly declare. Is he not the true God? So they say. Then has not the true God a body? Thus the creed directly says. Then certainly God has a body—occupies a body. Why, then, do the creeds say that he has no body? Again we are told by these creeds that God is everywhere, as much in one place as another, and no more in one place than another. But the Bible says that Jesus ascended up on high, and is at the right hand of the Father. Did he ascend everywhere? Was his body divided into innumerable particles, and scattered throughout the universe? If the Father is everywhere and nowhere in particular, where did Jesus go? Again it is claimed that saints at death go to Heaven, where God is. Do they go everywhere, and nowhere in particular? All this seems to me to be the sheerest nonsense. It is opposed to common sense and to the Bible. No; God is a person, a real being.

Ellen White, Sabbath Herald, March 8, 1906
"He who denies the personality of God and of his Son Jesus 'Christ, is denying God and 'Christ. " If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." If you continue to believe and obey the truths you first embraced regarding the personality of the Father and the Son, you will be joined together with him in love. There will be seen that union for which Christ prayed just before his trial and crucifixion:— " That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

THAT's Ellen saying if you don't believe what the SDA Pioneers have been pumping into people about Father God being the ONLY Ultimate God and His having a flesh body of bone, members and organs you ARE REJECTING GOD & creature Christ.

The following demonstrates how a man who was formally in a Trinitarian Church accepted the Sabbath and soon thereafter accepted the truth of Flesh Father.

Sabbath Herald March 13, 1856
BRO. DANIEL BAKER writes from Tioga, CO., Pa: : "After contending against the Trinitarian doctrine and all sectarian  disciplines for about sixteen years, and against the doctrine of the soul's immortality eight years, and for the seventh-day Sabbath three years, it is truly refreshing to find in your paper the same views proved by Scripture. I therefore enclose," &c.

Another testimony of a man who was a Methodist but luckily found a Sabbath believing Church who taught that Father God had a body of flesh with members and parts.

Sabbath Herald, June 6, 1878
For, fifteen years I was a member of the Wesleyan Methodist church, and during the whole of that time I was deeply convinced of sin. Although the last three years of that time I was appointed class leader and local preacher, I did not feel what I tried to point out to others,—the experience of a true believer in Jesus; but the more I studied their doctrines the more I became bewildered, until I finally decided to try no longer to attain that height of perfection which is set forth in the Scriptures; for when I examined their teaching in describing the personality of God, I found that it was altogether contrary to the word of God.


JAMES S. WHITE: "The way spiritualizers have disposed of or denied the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ is first using the old unscriptural Trinitarian creed, viz., that Jesus Christ is the eternal God, though they have not one passage to support it, while we have plain scripture testimony in abundance  that he is the Son of the eternal God." – James White, The Day Star, January 24, 1846

Sabbath Herald, November 21, 1854:
So, after all that has been said and written by these two schools, it appears that there is no real difference in their respective theories, in reFerence to the atonement; both have, in fact, only a human sacrifice: but with reference to their views of the highest nature of the Son of God, they are as far asunder as finitude and infinitude, time and eternity. The former makes the " only Begotten of the Father," a mere mortal, finite man; the latter makes him the Infinite, Omnipotent, All-wise, and Eternal God, absolutely equal with the Everlasting Father. Now, I understand the truth to be in the medium between these two extremes. I have proved, as I think conclusively, 1st, that the Son of God in his highest nature existed before the creation of the first world, or the first intelligent being in the vast Universe; 2d, that he had an origin; that "he was the first born of every creature;" "the beginning of the creation of God ;" [Rev. iii, 14;] 3d, that, in his highest nature, all things in heaven and in earth were created, and are upheld, by him; 4th, in his dignity, he was exalted far above all the angels of heaven, and all the kings and potentates of earth; 5th, in his nature he was immortal, (not in an absolute sense,) and Divine; 6th, in his titles and privileges, he was " the only begotten of his Father," whose glory he shared "before the world was ;" the "image of the invisible God ;" "in the form of God ;" and "thought it not robbery to be equal with God ;" "the likeness of his Father's glory and express image of his person ;" " the Word" who "was in the beginning with God" and who "was God."

Bible Eco and Signs of the times October 1, 1899:
There are two facts which are amply sufficient to account for Christ's statement recorded in John 14 : 28. One is that Christ is the Son of God. While both are of the same nature, the Father is first in point of time. He is also greater in that he had no beginning, while Christ's personality had a beginning.

Ellen White was baptized into the Methodist Church...
...Ellen White affirmed at that time the Trinity Doctrine.
...As it's the foundational Doctrine of the Methodist Church.

After Ellen accepts the "Sabbath" her mind is able to appreciate flesh Father...
...Ellen must reject her former Trinitarian Baptism, Ellen now requires re-Baptism.
...Ellen puts herself under the arch heretic James White who Baptizes her into Anti-Trinitarianism.

"She has been taken off in vision most frequently when bowed in prayer. Several times, while earnestly addressing the congregation, unexpectedly to herself and to all around her, she has been instantly prostrated in vision. This was a case June 12, 1868, in the presence of not less than two hundred Sabbath-keepers, in the house of worship, in Battle Creek, Mich. On receiving baptism at my hands, at an early period of her experience, as I raised her up out of the water, immediately she was in vision. Several times, when prostrated by sickness, she has been relieved in answer to the prayer of faith, and taken off in vision." Ellen G. White Messenger to the Remnant page 29.

Hope this helps you Amo

[Amo]

Amo, that Ellen White affirmed "the Personality of God" IS NO LIE. Instead of disputing what I'm saying with facts you accuse me of lying about it which IS YOUR ONLY DEFENSE against the truth.


Sabbath Herald, September 5, 1878:
"Thus it is declared that God has all the members and parts of a perfect man. This is not said once, nor twice, but many times, not in parables and symbols, and figures, but directly and plainly"

Several queries present themselves here: Is Christ the very and eternal God? So they say. Did Christ have a body? This they postively affirm. Is he inseparably connected with that body? and has he not that body in Heaven? This they plainly declare. Is he not the true God? So they say. Then has not the true God a body? Thus the creed directly says. Then certainly God has a body—occupies a body. Why, then, do the creeds say that he has no body? Again we are told by these creeds that God is everywhere, as much in one place as another, and no more in one place than another. But the Bible says that Jesus ascended up on high, and is at the right hand of the Father. Did he ascend everywhere? Was his body divided into innumerable particles, and scattered throughout the universe? If the Father is everywhere and nowhere in particular, where did Jesus go? Again it is claimed that saints at death go to Heaven, where God is. Do they go everywhere, and nowhere in particular? All this seems to me to be the sheerest nonsense. It is opposed to common sense and to the Bible. No; God is a person, a real being.

Ellen White, Sabbath Herald, March 8, 1906
"He who denies the personality of God and of his Son Jesus 'Christ, is denying God and 'Christ. " If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." If you continue to believe and obey the truths you first embraced regarding the personality of the Father and the Son, you will be joined together with him in love. There will be seen that union for which Christ prayed just before his trial and crucifixion:— " That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

THAT's Ellen saying if you don't believe what the SDA Pioneers have been pumping into people about Father God being the ONLY Ultimate God and His having a flesh body of bone, members and organs you ARE REJECTING GOD & creature Christ.

The following demonstrates how a man who was formally in a Trinitarian Church accepted the Sabbath and soon thereafter accepted the truth of Flesh Father.

Sabbath Herald March 13, 1856
BRO. DANIEL BAKER writes from Tioga, CO., Pa: : "After contending against the Trinitarian doctrine and all sectarian  disciplines for about sixteen years, and against the doctrine of the soul's immortality eight years, and for the seventh-day Sabbath three years, it is truly refreshing to find in your paper the same views proved by Scripture. I therefore enclose," &c.

Another testimony of a man who was a Methodist but luckily found a Sabbath believing Church who taught that Father God had a body of flesh with members and parts.

Sabbath Herald, June 6, 1878
For, fifteen years I was a member of the Wesleyan Methodist church, and during the whole of that time I was deeply convinced of sin. Although the last three years of that time I was appointed class leader and local preacher, I did not feel what I tried to point out to others,—the experience of a true believer in Jesus; but the more I studied their doctrines the more I became bewildered, until I finally decided to try no longer to attain that height of perfection which is set forth in the Scriptures; for when I examined their teaching in describing the personality of God, I found that it was altogether contrary to the word of God.


JAMES S. WHITE: "The way spiritualizers have disposed of or denied the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ is first using the old unscriptural Trinitarian creed, viz., that Jesus Christ is the eternal God, though they have not one passage to support it, while we have plain scripture testimony in abundance  that he is the Son of the eternal God." – James White, The Day Star, January 24, 1846

Sabbath Herald, November 21, 1854:
So, after all that has been said and written by these two schools, it appears that there is no real difference in their respective theories, in reFerence to the atonement; both have, in fact, only a human sacrifice: but with reference to their views of the highest nature of the Son of God, they are as far asunder as finitude and infinitude, time and eternity. The former makes the " only Begotten of the Father," a mere mortal, finite man; the latter makes him the Infinite, Omnipotent, All-wise, and Eternal God, absolutely equal with the Everlasting Father. Now, I understand the truth to be in the medium between these two extremes. I have proved, as I think conclusively, 1st, that the Son of God in his highest nature existed before the creation of the first world, or the first intelligent being in the vast Universe; 2d, that he had an origin; that "he was the first born of every creature;" "the beginning of the creation of God ;" [Rev. iii, 14;] 3d, that, in his highest nature, all things in heaven and in earth were created, and are upheld, by him; 4th, in his dignity, he was exalted far above all the angels of heaven, and all the kings and potentates of earth; 5th, in his nature he was immortal, (not in an absolute sense,) and Divine; 6th, in his titles and privileges, he was " the only begotten of his Father," whose glory he shared "before the world was ;" the "image of the invisible God ;" "in the form of God ;" and "thought it not robbery to be equal with God ;" "the likeness of his Father's glory and express image of his person ;" " the Word" who "was in the beginning with God" and who "was God."

Bible Eco and Signs of the times October 1, 1899:
There are two facts which are amply sufficient to account for Christ's statement recorded in John 14 : 28. One is that Christ is the Son of God. While both are of the same nature, the Father is first in point of time. He is also greater in that he had no beginning, while Christ's personality had a beginning.

Ellen White was baptized into the Methodist Church...
...Ellen White affirmed at that time the Trinity Doctrine.
...As it's the foundational Doctrine of the Methodist Church.

After Ellen accepts the "Sabbath" her mind is able to appreciate flesh Father...
...Ellen must reject her former Trinitarian Baptism, Ellen now requires re-Baptism.
...Ellen puts herself under the arch heretic James White who Baptizes her into Anti-Trinitarianism.

"She has been taken off in vision most frequently when bowed in prayer. Several times, while earnestly addressing the congregation, unexpectedly to herself and to all around her, she has been instantly prostrated in vision. This was a case June 12, 1868, in the presence of not less than two hundred Sabbath-keepers, in the house of worship, in Battle Creek, Mich. On receiving baptism at my hands, at an early period of her experience, as I raised her up out of the water, immediately she was in vision. Several times, when prostrated by sickness, she has been relieved in answer to the prayer of faith, and taken off in vision." Ellen G. White Messenger to the Remnant page 29.

Hope this helps you Amo

How can endlessly repeating proved lies and manipulation of others words, ever help anyone? I do understand though, that a minion of Babylon will of course continue to Babyl-on.

[Cathlodox]

What one of the quotes from your Church have you proved to be a lie?

[Amo]

What one of the quotes from your Church have you proved to be a lie?

I haven't tried to prove quotes from people within my denomination over the last century and a half or so, are lies. I have proved that you misapply quotes from previous SDA's, as either established church doctrine, or pull them completely out of their original context to apply meaning to them which was never intended. Having caught you doing so, and proved such, I no longer choose to follow your endless trails to nowhere.

Apart from which, I know your above accusations to be a load of crap, without having to go back and examine the quotes you pull out of things written well over a hundred years ago. I have read the writings of EGW extensively, and therefore know, that your accusations are full of crap.

You don't care if you are being truthful or not, as I have already shown you how you have twisted the words of others into your own lies. You ignore this, and continue to Babyl-on. So be it.

[Cathlodox]

I haven't tried to prove quotes from people within my denomination over the last century and a half or so, are lies. I have proved that you misapply quotes from previous SDA's, as either established church doctrine, or pull them completely out of their original context to apply meaning to them which was never intended. Having caught you doing so, and proved such, I no longer choose to follow your endless trails to nowhere.

Apart from which, I know your above accusations to be a load of crap, without having to go back and examine the quotes you pull out of things written well over a hundred years ago. I have read the writings of EGW extensively, and therefore know, that your accusations are full of crap.

You don't care if you are being truthful or not, as I have already shown you how you have twisted the words of others into your own lies. You ignore this, and continue to Babyl-on. So be it.

Would you accept the Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists are current enough to confirm or deny that they reflect what I've been posting SDA's believed in the 19th century?

[Amo]

Would you accept the Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists are current enough to confirm or deny that they reflect what I've been posting SDA's believed in the 19th century?

Yet again -

If you must Babyl-on, then start another thread asking these questions. Don't hijack other topics, in the hope I suppose, of changing the subject regarding things perhaps you would rather not see discussed. Regardless of your reasoning, as I cannot know for sure, create your own topic or thread to discuss these issues. Don't hijack existing ones.