Was Saul/Paul water Baptized ??

[gospel]

In Acts 2, they were baptized (in water) in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It couldn't have been that they were Holy Spirit baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Not sure how we got to this point, but...

At Pentecost, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room.

The "gift of the Holy Spirit" was promised to the mob in the street below (Acts 2:38) upon their water baptism.

What makes you think the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room?  The Bible doesn't say that.

What bible are you reading?  

It really doesn't matter which Bible I am reading.  I don't know of a single translation that says that the events of  Acts 2:4 constitute Baptism in the Holy Spirit.  Now you may make the assumption that is the case and try to argue for that position.  But Lively, it is not a given that you are correct.  And in fact I can make an argument that you are not correct.  Rather, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what all 3000 mentioned in Acts 2:41 received,

For what it is worth, I think a credible argument can be made that Acts 2:41 was in fact limited to the 12 and not to the 120 that was mentioned in Acts 1:15.  Acts 2:1 suggests that one or even several days passed between the events of Acts 1:15-26 and the events in Acts 2:1 and following.  In fact there is reason to believe that the events on Pentecost discussed in Acts had nothing to do with the upper  room of Acts 2 but were in fact elsewhere.

Here again, you can make whatever assumptions you wish in your interpretation, and argue from that point of view.  But the Bible makes no such statement.  You must first answer the question of how much time passed between the events of Acts 1:15 and Pentecost in Acts 2:1

What do you think that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is?

I think that baptism of the Holy Spirit is what each and every Christian receives when the are saved. 

1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

If you wish, I can email you a brief study that I put together.  It is about 4 pages long and I think a bit too much for a forum.

It would be good for you to research the NT and discover for yourself how every believer experienced a subsequent experience with the Holy Spirit, His baptism in power...all occurred after salvation.

I take it that you have a "Pentecostal view" of the Christian and the Holy Spirit.

That is the correct view

I don't think so, but you knew that.

Yep and ...

that is why you're close but no cigar!

Well you do have the cigar, and it stinks. 

More importantly and to the topic

More than immersed I also have the INFILLING of the Holy Spirit and when you have that my friend, you have Everything pertaining to Life and Godliness!

[Jimmy]

In Acts 2, they were baptized (in water) in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It couldn't have been that they were Holy Spirit baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Not sure how we got to this point, but...

At Pentecost, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room.

The "gift of the Holy Spirit" was promised to the mob in the street below (Acts 2:38) upon their water baptism.

What makes you think the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room?  The Bible doesn't say that.

What bible are you reading?  

It really doesn't matter which Bible I am reading.  I don't know of a single translation that says that the events of  Acts 2:4 constitute Baptism in the Holy Spirit.  Now you may make the assumption that is the case and try to argue for that position.  But Lively, it is not a given that you are correct.  And in fact I can make an argument that you are not correct.  Rather, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what all 3000 mentioned in Acts 2:41 received,

For what it is worth, I think a credible argument can be made that Acts 2:41 was in fact limited to the 12 and not to the 120 that was mentioned in Acts 1:15.  Acts 2:1 suggests that one or even several days passed between the events of Acts 1:15-26 and the events in Acts 2:1 and following.  In fact there is reason to believe that the events on Pentecost discussed in Acts had nothing to do with the upper  room of Acts 2 but were in fact elsewhere.

Here again, you can make whatever assumptions you wish in your interpretation, and argue from that point of view.  But the Bible makes no such statement.  You must first answer the question of how much time passed between the events of Acts 1:15 and Pentecost in Acts 2:1

What do you think that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is?

I think that baptism of the Holy Spirit is what each and every Christian receives when the are saved. 

1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

If you wish, I can email you a brief study that I put together.  It is about 4 pages long and I think a bit too much for a forum.

It would be good for you to research the NT and discover for yourself how every believer experienced a subsequent experience with the Holy Spirit, His baptism in power...all occurred after salvation.

I take it that you have a "Pentecostal view" of the Christian and the Holy Spirit.

That is the correct view

I don't think so, but you knew that.

Yep and ...

that is why you're close but no cigar!

Well you do have the cigar, and it stinks. 

More importantly and to the topic

More than immersed I also have the INFILLING of the Holy Spirit and when you have that my friend, you have Everything pertaining to Life and Godliness!

Infilling?  And that is different from baptism or indwelling?  Do you perform miracles with that infilling?  Heal the sick, raise the dead, prophesy the future, make the blind to see or the lame to walk?

[The Great Baptizmo]

In Acts 2, they were baptized (in water) in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It couldn't have been that they were Holy Spirit baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Not sure how we got to this point, but...

At Pentecost, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room.

The "gift of the Holy Spirit" was promised to the mob in the street below (Acts 2:38) upon their water baptism.

What makes you think the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room?  The Bible doesn't say that.

What bible are you reading?  

It really doesn't matter which Bible I am reading.  I don't know of a single translation that says that the events of  Acts 2:4 constitute Baptism in the Holy Spirit.  Now you may make the assumption that is the case and try to argue for that position.  But Lively, it is not a given that you are correct.  And in fact I can make an argument that you are not correct.  Rather, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what all 3000 mentioned in Acts 2:41 received,

For what it is worth, I think a credible argument can be made that Acts 2:41 was in fact limited to the 12 and not to the 120 that was mentioned in Acts 1:15.  Acts 2:1 suggests that one or even several days passed between the events of Acts 1:15-26 and the events in Acts 2:1 and following.  In fact there is reason to believe that the events on Pentecost discussed in Acts had nothing to do with the upper  room of Acts 2 but were in fact elsewhere.

Here again, you can make whatever assumptions you wish in your interpretation, and argue from that point of view.  But the Bible makes no such statement.  You must first answer the question of how much time passed between the events of Acts 1:15 and Pentecost in Acts 2:1

What do you think that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is?

I think that baptism of the Holy Spirit is what each and every Christian receives when the are saved. 

1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

If you wish, I can email you a brief study that I put together.  It is about 4 pages long and I think a bit too much for a forum.

It would be good for you to research the NT and discover for yourself how every believer experienced a subsequent experience with the Holy Spirit, His baptism in power...all occurred after salvation.

I take it that you have a "Pentecostal view" of the Christian and the Holy Spirit.

That is the correct view

I don't think so, but you knew that.

Yep and ...

that is why you're close but no cigar!

Well you do have the cigar, and it stinks. 

More importantly and to the topic

More than immersed I also have the INFILLING of the Holy Spirit and when you have that my friend, you have Everything pertaining to Life and Godliness!

From reading this conversation and implications you have made, it appears to me that you do have an INFILLING of PRIDE.

[gospel]

In Acts 2, they were baptized (in water) in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It couldn't have been that they were Holy Spirit baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Not sure how we got to this point, but...

At Pentecost, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room.

The "gift of the Holy Spirit" was promised to the mob in the street below (Acts 2:38) upon their water baptism.

What makes you think the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room?  The Bible doesn't say that.

What bible are you reading?  

It really doesn't matter which Bible I am reading.  I don't know of a single translation that says that the events of  Acts 2:4 constitute Baptism in the Holy Spirit.  Now you may make the assumption that is the case and try to argue for that position.  But Lively, it is not a given that you are correct.  And in fact I can make an argument that you are not correct.  Rather, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what all 3000 mentioned in Acts 2:41 received,

For what it is worth, I think a credible argument can be made that Acts 2:41 was in fact limited to the 12 and not to the 120 that was mentioned in Acts 1:15.  Acts 2:1 suggests that one or even several days passed between the events of Acts 1:15-26 and the events in Acts 2:1 and following.  In fact there is reason to believe that the events on Pentecost discussed in Acts had nothing to do with the upper  room of Acts 2 but were in fact elsewhere.

Here again, you can make whatever assumptions you wish in your interpretation, and argue from that point of view.  But the Bible makes no such statement.  You must first answer the question of how much time passed between the events of Acts 1:15 and Pentecost in Acts 2:1

What do you think that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is?

I think that baptism of the Holy Spirit is what each and every Christian receives when the are saved. 

1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

If you wish, I can email you a brief study that I put together.  It is about 4 pages long and I think a bit too much for a forum.

It would be good for you to research the NT and discover for yourself how every believer experienced a subsequent experience with the Holy Spirit, His baptism in power...all occurred after salvation.

I take it that you have a "Pentecostal view" of the Christian and the Holy Spirit.

That is the correct view

I don't think so, but you knew that.

Yep and ...

that is why you're close but no cigar!

Well you do have the cigar, and it stinks. 

More importantly and to the topic

More than immersed I also have the INFILLING of the Holy Spirit and when you have that my friend, you have Everything pertaining to Life and Godliness!

From reading this conversation and implications you have made, it appears to me that you do have an INFILLING of PRIDE.

I take that to mean you do not believe you have the Infilling or do not believe it's necessary?

At any rate

My friend anytime your boast is in The Lord or His Holy Spirit, that is not pride that is actually Faith, knowing who is who, knowing God is He who deserves All the Glory

Those filled with pride are those who go about doing God's work on their own without God's help, without seeking His leading and guidance

So ....

We ask new believers have you been filled with the Holy Spirit.

If they say yes, that is not pride, that is knowing where you stand in regards to your Faith

[The Great Baptizmo]

In Acts 2, they were baptized (in water) in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It couldn't have been that they were Holy Spirit baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Not sure how we got to this point, but...

At Pentecost, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room.

The "gift of the Holy Spirit" was promised to the mob in the street below (Acts 2:38) upon their water baptism.

What makes you think the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room?  The Bible doesn't say that.

What bible are you reading?  

It really doesn't matter which Bible I am reading.  I don't know of a single translation that says that the events of  Acts 2:4 constitute Baptism in the Holy Spirit.  Now you may make the assumption that is the case and try to argue for that position.  But Lively, it is not a given that you are correct.  And in fact I can make an argument that you are not correct.  Rather, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what all 3000 mentioned in Acts 2:41 received,

For what it is worth, I think a credible argument can be made that Acts 2:41 was in fact limited to the 12 and not to the 120 that was mentioned in Acts 1:15.  Acts 2:1 suggests that one or even several days passed between the events of Acts 1:15-26 and the events in Acts 2:1 and following.  In fact there is reason to believe that the events on Pentecost discussed in Acts had nothing to do with the upper  room of Acts 2 but were in fact elsewhere.

Here again, you can make whatever assumptions you wish in your interpretation, and argue from that point of view.  But the Bible makes no such statement.  You must first answer the question of how much time passed between the events of Acts 1:15 and Pentecost in Acts 2:1

What do you think that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is?

I think that baptism of the Holy Spirit is what each and every Christian receives when the are saved.  

1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

If you wish, I can email you a brief study that I put together.  It is about 4 pages long and I think a bit too much for a forum.

It would be good for you to research the NT and discover for yourself how every believer experienced a subsequent experience with the Holy Spirit, His baptism in power...all occurred after salvation.

I take it that you have a "Pentecostal view" of the Christian and the Holy Spirit.

That is the correct view

I don't think so, but you knew that.

Yep and ...

that is why you're close but no cigar!

Well you do have the cigar, and it stinks.  

More importantly and to the topic

More than immersed I also have the INFILLING of the Holy Spirit and when you have that my friend, you have Everything pertaining to Life and Godliness!

From reading this conversation and implications you have made, it appears to me that you do have an INFILLING of PRIDE.

I take that to mean you do not believe you have the Infilling or do not believe it's necessary?

At any rate

My friend anytime your boast is in The Lord or His Holy Spirit, that is not pride that is actually Faith, knowing who is who, knowing God is He who deserves All the Glory

Those filled with pride are those who go about doing God's work on their own without God's help, without seeking His leading and guidance

So ....

We ask new believers have you been filled with the Holy Spirit.

If they say yes, that is not pride, that is knowing where you stand in regards to your Faith

I am not playing to "So you are saying?" or the  "I take you to mean" game.  My comment had nothing to do with my doctrinal views on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but on the pride that is implicit with your postings.

If your boasting was merely in Jesus Christ, I would not have posted, but I believe your boasting, at least in part, is in yourself and the knowledge you believe you have.

[gospel]

In Acts 2, they were baptized (in water) in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It couldn't have been that they were Holy Spirit baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Not sure how we got to this point, but...

At Pentecost, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room.

The "gift of the Holy Spirit" was promised to the mob in the street below (Acts 2:38) upon their water baptism.

What makes you think the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room?  The Bible doesn't say that.

What bible are you reading?  

It really doesn't matter which Bible I am reading.  I don't know of a single translation that says that the events of  Acts 2:4 constitute Baptism in the Holy Spirit.  Now you may make the assumption that is the case and try to argue for that position.  But Lively, it is not a given that you are correct.  And in fact I can make an argument that you are not correct.  Rather, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what all 3000 mentioned in Acts 2:41 received,

For what it is worth, I think a credible argument can be made that Acts 2:41 was in fact limited to the 12 and not to the 120 that was mentioned in Acts 1:15.  Acts 2:1 suggests that one or even several days passed between the events of Acts 1:15-26 and the events in Acts 2:1 and following.  In fact there is reason to believe that the events on Pentecost discussed in Acts had nothing to do with the upper  room of Acts 2 but were in fact elsewhere.

Here again, you can make whatever assumptions you wish in your interpretation, and argue from that point of view.  But the Bible makes no such statement.  You must first answer the question of how much time passed between the events of Acts 1:15 and Pentecost in Acts 2:1

What do you think that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is?

I think that baptism of the Holy Spirit is what each and every Christian receives when the are saved. 

1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

If you wish, I can email you a brief study that I put together.  It is about 4 pages long and I think a bit too much for a forum.

It would be good for you to research the NT and discover for yourself how every believer experienced a subsequent experience with the Holy Spirit, His baptism in power...all occurred after salvation.

I take it that you have a "Pentecostal view" of the Christian and the Holy Spirit.

That is the correct view

I don't think so, but you knew that.

Yep and ...

that is why you're close but no cigar!

Well you do have the cigar, and it stinks. 

More importantly and to the topic

More than immersed I also have the INFILLING of the Holy Spirit and when you have that my friend, you have Everything pertaining to Life and Godliness!

Infilling?  And that is different from baptism or indwelling?  Do you perform miracles with that infilling?  Heal the sick, raise the dead, prophesy the future, make the blind to see or the lame to walk?

Certainly is a difference

As in water it would be the difference between being in immersed in the water or being filled with water

In The Upper Room the disciples were In-filled

They were already baptized before Pentecost


And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive you the Holy Ghost: John 20:22

[gospel]

In Acts 2, they were baptized (in water) in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It couldn't have been that they were Holy Spirit baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Not sure how we got to this point, but...

At Pentecost, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room.

The "gift of the Holy Spirit" was promised to the mob in the street below (Acts 2:38) upon their water baptism.

What makes you think the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room?  The Bible doesn't say that.

What bible are you reading?  

It really doesn't matter which Bible I am reading.  I don't know of a single translation that says that the events of  Acts 2:4 constitute Baptism in the Holy Spirit.  Now you may make the assumption that is the case and try to argue for that position.  But Lively, it is not a given that you are correct.  And in fact I can make an argument that you are not correct.  Rather, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what all 3000 mentioned in Acts 2:41 received,

For what it is worth, I think a credible argument can be made that Acts 2:41 was in fact limited to the 12 and not to the 120 that was mentioned in Acts 1:15.  Acts 2:1 suggests that one or even several days passed between the events of Acts 1:15-26 and the events in Acts 2:1 and following.  In fact there is reason to believe that the events on Pentecost discussed in Acts had nothing to do with the upper  room of Acts 2 but were in fact elsewhere.

Here again, you can make whatever assumptions you wish in your interpretation, and argue from that point of view.  But the Bible makes no such statement.  You must first answer the question of how much time passed between the events of Acts 1:15 and Pentecost in Acts 2:1

What do you think that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is?

I think that baptism of the Holy Spirit is what each and every Christian receives when the are saved.  

1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

If you wish, I can email you a brief study that I put together.  It is about 4 pages long and I think a bit too much for a forum.

It would be good for you to research the NT and discover for yourself how every believer experienced a subsequent experience with the Holy Spirit, His baptism in power...all occurred after salvation.

I take it that you have a "Pentecostal view" of the Christian and the Holy Spirit.

That is the correct view

I don't think so, but you knew that.

Yep and ...

that is why you're close but no cigar!

Well you do have the cigar, and it stinks.  

More importantly and to the topic

More than immersed I also have the INFILLING of the Holy Spirit and when you have that my friend, you have Everything pertaining to Life and Godliness!

From reading this conversation and implications you have made, it appears to me that you do have an INFILLING of PRIDE.

I take that to mean you do not believe you have the Infilling or do not believe it's necessary?

At any rate

My friend anytime your boast is in The Lord or His Holy Spirit, that is not pride that is actually Faith, knowing who is who, knowing God is He who deserves All the Glory

Those filled with pride are those who go about doing God's work on their own without God's help, without seeking His leading and guidance

So ....

We ask new believers have you been filled with the Holy Spirit.

If they say yes, that is not pride, that is knowing where you stand in regards to your Faith

I am not playing to "So you are saying?" or the  "I take you to mean" game.  My comment had nothing to do with my doctrinal views on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but on the pride that is implicit with your postings.

If your boasting was merely in Jesus Christ, I would not have posted, but I believe your boasting, at least in part, is in yourself and the knowledge you believe you have.

So much for what you believe....at least you believe it, I s'pose that's enough for you

I don't believe its pride for someone to state they are infilled especially when the that is basically the topic

But

If it matters that much to you, just in case it is Pride, I will ask the Holy Spirit to show me and if He says so, I will repent...ok?

Or

Is it pride to say that too?   

[Jaime]

Lively, I thought you had stated the baptism of the Holy Spirit WAS salvation, now this?

I never expressed that.

I'm pretty sure Gospel has, so ya'll may not be as like-minded as Gospel thought.

I think we are pretty much like minded however I see the two facets as one or to put another way the two facets are of one Truth

We are baptized "immersed" into the Body

However unlike some of you believe

That baptism qualifies all believers for empowerment from On High such as the 120

For the manifestation of the Spirit, whereby we are empowered to effectively witness, lay hands on the sick, and operate in the Gifts of the Spirit as He leads us in proportion to our faith

So Lively and I do agree!

You guys need to shake the water though...that's where you're stuck

Lively says the Holy Spirit baptism comes after salvation. You say it is what saves. Quite different. Yes you both are non-hydros, but that's about all the agreement that I see.

[larry2]

I don't believe its pride for someone to state they are infilled especially when the that is basically the topic

Dear brother, wouldn't you have better results attempting to explain the virtues, taste, and appearance of a peach to someone on a remote isle that has never seen or tasted anything other than bananas and coconuts? On top of that let's assume they don't even know the language you're speaking, and you're relegated to using gestures instead.

Give it up, you've sown a seed, allow someone else to water, and let God give the increase, for there is nothing hard for Him. He knows banana and coconut languages and those addicted to such things.

[gospel]

I don't believe its pride for someone to state they are infilled especially when the that is basically the topic

Dear brother, wouldn't you have better results attempting to explain the virtues, taste, and appearance of a peach to someone on a remote isle that has never seen or tasted anything other than bananas and coconuts? On top of that let's assume they don't even know the language you're speaking, and you're relegated to using gestures instead.

Give it up, you've sown a seed, allow someone else to water, and let God give the increase, for there is nothing hard for Him. He knows banana and coconut languages and those addicted to such things.

[Lively Stone]

In Acts 2, they were baptized (in water) in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It couldn't have been that they were Holy Spirit baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Not sure how we got to this point, but...

At Pentecost, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room.

The "gift of the Holy Spirit" was promised to the mob in the street below (Acts 2:38) upon their water baptism.

What makes you think the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was received by the 120 in the upper room?  The Bible doesn't say that.

What bible are you reading?  

It really doesn't matter which Bible I am reading.  I don't know of a single translation that says that the events of  Acts 2:4 constitute Baptism in the Holy Spirit.  Now you may make the assumption that is the case and try to argue for that position.  But Lively, it is not a given that you are correct.  And in fact I can make an argument that you are not correct.  Rather, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what all 3000 mentioned in Acts 2:41 received,

For what it is worth, I think a credible argument can be made that Acts 2:41 was in fact limited to the 12 and not to the 120 that was mentioned in Acts 1:15.  Acts 2:1 suggests that one or even several days passed between the events of Acts 1:15-26 and the events in Acts 2:1 and following.  In fact there is reason to believe that the events on Pentecost discussed in Acts had nothing to do with the upper  room of Acts 2 but were in fact elsewhere.

Here again, you can make whatever assumptions you wish in your interpretation, and argue from that point of view.  But the Bible makes no such statement.  You must first answer the question of how much time passed between the events of Acts 1:15 and Pentecost in Acts 2:1

What do you think that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is?

I think that baptism of the Holy Spirit is what each and every Christian receives when the are saved.  

1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

If you wish, I can email you a brief study that I put together.  It is about 4 pages long and I think a bit too much for a forum.

It would be good for you to research the NT and discover for yourself how every believer experienced a subsequent experience with the Holy Spirit, His baptism in power...all occurred after salvation.

I take it that you have a "Pentecostal view" of the Christian and the Holy Spirit.

No. I take my views from the word of God, which is plain in revealing that there is a subsequent baptism of Holy Spirit power after salvation.

[Lively Stone]

Lively, I thought you had stated the baptism of the Holy Spirit WAS salvation, now this?

I never expressed that.

I'm pretty sure Gospel has, so ya'll may not be as like-minded as Gospel thought.

I think we are pretty much like minded however I see the two facets as one or to put another way the two facets are of one Truth

We are baptized "immersed" into the Body

However unlike some of you believe

That baptism qualifies all believers for empowerment from On High such as the 120

For the manifestation of the Spirit, whereby we are empowered to effectively witness, lay hands on the sick, and operate in the Gifts of the Spirit as He leads us in proportion to our faith

So Lively and I do agree!

You guys need to shake the water though...that's where you're stuck

Lively says the Holy Spirit baptism comes after salvation. You say it is what saves. Quite different. Yes you both are non-hydros, but that's about all the agreement that I see.

What the hey is a 'non-hydro'?

We are commanded as believers to be baptized in water. The baptism of the Holy Spirit can occur at any time after salvation. sometimes as in Cornelius' house, it happened before water baptism.

Acts 10:44-48
44 Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the message. 45 The Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles, too. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

   Then Peter asked, 47 "Can anyone object to their being baptized, now that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?

[Jaime]

Lively, when do you say the Holy Spirit was conveyed to the folks in Acts 2? Was it before or after their baptism? (irregardless of the form of that baptism.) I think Gospel's view is that the Spirit baptism is what saved them.  I believe repentence and water baptism was what Peter commanded and that the gift of the Holy Spirit was conveyed following that as the promise was articulated by Peter. In my view a command was given, they complied. In Holy Spirit baptism, it is a totally involuntary phenomenon. It's not something, it seems that can qualify as a compliance to a command.  I assume you differ?

Let's keep it civil. I'm not agruing against your position, I want to understand your position. I am not stupid and you aren't either. You are a disciple and I am. Just wanted to get that out of the way. I really want to discuss, and not feel like I am preaching or being preached to.

I apologize for the non-hydro comment. It was my way of lightening up the discussion. Probably didn't work! I don't believe there is magic in the water as maybe some might think I believe. I believe water baptism is a necessary part of our faith response as is belief of course, repentence, and confessing with our lips his Lordship.

I have acquaintences who I classify as hydrophobics because they refuse to be water baptized since they say they were saved without it. I am not advocating one instant of salvation's conveyance over another, I just know water baptism is integral to the process. Water baptism does not save, but I believe refusing to partake is jeopardizing one's soul. I realize most don't agree with that. So much for my explanation of "what the hey is a non-hydro". Non-hydro is pretty much equivalent to hydrophobic. At any rate, I take it back.

And by the way, I did ask at water baptism and I do have...........................the gift of the Holy Spirit that is. I do believe the Holy Spirit was pre-veniently involved in wooing or drawing me.

[Lively Stone]

Lively, when do you say the Holy Spirit was conveyed to the folks in Acts 2? Was it before or after their baptism? (irregardless of the form of that baptism.) I think Gospel's view is that the Spirit baptism is what saved them.  I believe water baptism was what Peter commanded and that the gift of the Holy Spirit was conveyed following that as the promise was articulated by Peter. In my view a command was given, they complied. In Holy Spirit baptism, it is a totally involuntary phenomenon. It's not something that can qualify as a compliance to a command.  I assume you differ?

Let's keep it civil. I'm not agruing against your position, I want to understand your position. I am not stupid and you aren't either. You are a disciple and I am. Just wanted to get that out of the way. I really want to discuss, and not feel like I am preaching or being preached to.

I apologize for the non-hydro comment. It was my way of lightening up the discussion. Probably didn't work! I don't believe there is magic in the water as maybe some might think I believe. I believe water baptism is a necessary part of our faith response as is belief of course, repentence, and confessing with our lips his Lordship.

I have acquaintences who I classify as hydrophobics because they refuse to be water baptized since they say they were saved without it. I am not advocating one instant of salvation's conveyance over another, I just know water baptism is integral to the process. Water baptism does not save, but I believe refusing to partake is jeopardizing one's soul. I realize most don't agree with that. So much for my explanation of "what the hey is a non-hydro". Non-hydro is pretty much equivalent to hydrophobic. At any rate, I take it back.

And by the way, I did ask at water baptism and I do have...........................the gift of the Holy Spirit that is. I do believe the Holy Spirit was pre-veniently involved in wooing or drawing me.

Pentecost is not salvation. It was subsequent to their salvation, and their water baptism. Rejecting the command of water baptism is a hindrance.

We must all have our own pentecost, where we are empowered and anointed and gifted by Holy Spirit to fulfill the plan of God on our lives with ease and with His power and that will yield success, where those who do not have the Spirit's anointing find themselves working in their own strength.

[Jaime]

If it was subsequent to their salvation, did Peter misspeak when he said repent and be baptized for remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. These folks asked him what to do after they were convinced of their error about the person Jesus. Are you saying the realization of their error was salvation and THEN they got the gift of the Holy Spirit, or was the Holy Spirit baptism the reason for their realization, thus their salvation?

I am not trying to be purposely obtuse, but it seems some difference of the understanding of the sequencing is out there.

Are you saying if some of those folks in Acts 2 had ignored Peter's admonition, they would be hindered and not unsaved?

[Lively Stone]

If it was subsequent to their salvation, did Peter misspeak when he said repent and be baptized for remission os sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. These folks asked him what to do after they were convinced of their error. Are you saying the realization of their error was salvation and THEN they got the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I am not trying to be purposely obtuse, but it seems some difference of the understanding of the sequencing is out there.

Are you saying if some of those folks in Acts 2 had ignored Peter's admonition, they would be hindered and not unsaved?

I don't think that God considers sequence that important, as I expressed by the scriptures I used. some people receive the anointing before they are baptized, some come up out of the water speaking in tongues and others receive it later. I received my infilling years after I was saved and baptized. I believe that if I was taught correctly, I would have submitted to the Holy Spirit's baptism many years sooner than I did.

If the disciples had rejected the offer of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, yes, they would be foregoing the power to live the life they were called to live in Christ. They would remain saved, but the power to do what they would have been called to do would be less, and the calling would be difficult, and thus a hindrance to God.

[Jaime]

I

If it was subsequent to their salvation, did Peter misspeak when he said repent and be baptized for remission os sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. These folks asked him what to do after they were convinced of their error. Are you saying the realization of their error was salvation and THEN they got the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I am not trying to be purposely obtuse, but it seems some difference of the understanding of the sequencing is out there.

Are you saying if some of those folks in Acts 2 had ignored Peter's admonition, they would be hindered and not unsaved?

I don't think that God considers sequence that important, as I expressed by the scriptures I used. some people receive the anointing before they are baptized, some come up out of the water speaking in tongues and others receive it later. I received my infilling years after I was saved and baptized. I believe that if I was taught correctly, I would have submitted to the Holy Spirit's baptism many years sooner than I did.

If the disciples had rejected the offer of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, yes, they would be foregoing the power to live the life they were called to live in Christ. They would remain saved, but the power to do what they would have been called to do would be less, and the calling would be difficult, and thus a hindrance to God.

I realize the sequences in the scriptures you quoted were different. My question though is what is your opinion of the sequence in Acts 2?

Also, I was asking what if the disciples rejected the water baptism, not the Holy Spirit baptism.  Godly sorrow infused by the Holy Spirit leads to repentence. Is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit you are referring to? If someone is sorrowful for what they have done, but it doesn't lead to repentence, it must be worldly sorrow.

[Lively Stone]

I

If it was subsequent to their salvation, did Peter misspeak when he said repent and be baptized for remission os sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. These folks asked him what to do after they were convinced of their error. Are you saying the realization of their error was salvation and THEN they got the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I am not trying to be purposely obtuse, but it seems some difference of the understanding of the sequencing is out there.

Are you saying if some of those folks in Acts 2 had ignored Peter's admonition, they would be hindered and not unsaved?

I don't think that God considers sequence that important, as I expressed by the scriptures I used. some people receive the anointing before they are baptized, some come up out of the water speaking in tongues and others receive it later. I received my infilling years after I was saved and baptized. I believe that if I was taught correctly, I would have submitted to the Holy Spirit's baptism many years sooner than I did.

If the disciples had rejected the offer of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, yes, they would be foregoing the power to live the life they were called to live in Christ. They would remain saved, but the power to do what they would have been called to do would be less, and the calling would be difficult, and thus a hindrance to God.

I realize the sequences in the scriptures you quoted were different. My question though is what is your opinion of the sequence in Acts 2?

The sequence of events of Acts 2 were the norm, in my opinion.

Also, I was asking what if the disciples rejected the water baptism, not the Holy Spirit baptism.

I don't believe that if anyone rejects anything that God commands or offers, that He will bless us with the next great thing He has for us. A Christian just stops in his growth at the point of his disobedience in anything.

Godly sorrow infused by the Holy Spirit leads to repentence. Is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit you are referring to? If someone is sorrowful for what they have done, but it doesn't lead to repentence, it must be worldly sorrow.

What you are referring to is the ministry of the Holy Spirit working in and through us to sanctify us, and to help us grow in God to the image of Christ. Every Christian benefits by that work of the Spirit, but that is not part of the working of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in a life.

[Jaime]

Thank you for your responses Lively, but I'm not following that the sequence of Acts 2 is the norm, when we both agree that the sequences have been different in scripture. What do you mean by "the norm". What WAS the sequence in your opinion?

[Lively Stone]

Thank you for your responses Lively, but I'm not following that the sequence of Acts 2 is the norm, when we both agree that the sequences have been different in scripture. What do you mean by "the norm". What WAS the sequence in your opinion?

Salvation, water baptism, then Holy Spirit baptism. It is obviously not that way for everyone, but it is for most Christians. I have met many people who receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit before water baptism, however...mainly because everything, including their salvation was a whirlwind!

It certainly doesn't matter to God at all in what order the baptism comes.

[Jaime]

So for my understanding, your opinion of the sequence in Acts 2 in response to Peter's sermon:

   Believed or were pierced in their heart and were resultantly saved.

   Repented

   Submitted to water baptism

   THEN experienced Holy Spirit baptism

One last questions I have is, when is the gift of the holy spirit conveyed in this passage relative to Peter's answer to their question? Is the gift of the Holy Spirit different than the baptism of the Holy Spirit in your opinion? And also, Peter said in effect, if you do 2 things, repent and be baptized, then you will get 2 things, remission of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Where does remission of sin fit in your sequence? I am not trying to trap or corner you. I want to fully understand your view, because honestly, I don't think we are that far apart.

[Lively Stone]

So for my understanding, your opinion of the sequence in Acts 2 in response to Peter's sermon:

   Believed or were pierced in their heart and were resultantly saved.

   Repented

   Submitted to water baptism

   THEN experienced Holy Spirit baptism

One last questions I have is, when is the gift of the holy spirit conveyed in this passage relative to Peter's answer to their question? Is the gift of the Holy Spirit different than the baptism of the Holy Spirit in your opinion? And also, Peter said in effect, if you do 2 things, repent and be baptized, then you will get 2 things, remission of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Where does remission of sin fit in your sequence? I am not trying to trap or corner you. I want to fully understand your view, because honestly, I don't think we are that far apart.

We have remission from all sins when we repent and are saved.

The Holy Spirit comes and lives in each one of us at the time of salvation. Water baptism seals that promise.

[Jaime]

So for my understanding, your opinion of the sequence in Acts 2 in response to Peter's sermon:

   Believed or were pierced in their heart and were resultantly saved.

   Repented

   Submitted to water baptism

   THEN experienced Holy Spirit baptism

One last questions I have is, when is the gift of the holy spirit conveyed in this passage relative to Peter's answer to their question? Is the gift of the Holy Spirit different than the baptism of the Holy Spirit in your opinion? And also, Peter said in effect, if you do 2 things, repent and be baptized, then you will get 2 things, remission of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Where does remission of sin fit in your sequence? I am not trying to trap or corner you. I want to fully understand your view, because honestly, I don't think we are that far apart.

We have remission from all sins when we repent and are saved.

The Holy Spirit comes and lives in each one of us at the time of salvation. Water baptism seals that promise.

Peter says repent and BE baptized and we will have remission of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't seem reasonable to rise up and BE Holy Spirit baptized. All indications in scripture seem to point to a spontaneous involuntary event, not controlled by a will or the act of BE-ING...........My opinion is that upon repentence and water baptism wherein the gift of the Holy Spirit is conveyed. Our sins are remitted. Does this comport with other examples? Obviously not as you have pointed out. Some call that Holy Spirit baptism, I gather you do not. Your opinion is that Holy Spirit baptism is something entirely different and follows all that, right? i really really and truly believe a lot of the rub between some of us is really semantical and perspective driven.

In summary, would you explain how we decide to BE Holy Spirit baptized. This is why I believe the baptism in Acts 2 is water and the Holy Spirit is conveyed there, making it entirely different than John's baptism.

By the way the tenor of our discussion tonight is way way better than most of this thread has been. Thank you.

[Lively Stone]

We receive our gifts, but we don't receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit when He comes UPON us in His baptizing power.

When I was saved, I received spiritual gifts. They were identified, but it wasn't until I was baptized in the Holy Spirit that I began to really move in them with power and with results. It wasn't until then that I could speak in tongues, and pray with power. That is the reason why all of the disciples and every believer in the NT experienced this baptism. That is one of the purposes of it---to enable us to do the things that God ordains for us to do with ease and with fruitful results. whereas people who would try to do the same things without the anointing would find it a struggle and would not have the increase and results that an anointed man or woman of God would have.

The how of it is mostly up to us. We need to ask Him for it. Some people have already positioned themselves for it without even so much as asking, however! I love it when that happens! Many people receive it by the laying on of hands, and others receive it just by earnestly asking God for it, and seeking it.

[Jaime]

We receive our gifts, but we don't receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit when He comes UPON us in His baptizing power.

When I was saved, I received spiritual gifts. They were identified, but it wasn't until I was baptized in the Holy Spirit that I began to really move in them with power and with results. It wasn't until then that I could speak in tongues, and pray with power. That is the reason why all of the disciples and every believer in the NT experienced this baptism. That is one of the purposes of it---to enable us to do the things that God ordains for us to do with ease and with fruitful results. whereas people who would try to do the same things without the anointing would find it a struggle and would not have the increase and results that an anointed man or woman of God would have.

The how of it is mostly up to us. We need to ask Him for it. Some people have already positioned themselves for it without even so much as asking, however! I love it when that happens! Many people receive it by the laying on of hands, and others receive it just by earnestly asking God for it, and seeking it.

Thanks Lively. where in Acts 2 is their Holy Spirit baptism, as you describe after salvation, received? Or is it in this case one in the same with the gift of the Holy Spirit?  My problem is, if the "baptism" Peter commanded was Holy Spirit Baptism, it seems odd and out of order if they were to be Holy Spirit Baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Kinda backwards it seems? And again, Holy Spirit Baptism as I understand, is a spontaneous involuntary event, not something one can grit their teeth and BE Holy Spirit Baptized. I'm not arguing against your Holy Spirit baptism, I just contend that these people in Acts 2 were water baptized, you say AFTER they were saved. OK. And you say they were Holy Spirit baptized afterthat. I don't see that last part. Am I misreading you?

[Lively Stone]

We receive our gifts, but we don't receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit when He comes UPON us in His baptizing power.

When I was saved, I received spiritual gifts. They were identified, but it wasn't until I was baptized in the Holy Spirit that I began to really move in them with power and with results. It wasn't until then that I could speak in tongues, and pray with power. That is the reason why all of the disciples and every believer in the NT experienced this baptism. That is one of the purposes of it---to enable us to do the things that God ordains for us to do with ease and with fruitful results. whereas people who would try to do the same things without the anointing would find it a struggle and would not have the increase and results that an anointed man or woman of God would have.

The how of it is mostly up to us. We need to ask Him for it. Some people have already positioned themselves for it without even so much as asking, however! I love it when that happens! Many people receive it by the laying on of hands, and others receive it just by earnestly asking God for it, and seeking it.

Thanks Lively. where in Acts 2 is their Holy Spirit baptism, as you describe after salvation, received? Or is it in this case one in the same with the gift of the Holy Spirit?  My problem is, if the "baptism" Peter commanded was Holy Spirit Baptism, it seems odd and out of order if they were to be Holy Spirit Baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Kinda backwards it seems? And again, Holy Spirit Baptism as I understand, is a spontaneous involuntary event, not something one can grit their teeth and BE Holy Spirit Baptized. I'm not arguing against your Holy Spirit baptism, I just contend that these people in Acts 2 were water baptized, you say AFTER they were saved. OK. And you say they were Holy Spirit baptized afterthat. I don't see that last part. Am I misreading you?

Acts 2:1-4

The Holy Spirit Comes

1 On the day of Pentecost all the believers were meeting together in one place. 2 Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting. 3 Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them. 4 And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.

No water there! why would these water baptized disciples need it again?

[Jaime]

Not talking about the disciples, I'm talking about the 3000.

[Lively Stone]

Not talking about the disciples, I'm talking about the 3000.

There is no mention of the 3000 having received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at that point.

We can be assured, however, at that this, which is the inception of the Church of Jesus Christ in the world, that Jesus Christ would ensure that all believers would experience this baptism, for it was from these that great power to heal and cast out demons and raise the dead sprang forth. We cannot do these things without Holy Spirit's anointng in us.

[Jimmy]

We receive our gifts, but we don't receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit when He comes UPON us in His baptizing power.

When I was saved, I received spiritual gifts. They were identified, but it wasn't until I was baptized in the Holy Spirit that I began to really move in them with power and with results. It wasn't until then that I could speak in tongues, and pray with power. That is the reason why all of the disciples and every believer in the NT experienced this baptism. That is one of the purposes of it---to enable us to do the things that God ordains for us to do with ease and with fruitful results. whereas people who would try to do the same things without the anointing would find it a struggle and would not have the increase and results that an anointed man or woman of God would have.

The how of it is mostly up to us. We need to ask Him for it. Some people have already positioned themselves for it without even so much as asking, however! I love it when that happens! Many people receive it by the laying on of hands, and others receive it just by earnestly asking God for it, and seeking it.

Thanks Lively. where in Acts 2 is their Holy Spirit baptism, as you describe after salvation, received? Or is it in this case one in the same with the gift of the Holy Spirit?  My problem is, if the "baptism" Peter commanded was Holy Spirit Baptism, it seems odd and out of order if they were to be Holy Spirit Baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Kinda backwards it seems? And again, Holy Spirit Baptism as I understand, is a spontaneous involuntary event, not something one can grit their teeth and BE Holy Spirit Baptized. I'm not arguing against your Holy Spirit baptism, I just contend that these people in Acts 2 were water baptized, you say AFTER they were saved. OK. And you say they were Holy Spirit baptized afterthat. I don't see that last part. Am I misreading you?

Acts 2:1-4

The Holy Spirit Comes

1 On the day of Pentecost all the believers were meeting together in one place. 2 Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting. 3 Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them. 4 And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.

No water there! why would these water baptized disciples need it again?

And no salvation there either.  At least the Bible does not say anything about any one being saved in Acts 2:1-4.

[Jimmy]

Not talking about the disciples, I'm talking about the 3000.

There is no mention of the 3000 having received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at that point.

We can be assured, however, at that this, which is the inception of the Church of Jesus Christ in the world, that Jesus Christ would ensure that all believers would experience this baptism, for it was from these that great power to heal and cast out demons and raise the dead sprang forth. We cannot do these things without Holy Spirit's anointng in us.

I haven't heard of a single person after the apostles who had the power to raise the dead.  I seriously doubt that there are any who can actually heal.  I don't know of a single documented incident of anyone healing a broken bone, making the blind to see, the lame to walk let alone raising the dead.

[Lively Stone]

We receive our gifts, but we don't receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit when He comes UPON us in His baptizing power.

When I was saved, I received spiritual gifts. They were identified, but it wasn't until I was baptized in the Holy Spirit that I began to really move in them with power and with results. It wasn't until then that I could speak in tongues, and pray with power. That is the reason why all of the disciples and every believer in the NT experienced this baptism. That is one of the purposes of it---to enable us to do the things that God ordains for us to do with ease and with fruitful results. whereas people who would try to do the same things without the anointing would find it a struggle and would not have the increase and results that an anointed man or woman of God would have.

The how of it is mostly up to us. We need to ask Him for it. Some people have already positioned themselves for it without even so much as asking, however! I love it when that happens! Many people receive it by the laying on of hands, and others receive it just by earnestly asking God for it, and seeking it.

Thanks Lively. where in Acts 2 is their Holy Spirit baptism, as you describe after salvation, received? Or is it in this case one in the same with the gift of the Holy Spirit?  My problem is, if the "baptism" Peter commanded was Holy Spirit Baptism, it seems odd and out of order if they were to be Holy Spirit Baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Kinda backwards it seems? And again, Holy Spirit Baptism as I understand, is a spontaneous involuntary event, not something one can grit their teeth and BE Holy Spirit Baptized. I'm not arguing against your Holy Spirit baptism, I just contend that these people in Acts 2 were water baptized, you say AFTER they were saved. OK. And you say they were Holy Spirit baptized afterthat. I don't see that last part. Am I misreading you?

Acts 2:1-4

The Holy Spirit Comes

1 On the day of Pentecost all the believers were meeting together in one place. 2 Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting. 3 Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them. 4 And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.

No water there! why would these water baptized disciples need it again?

And no salvation there either.  At least the Bible does not say anything about any one being saved in Acts 2:1-4.

LOL! Does it have to? they were already all believers there. Let's be realistic.

[Lively Stone]

Not talking about the disciples, I'm talking about the 3000.

There is no mention of the 3000 having received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at that point.

We can be assured, however, at that this, which is the inception of the Church of Jesus Christ in the world, that Jesus Christ would ensure that all believers would experience this baptism, for it was from these that great power to heal and cast out demons and raise the dead sprang forth. We cannot do these things without Holy Spirit's anointng in us.

I haven't heard of a single person after the apostles who had the power to raise the dead.  I seriously doubt that there are any who can actually heal.  I don't know of a single documented incident of anyone healing a broken bone, making the blind to see, the lame to walk let alone raising the dead.

Too bad. I have. People do get raised from the dead still, and people are still being healed every day. I and millions of other Christians have witnessed such things. The power of God to do such things has never left us. It is Jesus who heals. Do you not believe He heals?

[Jimmy]

We receive our gifts, but we don't receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit when He comes UPON us in His baptizing power.

When I was saved, I received spiritual gifts. They were identified, but it wasn't until I was baptized in the Holy Spirit that I began to really move in them with power and with results. It wasn't until then that I could speak in tongues, and pray with power. That is the reason why all of the disciples and every believer in the NT experienced this baptism. That is one of the purposes of it---to enable us to do the things that God ordains for us to do with ease and with fruitful results. whereas people who would try to do the same things without the anointing would find it a struggle and would not have the increase and results that an anointed man or woman of God would have.

The how of it is mostly up to us. We need to ask Him for it. Some people have already positioned themselves for it without even so much as asking, however! I love it when that happens! Many people receive it by the laying on of hands, and others receive it just by earnestly asking God for it, and seeking it.

Thanks Lively. where in Acts 2 is their Holy Spirit baptism, as you describe after salvation, received? Or is it in this case one in the same with the gift of the Holy Spirit?  My problem is, if the "baptism" Peter commanded was Holy Spirit Baptism, it seems odd and out of order if they were to be Holy Spirit Baptized in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Kinda backwards it seems? And again, Holy Spirit Baptism as I understand, is a spontaneous involuntary event, not something one can grit their teeth and BE Holy Spirit Baptized. I'm not arguing against your Holy Spirit baptism, I just contend that these people in Acts 2 were water baptized, you say AFTER they were saved. OK. And you say they were Holy Spirit baptized afterthat. I don't see that last part. Am I misreading you?

Acts 2:1-4

The Holy Spirit Comes

1 On the day of Pentecost all the believers were meeting together in one place. 2 Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting. 3 Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them. 4 And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.

No water there! why would these water baptized disciples need it again?

And no salvation there either.  At least the Bible does not say anything about any one being saved in Acts 2:1-4.

LOL! Does it have to? they were already all believers there. Let's be realistic.

LOL!  Yes let's be realistic.  In truth, I do not know what translation You are using but it is certainly a very poor translation.  None of the major translations says "all believers" in Acts 2:1.  Moreover, there is no reason to require one be saved in order for them to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

But more to the point, you asked "why would these water baptized disciples need it again?"  If you are referring to their water baptism being the baptism of John, you should know that the [water] baptism of John and the [water] baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ are not the same.  In the [water] baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, in addition to the forgiveness of sin which was given in John's baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit is given.

[Jimmy]

So for my understanding, your opinion of the sequence in Acts 2 in response to Peter's sermon:

   Believed or were pierced in their heart and were resultantly saved.

   Repented

   Submitted to water baptism

   THEN experienced Holy Spirit baptism

One last questions I have is, when is the gift of the holy spirit conveyed in this passage relative to Peter's answer to their question? Is the gift of the Holy Spirit different than the baptism of the Holy Spirit in your opinion? And also, Peter said in effect, if you do 2 things, repent and be baptized, then you will get 2 things, remission of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Where does remission of sin fit in your sequence? I am not trying to trap or corner you. I want to fully understand your view, because honestly, I don't think we are that far apart.

We have remission from all sins when we repent and are saved.

No.  It is just that sort of misinterpretation that leads you astray.  We are saved when we have our sins forgiven and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 

The Holy Spirit comes and lives in each one of us at the time of salvation. Water baptism seals that promise.[/b]

It is the Holy Spirit that is the seal.  It is in water baptism that the repentant believer has his sins forgiven and receives the gift of the Holy Spirit which is the seal.

[Jimmy]

Not talking about the disciples, I'm talking about the 3000.

There is no mention of the 3000 having received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at that point.

We can be assured, however, at that this, which is the inception of the Church of Jesus Christ in the world, that Jesus Christ would ensure that all believers would experience this baptism, for it was from these that great power to heal and cast out demons and raise the dead sprang forth. We cannot do these things without Holy Spirit's anointng in us.

I haven't heard of a single person after the apostles who had the power to raise the dead.  I seriously doubt that there are any who can actually heal.  I don't know of a single documented incident of anyone healing a broken bone, making the blind to see, the lame to walk let alone raising the dead.

Too bad. I have. People do get raised from the dead still, and people are still being healed every day. I and millions of other Christians have witnessed such things. The power of God to do such things has never left us. It is Jesus who heals. Do you not believe He heals?

Do I believe that He, Jesus, heals?  Yes.  Do I believe that you heal?      No.

And I seriously doubt that you can do any of the miracles you spoke about. Perhaps you should study the Scriptures to understand better  just what the purpose was for the miracles of the apostles, and Jesus before them.