WE'RE ALL IN HARM'S WAY: A THEOLOGY OF WAR

[boringoldguy]

Janine -

I want our side to win.  I want us to win fast and I want us to win big.

Before it started I worried that maybe we ought to wait.  Now that we've found out the Russians have been sneaking weapons to them in U.N. "humanitarian" shipments, I'm satisfied that, if anything, we waited too long.  Giving them more time just would have let the Russians (and I bet the French and Germans) time to sneak in more weapons.

And after we win, I want us to send the United Nations packing.
I don't think it can be reformed;  the members of the Security Council were just using their positions to help Iraq violate resolutions that their own governments voted for.

And I also don't much like these protesters.   I didn't like them back during the Vietnam war, and I like them less now.  

How's that for a rant?

Well, the problem here is, I don't think Sadam is talking about the god that we know anyways. He has his own and it is not the One and only One that we all know. He may think God is on his side but if he is it proves that it isn't the God of us.                                                                                                This article was a good one and really seemed to help humble me too.We are a great nation, but are nothing if we don't have our Father in Heaven right by our side and in our hearts. May God be with our efforts and be with our leaders! May he bless those who are in harms way of this war and those who are home praying for all of them also, including those who make Iraq as their home. May they see that through God's Son Jesus Christ that they all have the Peace, the true "Peace that passes all understanding"!     :amen:  Memmy

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (patriciaredstone @ Mar. 25 2003,2:12)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Memmy -- Sadaam's God is the God of Abraham ... just like ours. They call him Allah, we call him Father, the Jews call him Yahweh ... but God is God anyway you call him. They, in their own way, worship the historic God we read about in the Old Testament. Now, we might not like the way they worship our God ... but it is the SAME God. And it is that God who will decide the outcome of this war. We can only watch and listen and pray for whatever our soul desires. God will find a way to make sense of the whole ridiculous mess.[/quote]
The same word "Allah" that Muslims use for God is the same word the Christians and Jews use in their Arabic translations of the Bible, or so I have read.

[jarschqua]

also note that muslims don't believe either the OT nor the NT to be acceptable places to learn about who God is. if allah was the same God there'd be no problem with that, right?


[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The essence of Islaam is to accept no deity except Allaah. It is naturally important, then, to understand Allaah as precisely as possible within our limited abilities. This understanding is to be based only on the Qur'aan and Sunnah. Our understanding of the Lord of the universe is to be derived from no other sources beyond these two. We are not permitted to go beyond the description of Allaah contained in the Qur'aan and Sunnah, and we are also not permitted to deny anything in them concerning Him. [/quote]

[crocless aussie]

And they say the age of miracles has ceased - an Irishman made sense!

Just one correction - Bill Gates already thinks he runs the world.  I just hope Micro$oft isn't putting the software into the "smart" weapons.

[duckman]

Booty,

I read Ron's article and felt like he did a pretty good job of stating his position.  I would disagree with him on some particular points:

1.  Regarding the verses (oft quoted for this war) from Romans 13, I see these more as an admonition for Christians to obey our civil government.  I see the portions about submitting to authority and the threat of physical punishment as having to do with obeying the laws of your own country or risk facing the music.  I cannot see this as any justification for waging a war with another country, although, apparently Ron (and perhaps some here) can make the leap.

2.  Like you (though I love this land greatly) I don't see the USA as God's righteous arm.  We are indeed a secular nation, with a great many Christians living in it.  We have a president now who is a Christian, of a more fundamental nature than those in the past with the same claim of Christianity.  However, this still does not make us (or President Bush) God's righteous arm.

As to Ron's statement about the EU, I can see a basic view in the States of the bulk of European countries being much more secular than the U.S.  I don't necessarily agree with that, but I can understand that the conclusion does get drawn.

Booty, I'm convinced that something needed to be done about Sadaam.  I think I would have prefered a covert op (or several of them) to war, but sometimes I am unsure, though I would lean more towards not having started the war to begin with.

Regardless of my feelings on that, after reading Ron's article, I did not get any impression that he would think me less of a Christian because I believed differently from him.  I just didn't see that in his article at all.  In fact, if I remember right Ron pointed out that we are all just guilty, stinking sinnners.  Sure didn't seem very judgemental (from an "I'm a better Christian than you" perspective).

Booty, thank you for your perspective on all of this.  I know as an American I often have an inward view and a mistaken idea of how the world views us here.  You help me see that my view of the U.S. is not necessarily everyone else's view.

I will continue to pray along with you, Booty, that this will be over soon, that God will protect those involved (especially the children), and that the Lord will come quickly.

In Him,

Duckman

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Booty @ Mar. 26 2003,08:07)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I also am tired of being presented with the God's righteous arm theory form various yanks. It at times appears if you are not a card carrying right wing republican you are some kind of pinko commie atheist. I believe that makes me hypersensitive, I apologize for that.[/quote]
I agreed with much of Ron's article:  the discussion on guiding principles for a just war, statements like war is born of hatred, war is us at our worst, problems with one sinful group attempting to thwart another sinful group, etc.   Very insightful.

Mixed in his great message, though, are these inflamatory steroetypical statements.  For example: "secularists are not accomodating of the idea that evil exists..." which Ron follows with.."What if we think Saddam is a good guy...plus he has a lot of oil money and makes a pretty good trade partner".  Ron implies that secularists think Saddam is a "good guy" and secularists would condone evil for oil.  ?

I believe in separation of church and state.  This means I believe in a secular gov.   Believing in separation of church and state does not equal thinking Saddam is a good guy and oil money makes him a good trade partner.  

I know from other articles that the trend is to generalize.  For example, Democrats are not Christians, people who believe in separation of church and state equals thinking Saddam is a "good guy" (ie condone evil).   I think these generalizations unnecessarily demonize and don't serve a useful purpose.   If someone can explain the usefullness of these statements, please edify me.  

I was in sunday school yesterday.  The topic evolved to war and reached a cresendo of war support.  A wonderful Christian lady who I think very highly of mentioned under her breath...anyone not in support of war should LEAVE the country!   It was amened by a others sitting beside me.  I was really proud of myself for biting my tongue.  I know this lady means well but what she was unknowing doing was judging my beliefs as un-American and with all this occuring in church...I felt judged as un-Christian.  

I'm glad to have my God as the only judge that counts.  I can weather the wanna be judges with plenty of prayers for God's strength.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (patriciaredstone @ Mar. 26 2003,10:21)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Ron's article is what I have heard called, "crunchy conservative". Rather being what you expect -- a chocolaty outside with a caramel cream interior -- he throws in some unexpected "crunchie" ingredients which make the thing chewy and stay in a little longer and go down the with less discernment about the actual candy and more distraction about the nature of the crunchies. Before you have all of your questions answered, you've swallowed the whole thing![/quote]
Thanks for explaining, Patricia.

I had such mixed feelings as I read the article.  At first, I mistakenly thought I was reading a balance of view on warfare versus previous articles on GM that were only supportive of war.  Then, I would get caught off guard by the mix of crunchies.  Bottomline, I was really confused!  

For all I know, this war is just.  I certainly am not in a position to know the complete truth.   For the life of me, though, I will never understand anyone being excited about war or seemingly taking it lightly or absolutely knowing it is right.    Ron mixes the discussion of gravity of war with what seems to be the idea that this war can be nothing else but just.   The world just isn't that black and white to me.  My opinion doesn't make me less American or less Christian.

[kmv]

These were the most interesting passages in the article, at least to me:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]We are instructed by scripture to respect the views of others who respect scripture. For instance, the Conscientious Objector can open a Bible and present a very persuasive case for their position not to kill another human--- under any circumstance! Jesus said: "If your enemy strikes you, turn the other cheek.

[Bon Voyage]

I don't want to throw out the Old Testament or the words of Jesus Christ.  They are both the words of God (2 Tim. 3:16).

[gbShorty]

:amen:

[janine]

Yeah, what Ron said.

********************************************

Question:
You may be like me, and wish we'd get our fingers out of so many international pies.
You may also be like me, and wish we'd do our best to take down (yes, take down, as a wolf does a caribou) more than just Saddam.
You may be like me- either a genius, able to suspend two equally urgent and "equally opposite"  :thinking:  ideas in the mind simultaneously-
Or else, like me, apparently insane for thinking opposite things... :uhh:

But, no matter who you're like....  Now that we ARE over there in the midst of it...

Which side do you want to win?!?

[charlie]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Which side do you want to win?!?
[/quote]

God's.

But then again, that outcome is inevitable.

It's funny, but Saddam has publicly stated several times since the war started that God will give them victory. This war has turned into quite an interesting theological experiment.

[patriciaredstone]

Memmy -- Sadaam's God is the God of Abraham ... just like ours. They call him Allah, we call him Father, the Jews call him Yahweh ... but God is God anyway you call him. They, in their own way, worship the historic God we read about in the Old Testament. Now, we might not like the way they worship our God ... but it is the SAME God. And it is that God who will decide the outcome of this war. We can only watch and listen and pray for whatever our soul desires. God will find a way to make sense of the whole ridiculous mess.

[jarschqua]

i'd have to disagree prs...
this is a quote from chapter 112 of the quran[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.
Say (O Muhammad) He is God the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone." [/quote]
hard for that to be the same God, if Christ is God's only begotten Son.

the Institute of Islamic Information and Education says:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The concept that God rested in the seventh day of creation, that God wrestled with one of His soldiers, or that God is incarnate in any human being are considered blasphemy from the Islamic point of view. [/quote]
is Christ not God incarnate?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"God has not taken to Himself any son, nor is there any god with Him: For then each god would have taken of that which he created and some of them would have risen up over others." (23:91) [/quote]
no Son? this certainly is not the same God of Christianity. just because islam is monotheistic doesn't make it have the same God.
this is the god named Allah:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him - (He is) above having a son." (4:171) [/quote]

whatever thing it is that muslims revere is "above having a son" and is not "three" (Father, Son, Spirit - the very basic understanding we have of God's makeup), and is not the same at all as our God or the Yahweh of the original olive tree Judah.

whether or not the word "allah" is the same in different books, doesn't make for the same diety, as the very nature of allah is nothing like what we know of Yahweh or Father...

Muslims teach that the God they worship is the same God worshiped by Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.  The Bible became corrupted over time and false scriptures were written declaring Jesus was God.

[Booty]

Back to the article and the topic?

Carlson makes some very judgemental condemnations in his article, but then it is an emotional issue. One in particular I take hearty exception to.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]the entire glut of secular nations comprising the European Commonwealth[/quote]

Secular nations? Sorry but in accoprdance with it's own constitution, the United States of America is a Secular nation. While the Republic of Ireland is not. I quote from the constitution of the Republic of Ireland,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND


In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,

We, the people of Éire,

Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,

Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,

And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,

Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

[/quote]

Ireland is indeed a member of the European Common wealth as Carlson inaccurately calls the Common Market of the European Union and Ireland is not in agreement with the form of the war in Iraq.

That does not make Ireland a secular nation, especially in the context of the article as Carlson has presented it. In the article, Carlson leaves one with the impression that if one is not in agreement with the way this war is being pursued, one is less of a Christian in some perverse way.

Even gross perversion of Scripture does not support this.

Being in opposition to this war does not make a nation secular, nor does it make a person any less Christian.  Nor does it mean that one supports the evil of Saddam Hussein.

It simply means some prefer a different path to pursue.

Why a different path?

Let me give one single reason. To preserve the credibility of the United Nations. Why?

It must be wonderful to be so powerful that you can act alone. It must be really special to say, "We will do this unilaterally" and mean it.

We, Ireland are not that powerful. We cannot make war on another nation with impunity as the USA can. We must live within a structured framework which the United Nations provides.

Analagous to what you enjoy in the USA with your constitution.  As individuals you do not have the power to protect yourselves from stronger forces, so you have joined together in a society where the society protects you, your police, fire, army etc. Now continuing the analogy, imagine if one of your neighbours becomes more powerful than the police. Impossible?  Not really, imagine if Bill Gates decided to hire his own private army, would he not be able to become more powerful than the police of the town he lives in?

So Bill Gates then decides he is the law of the land. Fine as long as he is wiping out bad guys... or is it? Bill Gates is now outside of the fabric of the society. The cost of wiping out the bad guys has become a matter of his sole discretion.  Still OK? Remember, YOU NO LONGER HAVE A VOICE. So what happens when Bill decides your neighbour is the next bad guy on the list and Bill's Army will be mowing down you and yours to get at your neighbour?

I sit here now with a madman for a President who is cheering on Saddam Hussein and roundly condemning the USA. A fool who has decided the Colombian FARC are his long lost soul mates and for all we know may be helping train Al Queda on the isle of Margarita. He is not here because we want him there, but he is there none the less.

So we are potential candidates for the axis of terror list as well, just give El Loco enough time and he will earn us top billing.

So how do I feel when I see bombs raining down on Iraq? How do I feel when I see the pictures of the children in the hospitals. Collateral damage to be sure. Collateral damage caused by the smartest munitions possible by brave men using the utmost caution. But wee bairn none the less with their wee limbs blown off.

Collateral damage? Allow me to borrow a slogan,

It's not Collateral Damage, it's a CHILD!!!

How do I feel when I watch the flock of wee bairn scarmbling up the hill for their Sunday school with their wee legs pumping and their wee arms flying, knowing that just one very smart bomb, a bleedin genius of a bomb, could do it's job, take out it's target and also leave those wee arms and legs in bloody stumps when El LOco has finally earned us top billing on the list?

I feel like a better way should be found within the structure of the United Nations. Now does that make me less of a Christian Mr. Carlson?

[Booty]

BBC is now reporting a USA strike, one, possibly two missles, has hit a public market in Bagdhad. 15 dead so far, reports still coming in. CNN is not touching the footage yet.

Pray with me, please pray with me.


Dear Lord forgive us. Forgive us our cruel cold hearts. Forgive us when we simply cannot live in peace and find ourselves once again immersed in the horror of war.

Forgive the leaders who have failed to maintain the peace. Forgive us that we have not the patience nor the humility necessary to persuade our neighbour to live by our side in harmony.

Protect the young warriors as they go forth in battle. Protect them as their bright young eyes develop the distant stare that sees no horizon. Protect them as they engage one another in mortal combat.

Lord, dear Lord, Abba, Shaddai, Jehova or Allah, by whatever name we call you, bend your ear to our clamour as we beseech you, please come soon Lord. Please come soon.

We're sorry Lord, so sorry. We fail you in our weakness as we cannot live in peace. Our lust for blood simply runs to deep Lord, our thirst for power is too strong Lord and though the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak Lord. Lord we have failed so miserably with our pitiful tragic efforts to bring about a paradise here on earth, please Lord hasten your paradise for us.

Lord those who are dying in our latest atrocity, guard them to you Lord. We would pray that they had come to know you before their lives were snuffed out so cruelly. The children Lord, gather them to your bosom Lord and wipe away their tears of horror. Smother their screams of terror in your chest Lord, wipe their fevered brows and still their trembles.

Lord forgive us.

Amen

[Booty]

Duck,

I know my brother and I guess I am just tired of absolutism. I know here I have been spending all to much time inserting myself physically between antagonists with nothing more than the Bible and His love to protect me.

I also am tired of being presented with the God's righteous arm theory form various yanks. It at times appears if you are not a card carrying right wing republican you are some kind of pinko commie atheist. I believe that makes me hypersensitive, I apologize for that.

The "secular nation" did indeed strike deep for me, Ireland is anything but secular. In fact many attribute the troubles to religion, (Personally and Allan will agree, it goes way beyond religion). Casual imprudent use of terms such as that irritate me . It serves no purpose and closes dialog.

Speaking though of Allan. I would like to present the two of us as an example. His Orange is as glaring to me as my Green is to him. He can rant of the atrocities of the provos and I can rant of the atrocities of the black and tans. If you would like to see name calling, I am sure we could comply. But we do not, why?

First and foremost, we share Christ. That above all melts many of the inbred hates we were trained into. I am sure Allan has heard "Rotten Irish Mick" in his life to the point where he thought it was one word, just as I have heard "Bleedin Proddy" to the point where I thought it was a formal salute. But I call Allan Brother with love and affection and he returns the same to me.

Next we share it appears a discomfort woith this current war in Iraq and how it is being handled. So how do we conduct ourselves? Do we roundly condemn all as "the Hoor's Melt of Baby Killers" and deny them the chance of Heaven?

No, we listen, we pray and as Allan and I are both doing, we look for Christ in the other.

[patriciaredstone]

Ron's article is what I have heard called, "crunchy conservative". Rather being what you expect -- a chocolaty outside with a caramel cream interior -- he throws in some unexpected "crunchie" ingredients which make the thing chewy and stay in a little longer and go down the with less discernment about the actual candy and more distraction about the nature of the crunchies. Before you have all of your questions answered, you've swallowed the whole thing!



[!--EDIT|patriciaredstone|Mar. 26 2003,10:25--]

[winky]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]For all I know, this war is just.  I certainly am not in a position to know the complete truth.   For the life of me, though, I will never understand anyone being excited about war or seemingly taking it lightly or absolutely knowing it is right. [/quote]

:amen:

[marc]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Mar. 25 2003,05:50)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Yeah, what Ron said.

********************************************

Question:
You may be like me, and wish we'd get our fingers out of so many international pies.
You may also be like me, and wish we'd do our best to take down (yes, take down, as a wolf does a caribou) more than just Saddam.
You may be like me- either a genius, able to suspend two equally urgent and "equally opposite"  :thinking:  ideas in the mind simultaneously-
Or else, like me, apparently insane for thinking opposite things... :uhh:[/quote]
Getting back to the first post. . . .

I've been struggling with these same two ideas.  I have tended to avoid mentioning Saddam's atrocities when explaining why I support our actions, concentrating rather on the very real threat Saddam poses to the US, because I realize that saying we are taking down Saddam because of his atrocities means we have to confront the fact that there are several other world leaders as bad as he is and then ask ourselves "what next?"

And yet when I continue to hear and read of Saddam's atrocities (the latest being the torture and murder of athletes and their families by Saddam's son revealed by Sports Illustrated) I find myself thinking "yes, this is why we have to eliminate this regime."

And I also find myself realizing that he remains in power because our efforts to take care of such situations through international organizations, from the UN to the International Olympic Committee, have failed.

And I wonder if, in the end, we are going to be faced with the reality that we need a strong UN.  Yet I think we have seen that the current structure is not working.

Reforming the UN may prove to be an impossible task, but I'm afraid it is one we'll have to face.

[Abishai100]

An intriguing and complicated aspect of conflict is the colloquialization of war.

When religions prophesy about dividing differences between spiritualism opinions, everyday people feel compelled to comment on the instinct to create disagreement.

American comic book avatars and Hollywood (USA) movie avatars often represent humanity's assessment of and wrestling with topics of war coordination.

If we take a look at three Hollywood (USA) horror characters, Leatherface (a chainsaw-wielding cannibal), Pinhead (a hellish imprisoner), and Freddy Krueger (a dream destroyer), we find themes about natural anxieties regarding conflict temperament.

If we take a look at three conflagration-image American comic book characters (or avatars), Two-Face (a man with anti-social nihilism), Poison Ivy (an anti-humanity eco-terrorist), and Penguin (a scheming crime-master), we find themes about natural anxieties regarding governance frustration.

War and conflict resolution imply serious labor, and understanding how Biblical stories about the upstart AntiChrist informs society's perspective on war inevitability can help us coordinate society etiquette with more formal humanism.

I find that American comic books are very helpful in this domain and in many ways comprise today's etiquette-debate pulp detective stories.

This autumn, American audiences will be tuning into the Batman (DC Comics) franchise adapted television series "Gotham" (Fox TV) which will present stories about jurisprudence daydreams as they apply to modern anxieties about crime traffic control and conflict avoidance.  This series will reveal a modern fascination with conflict-themed society art and should prove inspiring in discussions about modern war humanism poetry (or street war colloquialization).





[deleted]

[Peace Warrior]

Lazarus thread, come forth!!!

[MeMyself]

 

[New Creation]

Lazarus thread, come forth!!!

Resurrected after 11 long years.

It is interesting to read peoples thoughts from that time though, no?