Masturbation and attraction as singles ???

[fassopony]

Since I'm usually the outspoken one anyway!  Marrieds, feel free to weigh in with Biblical or Christian based opinion.  Thoughtful discussion please :)

So, is masturbation a sin?  Did God say it is?

What about lust or desire?  What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?  What is not?

I haven't dated since I got saved, I have no idea 

[chosenone]

This is something that I have never been quite sure about, because as far as I know the Bible isn't clear on it. I do know that imagining sex or sexual acts with a person you aren't married to isn't right during masturbation, (or using porn), but whether the actual act is wrong, I am not sure, and if it is I cant think why. However for many I would think that masturbation would usually include such sexual thoughts or fantasies?I cant see that occasional use, (and not that totally out of balance or out of control use) of masturbation is bad, but if anyone can show me where it says it is wrong in the Bible, I am willing to be corrected. One of those grey areas I think.

Jesus does tell us not to lust after those of the opposite sex, and so we do need to be careful about staring at others/ imagining anything innappropriate with them/watching things on TV or in films that wont help us in this area/ reading steamy books that wont help in this area etc etc. I suppose much of it is in the mind and what we allow ourselves to think about or dwell on, and taking wrong thoughts captive(not easy of course).

For those of us who are married(well you did say we could contribute. lol) we must confine our thoughts in this area to our own spouses.
For those in serious relationships or who are engaged, well I cant see that kissing or hugging or holding hands is wrong, but probably a good idea to keep it to that till marriage.

Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

[Lively Stone]

Those who indulge are disrespecting their bodies. that goes against scripture where it says we are to care for our bodies, and that the body of a Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit. What would He think of that activity, and what is in one's mind when one masturbates in His home?

[fassopony]

Chosenone, thank you :)  I appreciate your response.  It's been on my mind lately, as has the dating and what sort of attraction is okay for a Christian? 

Lively, I can't imagine anyone would think pornographic thoughts are okay.  Not sure I agree with you on the masturbation part though.  We'll see, I am just starting to really think about that as well as the other topic.

I think all are agreed that sex before marriage is a bad deal :)

[Lively Stone]

Chosenone, thank you :)  I appreciate your response.  It's been on my mind lately, as has the dating and what sort of attraction is okay for a Christian?  

Lively, I can't imagine anyone would think pornographic thoughts are okay.  Not sure I agree with you on the masturbation part though.  We'll see, I am just starting to really think about that as well as the other topic.

I think all are agreed that sex before marriage is a bad deal :)

Therefore sex with yourself is equally a sin. We as believers in Jesus Christ are to take our errant thoughts captive.

2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

[chosenone]

I have heard many arguments for and against whether masturbation itself is right or wrong, but from the Bible I havent been convinced either way as yet. However can many people actually do this without fantasising as well? (which would make it wrong of course). I mean, if a husband was away from his wife for a long period, is it wrong for him to masturbate while imaging his own wife?Surely that is better then getting tempted to sin with another woman?

[comfy]

I understand that God does not want me to just use women to look at them and use them for fantasizing. But care about each person, and not just use any person for anything sexual or anything else, but first care about each person.

Ones might say they have sexual "drives" and they say this is "normal" and so they have to do sexual things. But we all were born in sin, with drives that are dominating and not led by the Holy Spirit. I believe the emotions and passions of Jesus are "gentle and lowly" (Matthew 11:29) like He is, and not dominating and forcing us. But in sin we have dominating drives which are in fact for pleasure and so they are not truly sexual because they are not about reproducing children of God's love: they are about what we want for ourselves, and Jesus says, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23).

So, if we get over our pleasure tripping stuff . . . for food pleasure or sexual pleasure or adrenaline rush pleasure and other pleasures . . . we can get more into how love will have us relating sensitively with God and in caring and sharing with people.

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12)

"You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections." (2 Corinthians 6:12)

[LightHammer]

CCC 2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."

[mrhockey903]

That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

[Tiamiyux]

Masturbation is a big sin. God is against it. Your body is the temple of God. If you desire a spouse, pray to God.

[mrhockey903]

Masturbation is a big sin. God is against it. Your body is the temple of God. If you desire a spouse, pray to God.

Where in the Bible does it say that?

[Lively Stone]

Masturbation is a big sin. God is against it. Your body is the temple of God. If you desire a spouse, pray to God.

Exactly!

[LightHammer]

That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

[Josiah]

That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

[Josiah]

Since I'm usually the outspoken one anyway!  Marrieds, feel free to weigh in with Biblical or Christian based opinion.  Thoughtful discussion please :)

So, is masturbation a sin?  Did God say it is?

What about lust or desire?  What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?  What is not?

I haven't dated since I got saved, I have no idea 

1.   Specifically a sin?   I think I'll not touch that (pun intended)....

2.  Would I tell some 13 year old boy that he's ergo going to hell?  No. 

3.  Would I tell a 2 year old girl that she's ergo going to hell?   No.

4.  Do I deny that, "95% of teen boys admit to masturbating and the other 5% are liars?"  No, but I'd say it's probably 4 of the other 5% are liars.

5.  ATTRACTION to the opposite sex is not a sin and is not "lust." 

6.  Married couples have strong physical attractions and probably share marital intimacies - and yet, don't "lust."  Ergo, is lust = sexual attraction to one of the other gender?

7.  If ANY practice causes guilt or a problem in relationships (especially with God), it's not a good idea and I'd counsel it's discontinuation.   

8.  Attempts to "justify" what we inside hold as wrong is probably as harmful as the wrong.  IF this was really a 'non-issue,' we wouldn't be addressing it.






.

[LightHammer]

That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

[Josiah]

That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

   (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

       (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

       (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
     
       (6)

          lest children should be born in his brother's name.

       (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




.

[LightHammer]

That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




.

There's no way you could have read it. This discussion will be pointless if you don't read what I write.

Please. Its not a long post. If you have read it, which I simply don't see how you can have the question if you did, then read it again.

If after you have read it then we can talk.

[Josiah]

That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




.

There's no way you could have read it. This discussion will be pointless if you don't read what I write.

Please. Its not a long post. If you have read it, which I simply don't see how you can have the question if you did, then read it again.

If after you have read it then we can talk.

I've read it.  Every word.

Is there a reason you don't want to discuss what you posted, you don't want to address my questions to you?





.

[LightHammer]

That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




.

There's no way you could have read it. This discussion will be pointless if you don't read what I write.

Please. Its not a long post. If you have read it, which I simply don't see how you can have the question if you did, then read it again.

If after you have read it then we can talk.

I've read it.  Every word.

Is there a reason you don't want to discuss what you posted, you don't want to address my questions to you?





.

Its not that unreasonable or complex. I simply want you to read what I posted before you attempt to respond to me.

I don't see what the issue is.

[Josiah]

That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

   (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

       (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

       (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
     
       (6)

          lest children should be born in his brother's name.

       (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




.

There's no way you could have read it. This discussion will be pointless if you don't read what I write.

Please. Its not a long post. If you have read it, which I simply don't see how you can have the question if you did, then read it again.

If after you have read it then we can talk.

I've read it.  Every word.

Is there a reason you don't want to discuss what you posted, you don't want to address my questions to you?





.

Its not that unreasonable or complex. I simply want you to read what I posted before you attempt to respond to me.

I don't see what the issue is.

1.  AGAIN, I have read every single word you have posted in this read.  More than once.  

2.  Did you read what I posted?   I  put it into enbolden, red font for you.

3.  IF so, why do you so strongly desire to evade and avoid what I asked?





.

[LightHammer]

That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

   (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

       (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

       (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
     
       (6)

          lest children should be born in his brother's name.

       (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




.

There's no way you could have read it. This discussion will be pointless if you don't read what I write.

Please. Its not a long post. If you have read it, which I simply don't see how you can have the question if you did, then read it again.

If after you have read it then we can talk.

I've read it.  Every word.

Is there a reason you don't want to discuss what you posted, you don't want to address my questions to you?





.

Its not that unreasonable or complex. I simply want you to read what I posted before you attempt to respond to me.

I don't see what the issue is.

1.  AGAIN, I have read every single word you have posted in this read.  More than once.  

2.  Did you read what I posted?   I  put it into enbolden, red font for you.

3.  IF so, why do you so strongly desire to evade and avoid what I asked?





.

Forgive me there's simply no way you could have read the post and think your question is valid.

[Josiah]

That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

   (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

       (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

       (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
     
       (6)

          lest children should be born in his brother's name.

       (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




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There's no way you could have read it. This discussion will be pointless if you don't read what I write.

Please. Its not a long post. If you have read it, which I simply don't see how you can have the question if you did, then read it again.

If after you have read it then we can talk.

I've read it.  Every word.

Is there a reason you don't want to discuss what you posted, you don't want to address my questions to you?





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Its not that unreasonable or complex. I simply want you to read what I posted before you attempt to respond to me.

I don't see what the issue is.

1.  AGAIN, I have read every single word you have posted in this read.  More than once.  

2.  Did you read what I posted?   I  put it into enbolden, red font for you.

3.  IF so, why do you so strongly desire to evade and avoid what I asked?





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Forgive me there's simply no way you could have read the post and think your question is valid.

If you don't want to discuss, the better approach is to just ignore what people post to you.  Staffer, this IS a discussion forum.


You made a statement (in blue, embolden font in case you didn't read what you posted).  I asked for the substantiation.   

Oh, well....





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[DaveW]

Since I'm usually the outspoken one anyway!  Marrieds, feel free to weigh in with Biblical or Christian based opinion.  Thoughtful discussion please :)

So, is masturbation a sin?  Did God say it is?

What about lust or desire?  What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?  What is not?

OK old married geezer (a grandfather) here.

An interesting discussion so far.  I have a somewhat different take on this subject.

As a young single I struggled with this for years.  Is it ok, not ok? Some said it was such a bad sin that even the HOLY bible itself could not directly mention it and stay holy. The church I was in in college had their morality police come around and question us single guys every few months to make sure we were not doing it. It drove me crazy.

Then, 2 months after I got married they played the first video series by Dr Dobson "Focus on the Family" (which later became the name of his ministry) and the last segment dealt with "M." He was for it but approached it with such humility and scripturality that the congregational leaders publicly apologised to us all.  

[sarcasm] Thanks a lot....[/sarcasm]

But still I struggled with whether it was ok or not REALLY.

It was finally reading "The Gift of Sex" by Dr and Mrs. Penner that convinced me.  They found a passage in the Song of Solomon (first few verses of chapter 5) that describe Shulamite doing the "M" and still being described as "undefiled."

I was never quite sure how it all fit in until I came to the Messianic movement and realized just how much God deals with us thru covenant.  Moses wrote that husband and wife are "one flesh." That is a function of covenant. Believers (see Jn 17) in the New Covenant are also one, both with each other and with the Lord Himself.

So we all agree sex is allowed within the "one flesh" covenant relationship.

So where does that leave "M?"  Are we not already "one flesh" ourselves? I am allowed to have sex with my wife because now she is a part of ME. But I am already ME. So whether I have sex with her or by my self, it is still covenantally with ME.

Where that leaves Onan is, not that he M-ed, but that he covenantally deprived his wife of offspring. (and in the process cheated his dead brother).  He had all the sexual pleasure but none of the responsibility.

And now where does that leave a frustrated single christian?  With the freedom of self-relief but with the caveat of not including (even in thought or imagination) joining with someone else they are not married to.

IOW, no sex with anyone else, no porn, no daydreaming about having sex with someone else.

That is my take on the subject.  It is not shared with anyone but my wife. If you can find something useful, great.  If not, ignore it.

[Catholica]

Does anyone think Jesus masturbated?  If not, then why not?

[DaveW]

Does anyone think Jesus masturbated?  If not, then why not?

That is a strawman argument.

No one can give any answer to that. But there is an insinuation behind the question. That insinuation decries His humanity in favor of His divinity.

Yes people have made the argument that He could not have possibly done that because M = fornication or adultery and He was without sin.  But that makes the assumption that M = sin; which is not directly supported in scripture.

They have also argued that ejecting semen makes one unclean.  That is true.
And that HE as the Son of God could not possibly be made unclean.  That is not so clear.  He did on occasion touch a few dead corpses - the worst kind of uncleanness which required the ashes of a red heifer to purge. 

But please note: being ceremonially unclean is NOT sinful. THere were things commanded in the Law that inherently made one unclean. Normal marital relations were commanded and they rendered one unclean. Childbirth rendered one unclean.

[LightHammer]

Does anyone think Jesus masturbated?  If not, then why not?

That is a strawman argument.

No one can give any answer to that. But there is an insinuation behind the question. That insinuation decries His humanity in favor of His divinity.

Yes people have made the argument that He could not have possibly done that because M = fornication or adultery and He was without sin.  But that makes the assumption that M = sin; which is not directly supported in scripture.

They have also argued that ejecting semen makes one unclean.  That is true.
And that HE as the Son of God could not possibly be made unclean.  That is not so clear.  He did on occasion touch a few dead corpses - the worst kind of uncleanness which required the ashes of a red heifer to purge. 

But please note: being ceremonially unclean is NOT sinful. THere were things commanded in the Law that inherently made one unclean. Normal marital relations were commanded and they rendered one unclean. Childbirth rendered one unclean.

Did you by any chance read Gensis 38 or my post?

[Catholica]

Does anyone think Jesus masturbated?  If not, then why not?

That is a strawman argument.

No one can give any answer to that. But there is an insinuation behind the question. That insinuation decries His humanity in favor of His divinity.

You have implied something that I have not, nor wanted to.  Jesus was human and divine.  Just because Jesus was divine doesn't mean that he was any less human.  Jesus had a perfectly working body which was perfectly capable of doing what any man or woman is capable of doing, including masturbate.

Some people are implying that masturbation is not a sin.  So then if it were not a sin, then by extension is it not possible that Jesus masturbated? 

We do know that Jesus only did the Father's will.  Do you think it would be the Father's will for his only begotten son to masturbate?

If so, then someone might have the argument that, by masturbating, they are saying to God, thy will be done.  But in reality masturbation is an incredibly selfish act.  It has no regard to the spiritual realm and only regards one purely sensual desires.

What does the Bible say about selfishness?

2 Timothy 3
1 But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days.a
2 People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious,
3 callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good,
4 traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them.

Also consider this verse:

Galatians 5
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Masturbation is clearly a grave sin, demonstrating a lack of self-control, and it will keep people from walking in the Spirit.  God's wants to set us free, but masturbation is slavery.    God wants us to grow in self-control, but masturbation is the opposite of self-control.  Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.  That means, if we are to belong to Christ Jesus, we are to work with God's help to overcome the desires of the flesh, and that means resisting the temptation to masturbate, among other things.

Jesus did not masturbate not only because it is a grave sin, but also because he was in full control of his passions, being made perfect.  Through His sanctification, Jesus wants to conform us into himself, and that means to be like Jesus we too have to strive to not become slaves to our flesh but to become masters over it.  Masturbation is a complete rejection or giving in to the flesh, and the grave message I quoted from Galatians 5 should be taken to heart.

[Lively Stone]

Masturbation uses the mind to conjure up ideas and pictures that stimulate. Jesus didn't sin in that way, and it is disgusting that anyone would stoop so low as to even consider that Jesus would commit any sin, let alone a sexual one.

Anyone who follows after God fully has no time to even consider such a useless time waster.

[Josiah]

Did you by any chance read Gensis 38 or my post?

I did.
It says NOTHING about masturbation or that it's wrong.
It might be - I'm not saying otherwise - only that Genesis 38 doesn't say so.



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[DaveW]

Catholica, you are making (or parroting) some assumptions not supported in scripture.  Scripture NEVER says that M is inherently selfish, It certainly CAN be, but not necessarily.

You also list a bunch of verses about desires of the flesh, immorality, not inheriting the kingdom, etc.  You have yet to make a scriptural case that M is actually covered by any of that.   Eating would fit that scenario as well. Are we forbidden from eating?

You ASSUME that M is immoral.
You ASSUME that M is the desire of the flesh (and this 'flesh' is NOT the physical body but the fallen adamic original-sin nature of man)

Masturbation is clearly a grave sin, demonstrating a lack of self-control,

Some use it as a form of self-control to keep the physical desires from besting them.

Besides, Paul NEVER said the remedy for strong sexual desire was more self control. Indeed he does not condemn lack of sexual self control at all. Rather he says this:

1Co 7:5  Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

1Co 7:9  But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

In that day marriage came during the early teens, His remedy is to get married. Indeed that is the best way of channeling those desires. But that is not always available.  In those cases, especially in light of Song of Solomon 5, M is an available solution.

[Lively Stone]

In that day marriage came during the early teens, His remedy is to get married. Indeed that is the best way of channeling those desires. But that is not always available.  In those cases, especially in light of Song of Solomon 5, M is an available solution.

Solution to what? Lack of control?

[Catholica]

This thread is further evidence that, even with scripture, anyone can justify any sin to themselves.  I even heard someone (on this forum) making a similar argument that seeing a prostitute was not a sin.

The temptation to masturbate and to lust after someone stems from a fallen human nature combined with human passions.  If one has self-control, then they don't lust or masturbate in spite of human passions.

I'm interested in why people think that Paul condemns "sexual immorality".  How do I "sexual immoral"?  No, I didn't type that wrong.  The fact is, Paul already had an idea what acts constituted "sexual immorality" when he used that term.  He didn't bother to list all the kinds.  It doesn't take much imagination to list them all here.

Natural law.  Not many people want to believe it these days.  But the natural law tells us that our bodies were created for a reason.  Our genitalia was created for two inseparable things: procreation and mutual pleasure with a mate.  Masturbation is inherently contraceptive, denying the God-created use of our bodies that part of what it was naturally created for.  This is obvious to everyone.

Finally, it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to say that masturbation is not selfish.  Who exactly are you serving by masturbating?

If you don't think that you are a making yourself a slave to your passions when you masturbate, then try to stop.  It is hard, isn't it?  But I tell you that with God's grace you can stop, but it takes much prayer and perseverance.  And you can choose not to give in to lust also by removing yourself from the situation, making a covenant with your eyes, etc.   God gives you the grace to resist sinning.  By stopping masturbating and resisting any lustful desires, you can become in control of yourself as God intends you to be.  There is no way that one can overcome lustful desires by masturbating.

[LightHammer]

Catholica, you are making (or parroting) some assumptions not supported in scripture.  Scripture NEVER says that M is inherently selfish, It certainly CAN be, but not necessarily.

You also list a bunch of verses about desires of the flesh, immorality, not inheriting the kingdom, etc.  You have yet to make a scriptural case that M is actually covered by any of that.   Eating would fit that scenario as well. Are we forbidden from eating?

You ASSUME that M is immoral.
You ASSUME that M is the desire of the flesh (and this 'flesh' is NOT the physical body but the fallen adamic original-sin nature of man)

Masturbation is clearly a grave sin, demonstrating a lack of self-control,

Some use it as a form of self-control to keep the physical desires from besting them.

Besides, Paul NEVER said the remedy for strong sexual desire was more self control. Indeed he does not condemn lack of sexual self control at all. Rather he says this:

1Co 7:5  Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

1Co 7:9  But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

In that day marriage came during the early teens, His remedy is to get married. Indeed that is the best way of channeling those desires. But that is not always available.  In those cases, especially in light of Song of Solomon 5, M is an available solution.

I would think Genesis 38 would clear this up with ease.

[DaveW]

I'm interested in why people think that Paul condemns "sexual immorality".  How do I "sexual immoral"?  No, I didn't type that wrong.  The fact is, Paul already had an idea what acts constituted "sexual immorality" when he used that term.  He didn't bother to list all the kinds.  It doesn't take much imagination to list them all here.

They ALL are already listed in scripture - Most are in Leviticus.

And M is conspicuous by its absence.