Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage (MDR)

[charlie]

I wonder if we will ever come to a reasonable consensus on this topic, or are we trying to make the bible answer a question that we are asking, when there is no clear answer, instead of just doing what the bible says.

[segell]

Janine

I'm actually registered.  Sometimes I'm a bit too lazy to log in.  Please feel free to send a message.

Steve

[His_helpmeet]

Bill
"Are you saying that we are still in sin because there are consequences and repercussions to sins that we have repented of and forgiven for?  My thoughts are that even with God's forgiveness we will still suffer the consequences of our wrong choices.  I'm just trying to better understand what you are saying."


That is not what I am saying.  That's what I explained in detail.  The fact that being forgiven does not change the consequences still being there.   I was asking where I had said that.  

His_helpmeet

[His_helpmeet]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (terry @ May 28 2002,4:49)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I know of a man who was married less than one year to a woman who decided that moving across the country and fulfilling career dreams was more important than her marriage. Neither one were Christians at the time of this marriage. Years later he remarries and has three children with the new wife. After the birth of the third baby he and his wife get saved while participating in VBS at a church in their neighborhood. The former wife never comes to know Christ. Here you have two committed Christian parents and a non-Christian former wife. I just don't see how this man leaving his family to go across the country to return to the non-believing first wife would fullfill Jesus perfect law of love. In fact, this family is now led by a very Godly man who raises his family with the help of prayer. Never has he received guidance from the Holy Spirit to leave his family to fullfill some technical requirement.
terry[/quote]
terry,

I would put forth that the scriptures show that he must at least leave the marital relationship he is in.  It does not necisitate him hunting down the first wife.  According to 1Cor 7:11 he has an option to remain unmarried.  In this manner, he can teach his children that his love for God motivates him to obey even at the cost of his own "happiness".  He can still lead his children through prayer and obedience. If his wife is also a christian, she can also teach the children the same thing by choosing to not be in a adulterous relationship.  The complexities should not be what determines our actions, but the truth of the scriptures.  Jesus said that he who marries someone who is divorced commits adultery.  Our emotions complicate things.  And Jesus said he came to divide, and that households may be divided Matt 10:34-36.  

Please understand, I don't say this without my heartbreaking at the thought of the confusion that will come from such a circumstance.  I am married, and I have two lovely girls. I can understand the emotions that motivate us to think "But He can't really expect that of us." But if He expected Abraham to offer his son on the altar,( and our faith is to be patterned after Abraham's) so that He might test Abraham's faith, why would He not expect the same type of gut renching sacrifice from us if need be? Christ gave His life for us, is too much to ask that we may have to give up some things in this life for Him?  These are the things that tear at me.  

His_helpmeet

[living4him]

If "2 Peter 8 :8 says, With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

Then on day one (Genesis), the two(man and wife) became one flesh.

On day two ( a thousand years later?) Jacob took Leah and Rachel as his wives.

On day three ( a thousand years later), Jesus came and defined God's position on  divorce.

And on day five (two thousand years later) we say Jacob should have dumped Rachel and stayed with Leah because he is living in adultry if he marries Rachel and leaves Leah behind?

The narrow view is hard for me to conceive.  I'm not condoning divorce.  God hates it (Malachi).  I just want to understand it.

[His_helpmeet]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (terry @ May 29 2002,10:15)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I definitely don't see how this is bringing any good to the kingdom of God. The fact of the matter is, God wants families to stay together. Jesus said not everyone can accept this word. Paul gave specific instructions to remain in the situation you were in when called to the Lord. To say that this man must leave his family in order to be saved is to say that we are saved by works.[/quote]
terry,

Our works are the necessary and natural outpouring from our faith.  If there is not obedience there is not faith.  That is not salvation by works.  That is your works showing you as a member of God's family. (1Jn 2 and others.)


Several people have mentioned where Paul says to remain in the situation you were in when called to the Lord.  Then the women who were harlots could remain in their profession?  Paul (as Saul) was called to the Lord while on his way to condemn christians to death for blasphemy, why did he change his direction if the situation in which he was called (a Pharisee and Roman citizen) did not need to be changed.  If the argument stands for MDR then it MUST stand for all other sins because all sins are equal.  I do not have to stop any of the works of the flesh, in action, because my attitude is different?  If you say any of that must stop then the act of having sexual relations with another man's wife (not my definition, Jesus') must stop. Whether or not you think it is beneficial to the kingdom makes no difference.  If you want to disregard the basic teaching of Christ that it is adultery for a divorced to woman to be married to another man, then that is your business.  I do not wish you to change what you believe to be truth. However, I frimly believe that to teach that someone may stay with the party that makes them an adulteress/adulterer contradicts Christ's very own words.

I appreciate your willingness to discuss this with me.  

His_helpmeet

[janine]

No one is saying that the will of God, as revealed in the Bible, should be put aside because feelings will be hurt if we follow said will... at least, I hope not.

There has to be Scriptural ground to stand upon if one is going to take a heavy action like divorce, and if one is going to expect others who try to live by the Word to accept it.

Plenty of people are pained by others' or by their own obedience to God's will.  Such situations must be handled with Bible in your hand and continual prayer on your lips.  That's the best any individual can do. ;)

[terry]

terry,

I believe the Holy Spirit guides by the word He provided.  He does not intervene with answers different than the scriptures.  So if the answer from the Holy Spirit is motivated by emotions and can not be confirmed by scriptures then I do believe that would be error.

Angi,
You are right about the Holy Spirit giving answers different than the scriptures. The two are consistent. I was pointing out that there are no instructions in the scripture to divorce in order to make right a divorce. The HS illuminates, guides, instructs and comforts. He doesn't change scripture. Sorry if this didn't make sense.
terry

[living4him]

Correction:  "I don't think you want any other understanding ..."

[His_helpmeet]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (living4him @ May 31 2002,5:56)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Angie:  " And I would prefer you show me from scripture the truth we are discussing. I really don't care what one man or another has to say, it's what the Bible says that matters. "
Lauren: To do this you have to drop your own commentaries.
Angie" I understand what Romans and Galatians have to say about faith over the works of the old law"  

Lauren: understanding is something we grow in, not something we've arrived at (1 Cor 8:2)

Have a good day,
Lauren[/quote]
Lauren,

I don't refer to other men as authorites on the truth.  I look only to the scriptures.  I would not anyone to use my comments as authority either. They should use the scriptures.  

I may come to more of an understanding yes, but it is possible to have knowledge and understanding and still be growing.   And the verse you referred to is discussing knowledge, not understanding.  Many people have loads of knowledge, yet never understand what the knowledge means.

[living4him]

Angi,
After going back and reading your posts I think that the wonderful scriptures that you've presented are part of a 500 piece puzzle, and you've closely presented 250 pieces(scriptures on MDR) , but now they need to be blended in with the other 250 pieces to complete the puzzle.  Without the other 250 pieces(rest of scripture) , the puzzle is incomplete.  

Have a good night,
Lauren

[His_helpmeet]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (terry @ June 01 2002,6:37)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Angi,
I'm borrowing from a previous post from Jonesy. Until I learn how to do that quote in a box thing that you all do I will have to do the old fashioned cut and paste way. Here it is.

"Are you married? Do not seek a divorce (Gk, lusin = dissolve a marriage bond). Are you unmarried (Gk, lelusin = already in the situation of having dissolved a marriage bond)? Do not look for a wife. But if you do marry, you have not sinned . . ." (1 Cor. 7:27-28a).

I know that we have seen the argument that the phrase concerning "Are you loosed", could have multiple meanings, but even in the multiple meanings, it reads the same.  

On 1Tim3: I have a problem with this referring to divorced or widowed men. Nowhere else in scripture are these people being referred to as "husband of more than one wife." They are either said to be widowed, divorced, or married. I believe that this is a classic example of where misguided bible teachers twist a simple scripture in order for the scripture to fit their preconceived ideas of who is in the church and who isn't. They are convinced that the church was made up of one-man one-woman households only. All polygamist certainly would have reduced their households to one wife and all divorced and remarried couples would have certainly got new divorces in order to make the church the perfect family place that we have always been told it is. From this logic, we get crazy arguments about whether or not a widower who is remarried can serve as an elder. And don't even mention a divorced man serving in this capacity. We have come to the conclusion that no polygamist families were in the church because since God requires all divorced and remarried couples to seek new divorces this would most certainly include those who came to the Lord with their five wives. At least this is our human logic of the scriptures. However, we still have Paul saying to remain in the (marriage) situation you were in when called to the Lord. I believe that these families understood what God desired with marriage because polygamy quickly died out in the church.

Also, even if this is not referring to polygamy you stated that it could be divorced and remarried men. If this is true we still have to face the fact that there were divorced and remarried men in the church (Christ body). No one told them to dissolve their unscriptural marriage, only to not seek the eldership. However, given the culture, and the style of writing, I believe it is more likely to be men married to multiple wives at the same time.
take care,
terry[/quote]
Terry,

In the top right hand corner of each post there is a "quote" button.  If you click on that it takes you a screen where you can type your response in the top box and edit the quote as needed in the bottom box.


I do remember the comment by Jonesy.  And I have considered what he said.  I considered the possibility of my misunderstanding enough to look the word up again so I could read what he had read and shown.  I posted after that the full definition of the word for "unmarried" or loosed in that verse.  It can mean any of those possibilities.  And for scripture to meet scripture (Matt 5:32 for instance) it must mean someone who hasn't been married before.   But I will continue to study it.  

As to the 1Tim thing,  as I've said I have to study the polygamus idea.  I never even thought of polygamy in that context.  I do have some ideas about it (of course) but I need to meditate on them some first.

Angi

[His_helpmeet]

Deut 17:14-20  God tells them that they will ask for a king. When they do set up a king there are certain things that must be adhered to. One of which was that he shall not multiply wives for himself. (v17).  Applies only to the king??  I dunno.

Angi

[Mike Lewis]

What about a couple that has been remarried who are not Christians?  They decide that they want to put some God in their lives and go to a church that greets them warmly, invites them in and they have been faithful Christians for 15 years? Are they to get divorced simply because God says divorce is bad?
I think that this all comes down to the grace issue...God can see that they want to be right with Him and are now living the Christian way...he will not condemn them.
BTW...this is an example of my In-Laws. This is them. Divorced from other spouses and remarried. They are great Christian parents.

[terry]

mg
I care about biblical authority. I care about it to the point that I want to know what the bible says to do with a remarried family that comes into our churches for membership. You seem to have alot of answers. What do we do? Do we tell them they must divorce? What scriputure do we give them to show this action is required? How do we go about not  violating the royal law of love when we tell a family they must break up? What would Jesus do? Please show me an example from the new testament.
In Him,
terry

[seekr]

GGGUS, I find a lot of times why people accuse others of saying something they didn't, a lot of time stems from (example) if I say i love red, people want to know what I have against blue and that I must hate it. The nature of man is a little confused at times.

seekr

[charlie]

This is a good example of the sensitive nature of this topic. It is ironic that so many in the "bride of Christ" would separate themselves from eachother over the subject of how sacred is the union between a husband and wife. No doubt many of us have vivid horror stories of congregations and individuals displaying their backsides over this topic. I know I sure do.

But what do we say to folks who are in that situation?There may be couples who have committed adultery according to Jesus' words out of ignorance or out of rebellion. Couples who were Christians beforehand, and couples that weren't. How are we to minister to these people? That is the topic I hope to have discussed.
Charlie

[jmfair60]

:D  ok, ya'll asked for it.  I should be able to get something up by tomorrow.

[charlie]

Wiley and Ikearcher,

Thank you both for you patience with me and your abundant research. I too have looked long and deep in this subject, but still have many unanswered questions. The bottom line is that I don't know what to tell couples in those situations what to do to be square with God. Believe me, I have all confidence in Jesus' blood to cleanse every stain. And this is not an unforgivable sin.
The main question of questions is: how does one repent? I have yet to find clear scripture answering that one, and believe me, I've tried.

To repent of stealing, you quit stealing. To repent of killing, you quit killing. To repent of having gotten married? Man, that's a toughie.

btw, thanks for the etymology on 'adultery'. Honestly, I have always wondered about that. Where do I go to find out more?

[WileyClarkson]

I have come by an interesting study on MDR called "Marriage is God's Plan" by Dyrel W. Collins.  He is preaching in Bryson, TX.  I met him at ACU Lectureship this week and had a really good discussion with him about the problem of MDR and the Biblical answer.  While I am not at this time absolutely advocating his understanding of the subject (I've read his booklet on it but haven't had time to really study all of it), it is one of the most common sense and Scriptural views on MDR I have run across.  It involves the translation/miss translation of some Greek words and the misunderstanding of Jewish customs which Jesus was speaking to.  Basically it involves the translation of "apostasion" (meaning to divorce with a writ of divorcement) which Jesus did not use in Matt 19:9 and "apoluo" (meaning to put away without a writ of divorcement) which Jesus did use in Matt 19:9.  Under the Old Law, which was still in effect at this time and included Jesus, a woman was free to remarry if she was divorced "apostasion" but if she was not divorced with a writ of divorcement, then she was "apoluo", put away without a writ, and was then still married.  Jesus said under these conditions, adultry is committed if one of the parties marries another without the "writ".  This practice is still the current practice in the Jewish community and apparently causing some real problems among the Jewish community these days.  It's a very interesting view that seems very logical and very much in tune with the current customs of the time and the Law.  I plan to do further study on it as time permits.  I have also purchased Olan Hicks book on MDR which I will be reading.  While I was there, I had a nice chat with Olan's wife.  Olan was at Lecutureship but was moving slowly as a result of an emergency apendectomy 10 or so days ago and I did not have a chance to meet him.

If anyone wants info on how to obtain this little booklet, let me know and I'll send it to you.

Wiley

[Bill]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (His_helpmeet @ May 27 2002,12:31)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]How have I done that?  I specifically said the repentant party was forgiven but it does not change the circumstances.  If I have sex outside of marriage, become pregnant, repent of my sin and am forgiven, am I not still pregnant from a sexual relationship outside of marriage?  Of course I am. There are still consequences and repercussions to be dealt with.  Even though I am forgiven for my error, there still may be things to be reckoned with.  It is the same in divorce and adultery.  

His_helpmeet[/quote]
His_helpmeet.

There are consequences for our choices whether we make good choices or bad ones.  Are you saying that we are still in sin because there are consequences and repercussions to sins that we have repented of and forgiven for?  My thoughts are that even with God's forgiveness we will still suffer the consequences of our wrong choices.  I'm just trying to better understand what you are saying.

Earlier you ask for a definition of adultery or something like that.  Of course you know the first definition but something of equal importance in the Bible is it is used for "covenant breaking", otherwise how could a nation be adulterous?  And of course if we look at the base meaning the fact a married person is having sex with someone other than his/her spouse, is breaking the marriage covenant.

Bill

[living4him]

Help Meet,
My point with Romans 4:15 "But the law brings wrath, and where there is no law, there is no transgression." -There is nothing "hanging over us.There is no continousness  as far as being in an "adultress second marriage.  "  Christianity is about growth through the Spirit.   It is about the heart. Romans 2: 29 "no, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and cirumcision is cirucmcion of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code(I extend that to any written code), such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.
I  can look at the Bible so meticulously , with all of its commands that I  can miss it .  .
This happened to the Jews.

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life .  "
I think we need to get away from the letter of the New Testament and understand it in the Spiritual realm.
2 Corinthians 3 :6 "For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

We are not under any law's condemnation(MDR continueous state) if we are following the law of the Spirit of life in Christ(Romans 8).
Galatians: "You who are trying to be justified by law (any law or anything we do ) have been alientated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.  Being under grace and being under law are antagonistic to each other.  
Romans 9:31 "but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it?  Why not?  Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.  They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." .
Lengthy exegesis of text and using the Greek and Hebrew have to be rendered opinion .  Just like what I say to you is my opinion.  My own preference in discussion is scripture alone .  I hope to talk to you again another time.  Lauren

[MASouth]

Wonderful Janeen.

MaSouth

[His_helpmeet]

Wiley,
"In your examples, you have set up an equation that talks to the idea of perpetual sin regardless of the forgiveness that God offers."

How have I done that?  I specifically the said the repentant party was forgiven but it does not change the circumstances.  If I have sex outside of marriage, become pregnant, repent of my sin and am forgiven, am I not still pregnant from a sexual relationship outside of marriage?  Of course I am. There are still consequences and repercussions to be dealt with.  Even though I am forgiven for my error, there still may be things to be reckoned with.  It is the same in divorce and adultery.  

His_helpmeet

[janine]

Since Jesus brought attention back to the two-becoming-one-flesh that God had in mind in the beginning (Matthew 19:3-12), I must assume that's the ideal.

Using Scripture to give me the guidelines for myself and for teaching others, is all I have to go by, re: MDR.

Unless I can clearly from Scripture delineate ongoing unrepented-of sin in another's life, I have no foothold to step into his/her life to say anything about the situation.

I'm sure I'll catch cold standing around trying to get any sensible, grace-loving God-fearer to dump the spouse & kids & run back to a previously dumped spouse, thereby having shipwrecked at least two households, maybe more.

[Kialani]

After reading the many and varied posts on marriage/re-marriage; the only thing I thought of was when Jesus knelt on the ground before the woman caught in adultry.  Silence.  A look within our own hearts, a look at the many thoughts we ourselves think, the many secret places within our own hearts, the many sins hidden from others.  One by one the many who had their many and varied opinions backed away.  And Jesus, He said, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."
Each of will stand before God and give account of our own life, not the lives of those we think are totally sinful, we do not give account for our neighbor, our friend, etc.  We give account only and always for ourselves.  Sometimes we need to remember this woman who knelt before Jesus.  He saw the heart.  He saw what made her into who she had become.  
We like to see the sin, we like to discuss the sin, we like to condemn the sin.  Jesus loves to look within and have us see our own hearts, and see that we ALL, like this woman, have sins we do not wish to be exposed.

[marc]

Ark, what makes it scary is when it's not so much told as a joke as a theological point--and backed up with scriptures.  

If you get the idea that I get a little frustrated when it comes to this subject, you're right. I was raised by two divored-remarried Christian parents who did not necessarily have "scriptural" reasons for their divorces, but who believed in forgiveness.  If I had been raised in such a theology as I am hearing, where would I be?

[marc]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Marc,

Do you believe that it is acceptable to be a drunk, a liar, a thief, a murderer... etc?  Because God's grace covers all things? [/quote]

If you think this is what I am saying, you need to go back and re-read what I've posted.  I've covered this concept explicitly (as did Paul in Romans 5 & 6 when he was accused of such things. )

Re-read Galatians 5 or the passages in Romans.  This explains why law is not neccesary for obedience.

I do believe God forgives.  That's scriptural.  On the other hand, the idea that a man should leave his wife or vice-versa because their marriage is not valid is found nowhere in scripture.  Nowhere.  Seems such an important, radical concept would at least deserve a mention.  Unless, of course, God just likes playing games with us and seeing if we're smart enough to piece it all together.

That's not the God I know.

[living4him]

Matthew 11:28-29 "Come to me , all you who are weary and burdend, and I will give you rest.  Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble and heart, , and you will find rest for your souls.  For my yoke is esay and my burden is light."

[His_helpmeet]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (living4him @ May 31 2002,5:48)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Angi,
If you've done it in your heart, you've already committed the act.  The principle is made clear in Matthew 5.

Along with Romans , our Lord says himself, in Luke 17: 21 "Neither sall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
I don't believe God has changed since the beginning of time.
Hebrews 13: 8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday and to day, and for ever.
If God over looked the acts of the faithful polygomus holy men of the past-and their adulterous acts-he will over look the same in us or else He would be hypocritical. And God is unchanging.  He is consistant and will deal with us the same way he will deal with the faithful under the Old Convenant , through the cross of Jesus Christ.
Romans 4:16 "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham(The polygamist) ; who is the father of us all."
Legalism will do nothing more than keep ourselves out of the kingdom of God.

           Lauren ;)[/quote]
Lauren,

Acts 17:29 " 'Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
v30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
v31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.'"

God overlooked it before, but now commands all men  everywhere to repent.   He's not going to overlook those things anymore.

Angi  
:D

[terry]

Didn't mean to add confusion. The following should have read was there error in Paul's letter to Timothy?  I'm on overload right now. This was in reference to 1Tim3

Angi,
So are you saying that Timothy made an error in his letter? That the only people in the church were men who were married only one time to one partner? It seems if this were the case than he wouldn not have given specific instructions for only men who were the husband of one wife to aspire to the eldership. This statement implies that there were men in the church who had more than one wife. Otherwise, to make this statement would just be useless and silly.
terry

IF a man and a woman find out after being married that they were brother and sister, would they be eligible for scriptural divorce?

LC

[MASouth]

You don't just say "I'm sorry", you quit doing it.  You quit murdering, stealing, lying and committing adultery.

MaSouth

Mike, I think alot of your
question is based on the concept
of remarriage being viewed as continual
adultery.  
I don't believe this to be true, continual
adultery.  this is mainly derived from
"and whosoever marries her that is put away
commiteth adultery..."
It took some thinking on my part, but I finally
saw thru it....

LC

[GGGGUS]

Acer,

Landmark CoC is your basic church of Christ.  A little contemporary in worship style I guess but a very service oriented church, reaching out to their community and very "real" if you will.

Have a great day!

ggggus