Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage (MDR)

[segell]

MrBill

I sent you a message yet I meant to post it to share with others what your testimony meant to me.  You touched my heart, Brother and brought a tear of joy to my eye.  

Jesus' light shines through you.  Your heart to the elders of the CoC congregation and to the two Baptists reveals who you are in Christ.  We ARE sealed by God's Spirit and we have entered into an eternal relationship with our Holy, Holy God.  It's too high, deep and wide to grasp - but I'm so grateful what He has revealed to me thus far.  Isn't it wonderful that God has reached down, opened our hearts and said, "I want to have a very real, personal relationship with you".  What a Savior we have!!

God bless you, too.

Steve

Wiley, Seekr and Bill -

Thank you for your kind words.  You know, I have to admit that I had to check back to see if my post had been read, and I'm glad I did.  Loving expressions certainly go a long way toward bolstering my faith and blessing me.  I thank God for you.

Steve

[Arkstfan]

Does it strike anyone else as bizarre that God would want to destroy marriages before accepting someone as his child?

Consider the Mosaic covenant vs. Christ's covenant.

Worship. Mosaic law required temple worship. Christ allows us to worship anywhere.

Food. Mosaic . limited to the clean, Christ all is acceptable.

Atonement. Mosaic required regular sacrifices. Christ is the sole sacrifice.

Sabbath. Mosaic strict limitations on what can be done. Christ all days are God's.

Membership. Mosaic was genetic with additional requirements of circumcision and ceremonial washing. Christ open to all with faith symbolized by baptism.

Now after that you find God denying his acceptance to people who he had accepted before? God liberalized all the laws and then imposed a tighter restriction on a narrow area?

[living4him]

Janine,
Good point here: "So, which wives does he chuck out the window, in order to get in line with the missionaries' guidelines?  What if his own study of the Scriptures and his own communion with the Spirit of God lead him to believe he ought to remain a husband to all the wives? "

I'm still struggling to understand pologamy in the Old Testament.  
Jacob had Leah and Sarah
Abraham had Sarah and Haggi
ect..ect..ect..
The good Kings had more than one wife and took wife after wife.

Which brings me to something else that would coincide with the MDR issue.
This is something I posted on another forum a month or so ago and got no feasible response:

" Last night I was reading in 2 Chronicles . The King of Judah had more than one wife . King David did also. Evidently, this was a practice. Does anyone know how God felt about the Israelites having more than one wife? Does anyone know where and when God ordained concubines and if it was tolerated without the faithful being considered "living in sin" and when God reduced the rule to only one wife? And does anyone know where the scriptures are to support monogamy only? "

Why does God commend them for their faith ?

Hebrews 13:8  says, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever
2 Peter 8 :8 says, With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

Is it possible that our interpretations of MDR today are more narrow than God's?

    Thanks for your replies,
     Lauren

[terry]

Angi,
I was reading back over some old posts and saw your's a few pages ago. I recommend the sermon link by Rubel Shelly on top of page 3 of this thread. It's good reading.
terry

[Arkstfan]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ May 31 2002,9:35)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Finally, the "itching ears" comment concerning Rubel Shelly was unfounded, unsubstantiated and uncalled for.  Shelly has suffered much for teaching differently than he taught when he was younger.  He has been alienated from those who once praised him, from friends and family, and continually undergoes unjust criticism, lies and rumors.  Rather than speaking to "itching years" he speaks things that cause others to persecute him.  [/quote]
Great point. Shelly was the rising star of the conservative churches. A friend tells of hearing him on the radio in Memphis and how she enrolled at Lipscomb just as he arrived there and how she dreaded his class because he was the darling of the conservatives.

She then told of how he began changing as he became more and more deeply immersed in scripture and is ideas changed. As they changed he came under heavy criticism especially from those who expected him to be the torch bearer for the conservative church.

He did NOT take the easy way and to suggest such demonstrates lack of knowledge of the facts of the tension his employment teaching and preaching were placed under because he stood up against what he felt was the tradition of men and matters of opinion.

I can name several less famous preachers who have faced the same thing in smaller churches.

[His_helpmeet]

To all:

I really think that we may all be spinning our wheels.  If I have come to this discussion (and my study of the things we speak about) with preconceived ideas, then I believe you all have also.  And if I have been unwilling to look at what you all have to say (which I have not, knowing what I have read and what I have thought), then you have too been unwilling to consider what I have put forth.  I have yet for anyone to explain to me just what they believe Matt 5:32 to be teaching if it's not that to marry someone who is divorced is committing adultery.  I do not wish to let my ideas dictate what I believe to be truth.  I have said that I had not even considered poylgamy in any of the contexts we've discussed.  I have been attempting to discuss adultery. The sin of adultery.  I may seem to disregard God's grace, but this  is not so.  We are in a very specific context and speaking on those things.  It's difficult to assume what I believe on the basis of everything by this discussion alone.  You can ask arkstfan for one and I believe he will be able to honestly say, that even though I do not agree with you all on this particular topic, that I have always put forth in any discussion that I believe wholeheartedly in God's grace.  So I will explain this one last thing, and leave the discussion where it is, on my part. I hope that all of us will open our bibles and our hearts and study this again. We may all need a change of belief, myself included.

I believe that we are under God's grace  Romans 6:14

I believe that I come by that grace through faith in Christ. Eph 2:8; Romans 1:16,17

I believe that my faith must be proven by my works James 2:14-26

That the evidence of my love for God and the evidence that I know God is in the keeping of His commandments. 1John 2:3-6; Titus 3:4-8

I believe that God's grace teaches me that we should live soberly and righteously and godly, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts. Titus 2:11-14

I know that I am not perfect and that I will sin Romans 3:23,24, but that my desire to serve Him is shown by my willingness to make sacrifices so that it is He living in me. (Romans 12;1,2; Phil 2:12-16)

This is just the tip of the iceberg, but above all I believe Christ came and lived a sinlessly perfect life, was crucified, buried, and resurrected so that I would not have to bear the punishment that is due me for my sin.  And because He loved me enough to give His life for me, I love Him enough to offer my life in return so that He and His will might live through me.  It is not too much to ask that I leave all things behind in service to Him, and it is a privilege that I have the blessings of loving family and life here because I do things as He would will me to do.  Difficulties I face come to me because of the sin that I do stumble in.  But He is faithful to cleanse me of these sins, as I confess them and turn from them.  He has given me a glorious view of heaven with Him and I hold it too dearly to dare to think I know better than He what is best for me.  

May the Lord be with all of us as we endeavor to seek Him and rightly dividing the truth. (2Tim 2:15)

In Him and with my prayers,
His_helpmeet

[nerdneh]

I hope some observations may be of use in this long and difficult topic. Initially, let me present these affirmations:
1.   I believe strongly that marriage is supposed to last, that this is God's Will.  God gave up on certain Israelites, but He did not give up on Israel.  Certain marriages may go under, but we should not give up on marriage.

2.   I not only believe marriage should work, I also believe God wants all other human relationships to work, and this means one cannot run away from the responsibility of being a father, mother, brother or sister.  To do so is sin.  Merely being not divorced is not the same thing as being married in the full sense explored in such passages as Ephesians 5:21ff.  Many people have never gone to court for a de jure divorce who are divorced de facto, that is, other than tolerating the other's existence, there is no constructive marital interaction.  Many couples are one in name only, being actual strangers, often-hostile strangers, who happen to be living at the same address.  I believe if this situation is not challenged and corrected, it is sinful behavior.  Perhaps this behavior is, in some ways, more destructive than those who honestly face the fact their marriage has been destroyed, subsequently doing the best they can to get themselves and those they love out of a destructive situation.

3.   I also believe it is God's will that no person should sin in any area of their lives.  It is sinful to hate, to lie, to lust, to deceive, to bad mouth persons, etc.  All of this behavior is sinful.  There are no respectable sins in God's sight. God's standard is perfection.

4.   I believe only Jesus is perfect, and our only perfection is in Christ (cf. 1 Cor.1: 30-31).  All of us must have grace or we are lost without exception. The divorced are not the only ones who require grace. The single require it; the married require it, the old and the young as well, for no human can lack grace and see God.  Those who stay married with anything less than perfection, including those especially who fail to work on their relationships are in enormous need of God's grace.  Those whose marriages fail are in great need of His grace.  Everyone is in need of His grace—those who lie, those who gossip, those who are greedy, those who lust silently and openly, those who insult others, all are lost without repentance and reliance on God's grace.  The church, after all, is a group united on its needs, not its virtues.

5.   I believe, mainly because of erroneous interpretations of Matthew 19:9, persons in various locations teach every sin except divorce and remarriage can be forgiven.  This, perhaps unwittingly, leads to allowing known gossips, haters, flatterers, greedy persons, and lustful people to continue in good standing while the divorced and the divorced and remarried are singled out for prejudicial treatment and systematic exclusion.  I have heard first hand scores of sad tales of such screening out of those struggling in these areas of their lives.  I have yet to hear of a single gossip having a problem teaching a class, being chosen as an elder, or even preaching.  Unfortunately, many have made divorce and remarriage, even with adequate biblical reasons, an unforgivable sin.

Perhaps the whole business would have had happier results if the position had been taken on repentance and forgiveness rather than divorce and remarriage.  Simply put, can one fail in a marriage just as one fails in other areas of life?  That everyone fails dreadfully in some life area is obvious.  Observation of a procedure Jesus uses in Matthew 5 shows how every person with imagined holiness is seen for the sinner he or she is with no hope but Divine grace.  The focus is on God's righteousness, cf. "seek first God's kingdom and God's righteousness...(Matt 6:33).

[His_helpmeet]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (living4him @ May 28 2002,4:05)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]His Helpmate,
Is your name Mdd, or Mike dugger?  Because you know who I am then also .  It is good to hear from you again , my brother!  If I am mistaken, forgive me .          
                Lauren[/quote]
Lauren,

Sorry to disappoint you.  I'm Angi.  
I think I may have dealt with your question in a post I did a moment ago.  I'll go fix dinner for my girls and come back. Put another post if I muddied something again.  Or feel free to email me directly if that would get rid of some of the confusion with all the posts in between.

Angi

[janine]

MG : My, mg, how vitriolic of you.  Please register, do, and be a little light of truth for all us benighted liberals.  That way you can stand at the Judgement without our blood on your hands.
--------------------------------------------------------

Thanks, Bob, for chewing on that Greek for me.  I haven't the teeth for it.  I do get a lot of good out of gumming specific words & phrases, but all those tenses, other than the most obvious, tie me in knots.  

---------------------------------------------------------

P.S. Ace2: Let's not be too hard on ol' MG now... God did swallow up innocents, and demand babies slaughtered, and He did make a lake of fire, and if you try to take apart the process & ongoing love affair of salvation, by pulling out the parts you'd rather not push, like baptism, oh well... you'll be playing with fire... :0

I have so many questions on this.  In particular, people who become saved after a divorce and new marriage.  I don't know of an example in the bible where anyone is told to dissolve their current situation to receive salvation.  Also, I have always been curious where Paul explains that a christian is not under bondage if an unbeliever chooses to leave the marriage.  Any comments on this?

[charlie]

I'm somewhat new to this message board, and have been very impressed with how considerate and even-keeled everyone has been. I also find it interesting how different the viewpoints of so many are from the "old paths" of the cofC that has been our heritage. As someone once said, "traditions are to be molded by those who honor them"

That being said, I would like to hear what you have to say on Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage (sometimes MDR). Relevant scriptures would be Mt. 5:31-2, 19:1-12; Deut 24:1-4, Ezr. 10:10-17, Rom. 7:1-3; 1 Cor 5:1-2, 7:1-40.

This is an extraordinarily divisive topic in the church today. I personally know of 4 congregations in my immediate area who have split over it, and two sets of 2 that have reunited that had split over it. However, the mergings happened 30 years after the fact (some elders had to die first).

This is also an extremely important topic as divorce is so common in our society that we as a body of believers need to know how to minister to the needs of so many.

[Bill]

MrBill, Thank you for sharing your experience.  Love of God and loved by individuals and a church is what it is all about, isn't it?

[His_helpmeet]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (living4him @ May 28 2002,2:19)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]His Helpmate,
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, especially since we both hold our opnions before God. The analogy you gave seems to be saying more than what these scriptures do.

Matthew 5:28 "'But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.'"
and
1 Corinthians 6 : 16 "Do you know know that he who unites himself with a prostitute  is one with her in body?  For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."
I interpret them  literally especially since Paul goes back to Genesis in 1 Cor 6 to make a point.  I feel the answer is in understanding Romans .
Romans 4:15 " And where there is no law, there is no transgresson. "
How would you interpret Romans 4:15 in view of your position of dissolving a second unscriptural marriage and going back to the first?  Your analogy of dissolving a second marriage should be seen with an understanding of Romans and what it means to be a Christian who is under grace .I interpret it as we are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ and that if we sin , we simply repent and keep going  in our spiritual walk with God (Romans 8), not trying to undo and redo a second marriage  .  The kings of the O.T. had many wives .  The good kings included(ie David).  Yet the Lord knew that even before he created a David and could still call David "A man After his own heart" (Samual) .  God  doesn't seem to make it an issue .  
Hope you have a good day,
Striving[/quote]
We can disagree.  I was not trying to make an analogy though.  I was attempting to see it from the greek usage of the words point of view.  Please correct me if I have misunderstood the definitions give here by Thayer.

the definition of "to" in Matt 5:28 ("to lust after")
4314 pros {pros}  

a strengthened form of 4253; TDNT - 6:720,942; prep

AV - unto 340, to 203, with 43, for 25, against 24, among 20, at 11,
not tr 6, misc 53, vr to 1; 726

1) to the advantage of
2) at, near, by
3) to, towards, with, with regard to


"lust after"
1937 epithumeo {ep-ee-thoo-meh'-o}  

from 1909 and 2372; TDNT - 3:168,339; v

AV - desire 8, covet 3, lust 3, lust after 1, fain 1; 16

1) to turn upon a thing
2) to have a desire for, long for, to desire
3) to lust after, covet
3a) of those who seek things forbidden

I am afraid I do not understand your reference to Romans 4:15.  I understand this to say that for there to be a transgression there must a law to transgress against. Verse 16 explains that the promise is now granted to those who are of the law (Jews) and those who are of the faith of Abraham.
See Romans 6:15-16 "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?"
v18 says we become slaves of righteousness.  For the biblical comparison to continue, in order to be a slave, there must be a master that gives orders to be obeyed.  But having "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered" sets us free.  
We can not continue in sin (adultery, an action not just an attitude) just to prove the glory of grace (Rom 6:1).  We obey to show we slaves and bound to righteousness.  This is why we can not remain in a relationship that is adultery until the first spouse dies.

1Sam 8:7 "And the Lord said to Samuel, 'Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.'"

God allowed the people of Israel to have something that was bad for them.  When their ways had gone so far that they refused to listen to God and to Samuel, God allowed them to have what they wanted.  It doesn't mean He blessed it.  In fact He says they had rejected Him.

Jesus says the divorce was permitted by Moses because of the hardness of the heart of the people.  When did God ever put a stamp of approval upon stubborn disobedience?  His making provision to protect the women evil was done to is not the same as seeing this as an agreeable circumstance.  He made the Israelites a powerful nation under David as king, but this does not change the fact that the presence of a king at all was not in doing with God's wishes. Does that make sense?

[living4him]

Does anyone know why divorce is running rampant in the Churches of America and how we can encourage those of faith not to divorce? I heard a Christian speaker say last year that that the divorce rate in the Churches of America is around 50%.
According to this chart: http://beverlylahayeinstitute.org/publica...._2.gif.

Divorce went from 3.1 divorces to every 100 marriages in 1860 to 50.6 divorces to every 100 marriages in 2000.

In 1940 it was 16.5% per 100 marriages, peaked to about 50% in 1980 and has remained there, according to the chart.
Assuming the divorce rate in the Church is the same as the country, what do these statistics say as far as the spiritual condition of the Church ? Is it an indication of spiritual regression ?
Thanks for any replies,
Lauren

[living4him]

One other thought :
If sexual relations consumates a marriage :
1 Corinthians 6 : 16 "Do you know know that he who unites himself with a prostitute  is one with her in body?  For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."

and lust equals sex in God's eyes :

Matthew 5: "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already commtied adultery with her in his heart. "

Then using this analogy would not we all be married to the one we first lusted after (1 Cor6) instead of the one we are married to now? This is reason why  dissolving a second unscriptural marriage doesn't seem feasible .

Lauren

[Bill]

Amen, Terry.  Advising some one to break a covenant to rectify a broken covenant doesn't seem right.  In fact if you force someone to break a covenant to rectify a broken covenant, you have a greater problen than the person you are advising or forcing.  As I look at the way Jesus walked, this does not make sense to me.  Don't believe He would have done such a thing.

Bill

[living4him]

Terry, this is an interesting point that you made:

Sorry this is so fragmented but I've got alot going on right now. One other scripture I wanted to point to is 1Timothy 3 where instructions are given regarding the selection of church overseers. In 3:2 "he must be the husband of one wife." Apparently it was understood that their would be people in the church who either had multiple wives or had a divorce and remarriage situation. These men were not told to divorce the surplus wives, only not to aspire to the eldership.

It gives me something to think about.  I'm still not clear on God's stand on concubines.  Do you have an answer?  Does anyone know where and when God ordained concubines and if it was tolerated without the faithful being considered "living in sin" and when God reduced the rule to only one wife? How did God look upon them? Is pologamy O.K. in some circumstances?  Evidently it was before God took human form through Jesus..

Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, forever.

Lauren

[living4him]

How does telling a new convert to dissolve a second marriage support Jesus's view ?

Matthew 11:28-29 "Come to me , all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.  Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble and heart, , and you will find rest for your souls.  For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Lauren

[terry]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Terry,

In the top right hand corner of each post there is a "quote" button.  If you click on that it takes you a screen where you can type your response in the top box and edit the quote as needed in the bottom box.


I do remember the comment by Jonesy.  And I have considered what he said.  I considered the possibility of my misunderstanding enough to look the word up again so I could read what he had read and shown.  I posted after that the full definition of the word for "unmarried" or loosed in that verse.  It can mean any of those possibilities.  And for scripture to meet scripture (Matt 5:32 for instance) it must mean someone who hasn't been married before.   But I will continue to study it.  

As to the 1Tim thing,  as I've said I have to study the polygamus idea.  I never even thought of polygamy in that context.  I do have some ideas about it (of course) but I need to meditate on them some first.

Angi[/quote]
Angi,
I think I've got the quote thing down. Thanks for pointing that out. I also appreciate your willingness to discuss this topic. I am planning to study the polygamy thing further as well. I've already looked into the secular history of this but the information is really biased either in favor of polygamy or the Catholic church denying that it existed in any place they have ever been. Yikes :0 One researcher talked about the difficulty with all the mystique around this issue. I did find out that polygamy was banned in the Roman Empire.  However, it was practiced by some Jews and Asian countries at the time the Church was established. Some say that it was considered a sin to ask a man to break a covenant to anyone of these wives but that polygamy quickly died out as the church became established. 1Tim is requiring that only monogomous men aspire to the eldership. I just want to know who else there would be? I can't believe that remarried widowers would be placed in the same "need not apply" category as those who were greedy, boastful etc...Also, if the death of a spouse releases one from the law of marriage, than why upon remarriage would he be considered to be the husband to more than one wife. Why not just call him married? I will agree that it is possible that this is referring to divorced and remarried men. But if this is the case than we have to consider the fact that God must forgive adultery because these people were not cast out of the church for such. It is alot to think about. I really don't have the answers. Just alot of questions. I know I'm rambling now. Look forward to your response.
terry

[Bill]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Does anyone care about biblical authority? Matt 19:9 plainly says there is only one reason for divorce. Sure , society says anything at all is reason enough but God makes it clear through His word, fornication only. Death of a spouse, of course, re-marriage is allowed. How many times in the old and new testaments has God shown that He will not tolerate deviations from His instruction? Look in 2 Chron. 26  Uzziah thought he could do as he wanted because he had been blessed greatly by God in years past but he was punished. In Lev. 10:1-2 Nadab and Abihu followed all rules except  for the strange fire they offered. The whole book of Lev. tells of God's instruction on offerings (when -what -where - how) Where the fire comes from would seem trivial to me but the fact is God expects His will to be followed not ours. Some say God is a loving God and would not allow us to be lost. He is a loving God, to be sure, He provided us a way of salvation but He is also a "just God" which implies laws, rules, hence      justice. Why would I be so bold (arrogant) to say God will let me do things differently than was done in the first century church. Jude 1:3 says the faith was once delivered, that means it will not change and no other faith will be delivered to us. James 2:10 says if a man keeps the whole law and yet offends in one point he is 'guilty of all'. If you are guilty of all will you go to heaven? Why don't we just do what God says and keep our opinions out of it?   You say that is harsh ( a favorite word of the liberals) well, the bible is full of examples of God destroying those who chose the ways of man instead of His way. I think the fact that God killed transgressors was harsh but I know He did and that is sufficient for me to know He means what He says.
This site and the liberals who promote such  Shelly- Cope- Beam- Bell -Lucado and the like are going to have to bear a tremendous load of responsiblity for the souls they have led astray. I would never sleep again if I were guilty of contributing to such mass apostasy. My prayer would be they would turn to sound publications such as the Gospel Journal and even better how about the BIBLE![/quote]
mg

Here are two addresses of other threads that speaks to part of your post.


Precision Obedience

Nadab & Abihu



[!--EDIT|Bill|June 11 2002,5:08--]

[susieface]

Amen, Bob, amen!!

You know what gets me is the fact some say MDR is unforgiveable, but if restitution takes place by divorcing new spouse they can be forgiven and if one or both parties get weak,falter and fornicate, they can be forgiven because this wouldn't be "living in sin".  I do not get it. I never hear this brought up much.  Just something I think about.
Susie

[admin]

I don't post much but thought I would here.

I was a worship minister at a church in South Carolina. A very traditional church of Christ. The minister there was a nice guy, but a bit two faced. From the pulpit, he was just as traditional as most of the audience. In person, he would fit right in here at Grace Centered. He shouldn't have been two faced. But, anyway....

His son's wife tried to shoot him (him being the son). The guy divorced her. About two years later he remarried. The minister married him in the church building.

So one night--it was a Wednesday Bible study--during Bible class one by one people began bashing him. Saying it was unscriptural and he was a false teacher. It got crazy. Men were going up to the podium just to bash the minister. I was so angry. The minister did nothing. He said nothing except that he was very sorry. They made him admit that it was "wrong."

A short time after that I left that church. It takes a sick bunch of people to do such a thing. Sick.

[Bill]

Jane - I would appreciate it if you would send me the website addresses.  Thanks

Bill

[seekr]

Yes, Steve, our God heals as we learn to be more like Him. And the consequences of sin are far reaching as I have been in both places of being the betrayed and the betrayer. God's grace is greater than we could ever realize.

seekr

[Jones518]

I have to learn to use the quote feature.  Sorry for any confusion.  :D

[terry]

Angi,
Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit dwells within you? I just don't think that with the devil all around us all we have is our wits and written word. We also have a secret wisdom that is given to those who follow the Lord. 1Cor 2, Romans 8
God bless
terry

[His_helpmeet]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (terry @ May 31 2002,5:42)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I read back over that sermon. He certainly does not encourage or condone divorce. He also points out that God doesn't either. He does however show that people who have gone through a divorce need the healing powers of Jesus. I've never read his writings on IM because this is not an issue for me or my congregation. I also think our ears should always be itching to hear of God's goodness. The concern is when the audience is too apathetic to care one way or the other.[/quote]
Terry,

Itching ears is not used in the bible as a good thing.  It's something that leads to doing things according to our own desires.  2Tim 4:2-4.  These people have itching ears and it turned them AWAY from the truth, not towards it.  And we will only learn of the love of God through His word.  If we find some other way, it may the devil calling something sinful the love of God.  He did that to Eve you know.

Angi

[living4him]

Angi : "And if I have been unwilling to look at what you all have to say (which I have not, knowing what I have read and what I have thought), then you have too been unwilling to consider what I have put forth. "

Lauren: What you have said in your last post was very well put.   It is not that I've been unwilling to consider what you have put forth because I have considered it Angi, for years previous to this discussion and during this discussion.  It is just that it the interpretation of dissolving a second unscriptural marriage doesn't seem to fit in with the whole -or God's revealed will from Genesis to Revelation.  The scriptures given by you in the discussion to me were only a piece of that whole .  

Nonetheless, you have shown forthrightness and integrity in your presentation, and I thank you for that.  
Lauren ;)

[seekr]

Loose Cannon (love the name) excellent reply! That is how we look at the word, not through what WE dedeuce, but wht God shows us it means.

seekr

Mg,
You need to back up to Matt 5:27. I hope you have never had an impure thought in regards to sexual desire. If so, you are guilty of unforgiveable sin (as you describe it) and will be subjected to the judgement that you mention. That is, if this is how you judge others. The rest of us would prefer to leave these matters to God and all of his mercy.

kw

[charlie]

This is an older thread on MDR I am bumping back up front.

sounds very cultic to me admin for a church to do that.  I think they got doctrine but not JEsus.

Thanks, Wiley.
What you say about the sin of divorce being a forgivable sin is what Olan Hicks teaches in his book, What the Bible Says About Marriage, Divorce & Remarriage.  
   
I hope and pray people involved in MDR will do research on their own to determine as close as possible in their own mind, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, what the scriptures do say on MDR. I hope they will determine God's will for their lives
individually with the help of God.

Mr. Hicks said in one of his newsletters he was told of a particular Church of Christ sending out people in door to door evangelism and asking some people who were divorced and remarried to dissolve their marriages before they would present to them the message of salvation.  In my opinion, this is a very serious matter.  

Mr. Hicks travels the US teaching on the MDR subject. He attends the lectures, Tulsa Workshop, etc. I met him at his display booth in Nashville, or I may not have known of
this source. He says in his December newsletter, "People have suffered in divorce-remarriage situations because of what they didn't know and their leaders didn't know."  He will send a list of his materials if you write.  His address is Gospel
Enterprises, P.O. Box 1253, Searcy, AR 72145.  

There are many other sources on this subject.  Rubel Shelly also has a book or presentation on this subject.  

I have eight or nine websites which I will email to anyone interested. All of these sources are within the Church of Christ. I became interested in this when a friend was divorced
after her husband left her and she wished to marry again.  Her treatment by the CofC she attending would have run me away fast; but she found a loving congregation, got
married, and she still attends a CofC.

I believe this is a very important issue to the spiritual life and health of individuals. Thanks for this message board where people can get help.  People can use computers to access a
wealth of research already done to help them make well thought-out decisions.  

God Bless
Jane

[Bill]

segell (Steve), thank you so very much for sharing your story.  I'm beginning to understand why you have such a deep relationship with the Lord.  His wisdom and love shows through each of your posts.  I am so glad that I can call you brother and that each of us has a big brother named Jesus Christ.

Bill