The Jews Broke the Lease and Lost the Kingdom

[thethinker]

TO ALL,

I had posted this on another site and decided to duplicate it here.

Jesus CLEARLY taught that the Jews blew it when they killed the Son

33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he LEASED it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?

[Lively Stone]

THE PLAN OF THE PEOPLE IN THE LAND

     So, God has a people and he has a land. He has never changed his mind about either. He has a plan for his people in the land. If we had lived a century or so ago, we would have sounded like crazy people had we talked about Israel returning to their land. Yet, it has now happened, and much of it in the lifetime of people living today.

       The statisticians tell us that in the next few years most of the Jewish people in the world will actually live in the land of Israel. Centuries ago the prophets of the Bible talked of this happening. This was, in fact, an oft repeated theme of the prophets (cf. Isa. 43:5-7; Jer. 31:7-9). They all knew that someday the people of Israel would return to their native land. We have lived to see the word of the prophets come true. Just in the last decade over a million new immigrants have returned home to Israel. They have come from the north (former USSR) and south (Ethiopia) just as Isaiah said they would.

     In the last century Jews have come home to Israel from over one hundred nations. In fact, there are many countries today where Jews lived for centuries that are almost empty of their Jewish populations. Not only did the Jews come home, but their cities were rebuilt, their culture was reestablished and their ancient Hebrew language was restored.

     God has a plan concerning their return. Once the bulk of them are in the land, God will bring a profound spiritual change to the people. In Ezekiel 36:24-28, we see that they will be sprinkled and cleansed. A new heart will be given to them and a new spirit. They will be changed into an obedient people who call upon their Messiah.

     There are many good things in store at this point for both Jews and the Gentiles, but we do not have space to deal with them here, or even to list them. We can only say that God's eternal plan will then be worked out for Israel, for the Church and for the world. It will be worked out in the physical land of Israel and with the people who have returned miraculously from all the nations of earth. The end result will be an eternal age of peace and blessing for all mankind. This is how God's plan will end.

     There have been many peace plans for Israel and for the world, but this one will really bring peace. It will be a lasting peace - an eternal peace.

- Jim Gerrish   

http://www.churchisraelforum.com/index.html                 

[Lively Stone]

John Piper - God's Plan for Israel

[Consumingfire]

Who was the Kingdom given to after they "broke it."

[Jaime]

To begin with, the 3000 broken off natural branches that were grafted back during Pentecost in Acts 2

[Amo]

The Church is now the Israel of God.  Thus has she been given the attributes of the same.

Exod 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Israel was said to be a peculiar people of God, a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.  The Church of Christ is given all the same attributes.

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Though many of Israel would not be God's people, yet the number of the children of Israel would be as the sand of the sea.  This would be accomplished when those who were not called God's people, should be called the sons of the living God.  The Church is composed of those who were not the people of God, who became the people of God. They are the children of promise that are counted for the seed, which are the children of God. They are no longer strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints and of the very household of God.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

1 Pet 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

As Israel was called to be a holy people unto God, so the Church is called to be a holy people unto God.

Deut 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

AS Israel were a people of inheritance to God, so the Church are a people of inheritance to God.

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

As the Lord was the shepherd of Israel, so the Lord is the shepherd of the Church.



Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

As Israel was saved with everlasting salvation, so the Church is saved with eternal salvation.



Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. 12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

Exod 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary;that I may dwell among them.

Exod 29:44 And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office.
45 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
46 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

As God placed His temple in the midst of Israel, that He might dwell among them, so Christ became the living temple and dwelt among us.  The Church is connected to God through His Son Jesus Christ in a way far superior to that capable of being so during the old covenant dispensation. God became one of us, and therefore the living temple of God in human flesh, of which the Church is the body.  Now all who are in Christ are truly literal flesh and blood children of God.

Isa 54: 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Hosea 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

As God was an husband to the nation of Israel, so now is the Church married to God in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Again it is in a far superior way that the Church is betrothed to God in Christ. As a man and a woman become one flesh in marriage, so humanity and God became one flesh in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who literally became one with our human flesh in order to live the life we could not live, and die the death we could not die. 

Thus all who are in Christ are the literal flesh and blood children of God.  These things the old covenant nation of Israel only pointed to, have been accomplished upon us, the new covenant Israel of God.  PRAISE GOD'S PURE, RIGHTEOUS, HOLY, UNDEFILED, AND AWESOME NAME IN AND THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST FOR OUR UNDESERVED SALVATION AND EXALTATION AS THE LITERAL SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD.

Now all who are in Christ are the Israel of God, whether Jew or Gentile.  Now all those who reject the same are none of His, and have no part of the kingdom of God or the gospel of the same, whether Jew or Gentile.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[pointmade]

Jaime: "To begin with, the 3000 broken off natural branches that were grafted back during Pentecost in Acts 2"

How were the 3000 broken off grafted back in?
Show Peter a copy of their pedigree going back to Abraham?
Sacrifice a red heifer?
Ask why the thief on the cross was not baptized?
Hey Peter...when will Jesus set up his earthly kingdom?
Any news on the rapture?

No...right there it is in Acts 2:41 hidden between the rapture and the thousand year reign.
"Then they that gladly received his (Peter's) words were baptized:
and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

You have to have professional help to miss that.
Augustine, Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Armin, the line of the papacy, Wesley's, Whitefield, John Henry Newman,
Edwin Ervin and the Plymouth Brethren, Joseph Smith (Mormons) William Boothe,
Billy Sunday, Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim and Tami Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Rex Humbard, Oral Roberts,
Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, and John Piper and a hosts of lessor lights
who would not read the writting on the wall.
"Repent and be baptized EVERYONE of you in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38).
Awh...come on Peter! there has to be more to salvation than water baptism...I can't swim.
What about the 144000? Won't I need a red heifer?

Why would the professionals nor believe Peter?
Oh! they had to have a Holy Spirit "experience."...
They chose to closed their eyes; said a little pious prayer and asked Jesus into their heart;
and presto, a warm feeling would fill their soul as they sang Amazing Grace without the instrument....

Peter's words were not good enough for these "professional" hirelings (John 10:12)
They did not want to enter the kingdom like the three thousand at Pentecost.
They were a special breed:...most wore their collar backwards....
Made them stand out in a crowd as the offering was taken.

Sad, but true, These "hirelings" let the wolves scatter the sheep....
Time will tell if these professionals will be among the "goats" at Judgment. (Matthew 25:41-46).

[Jaime]

I don't see the disagreement. I agree they received the word, repented and were baptized. That is their grafting back in as broken off natural branches. Who do you think they were? They certainly weren't gentiles? More natural branches will be grafted back on when the fullness of the wild branches comes in per Romans 11. I never said they needed the red heifer. I have always contended that the Jews will have to come to Christ just as all of us gentiles are required. The difference is you apparently think that none will. I contend that as Paul wrote in Romans 11, the blinders will fall off of some and some of the broken off natural branches will be grafted back on. the overarching premise of Romans 11 is that God is not through with the Jews. A remnant will be preserved, though faith in Yeshua as their Lord and Messiah.

[pointmade]

Jaime: "I don't see the disagreement. I agree they received the word, repented and were baptized. That is their grafting back in as broken off natural branches. Who do you think they were? They certainly weren't gentiles? More natural branches will be grafted back on when the fullness of the wild branches comes in per Romans 11.

And what would a "natural branch" be?
Maybe a blond blue eyed Zionist from Paducah, Kentucky who is saved by race
and you by baptism "into Christ."?

That would be more than "one way" to be saved would it not?
If you look at Romans 11:26 again it reads :
"At that time all Israel will be saved."

Question: In what way will all Israel be saved?
Verse 23..."If they abide not still in unbelief, shall they be grafted in."
God will graft them back in when they obey the Gospel.
So,  The "remnant" who obeys the gospel by faith.

There is not a Zionist Jew in all Israel who believes the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
And they make fun of "millennial Christians" who want to safe em..
Just keep sending the money.....and visit us in old downtown Jerusalem..lol..lol

It is the "remnants" that will be saved, not "ALL" national Israel.

[Jaime]

Did not say anyone was saved by any method that what I was saved. The miracle is the scales being removed from their partially blinded eyes as Paul said.

I never said anything but that a remnant will be saved. There will be a remnant of natural branches that will, after the fullness of the gentiles   You seem to be arguing with someone other than me. God always dealt with a remnant each time. He certainly didn't save the disobedient generation in the wilderness, but always a remnant.

Whatever branch, wild or natural is on the olive tree (God's Israel, not national Israel) will be saved. If you agree with that, we have no issue. If you say there are no longer any natural branches that potentially may accept the Gospel, I disagree.

I do believe Jerusalem will be where Jesus comes back to per Zechariah 14. Will all the inhabitants of Jerusalem be saved? I seriously doubt it.

[thethinker]

John Piper - God's Plan for Israel

God's ACTUAL plan for Israel:

33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he LEASED it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?

[thethinker]

Who was the Kingdom given to after they "broke it."

It was given to the disciples and they included the gentiles. Jesus told them that He was giving THEM the keys to the kingdom.

thinker

[Jaime]

Some natural broken off branches will be grafted back on the olive tree. Not per a video, but per Romans 11. By the same method anyone else  (the wild branches) are grafted on. By faith in Jesus Christ.

[thethinker]

To begin with, the 3000 broken off natural branches that were grafted back during Pentecost in Acts 2

Jaime,

I may agree with you on this one. I must hear more though.

thanks,

thinker

[Jaime]

To begin with, the 3000 broken off natural branches that were grafted back during Pentecost in Acts 2

Jaime,

I may agree with you on this one. I must hear more though.

thanks,

thinker

Hear more about what? And why only MAY agree? Were the 3000 not Jews? And was their salvation not a grafting back in of branches broken off by the rejection and crucifiction of Jesus? The very thing that pricked their hearts?

[Lively Stone]

John Piper - God's Plan for Israel

God's ACTUAL plan for Israel:

33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he LEASED it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?

[Lively Stone]

Jeremiah 30:7-9
In all history there has never been such a time of terror. It will be a time of trouble for my people Israel. Yet in the end they will be saved!
For in that day,

[thethinker]

To begin with, the 3000 broken off natural branches that were grafted back during Pentecost in Acts 2

Jaime,

I may agree with you on this one. I must hear more though.

thanks,

thinker

Hear more about what? And why only MAY agree? Were the 3000 not Jews? And was their salvation not a grafting back in of branches broken off by the rejection and crucifiction of Jesus? The very thing that pricked their hearts?

I should have been specific. The olive tree was completed by ad70. It had ALL its branches by then and since then it bears olive fruit.

Root: Christ

Branches: Jews and the lost Israelite tribes (lost Israelite tribes = gentiles)

Olive fruit: post ad70 saints of all races of men

When the fulness of the lost tribes (gentiles) were grafted in, then the remnant of natural branches were grafted back in. The tree was completed and bears olive fruit (men of all races).

thinker

[thethinker]

Jeremiah 30:7-9
In all history there has never been such a time of terror. It will be a time of trouble for my people Israel. Yet in the end they will be saved!
For in that day,

[Lively Stone]

Olive trees are famous for their longevity and fruitfulness which can last for centuries. It is prized for its fruit and wood. The olive tree symbolizes peace and victory.

The tree is well known in the Mediterranean area, so Paul knew the Romans would be able relate to this "word picture". Paul's metaphor found in Romans 11 is to both teach and warn the Gentile believers.

Contrary to most church teachings, the olive tree that is discussed in Romans 11:17, that is cultivated by God, is Israel. Some Bible commentators would have us to believe that the cultivated tree is the church. This is variously known as " replacement theology" and is unbiblical. Gentile believers have not replaced Israel! While they are part of God's plan, they certainly are not the whole plan!

God's promises to the Jewish people were not set aside and given over to the church, but rather the church was brought in as part of God's plan to bring the promise of salvation to all and will cause the Jew to turn to her Messiah Yeshua (Romans 1:16, 10:19, 11:11)

Romans 11:11
Did God's people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves.

[thethinker]

Lively Stone wrote:

Who's desperate to hold onto their delusion about God's beloved Israel being cut off and without hope? Videos only help me stand up for Israel against such misinformation.

The "beloved" of Israel were alawys the ELECT remnant.

thinker

[thethinker]

Jeremiah 30:7-9
In all history there has never been such a time of terror. It will be a time of trouble for my people Israel. Yet in the end they will be saved!
For in that day,

[Lively Stone]

Jeremiah 30:7-9
In all history there has never been such a time of terror. It will be a time of trouble for my people Israel. Yet in the end they will be saved!
For in that day,

[thethinker]

Jeremiah 30:7-9
In all history there has never been such a time of terror. It will be a time of trouble for my people Israel. Yet in the end they will be saved!
For in that day,

[Jaime]

Thinker, I disagree that the fullness of the Gentiles occurred in AD 70. All believers, natural branches and wild branches are still being grafted on.

[thethinker]

Thinker, I disagree that the fullness of the Gentiles occurred in AD 70. All believers, natural branches and wild branches are still being grafted on.

Why did God plant the olive tree? He planted it to bear olive fruit. If all are branches, then who will be the olive fruit? The planting has to be accomplished and the fruit bearing to begin some time.

The planting is finished and all the branches were grafted on. Post ad70 saints are the olive fruit.

thinker

[Jaime]

So the fullness of the gentiles has come in? No more will be saved. That is preposterous. The blinders have not come off of the Jews. That only happens when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Could be getting close though.

Also the Gentiles have not provoked the Jews to jealousy unto salvation, unless that also happened in the dusty ash heap in AD 70.

[thethinker]

So the fullness of the gentiles has come in? No more will be saved. That is preposterous. The blinders have not come off of the Jews. That only happens when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Could be getting close though.

Also the Gentiles have not provoked the Jews to jealousy unto salvation, unless that also happened in the dusty ash heap in AD 70.

Please stop that! You know that I did not say that no more will be saved. I said that the tree has all it branches and that all post ad70 "SAINTS" are the olive FRUIT.

Paul was speaking about the grafting in of the branches of the olive tree. This takes only within its scope Jews and Gentiles of Paul's generation. The natural branches (Jews) of Paul's generation were to be grafted back in after the fulness of the Gentiles of Paul's generation came in. Then the tree would be completed having ALL its branches so they could bear olive fruit. ALL post ad70 believers are the olive fruit of the tree.

Christ: the root

Jews and Gentiles (the lost tribes = Gentiles): the branches

Olive fruit: post ad70 believers.

I ask you again: If all are branches, then who will be the olive fruit?

thinker

[Jaime]

You please stop that! God's olive tree is God's people. It is the final product. The saved are grafted on whether natural or wild.

You may be confusing the olive tree with the vine.

[thethinker]

You please stop that! God's olive tree is God's people. It is the final product. The saved are grafted on whether natural or wild.

You may be confusing the olive tree with the vine.

No Jaime,

The fruit is the "final product". How can you say that the tree is the final product? Do you go to the produce section and at your grocers and put grape vines in your shopping cart that don't have grapes on them? God planted the olive tree to bear olive fruit.

Jesus cursed the fig tree because it had NO FIGS on its branches. God plants trees to bring forth FRUIT. Post ad70 saints are the FRUIT and not the tree itself.

Once again,

Root: Jesus

Branches: Jews and Gentiles of Paul's generation.

Olive fruit: All post ad70 saints.

thinker

[Jaime]

Fig tree yes, vine yes. The olive tree is God's people. God adds the branches. The tree just gets bigger and bigger. God is not in the business of producing olives, IF the olive tree is symbolic of His people and it is.

[pointmade]

Jaime: "You please stop that! God's olive tree is God's people. It is the final product. The saved are grafted on whether natural or wild.

You may be confusing the olive tree with the vine."

Or, maybe the "fig tree" of Mark 11-....
It is this tree that Jesus cursed and caused to wither.
Have any idea who the fig tree represents?

Without Mark's inspired words we would not know when or why
He caused the tree to wither....
The fig tree represents national Israel.....
Do you believe He will "graft in" a withered fig branch into an olive tree....??

So. the Jews "broke the lease and lost the kingdom."

[Jaime]

The olive tree in Romans 11 represents God's people the natural branches and the wild branches. You are mixing symbols. Paul made it pretty simple, except for a Preterist!

[thethinker]

Fig tree yes, vine yes. The olive tree is God's people. God adds the branches. The tree just gets bigger and bigger. God is not in the business of producing olives, IF the olive tree is symbolic of His people and it is.

The olive tree is NOT symbolic of ALL God's people of all generations. Paul said that the remnant of Israel existed in his own time.

"Even so at the present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace" (11:5).

The WHOLE fixed number of the remnant of Israel was to be saved in Paul's time. Paul compared them with the fixed number of the remnant of Elijah's time (v 4).

This implies that the fulness of the gentiles (the lost tribes) must have been added in Paul's time because the remnant of the Jews were to be saved in conjunction with them coming in. So ALL the branches, natural and unnatural were grafted in and the olive tree was completed. Consequently, "all Israel" (the olive tree) is NOT all God's people of all generations. "All Israel" (the olive tree) was the remnant of the Jews plus the fulness of the lost tribes (gentiles) of Paul's generation. They alone constituted the olive tree with ALL its branches. And they brought forth olive fruit (post ad70 saints).

Your assertion that the tree just keeps on getting bigger and bigger makes no sense. It is the FRUIT that exceeds by far the number of branches. All the succeeding generation of Christians are the olive fruit. The traditional view that the olive tree is all God's people of all generations has no basis in exegesis nor in logic nor common sense.



thinker

[Jaime]

Nope sorry