understanding dark sentences

[howard]

what is the dark sentences this king will understand?

Daniel 8:22-24

22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

what is dark sentences?

dark[/b
]Lacking or having very little light: a dark corner. Lacking brightness: a dark day. Reflecting only a small fraction of incident light. Of a shade tending toward black in comparison with...


sentence

A grammatical unit that is syntactically independent and has a subject that is expressed or, as in imperative sentences, understood and a predicate that contains at least one finite verb. A maxim....

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/?s=sentences

[howard]

Daniel 5:12
Forasmuch as an excellent spirit, and knowledge, and understanding, interpreting of dreams, and shewing of hard sentences, and dissolving of doubts, were found in the same Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar: now let Daniel be called, and he will shew the interpretation.


Daniel understood sentences.

should we?

[howard]

Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

to understand dark sentences the eyes must be opened to see and the ears must be opened to hear.

to understand hard sentences as Daniel the same principle applies

[howard]

is this a dark sentence?

The Rapture.

a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. knows that there is no rapture of the church.

he read where John wrote


Revelation 20:4-6 (King James Version)

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


John and Martha understood what is written


John 11:23-25

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


it is a dark sentences when the rapture replaced the 1st resurrection.

1st means nothing before it
last day means not another day after

   

[howard]

in the end time Jesus said because of sin love shall wax cold

Matthew 24:12
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

many false prophets have gone into the world to deceive many

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

and for many reason like this one

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

we have to underrstand what dark sentences are and come out of the darkness and except the light(truth) 

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

[howard]

Jesus reveal his secrets to his people


Daniel 2:28
But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

Daniel 2:22
He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

what must we do?

Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Jesus said all things.

what other dark sentences do we need to know even though they are written in the pages of the bible?

the king of fierce countenance knows them and we would to.

[howard]

back to the rapture

Jesus said here in Matthew that the very elect might be decieved, we see and know as well as the king of fierce countenance that the very elect are here on earth even while the AOD is destroying the holy people 

QUESTION

Is it logical to say that if there was a rapture the VERY ELECT should be part of the rapture and not have the temptation of being deceived?

Matthew 24

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


rapture or resurrection which is dark and which is light?

which should we understand?

[howard]

for those of us that have eyes to see and ears to hear John wrote that the saints will have war made against them


Revelation 13:6-8

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

the teaching of the day say that the saints will be in a rapture

we read that the saints will be at war and are overcome.

dark sentence today. 

[larry2]

what is the dark sentences this king will understand?

Daniel 8:22-24

22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Dear Howard, I hope the following excerpt from the prophesy study of Daniel I posted will shed some light on it for you.

Daniel 8:23. "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up." This latter time carries us down to times of the end. Daniel is certainly hearing to realize that no, this is not going to happen in my day. I'm sure that he wished that it would and of course he knew of the captivity of the Jews was going to end after seventy years, but what God is showing him through these visions and throughout the book of Daniel is that these things are going to come to pass a long time after that you are gone Daniel. Now when we read here of the transgressors, whether you're talking about Israel, or you're talking about the nations, they point to exactly to the same time. It tells us of the fullness of the judgment that is going to be poured out during the tribulation period for the Jews especially the time of Jacob's trouble. The king we are talking about here is the false prophet. We have already established him as one of religiousness, but here is some more. He is "Of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences." That is, he understands mysteries just like a prophet would. Now God spoke to His prophets in mysteries and dark speeches and He said of Moses, I speak to others in dark speeches and things like that but with Moses this is not so, I'm going to speak with him face to face. But the true prophets understood these similes, dark speeches, and  symbols.

[larry2]

The Rapture.

there is no rapture of the church.

Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. What are the candlesticks in scripture? Revelation 1:20 . . . the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
 
Revelation 11:12  And they (The two witnesses = candlesticks = churches?) heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Notice the words colored blue: Come up hither, and caught up; how do they get to heaven and God's throne?

My thoughts

[daq]

for those of us that have eyes to see and ears to hear John wrote that the saints will have war made against them


Revelation 13:6-8

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

the teaching of the day say that the saints will be in a rapture

we read that the saints will be at war and are overcome.

dark sentence today. 

The War is already raging unseen in the minds of so many so called prophecy scholars, pseudo-prophets, and little horn `Aza'zel-double-mirror-image-counterfeits and antichrists. And until the end of the War, desolations are determined, yet each in his own mow`ed-appointed time...

Daniel 8:23 TUA
23.  Uwb'achriyt malkuwtam, khatem haposh`iym, ya`mod melek `az- paniym, uwmebiyn chiydowt.

Daniel 9:23
23.  And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, shall stand up a king of the countenance of `Az- even understanding dark sentences.

Strong's Ref. #5794
Romanized  `az
Pronounced az
from HSN5810; strong, vehement, harsh:
KJV--fierce, + greedy, mighty, power, roughly, strong.

Strong's Ref. #5810
Romanized  `azaz
Pronounced aw-zaz'
a primitive root; to be stout (literally or figuratively):
KJV--harden, impudent, prevail, strengthen (self), be strong.

Strong's Ref. #5795 (Daniel 8:8)
Romanized  `ez
Pronounced aze
from HSN5810; a she-goat (as strong), but masculine in plural (which also is used ellipt. for goat's hair):
KJV--(she) goat, kid.

Strong's Ref. #5799
Romanized  `Aza'zel
Pronounced az-aw-zale'
from HSN5795 and HSN0235; goat of departure; the scapegoat:
KJV--scapegoat.

[howard]

what is the dark sentences this king will understand?

Daniel 8:22-24

22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Dear Howard, I hope the following excerpt from the prophesy study of Daniel I posted will shed some light on it for you.

Daniel 8:23. "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up." This latter time carries us down to times of the end. Daniel is certainly hearing to realize that no, this is not going to happen in my day. I'm sure that he wished that it would and of course he knew of the captivity of the Jews was going to end after seventy years, but what God is showing him through these visions and throughout the book of Daniel is that these things are going to come to pass a long time after that you are gone Daniel. Now when we read here of the transgressors, whether you're talking about Israel, or you're talking about the nations, they point to exactly to the same time. It tells us of the fullness of the judgment that is going to be poured out during the tribulation period for the Jews especially the time of Jacob's trouble. The king we are talking about here is the false prophet. We have already established him as one of religiousness, but here is some more. He is "Of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences." That is, he understands mysteries just like a prophet would. Now God spoke to His prophets in mysteries and dark speeches and He said of Moses, I speak to others in dark speeches and things like that but with Moses this is not so, I'm going to speak with him face to face. But the true prophets understood these similes, dark speeches, and  symbols.

what is the dark sentences this king will understand?

Daniel 8:22-24

22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Dear Howard, I hope the following excerpt from the prophesy study of Daniel I posted will shed some light on it for you.

Daniel 8:23. "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up." This latter time carries us down to times of the end. Daniel is certainly hearing to realize that no, this is not going to happen in my day. I'm sure that he wished that it would and of course he knew of the captivity of the Jews was going to end after seventy years, but what God is showing him through these visions and throughout the book of Daniel is that these things are going to come to pass a long time after that you are gone Daniel. Now when we read here of the transgressors, whether you're talking about Israel, or you're talking about the nations, they point to exactly to the same time. It tells us of the fullness of the judgment that is going to be poured out during the tribulation period for the Jews especially the time of Jacob's trouble. The king we are talking about here is the false prophet. We have already established him as one of religiousness, but here is some more. He is "Of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences." That is, he understands mysteries just like a prophet would. Now God spoke to His prophets in mysteries and dark speeches and He said of Moses, I speak to others in dark speeches and things like that but with Moses this is not so, I'm going to speak with him face to face. But the true prophets understood these similes, dark speeches, and  symbols.

Hi Larry

what are you trying to shed light on for me?

[howard]

The Rapture.

there is no rapture of the church.

Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. What are the candlesticks in scripture? Revelation 1:20 . . . the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
 
Revelation 11:12  And they (The two witnesses = candlesticks = churches?) heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Notice the words colored blue: Come up hither, and caught up; how do they get to heaven and God's throne?

My thoughts

this is the resurrection

[howard]

for those of us that have eyes to see and ears to hear John wrote that the saints will have war made against them


Revelation 13:6-8

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

the teaching of the day say that the saints will be in a rapture

we read that the saints will be at war and are overcome.

dark sentence today.  

The War is already raging unseen in the minds of so many so called prophecy scholars, pseudo-prophets, and little horn `Aza'zel-double-mirror-image-counterfeits and antichrists. And until the end of the War, desolations are determined, yet each in his own mow`ed-appointed time...

Daniel 8:23 TUA
23.  Uwb'achriyt malkuwtam, khatem haposh`iym, ya`mod melek `az- paniym, uwmebiyn chiydowt.

Daniel 9:23
23.  And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, shall stand up a king of the countenance of `Az- even understanding dark sentences.

Strong's Ref. #5794
Romanized  `az
Pronounced az
from HSN5810; strong, vehement, harsh:
KJV--fierce, + greedy, mighty, power, roughly, strong.

Strong's Ref. #5810
Romanized  `azaz
Pronounced aw-zaz'
a primitive root; to be stout (literally or figuratively):
KJV--harden, impudent, prevail, strengthen (self), be strong.

Strong's Ref. #5795 (Daniel 8:8)
Romanized  `ez
Pronounced aze
from HSN5810; a she-goat (as strong), but masculine in plural (which also is used ellipt. for goat's hair):
KJV--(she) goat, kid.

Strong's Ref. #5799
Romanized  `Aza'zel
Pronounced az-aw-zale'
from HSN5795 and HSN0235; goat of departure; the scapegoat:
KJV--scapegoat.

the great tribulation has not started
God saints have not been revealed
and the passage in Revelation is a physical war with the saints the spiritual war started well before the GT.

[howard]

Here is a dark sentence is the rapture the last day? according to Jesus he will raise(caught up) his people on the last day


John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

notice it says 5 times that the Lord will raise up his own on the last day

is the rapture the last day.

is the resurrection a dark sentence?
is the rapture a dark sentence?

raise and caught up do mean the same.

[howard]

lets take these same verses and apply it to another dark sentence that being taught today

going to heaven when we die.

keep note on what Jesus and Martha said here


John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


according to Jesus we are raised on the last day. How did people get to heaven if the lasy day is not here?

[howard]

what about these words from Jesus.


John 3:12-14
12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

is going to heaven a dark sentence?

or

is the above words from Jesus a dark sentence?

[howard]

is church doctrine(teachings) dark sentences or is the word of God dark sentences?

dark in the sense that no one sees the truth it in.

God words are not dark in the sense of dark meaning no truth.

God's word is dark because not many can see it.

remember these verses here


Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Ezekiel 12:2
Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

a person who cannot hear or see lives in darkness
the Lord gives us the ability to hear and see his word
a rebellious house is the church or so-called people of God who claim to know God but don't understand or know God because they can't see or hear his words.

please filp over to Roman 1 and read all the chapter

I will put a few verse to focus on

Romans 1

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

  look what happened to these group of people who God showed his words to, yet they did not hold it in truth.

we learn a lot in this chapter even the dark sentence of OSAS or Jesus words

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


is the church teaching of OSAS a dark sentence or is
Jesus words shall be saved unto the end a dark sentence

[howard]

why a topic like this?

keep in mind beloved of the Lord why Satan was kicked out of heaven

take heed to these words a warning to us

Rev 12

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


the accuser and Deceiver of the whole World is with us today.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

what is the dark sentences this king will understand?

Daniel 8:22-24

22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

what is dark sentences?

dark[/b
]Lacking or having very little light: a dark corner. Lacking brightness: a dark day. Reflecting only a small fraction of incident light. Of a shade tending toward black in comparison with...


sentence

A grammatical unit that is syntactically independent and has a subject that is expressed or, as in imperative sentences, understood and a predicate that contains at least one finite verb. A maxim....

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/?s=sentences

Well, the primary fulfillment of the prophecy happened in the days of the Antiochuses.  Antiochus Epiphanes IV in particular waged a cultural war, first using religious propaganda, and political machinations, and later a literal war, upon his vassals in Judea.

He would probably be the first/primary fulfillment here, as he received a Classical Greek education, and was a radical Hellenizer.  He was also Syrian and probably spoke some sort of Semitic dialect.  And he also spent some years as a Roman political "prisoner."  Note that Rome was in the habit of taking princes of other countries prisoner, and giving them a Roman education in rule and warfare and organization of empires, and then sending them home to their native countries for the purpose of later having them take over, to become good Romanized vassal-rulers.  Antiochus did his job well, usurping the throne almost immediately upon his return.

It wouldn't be far-fetched to say Antiochus understood dark sentences.  He was/is one of the best examples of a ruler coming to power through political intrigue rather than military conquest, in history.

Wiki for general info and references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_Epiphanes

[larry2]

The Rapture.

there is no rapture of the church.

Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. What are the candlesticks in scripture? Revelation 1:20 . . . the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
 
Revelation 11:12  And they (The two witnesses = candlesticks = churches?) heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Notice the words colored blue: Come up hither, and caught up; how do they get to heaven and God's throne?

My thoughts

this is the resurrection

I suppose the thing to ask would be what you think the coined word "Rapture" means? In actuality there are only two resurrections; one of all in Christ, and one of the dead.

Does the first resurrection need be one event at the last trump? For instance, if there is a last trump, can there not be previous trumps as portions of the first resurrection are caught up unto God and His throne?

Let's consider the following scripture. Is Christ part of the first resurrection? What of those that rose from their graves in Matthew 27:52. Was the Apostle John shown different groups appearing in heaven at different times; the twenty-four elders. the great multitude, and the 144,000?

1 Corinthians 15:20   But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Matthew 27:52, "52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.    

[howard]

The Rapture.

there is no rapture of the church.

Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. What are the candlesticks in scripture? Revelation 1:20 . . . the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
 
Revelation 11:12  And they (The two witnesses = candlesticks = churches?) heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Notice the words colored blue: Come up hither, and caught up; how do they get to heaven and God's throne?

My thoughts

this is the resurrection

I suppose the thing to ask would be what you think the coined word "Rapture" means? In actuality there are only two resurrections; one of all in Christ, and one of the dead.

Does the first resurrection need be one event at the last trump? For instance, if there is a last trump, can there not be previous trumps as portions of the first resurrection are caught up unto God and His throne?

Let's consider the following scripture. Is Christ part of the first resurrection? What of those that rose from their graves in Matthew 27:52. Was the Apostle John shown different groups appearing in heaven at different times; the twenty-four elders. the great multitude, and the 144,000?

1 Corinthians 15:20   But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Matthew 27:52, "52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.  

the word rapture according to the webster dictionary means

Definition of RAPTURE
1: an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion

2a : a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion

b : a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rapture

[howard]

I suppose the thing to ask would be what you think the coined word "Rapture" means? In actuality there are only two resurrections; one of all in Christ, and one of the dead.

Does the first resurrection need be one event at the last trump? For instance, if there is a last trump, can there not be previous trumps as portions of the first resurrection are caught up unto God and His throne?

Let's consider the following scripture. Is Christ part of the first resurrection? What of those that rose from their graves in Matthew 27:52. Was the Apostle John shown different groups appearing in heaven at different times; the twenty-four elders. the great multitude, and the 144,000?

1 Corinthians 15:20   But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Matthew 27:52, "52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.   

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

how many times can the dead rise and be changed?

[howard]

where will Jesus throne be when he returns?

Luke 1

30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

when Jesus return his throne will be in Jerusalem here on earth.
David throne was in Jerusalem here on earth

the Anti-Christ understands this

Paul lets us know the the man of sin will sit in the temple of God

2 Thessalonians 2

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

the man of sin is not going to heaven to sit in the temple where Jesus and the FATHER dwells

so this dark sentence is Jesus will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem on earth.

Jesus kingdom and rule will be here on earth

this is a dark sentence that a lot of our beloved christian brothers and sister don't know 

[howard]

is it a dark sentence concerning the dwelling place of Jesus in the future?


Psalm 132
1Lord, remember David, and all his afflictions:

2How he sware unto the LORD, and vowed unto the mighty God of Jacob;

3Surely I will not come into the tabernacle of my house, nor go up into my bed;

4I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids,

5Until I find out a place for the LORD, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob.

11The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

12If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.

13For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.  

14This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

[howard]

we know and understand man came from the earth and man returns back to the earth.

at funerals the preachers tell the living that the dead will or has made his home coming yet the dead is still in the casket inside the funeral home.

the dead won't make the home coming until the dead is lowered in to the ground from which the body was formed from.

listen to the words of Jesus


Gen 2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

[larry2]

The Rapture.

there is no rapture of the church.

Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. What are the candlesticks in scripture? Revelation 1:20 . . . the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
 
Revelation 11:12  And they (The two witnesses = candlesticks = churches?) heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Notice the words colored blue: Come up hither, and caught up; how do they get to heaven and God's throne?

My thoughts

this is the resurrection

I suppose the thing to ask would be what you think the coined word "Rapture" means? In actuality there are only two resurrections; one of all in Christ, and one of the dead.

Does the first resurrection need be one event at the last trump? For instance, if there is a last trump, can there not be previous trumps as portions of the first resurrection are caught up unto God and His throne?

Let's consider the following scripture. Is Christ part of the first resurrection? What of those that rose from their graves in Matthew 27:52. Was the Apostle John shown different groups appearing in heaven at different times; the twenty-four elders. the great multitude, and the 144,000?

1 Corinthians 15:20   But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Matthew 27:52, "52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.  

the word rapture according to the webster dictionary means

Definition of RAPTURE
1: an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion

2a : a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion

b : a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rapture

Hi Howard, I am not a linguistics authority, and do not readily use modern vernacular to explain the meaning of all biblical coined words that explain perceived Christian doctrines, but the word "Rapture" as pertaining to the "Catching up" of the Church to be with the Lord has been formally used by most Christians I've had contact with. If you want to use the scripture "Caught up," as used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, or Revelation 12:5, I have no problem with that.
 
Strongs - AV-catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1; 13    

RAPTURE is an English word that means "snatched up" or "caught up." It comes from the same Latin root as "raptor," the kind of birds such as eagles who "snatch up" their prey. Although the word RAPTURE is not used in the King James Version Bible, or any commonmodern English translation, people derive their belief and hope in a rapture from only two Bible verses from the Apostle Paul:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (1Thessalonians 4:16-17, NKJV)

http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/definition-of-christian-terms/rapture.html

[howard]

i know this is a dark sentence to my brothers and sister in Jesus

in Jesus kingdom what is one of your roles job functions to say, will you just be flying around which is a common teaching.

lets read a few passages

Psalm122:
1 A Song of degrees of David. I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.

2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem. Why are our feet standing in the gates of Jerusalem when speaking of the house of the Lord? Because that's where the house of the Lord will be.

3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:

4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.

5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.

For there are set thrones (plural) of judgment.

watch this

Jesus is not the only one that's going to be doing the judging.

Rev.20:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

wait a minute you mean I will be a priest of Jesus in his kingdom sitting on a throne?

is this not a dark sentence to Christians?

[howard]

]Hi Howard, I am not a linguistics authority, and do not readily use modern vernacular to explain the meaning of all biblical coined words that explain perceived Christian doctrines, but the word "Rapture" as pertaining to the "Catching up" of the Church to be with the Lord has been formally used by most Christians I've had contact with. If you want to use the scripture "Caught up," as used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, or Revelation 12:5, I have no problem with that.
   
Strongs - AV-catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1; 13   

RAPTURE is an English word that means "snatched up" or "caught up." It comes from the same Latin root as "raptor," the kind of birds such as eagles who "snatch up" their prey. Although the word RAPTURE is not used in the King James Version Bible, or any commonmodern English translation, people derive their belief and hope in a rapture from only two Bible verses from the Apostle Paul:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (1Thessalonians 4:16-17, NKJV]http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/definition-of-christian-terms/rapture.html

Hello Larry

I fall in the same category as you as far linguistic, and I was taught that rapture means caught up until I read it for myself in a english dictionary. I speak english and not Greek or Latin, this is one reason why I cannot adhere to the rapture doctrine, Another reason is the verse you quoted goes along with other verses concerning the 1st resurrection.

the bible speaks of a 1st resurrection 1st meaning none before and more to come.

how can the rapture(caught up) (catching away) be before something that is 1st?

the 1st resurrection will raise the dead and living is what I read.

my understanding is that this so-called rapture is actually the 1st resurrection.       

[howard]

a very dark sentence

where is this guy or these guys at?

2 Corinthians 11:3-5 (King James Version)

3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

5For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

Matthew 24


4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

[howard]

remember Satan hit the earth when he was kicked out with great wrath to deceive.

Rev 12

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


what did he do to help his cause?

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

where is Satan ministers who transformed themselves into ministers of light?

this is a very very dark sentence

in the time we live in most don't understand Satan has a doctrine, a church and ministers among us teaching in Jesus name.

WOW

dark sentences for those who walk in the night as I once was.

John 11:8-10 (King James Version)

8His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?

9Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

10But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

[JMT]

in the time we live in most don't understand Satan has a doctrine, a church and ministers among us teaching in Jesus name.

Holy cow!  Who do you say can be trusted then to minister and teach God's people?  

[larry2]

Hi again Howard. I have no problem in how you perceive end time events; it should not affect the way we live for Christ. There are two resurrections containing all mankind; the first is Jesus and all that are in Christ, and the second are those dead that are not.

Of those in the first resurrection, are all caught up at the same time?

1 Corinthians 15:20  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Corinthians 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

When we enter Revelation 4:1 we see the instruction to the Apostle John: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." John in spirit observes different ones appear befor. God's throne from that point forward. Two groups are with Jesus when He receives His own throne in heaven in Revelation 4:2; I continue to ask many how they got there in not caught up.

There are those of the great multitude we read of in Revelation 7:14-15 which come out of great tribulation and appear before the throne of God. How do they get before God's throne in heaven without being caught up?

Last to be caught up unto God in heaven is the one hundred and forty-four thousand we see in Revelation 14:1. "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand. This mount Sion is the heavenly Jerusalem. Hebrews 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels. Then in Revelation 14:3, we see them before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders in heaven, and they were redeemed FROM the earth; how do they get there?

I hope that you see that the first resurrection is a sequence of events concerning the body of Christ as they are caught up unto God and His throne, but if not, I trust you live each day in Christ as if He were coming for you today.

[gospel]

Here is a dark sentence is the rapture the last day? according to Jesus he will raise(caught up) his people on the last day


John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

notice it says 5 times that the Lord will raise up his own on the last day

is the rapture the last day.

is the resurrection a dark sentence?
is the rapture a dark sentence?

raise and caught up do mean the same.

The antichrist will be skilled in deception because he will have understanding of spiritual mysteries. One who is aligned with powers of darkness yet having an understanding of the things of the spirit is as larry2 alluded to, akin to a leader who operates in the prophetic and will use his leadership to lead people astray from truth rather than to it

[howard]

in the time we live in most don't understand Satan has a doctrine, a church and ministers among us teaching in Jesus name.

Holy cow!  Who do you say can be trusted then to minister and teach God's people? 

Jesus had Jeremiah write

Jeremiah 3:15
And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding

Jesus told Solomon to write

Ecclesiastes 12:8-10

8Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

9And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.

10The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.