Sound Biblical Preaching

[Bill]

marc, Skip & truthseeker

I'm guilty of saying I believe or I think rather than quoting scripture.  I think part of this is due to the fact it at least has the appearance of proof-texting. Also as you begin to quote scripture the posts become quite long.  However, you have made a good point and I'll try harder in the futher to at least reference scripture.

It seems that most of the lessons I hear are proof texted rather than looking at a whole book or at least an entire thought.  Think that the epistles in the NT would have been much shorter if God had only wanted proof-texts.

Thanks all for your thoughts on "Sound Biblical Preaching".  It has been a help to me.

Bill

[Richard]

Hi Barry,
I am neither a preacher nor a scholar.  But i'm going to express my opinion here.

If I stand up in front of a group of people and say "Here is what I believe and why I believe it", and proceed to read some scripture verses to support my belief; that is one thing.

But if I stand in front of a group of people and say "This is the word of God", then I had better be powerfully certain that I am speaking the word of God.

Jesus could do that in a narrative fashion because he has the authority to do so.  I do not.

I don't think anyone was saying that narrative, or topical, sermons are inherently bad or wrong.  Speaking just for myself, I feel I have an obligation to measure what a preacher says against the Word of God.  When the scripture references in a sermon are scattered throughout the Bible, that makes it difficult for me.  I would rather, in most cases, that a preacher confine a sermon to one or two passages.  I have no problem with them expounding, expanding, using parables, or examples from everyday life that relate to the scripture passage being referenced.

I hope that makes sense.  I also hope I did not completely misunderstand the thrust of your post.  If I did, I apologize for my ignorance.

Richard

[Booty]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (patriciaredstone @ Mar. 09 2002,05:11)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I appreciate preachers who do not exploit the pulpit by boring me or insisting that I take notes on the prepared handouts for a banal, sterotypic sermon ... But other than some wonderful teaching i have heard while visiting lectureships, that is all I have experienced for twenty years.

Last year, our church was looking for a new minister. The search committee -- as committees usually do -- put out a request for information that might lead to a new preacher. I suggested that we not hire a pulpit minister at all. Using our very large budget I demonstrated how our church could afford to hire a new speaker/lecturer each week. We could have the best of the best. College professors, authors, key-note speakers from the big lectureships. We already have three professional ministers on staff to oversee, evangelism, family activites and youth and singles. Counseling is handled by a professional Christian marriage and family therapist. So why settle for mediocrity when we can afford the best sermons money can buy? Of course this idea did not go over very well because it was unusual and so, we are stuck with the "usual."

But this idea is not new! I think the time for the "mule-back" preacher has returned! The preacher shortage is largely due to a competition with Christian universities. Men go to these schools intending to become ministers and find themselves choosing the security and intellectual/spiritual life of the academic community over the ministry. If we could find a way to entice these guys to be "mule back" preachers once a month or so, they could have their cake and eat it too![/quote]
As a suggestion, have you ever thought about filling your pulpit from within your congregation? I certainly have no intent of offending nor defaming any one, but I would like to comment that we have fallen victim to a paradigm which appears to dictate that a pulpit must be filled by a "Trained Preacher" with credentials etcetera. While many trained preachers are stalwarts in their faith and the Word, where is our trust in the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us? Why cannot men of faith step forth from the congregation to fill an empty pulpit?  Is the pulpit such an onerous task that we must hire someone to fill it?  Or is the pulpit an opportunity to serve our Lord trusting in His grace to lead guide and direct us?

Is preaching a profession or is it a calling?

[Booty]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Barry @ Mar. 10 2002,11:15)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17)[/quote]
Barry,

Caution my brother, the passage is a little too simplistic for the depth of the problem. Certain counsels from our Lord Jesus Christ are in order.

First when we enter the pulpit, we give our life to Him.

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 21:15
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

John 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

There are 24 hours in the day.  Would that we could give Him all 24.

Second, while leadership is a serious responsiblility, it is not free license.  Certain issues of pastoral failings have been raised.  Paul's exhortation does not address these. From Jesus we learn that the failings of church leaders is nothing new nor is it anything that ended with His coming.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that
doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22  
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy
name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23  
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 23:14
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
 

As a caution our Lord advises us.

Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


In the pulpit we are indeed falible, our sins and the our potential to sin is indeed great. We have need to attend to the righteous criticisms from our flocks.

[patriciaredstone]

Seeker, Here is that website:

http://www.theseeker.org/radical/

[Booty]

What concievable Biblical basis could be found to exhort the youth of the congregation to sit up front? The mutual edification exhortation example given has to be one of the most interesting interpretations I have encountered. Was there more or was this it?

Working with youth the question is always, "What do you do when they read Joband meet Elihu?" Always better to accept that they are indeed a part of the church. From the moment of baptism forward they share the same responsibilities as other members and enjoy the same rights.

[patriciaredstone]

Mike,

How right you are that sinners -- regardless of the nature of the sin -- should be welcomed into fellowship. We are all sinners. However, I disagree that rapists, pedophiles and any person who is a registered offender should be allowed to participate in leadership. Leaders should be beyond reproach. For the remainder of these individuals lives their identity will be open to the public as dangerous to society. To put them in positions of leadership would be, in my opinion, a poor witness to the community.

Responsible church leaders will go to a few minutes of trouble to ask the police if suspicious individuals are registered offenders or are under investigation. In my experience the police are very helpful if they feel that children may be in danger. (They might say "you didn't get this information from me, but ...) And of course all responsible leaders do a registered offender check on all individuals who work with the precious children of the church. All three of our churches known offenders were very helpful with the children and teens.
And yes, one of them had been sexually abused in his childhood by his father who was an elder and was deceased at the time of his son's conviction. The children do inherit the sins of the fathers.

I do not believe that any sin is unforgivable. Grace truly covers all!!! But sin often has consequences that cannot be recovered.

[marc]

Some of these thoughts about Christian camp counsellors have made me think.  I made the decision nine years ago to no longer volunteer as a camp counsellor until more than one adult was placed in a cabin at a time.  The reasons given here never occurred to me. I guess they should have--I'm past thirty and single, which apparently could make me "suspect" in some people's minds, though honestly I've never encountered this.  But my mind never even went in that direction.

No, my decision was made after being in charge of a group of a dozen or so kids ranging in age from 8 to 14 for a week, and bearing the responsibility of everything from making sure the kids took their medication ("if he misses once, he'll have a seizure") to making sure they didn't kill each other.  No one else at the camp stopped by to check on the kids (I was provided with two junior counsellors, but they were kept busy with outside duties from wake-up to well past curfew),and--this concerned me most--no one at the camp had medical training.

I didn't just feel inadequate for the job I clearly WAS inadequate.

I'm afraid, though, that this reveals much of what goes on in our activities, particularly in some of the areas where churches aren't as large or well-staffed.  We begin with good intentions, yet we don't forsee consequences.   As far as I know, there have been no instances of abuse in the thirty-year history of this camp. But could it happen?  Of course.  Are any precautions taken to prevent it from happening?  No.  

This is scary when you stop and think about it.

[Booty]

Narrow would be the line between vigilant oversight and obsessive persecution. I pray for wisdom in those congregations faced with this dilemna, thank the Lord we are not. But then as I said child molesters here do not have a long life span, so we have a problem of our own in horrible prisons with quite cruel vigilante squads operating within the prisons themselves.

There are never easy answers for the complex problems of man, the lion roars and delights in spreading his hate and discontent.  Thank the Lord that we have something much better to look forward to.  

Dios te bendiga
Booty

[nerdneh]

Your narrative reminds me of Thomas More in "A Man for All Seasons," which is, as you know, based on a true story. Something like this is bitter medicine for our naivete. If one-tenth of the energy that is devoted to tearing down could be channeled into doing good, how powerful would be the effect!

[Nicholas]

Jane,

With these words you clearly voiced the frustration within me.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I find most people in the Bible studies I have taken part in do not have a sufficient knowledge of the scriptures to reason for themselves. Some people know what the scriptures say when they read them, but they do not know what the scriptures are saying to them in the context of what they were saying to the hearers at the time they were written.  In other words, I believe the scripture cannot mean anything different to us today than it meant to the audience to whom it was written. What do you think? [/quote]

Presently this is one of the major "thorns" in my side at my present congregation.  Most of the messages seem to be topical and very little book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse exposition. How does one define sound biblical preaching?

Nicholas...saved by grace

[Bill]

jmfair60 - I heard Abe Lincoln speak once in Montana.  The preacher who got him to come to MT was also a graduate of Sunset School of Preaching.

Bill

[Barry]

Hi Richard,
No disagreement here - I understand what you are saying and believe you are correct. My only concern was that we are describing expository preaching as "biblical preaching", yet we don't find that type of preaching in the Bible. From a preacher's standpoint, topical preaching can be very difficult, because we want to make sure that we use all the various scriptures, from throughout the Bible, within their proper context. Of course, the ones that do not do this are taking the lazy way out, but for most of us, when we preach topically it is really quite a chore. I find it much easier to preach expository messages, but I think I can make more relevant application using topical messages (most of the time).

In Christ,
Barry

[patriciaredstone]

I appreciate preachers who do not exploit the pulpit by boring me or insisting that I take notes on the prepared handouts for a banal, sterotypic sermon ... But other than some wonderful teaching i have heard while visiting lectureships, that is all I have experienced for twenty years.

Last year, our church was looking for a new minister. The search committee -- as committees usually do -- put out a request for information that might lead to a new preacher. I suggested that we not hire a pulpit minister at all. Using our very large budget I demonstrated how our church could afford to hire a new speaker/lecturer each week. We could have the best of the best. College professors, authors, key-note speakers from the big lectureships. We already have three professional ministers on staff to oversee, evangelism, family activites and youth and singles. Counseling is handled by a professional Christian marriage and family therapist. So why settle for mediocrity when we can afford the best sermons money can buy? Of course this idea did not go over very well because it was unusual and so, we are stuck with the "usual."

But this idea is not new! I think the time for the "mule-back" preacher has returned! The preacher shortage is largely due to a competition with Christian universities. Men go to these schools intending to become ministers and find themselves choosing the security and intellectual/spiritual life of the academic community over the ministry. If we could find a way to entice these guys to be "mule back" preachers once a month or so, they could have their cake and eat it too!

[seekr]

Bill

I read your servant's heart and see your love. I will say again, I believe that so many pastors started off with a heart for God and it is the "system" that exists today that is the culprit. So many have lost sight of Jesus being head of the church and us just being brothers and sisters in the Lord. I know that because i have the same nature as the rest of us that is in war with the Spirit, that I could easily fall prey to phariseeism by being looked up to by so many. I would not want that responsibility, but I also believe that, again, the set up in the churches today is not how it was meant to be. And my intention was not to lump all preachers or pastors together and did not say that--but I know God put me in that place to see what was happening so I would follow HIM and that phariseeism does run rampant. How many have given up on "church"? How many do live in bitterness from the lack of love that pushed them out? It isn't just happening today but has always been the problem throughout history, and many of the past saints have recognized what I do and spoken out against religiosity. I still am working out my own approach to others with what He has shown me and know where to keep my sight--on Him. There was a reason Paul had a thorn in the flesh--to keep pride from undermining him. That is the part of our nature that the enemy works on most--it's what threw Lucifer out of heaven. In 1Tim.3:6 it says...or he may become conceited and fall under the same JUDGMENT as the devil. See the trap of pride that can destroy any of us? Can we fall? I hate it when I recognize it in myself and am still working out my salvation with fear and trembling. May grace abound.

seekr

[patriciaredstone]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (seekr @ Mar. 11 2002,1:43)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Yes Patricia, it is well said. But I think my point is escaping some of you. We are ALL the congregation, with Jesus as the head. We ALL have a responsibility to one another with love as the law. There is no heiarchy other then our Lord. I do not meet in any of the organizations as that is how I view them--organizations. But I also know my brothers and sisters are in them. Am I able to serve without being in a building with the label "church"? Do others minister to me and I to them without meeting on Sunday? Did Paul consider himself set apart from the congregation or set apart from the world? His leadership was just serving and our perception of leadership is to set us above the crowd with the answers when we are ALL taught by the Lord and can share with one another what God has revealed to each of us. And yes, there are different ministries and gifts we are called to with Jesus as the head. Paul said he considerd the apostles as last in the procession because that is how he was treated. Kind of like sweeping up the mess left behind from our erring ways. Do I know all? Do I need to learn from you? I know I need you as much as you need me. We know we are disciples by the love we have for one another, not our preaching style or our knowledge or even our faith is considered anything if we don't have love.

seekr[/quote]
Seeker,

You are talking restoration here! Some call it Radical Restoration after the new book by F. LaGard Smith. Many members of the Church of Christ are giving up on the conventional mainstream church and starting the restoration movement afresh (radical restoration is really just a nice way to say iconoclast.) Still, I think it is a wonderful new evolution for the church of Christ. I wish the instigator was someone else, though. I have to wonder if Smith, (who holds strongly to traditional gender roles in the church and in the home) is not organizing a mass exit just as women are migrating from "outside the camp" to the center of church activites. There is website in the making, I think. You might key in Radical Restoraion and see what comes up.

[Arkstfan]

Patricia, I've never felt that the age compartments were an attempt to regulate but then I've been in some really good congregations.

I think it is just a good intentioned attempt to meet the needs of different groups within the body without understanding that the calendar has little to do with where we fit in.

[mike]

Patricia,

I have also had some experiences in church conflict on how to deal with those convicted of some abusive crime, including pedophilia. As you well know, pedophiles, or other abusers for that matter, were likely abused themselves and continue the pattern. They are highly susceptible to this type of sin, and Satan will attack them with temptations in this area to destroy them. If he can use this to destroy a church as well, so much the better, from a demonic viewpoint.

So, We need to be cautious with these people, for their sake and the sake of the church. Although I cannot comprehend the desire to abuse an innocent child, and the idea revolts me, I know that my own particular sins revolt God just as much. I cannot feel superior to a pedophile, because I am also a sinner. It's just that my areas of temptation are different. We certainly should be forgiving and willing to welcome any believer into fellowship who worships our Lord, while encouraging them to persist in the process of sanctification and holiness.

IMO, this encouragement includes helping them to avoid situations where they are likely to be tempted in an area of personal weakness. So, obviously, you wouldn't let a pedophile work in the nursery or youth group. This would not prevent them from being openly penitent and ministering in another area. Also, IMO, someone who abused such a trust in the recent past has no business in a leadership position in the church. Trust must be earned; it cannot be commanded. This does not mean such a person could never be a church leader, but just that sufficient time would need to pass for their life to demonstrate sufficient fruit to convince others of their trustworthiness. I would think that usually this would be quite a long time.

Finally, I believe the book you referred to earlier was Love Your God With All Your Mind, by J.P. Moreland. This is an excellent book, and challenges to use our mind as we deal with issues of faith.

Mike
:D

[patriciaredstone]

Bob<< Is there just more of this stuff than ever, or is it simply being identified and labeled? >>

Bob,

I think it is a bit of both. Pedophilia increases with the population. Explicit television sex scenes make children who act out things they do not understand into easy prey for the pedophile. In close communities residents tend to share more information which keeps pedophiles under more controled conditions (they still abuse but their abuse is limited to close relatives or very vulnerable neighbors) but today pedophiles are being encouraged in our large communites by absentee parenting styles which are dependent on low-wage or free assistance. Also, in the not-too-distant past, people thought of pedophilia as mere eccentricism. When I lived in Italy, it was a routine part of our morning to dodge an exhibitionist priest as we boarded the school bus in the piazza of our little rural mountain villiage! On the way home from school in the afternoon pedophiles were parked in their cars calling out to the children to come over and have a piece of chocolate. Once in a while an old woman would storm out of her house and hit them with a dishtowel and them to go home.

My neice by adoption was used by her parents, grandparents, friends, neighbors as a sex toy. Today, by a miracle of God she is recovered. Sadly, her brother and sister will be institutionalised with schizophrenia for the remainder of their lives.

Child molestation is a very scary problem. I see no short term solutions. But if churches will be cautious, aware and open to taking some precautions we can at least prevent ourselves from becoming havens for this extremely harmful addiction.

[patriciaredstone]

<< No we should not put child molesters in charge of the nursery, no more than we would put an recovering alcoholic in charge of the communion wine. >>

Right you are that deliberate and vigilant oversight is our Christian duty to the child molestor in the fellowship of the church.

<< But our prayers for both are warranted, no mandated by our Lord. >>

Amen! And who would suggest otherwise?

[patriciaredstone]

Bob,

Interesting you see the Thomas Moore connection. I saw a new production of Man for All Seasons a few weeks ago. Yes, it was very similar. The best friends and closest confindants of this minister were also the churches largest donors ... and his betrayers. They were (are) extremely wealthy, perhaps the wealthiest people in our town. This is not the first time I have seen a connection between wealth and the downfall of a spiritual community.

[hawkeye]

From what I know of Jane she is very mature, a deep thinker, and yet open minded.  Her comment to the effect that the words back then meant the same  as they do now.  However, modern day peoples' problems may be a bit more complex than in Biblical times, and the average layman of today is much more sophisticated than back then.  

People do tend to merely repeat what they have learned without stopping to think what it really means, but one has to
start somewhere.  As time passes I continue to gain a larger and better understanding of Christianity.

[truthseeker]

How strange that I found this conversation today!!  Last night I attended a friend's mid-week church service.  I have attended with her many times (the church I worship with doesn't have a Wed night service) and have begun to make some friends there.  In talking with one of them, I mentioned that no one seems to be interested in truth anymore.  People of all backgrounds and denominations that I've heard talking about "choosing" a church have all kinds of criteria that have nothing to do with truth or Biblical preaching.  A new coworker was asking me what I knew of churches in the area,  and told me the important thing was that they have a "children's service" during the sermon.

Discussion about various church "programs" aside, I was talking with my friend at that service about this, and how appalled I was by it.  Because what I want to hear most is the voice of God--in sermon, Bible reading, etc.  The preacher at my congregation preaches straight through  books of the Bible.  This was my first experience with preaching of this type and I love it.  Last year we went through Galatians and Ephesians.  This year we have finished Philippians and Colossians.  How refreshing to be able to follow through the thought of the original writer!

"My problem is that now I'm always wondering or questioning whether the prooftext being used is in context.  So instead of being fed by the teaching, I'm trying to read surrounding verses (quickly)   to get a full understanding."

This comment by Nicholas rings right on with me.  I get behind in topical sermons, because I'm trying to find the context of the previous scripture.  I think that it is important that we know what scripture says about various topics, but a topical sermon with tons of scriptures gets me so lost.  I enjoyed one sermon I heard on prayer where the minister used only two main texts and their contexts.  He then encouraged us to all study the topic for ourselves and gave 6 or 7 additional passages to look up.  I enjoyed that, but I was sad that so few people within the congregation even wrote the scriptures down to look up later.

Growing up in the Church of Christ we would call ourselves the "people of the book", and there was strong emphasis from youth on to study and know the Bible.  Yet in more recent years this seems to have declined.  An older woman in my previous congregation (CofC) stated in response to my question about daily reading of scripture, "I don't read much for myself--it is too hard to understand"  More often I hear how busy-ness takes over our lives and scripture study and prayer seem to "fall by the way side" :(

It is rare in my experience to find those who truly study and seek the truth to be found in scripture.  (And when I do find someone like that we tend to be magnetically drawn to each other--even if I'm just out travelling and visiting other places!) I agree with Marc and Skip and I, too, hope I am not just pessimistic  Even some of those most zealous about certain topics don't always have the understanding of the scriptures, reminding me of Paul's comment about his fellow Jews, "For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge." (Romans 10:2)

Skip's quotes from Psalm 119 sum it up very well--we need to meditate upon the word and let that light guide our paths!!!  Although my personal preferences lean away from topical sermons, I don't mind them, as long as they remain based in truth ;)

[hawkeye]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Nicholas @ Feb. 10 2002,4:51)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Jane,

With these words you clearly voiced the frustration within me.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I find most people in the Bible studies I have taken part in do not have a sufficient knowledge of the scriptures to reason for themselves. Some people know what the scriptures say when they read them, but they do not know what the scriptures are saying to them in the context of what they were saying to the hearers at the time they were written.  In other words, I believe the scripture cannot mean anything different to us today than it meant to the audience to whom it was written. What do you think? [/quote]

Presently this is one of the major "thorns" in my side at my present congregation.  Most of the messages seem to be topical and very little book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse exposition. How does one define sound biblical preaching?

Nicholas...saved by grace[/quote]
If you are speaking about bible study or Sunday school classes then I agree with you.  However, you might consider this.  Different people have different reasons for reading the Bible, and therefore tend to extract different meanings from what they have read.  In other words, they tend to see what they want to see and ignore the parts they aren't interested in.  It all comes down to why one reads the Bible and what one expects from his practice of religion.

You probably would be dismayed at a typical Methodist sermon, because in general a Methodist minister will try to illustrate how to apply scriptural principles to our every day human needs rather than expounding on the beauty and the virtues of scripture.  It's a rather practical approach to religion in that it is used to serve our needs rather than just being something to marvel at.  

It's nice to read the Bible and to sit in awe at the power of the Lord, and some people are really into that part of believing.  I personally am not interested in being an expert on the meaning of the scriptures, and perfer to simply use Christian principles to guide me in my everyday behavior and affairs.  I got the salvation business out of the way long ago (I'm 63) so I have moved on to using the Lord's teachings to live my life.  If I may, religion is a prescription for living as well as a means of salvation, so I take a much more pragmatic view of religion than the idealist.  Some prefer to talk it, where I prefer to use it.  Hopes this sheds some light on your concerns.

[nerdneh]

I am challenged by Nicholas' "saved by grace" logo. As Helmut Thielicke said, the Christian should carry an "R" in front of his or her name to indicate they will be resurrected by the living Savior.
On the need to get into expository preaching once again, and it will be difficult to jettison our topical sermons, since they are such fun, and how we love the anagrams and the fourteen points, etc. (Actually if a preacher tells me he has 10 points in the sermon I always time the first point and multiply by ten!) That can be scary!
Textual preaching simply leaves God in charge of the sermon. There must be some reason the Holy Spirit has preserved the canon of Scripture for us (ala 2 Tim 3:16)!  So, why not trust the Spirit to use His wonderful instrument? The best preaching I have ever heard was always a challenge coming from the text, in which I was confronted with the text, and thus confronted with the Word of God.
Granted, this takes a good deal more work, familiarity with the original text, and an eldership that supports real "sound preaching."  I suppose everyone with any Bible knowledge knows that the word "sound" found in 1,2 Tim and Titus really does not mean "conforming to the brotherhood norm," but means healthy or health-giving (Gr hygies).
I'm all for more health-giving sermons!

[nerdneh]

Barry, your insights are helpful and come from your convictions on the topic (no pun intended). Of course, I can only speak from my own point of view. If someone were to do topical preaching, as you suggest it should be done, I would have no problem with it. In fact, it would converge with my idea of good exposition. I don't know why you are so resistant to the idea of using the term "biblical preaching," unless you mean to affirm that expository preaching is not biblical. Granted, it should not be considered the only valid mode for conveying the Word, but it is certainly a valid one and is more apt to perserve the intent of the Holy Spirit, in my view, than embracing a topic which will always be somewhat of a generalization one step away from a particular passage.
If you have studied General Semantics, you may remember the Abstraction Ladder concept that starts at the top with a term like "assests" and goes on down the abstraction ladder to the final term "Bessie the Cow." It seems to me that topical preaching is a least one more rung up on the ladder of abstraction than working through a text. I know that textual preaching demands contextualization as well as conceptualization, as does all good topical preaching. I suppose I feel more comfortable dealing directly with what the Holy Spirit has preserved for us than I do trying to impose some grid of reference upon it.

[pdwblw]

Hello to you all,
This is certainly quite a heated discussion.  Normally I appreciate the way issues are discussed and the Christ-like behavior.  What happened?  It seems that all pastors have been lumped together.  It is too bad this discussion is going this way.  Let us pray for our pastors.

[patriciaredstone]

Bill, I appreciate you and your work. Still, you must realise that many individuals who do not call themselves "preachers" or "pastors" also labor as you do 60-80 hours a week for the Lord. Consider those in para-church organisations, those who write, lecture, and serve the poor and afflicted. Not all who serve the Lord 60-80 hours a week have the title "preacher." My sister who works for no wage to insure the welfare for children without parents who live in foster care or orphanages is only one example. What happens when a child with AIDS dies? Who takes charge of the funeral? Who arranges flowers to be donated? Who stays overnight with the brothers and sisters to comfort them? A lady named Deborah in Mississippi. Again, I'm sure my experience is not the same as everyone else, but I have seen many preachers who simply are not up to the job requirements, the primary requirement being humility. In my life I have seen five Church of Christ preachers sleep with women who are not their wives. I have seen one who refused to use the word "love" in his sermons because he was "tired of all this love, love, love stuff being preached" and three others who refused to deny a convicted and registered child molester access to leadership in the church. These examples are not intended to put forth the message that all preachers are unfit. But to deny that the Church of Christ does have unfit ministers in the pulpit is denial of the truth. I'm tired of denial.

[nerdneh]

This is certainly one of the most emotional discussions I have read in a while, and I believe it indicates the intensity of our feelings about what goes on in that area of our meeting together we style as "the pulpit." I must confess I have been preaching for about 40 years. G. C. Brewer, himself a preacher for the CofC, wrote a book near the end of his life called; "40 Years on the Firing Line." I read this as I was fresh out of the USMC and trying to find a way to devote my life to the Lord. The book scared me, and then I thought; "Surely Christians will be decent and supportive persons. I must learn to trust my spiritual family more." And, by and large that has been true. Most folks have been supportive and kind, although I have unwittingly at times let them down, frustrated them, and blessedly, been able to help them.
In January, for the first time in a 42 year ministry I was asked to resign, largely because I could not accept the narrowing vision of our leadership and I could not alter the message of the Gospel to dovetail with a cheerleader mentality. I do not say this to gain any applause, and you can tell I trust myself to the kindness of other believers or I would hide my true experiences from you. I have discovered that if God had not permitted people into the church then we would have had perfect churches. As it is, pastors, people and preachers are all very fallible persons.
I believe the preacher/pastor has to accept Paul's rationale in 2 Cor. 4: "We have renounced disgraceful underhanded manipulation...."  And, While we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord...."
I could recite many instances of such manipulation, but I could also recite many many more instances of persons giving their sincere and wonderful best in trying to share the good news. We must find a way to accept the human composition of the church. As an analogy, when I want to hear top notch music performed at a high professional level I go to hear the Chicago Symphony or some such orchestra. When I go to the assembly I expect to hear not the Chicago Symphony Chorus singing Bruckner, but my spiritual family, some singing off key (including me), some singing very well, but perhaps most raising an anthem of praise to God, who no doubt hears it as a finer piece of work than the Chicago Symphonic Choir has ever sung. Grace transforms all.

[seekr]

Yes Patricia, it is well said. But I think my point is escaping some of you. We are ALL the congregation, with Jesus as the head. We ALL have a responsibility to one another with love as the law. There is no heiarchy other then our Lord. I do not meet in any of the organizations as that is how I view them--organizations. But I also know my brothers and sisters are in them. Am I able to serve without being in a building with the label "church"? Do others minister to me and I to them without meeting on Sunday? Did Paul consider himself set apart from the congregation or set apart from the world? His leadership was just serving and our perception of leadership is to set us above the crowd with the answers when we are ALL taught by the Lord and can share with one another what God has revealed to each of us. And yes, there are different ministries and gifts we are called to with Jesus as the head. Paul said he considerd the apostles as last in the procession because that is how he was treated. Kind of like sweeping up the mess left behind from our erring ways. Do I know all? Do I need to learn from you? I know I need you as much as you need me. We know we are disciples by the love we have for one another, not our preaching style or our knowledge or even our faith is considered anything if we don't have love.

seekr

[Nicholas]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]This is certainly one of the most emotional discussions I have read in a while, and I believe it indicates the intensity of our feelings about what goes on in that area of our meeting together we style as "the pulpit." I must confess I have been preaching for about 40 years. G. C. Brewer, himself a preacher for the CofC, wrote a book near the end of his life called; "40 Years on the Firing Line." I read this as I was fresh out of the USMC and trying to find a way to devote my life to the Lord. The book scared me, and then I thought; "Surely Christians will be decent and supportive persons. I must learn to trust my spiritual family more." And, by and large that has been true. Most folks have been supportive and kind, although I have unwittingly at times let them down, frustrated them, and blessedly, been able to help them.
In January, for the first time in a 42 year ministry I was asked to resign, largely because I could not accept the narrowing vision of our leadership and I could not alter the message of the Gospel to dovetail with a cheerleader mentality. I do not say this to gain any applause, and you can tell I trust myself to the kindness of other believers or I would hide my true experiences from you. I have discovered that if God had not permitted people into the church then we would have had perfect churches. As it is, pastors, people and preachers are all very fallible persons.
I believe the preacher/pastor has to accept Paul's rationale in 2 Cor. 4: "We have renounced disgraceful underhanded manipulation...."  And, While we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord...."
I could recite many instances of such manipulation, but I could also recite many many more instances of persons giving their sincere and wonderful best in trying to share the good news. We must find a way to accept the human composition of the church. As an analogy, when I want to hear top notch music performed at a high professional level I go to hear the Chicago Symphony or some such orchestra. When I go to the assembly I expect to hear not the Chicago Symphony Chorus singing Bruckner, but my spiritual family, some singing off key (including me), some singing very well, but perhaps most raising an anthem of praise to God, who no doubt hears it as a finer piece of work than the Chicago Symphonic Choir has ever sung. Grace transforms all.[/quote]
Bob,
I need some help here. Explain what you meant with this :D

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I could not alter the message of the Gospel to dovetail with a cheerleader mentality. [/quote]

Nicholas....saved by grace

[nerdneh]

I agree that all this compartmentalization was started with good intentions and to make sure no one was neglected, but if you have too much analysis with no synthesis you have paralysis. Obviously we do not all fit in certain neat compartments, and for the Evangelism Minister to think he or she is the only one with a proper slant on doing evangelism properly is preposterous. I was at a banquet once and they recognized people there by the number of conversions they claimed during the year, in numerical order. Then at the end, those who had fewer  than 10 conversions were told to work hard and next year they could be called to the stage and recognized! What happened to Paul's insight, that "I planted, Apollos watered, and God gave the increase."?
John 10 and John 13 still remain my favorite models of leadership, not the commercial or the military models.

[patriciaredstone]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (nerdneh @ Mar. 13 2002,3:57)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]How is it we try to  make so many things happen during a congregational worship period? We try and cram an incredible number of experiences into that one short period, when perhaps it would be a good time "to be still and know I am God." If you have to make it happen, you will cheat sooner or later, but if God is seen as the One who makes it happen, you can relax and leave the results with Him. I see congregational worship experience as a supplement to the main activity I  have as a Christian, that is worshipping and admiring God on a daily basis. When the only worship you experience takes place on a Sunday morning, no wonder you have to stuff so much into it.
It's kind of like traveling to California from Alabama. I don't have to order you to stop at gas stations, for if you want to get there you will. We shouldn't have to be ordered to attend worship but that has become a major concern of many ministers. Perhaps it's the old bottom line theology again. But stopping at gas stations is not the main reason for your trip, getting to California is! God knew we would need some time with our Christian family and in corporately recognizing our need for Him in order to make the journey to heaven, but the congregational worship period is not the be-all and end-all of the Christian journey. It is to help in that journey, not be that journey.[/quote]
Thank you Bob!

Do mind if I sign my name to that and nail it on my church door?

[Booty]

While my given name is Bill, my cherished nickname is Booty, (Actually it is spelled Brojees, but that is an awfully long story!), anyway to avoid confusion, please call me Booty.

We congregate for mutual edification and support, to shate the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Mustangs have a duty as well to the group. Yes, Mustangs have matured more spiritually and that is exactly what they must share with the group.

Seekr, disfellowship, (Or excommunication as it is called here), is a unilateral manipulative tool. Noone can actually disfellowship you if you choose to maintain fellowship with them.  Of course you wind up turning the other cheek many times, but what greater joy can there be but in expressing love for one's enemies? Further the concept that an entire group can disfellowship you os quite inconceivable. Other mustangs always exist in any group and whether they have declared or not, they need your fellowship.

We are charged with the stewardship of His church here on earth. It remains our duty to stand up for His justice. Remember, He could have walked away when the pharisees first started disfellowshipping Him. Instead He stayed to fulfill the righteousness of His mission here on earth. Praise His Holy name for having done so,

Patricia,
All to often we seek out similar wounded frustrated souls to share our pain. I know it hurts, how do I know it hurts. Like you I can share tales of horror of the injustices done in His name, remember Inquisition is a latin concept! Down here they call the Legalists, "Nuestros amados hermanos talibanes" (Our beloved taliban brothers)  But frankly I suspect all are numb by this time to the horror tales, one more will do no good.

Instead of horror tales, let's start with PRAYER. As each reads this post, let their head be bowed and let them go to our Lord Jesus Christ beseeching His divine intervention in our lives to bring us peace, His peace which is a result of justice. Let them ask Him to touch the hearts of the legalists and open their minds and souls to the grace of His perfect love.

Then let us go again to our brothers and continue witnessing them of His love. Let us forgive them 70x7 times. When they turn their backs, their ears are still open. They can still hear the words, "I love you".  When not only the kiss of fellowship, but even a simple handshake is withheld, what greater opportunity to say those powerful words, "I Love You"

[patriciaredstone]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (nerdneh @ Mar. 15 2002,9:10)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]patricia, I appreciate your latest post. This is a tough topic in some ways, and I was thinking of the individual more than the church. Of course, denial and failing to face up to horror is inexcusable. I am trying to get past some damaging events that have happened to me (and I know many others as well). I do not want to be a pollyanna and live in denial; as "It never really happened, or it was probably my fault." No! These events serious angered me, but I want to use that anger as fuel to escape the bog of victimhood, rather than allowing the anger to rob me of my joy in Christ.
Of course, I do not forget these experiences to the point of falling right back into the same old trap. I would never go to some abuser and ask him to abuse me all over again. I don't need to be a professional victim. I also cannot afford to be naive about abusive churches. We must, as Paul did, call a Corinth a Corinth, and the Galatians must still be confronted on their legalism. Years ago I did a retreat and it was on the Book of Colossians. After two or three lessons, the preacher approached me and said; "We are disappointed. We thought you would spend some time telling us how awful the legalistic churches of Christ are." I tried to point out that the experience under legalism is horrendous, as I believe legalism is a criminal doctine, and I felt we could discuss our pain, if that was what was needed, but at some point we needed to get on with our lives. There is a tension here, and it is significant. Can we get on with our lives, reclaim our joy and still be vigilant and aware of the spiritual abusers? I am searching for some balance here. Do you have any insights that will be helpful?[/quote]
Bob,

I think you were right at your retreat lecture to press on beyond legalism bashing. At some point someone has to say "let's get on with it." History has shown that the surest way to resurrect a new generation of legalism is to perpetually preach to the choir about the evils of legalism.

From the sound of it, it looks like you are in a familiar place... I know it ... Don't tell me! ... There's a rock on one side and a hard place on the other. Yes! the tension is significant. Do you succumb to platitudes about the opportunities of crisis and move ahead, come what may? Do you victimise yourself by making a point of not budging and holding to ground you no longer control...?

I think the solution is in using your wits, and I am not beyond flexing mine when the moment orders. What you have to offer and who you are has value. Jesus wrangled the Pharisees with his wits and bought himself some time. I think God especially loves the soul who is in a tight spot. If we hold onto our conscience, we have won the day if not the ground. We have survived, and there is joy in that.

Both I and my husband have been in tight spots -- seperate ones -- in the last two years. Mine was church related, his was not. I am amazed at what God did with these crisies! All we had to do was hold onto what we knew was right and without handling any of the details -- oh, we tried, but all for naught -- everything came out better than we could have planned! Of course this does not always happen, as in the horror story I related in the earlier post. All I can do is pray for those children who were abused. Pray that they do not grow up to be abusers too. But by holding onto the truth of my conscience, I have not become blind and there is joy in knowing that I was not pressured into becoming like some of the others who joined the leaders in forgiving and embracing the child molester -- allowing him back into the leadership -- and then bearing the burden of guilt and the shame of having my Christian faith exploited to protect the worse kind of criminal. I was called a "traitor of the faith" for standing up to the leadership. Well, behold the head of a traitor! I am at peace. Also, my husband and I were in the process of having charges of slander filed against us by the molester, but he could not restrain himself. He was convicted on new charges before he could file suit.

Stay true to your conscience ... true to your soul ... and God will see you through. The truth will out, and all of that corny stuff. If you are right, stay right. It is a recipe that works for everyone. If you are a diplomatic gentleman like yourself or an obnoxious "I told you soer" like me, right is right.