Another Comforter?

[p.rehbein]

The only time He changed His form was when He became a man, but He never stopped being a Spirit.

Three makes body spirit spirit.  The third man is a liar. The reality is Body Spirit. The body is temporal, the Spirit is eternal.

Yes the third is also spirit. Both godspellfeller and liyliyth stoned will tell you that he is their scapegoat. They need to believe there is a third voice so that they are "covered" when they corrupt the scripture with their wonton desires of the flesh. Also, Christ is no more flesh but Soul (which was poured out unto death) Spirit only, (2 Corinthians 5:16). All of the Passover Lamb was to be consumed by the partakers in the same night: NONE of it was to be left even to the next morning, (which is the same day in Hebrew reckoning).

Ok, now I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth here, but I want to understand what is being said:
1)  you (who do not believe in the Holy Trinity) appear to be saying that your interpretation of Scripture is the only correct one.
2)  you appear to be saying that if I do believe in the Holy Trinity, that my belief is a lie and the Holy Spirit (the third voice) is a liar.
3)  By saying this, you appear to be saying that if I do not believe exactly as you do, that I am a liar, false Prophet/Teacher (whateve) and, as such, I am not saved.  I am not a true Christian.  I am not a child of God.  For a liar, a false Teacher cannot be a child of God
4) In John, Chapter 14, Jesus said "Thine word is truth"...............He did not say "Thine word as interpreted by p.rehbein is Truth" nor did He say "Thine word as interpreted by BorntoReign, DAQ, (whoever) is Truth."
5)  I stated earlier that I do not demand that everyone believe as I do.  I respect the right of others to believe as they wish.  If they interpret Scripture in a certain way and believe that way, GOOD FOR THEM!  However, if I interpret the same Scripture in a different way, it means something different to me, then GOOD FOR ME!  Just as you have the God given right to believe as you do, I have the God given right to believe as I do.  Let us not delve into calling others liars or false teachers or whatever.

[daq]

PROOF that the KJV is biased towards a "three person" idea of YHWH and thus the entire KJV translation of the NT is biased in this "direction" since the early 1600's.

Which text is correct? Both the KJV and YGB follow the "Textus Receptus" which is a single text from what I understand. However, the ASV, RSV, and many other more modern translations follow the "GNT Morph" which is a compilation of multiple texts; thus, making the GNT a more reliable source because the multiple sources agree, (which is why it is called the "Morph" Text). In the King James v.6 includes v.7 (in red) of the Morph Texts and v.7 of the KJV (in bold) does not exist anywhere else. The inferior Textus Receptus ADDED VERSE SEVEN:

1 John 5:6-8 KJV
6. This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 John 6-8 ASV (American Standard)
6. This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
7. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
8. For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

1 John 5:6-8 RSV (Revised Standard)
6. This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood.
7. And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
8. There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.

1 John 5:6-8 TUA (GNT Morph Greek Transliteration)
6. Houtos estin ho elthon di hudatos kai haimatos,Iesous Christos, ouk en to hudati monon all en tohudati kai en to haimati, kai to Pneuma estin tomarturoun, hoti to Pneuma estin he aletheia.
6. This is he who came by water and blood, Yeshua Christos, not in the water only but in the water and the blood, and the Spirit is the witness, for the Spirit is the truth.
7. Hotitreis eisin hoi marturountes, {*}
7. For three they are which testify:
8. {*} to Pneuma kai tohudor kai to haima, kai hoi treis eis to hen eisin.
8. The Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and they three into the one they are.

1 John 5:6-8
6. This is he who came by water and blood, Yeshua Christos, not in the water only but in the water and the blood, and the Spirit is the witness, for the Spirit is the truth.
7. For three they are which testify:
8. The Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and they three into the one they are.

Spirit  =  Spirit of the Father first - Now also of the Son
Water  =  Word of the Father and of the Son
Blood  =  Soul of the Son poured out unto death - Christ

[p.rehbein]

thank you for that interesting material.  yet, you did not address the concerns I expressed in my post.

[daq]

thank you for that interesting material.  yet, you did not address the concerns I expressed in my post.

Why do I need to do that? I did not call you a liar, nor did I say there is "no Holy Spirit" or anything else like that. I am not the one deleting threads and posts full of Scripture. If there was an explanation it has now been deleted. Perhaps if that were not the case I might be able to send you to where your concerns were already addressed. Unfortunately I am not pasting everything I bring here like some others do and I do not have time to write it all out again. I know what I have been given, but if the powers that be feel that others do not deserve to hear what I have to offer then what is that to me? And why is it suddenly so important now? We both know Who we ultimately answer to.

[p.rehbein]

The only time He changed His form was when He became a man, but He never stopped being a Spirit.

Three makes body spirit spirit.  The third man is a liar. The reality is Body Spirit. The body is temporal, the Spirit is eternal.

Yes the third is also spirit. Both godspellfeller and liyliyth stoned will tell you that he is their scapegoat. They need to believe there is a third voice so that they are "covered" when they corrupt the scripture with their wonton desires of the flesh. Also, Christ is no more flesh but Soul (which was poured out unto death) Spirit only, (2 Corinthians 5:16). All of the Passover Lamb was to be consumed by the partakers in the same night: NONE of it was to be left even to the next morning, (which is the same day in Hebrew reckoning).

Great!  Good for you.  Would you please explain this comment of yours?  Are you denying the Holy Trinity exists?

[daq]

You do understand that the Theou is YHWH correct?

Matthew 3:16
16. And being baptized, the Yeshua went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of the Theou descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

2 John 1:6-11 KJV
6. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9.  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11. For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

[p.rehbein]

Ok, not gonna get a direct answer.  So let me say this.  I believe in the Holy Trinity, that being God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.  I do not demand or expect that anyone else believe as I do, I do however expect others to respect my belief just as I respect theirs.

If there are those that do not believe in The Holy Trinity, hey, that's their buisness, not mine.  I will not tell them that they are not this or not that or whatever.  It is not mine to judge them for their belief.  That being said, I do believe in the Holy Trinity and others have no right to tell me I am not this or not that, it is not theirs to judge me for my belief.

Will you agree to this statement?

[BornToReign]

You do understand that the Theou is YHWH correct?

Matthew 3:16
16. And being baptized, the Yeshua went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of the Theou descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

2 John 1:6-11 KJV
6. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9.  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11. For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Amen.

The life appeared, and we have seen it. We are testifying to it and announcing it to you - eternal life!
He was with the Father, and he appeared to us. What we have seen and heard, we are proclaiming to you; so that you too may have fellowship with us.

Our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Yeshua the Messiah. We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.  And this is the message which we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him - none! -1 John 1:2-5

John 6:40 CJB
Yes, this is the will of my Father: that all who see the Son and trust in him should have eternal life, and that I should raise them up on the Last Day."

John 17:3 CJB
And eternal life is this: to know you, the one true God, and him whom you sent, Yeshua the Messiah.

1 John 5:11 CJB
And this is the witness: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

[daq]

Ok, not gonna get a direct answer.  So let me say this.  I believe in the Holy Trinity, that being God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.  I do not demand or expect that anyone else believe as I do, I do however expect others to respect my belief just as I respect theirs.

If there are those that do not believe in The Holy Trinity, hey, that's their buisness, not mine.  I will not tell them that they are not this or not that or whatever.  It is not mine to judge them for their belief.  That being said, I do believe in the Holy Trinity and others have no right to tell me I am not this or not that, it is not theirs to judge me for my belief.

Will you agree to this statement?

Although I do agree with your statement in that everyone should have his or her right to their own opinion it is not me who has silenced anyone. And if your statement were true then why is it that I will be the one spending the remainder of my time here in the "Non-Traditional Theology" Forum? The following quote is from another thread now locked. You do not seem to understand that others of us here REVERENCE and cherish the Word to no end. Yet you would force others to risk blaspheming by confessing something that you CANNOT and HAVE NOT and WILL NOT prove in the Scriptures. Do you not know that anyone and everyone who attempts to prove the "trinity doctrine" ends up getting himself into trouble? Ask any true disciple, real pastor, or preacher who truly loves the Word: they will tell you to stay away from making bold claims if you fear YHWH, (in the good way of reverence).

------------------------------

Quote] Anyone who claims to know what they speak of concerning Scripture doctrine should be capable of explaining how he or she has justified placing YHWH into a "triune" or "three personage" BOX. Can anyone here leveling the accusations explain his or her position knowing full well the following passages of Scripture? Certainly we have all read the passages quoted below and certainly anyone calling for the removal or banishment of others will be able to explain the following Scripture passages, especially when calling for the removal of others on the grounds that they are not saved, not Christians, and/or intentionally promoting false teachings concerning the trinity. If there is no explanation forthcoming from the accusers then who are truly the ones misleading new believers and others who are not so well versed in the Scriptures? Who are the ones who should be banished or sent away to a backroom board? Who are the ones pontificating about things that they, he, or she, knows absolutely nothing about? Let those ones be anathema for leveling false accusations if they cannot prove with the Scriptures what they are claiming.

1) Please explain why the Revelation of Yeshua reveals the seven Spirits of the Theou to the reader and how this concept incorporates into and/or results in a "triune" or "three person" Creator in light of the fact that seven personages are recorded:

Revelation 1:4
4. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Seven Spirits ~ "hepta Pneumaton"

Revelation 4:5
5. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of the Theou.

"hepta Pneumata tou Theou"

Revelation 5:6
6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of the Theou sent forth into all the earth.

"hepta Pneumata tou Theou"

2) Also, in Revelation 3:1 Yeshua states that he has "the seven Spirits of the Theou". Please explain these seven "persona" Spirits of Theou which Yeshua has in light of a "three persona" doctrine.

Revelation 3:1
1. And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of the Theou, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

"hepta Pneumata tou Theou"

3) Also, from the passage above, it appears that the seven Spirits may in fact be the same as the seven stars; and yet the seven stars are the seven messengers of the seven churches. Please explain how the seven messengers to the seven churches being the seven Spirits of Theou would fit into a "three persona" doctrine since you have it all figured out and are now calling for those to be banished who disagree with your doctrine. Your answers to these things are imperative for the rest of us.

Revelation 1:20
20. The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the messengers of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
[End quote.

However, I do not mind being thrust "outside of the camp" for the sake of the Name of Yeshua and his doctrine, in fact, I count it an honor.

[JohnDB]

Where I don't usually quote or comment on Revelations.

This is one where Jesus/God directly contradicts what Caesar said about himself.

Caesar claimed to hold the seven stars in his hand...named after their gods.

Caesar claimed to be above all of the gods.

Jesus was claiming the same thing...cept Jesus was right and that their gods were no gods at all.

[Bitter Sweet]

However, I do not mind being thrust "outside of the camp" for the sake of the Name of Yeshua and his doctrine, in fact, I count it an honor.

The name of the city is Skopje.

When the truth testifies about Jesus (name begins with a V too) and God, we will be providing information that isn't in the bible. If it was in the bible already, we would all agree and already know these things.

[p.rehbein]

From DAQ:

Although I do agree with your statement in that everyone should have his or her right to their own opinion it is not me who has silenced anyone. And if your statement were true then why is it that I will be the one spending the remainder of my time here in the "Non-Traditional Theology" Forum? The following quote is from another thread now locked. You do not seem to understand that others of us here REVERENCE and cherish the Word to no end. Yet you would force others to risk blaspheming by confessing something that you CANNOT and HAVE NOT and WILL NOT prove in the Scriptures. Do you not know that anyone and everyone who attempts to prove the "trinity doctrine" ends up getting himself into trouble? Ask any true disciple, real pastor, or preacher who truly loves the Word: they will tell you to stay away from making bold claims if you fear YHWH, (in the good way of reverence).
---------------------------------------------------

This is as confusing to me as some of the other comments.

1)  I gave you the Scriptures which the belief of the Holy Trinity is based on.  They are all listed in Rule 6.  I have posted them several times.  Now, I DO NOT SAY that you have to believe them because I do.  However, I am obligated to point out the Rules that Admin has established for the Forums that he owns.  The Rules (if this is what you are referring to) are his rules.  That being said however, I do believe in the Scriptures referenced in those rules as being Biblical evidence of the Holy Trinity.

2)  How would I "force others to risk blaspheming"?  If you are referring to the Holy Spirit and blaspheme against Him being the unpardonable sin, then that is strange.  I have read many times that youall believe that God the Father and the Holy Spirit are one entity and not two parts of the Holy Trinity.  Seems I read that there was one Spirit and one Flesh ------ 1 + 1 = 1?  The only way I can envision this is that God the Father would actually be God the Holy Spirit Father yes?  Then there would be God the Holy Spirit Father and Jesus who is no longer flesh as He has ascended to the Throne of God the Father and is now again Spirit so the formula 1 + 1 = 1? I do not wish to tempt anyone into blaspheme, I'm trying to understand your stated beliefs. If you feel it would be dangerous to state your beliefs, then DO NOT DO IT!  God bless you for that.

Maybe it is easier for me to visualize this as a stool.  As I see/understad it, you believe that the Godhead is a two-legged stool and I (believing in the Holy Trinity) believe the Godhead to be a three-leged stool.

3)  No one is forcing you to stay here in the Non-Traditional Theology Forum.  The reason for this PARTICULAR SUBJECT being placed here is because it BEST FITS THIS FORUM.  Notice that anyone who wishes to discuss this issue has had to do so here.  Given the amount of hard feelings that were being generated all over the Forums, this was the best solution for all concerned.  Everyone has a chance to express/explain their beliefs.  What matters it that it's in this particular Forum?  You can certainly discuss topics posted in any of the other forums..........Politics, News of the World, General Discussion, shoot, don't you post in the psychology forum?

4)  You said:

You do not seem to understand that others of us here REVERENCE and cherish the Word to no end
--------------------------
What I can say to this is right back atcha!  I never made a statement that my belief was THE TRUTH which is a round about way of saying that anyone who disagreed with me did not believe in the truth.  I have never said that your beliefs were false or a lie, yet there are comments on this thread which surely imply that my beliefs are a lie.

5)  I have not silenced anyone.............this conversation/thread is getting much attention and who knows?  It may do a lot of good for someone...............

[JohnDB]

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skopje


The two religions that have had the greatest influence on the city are Orthodox Christianity, represented by the Diocese of Skopje, under the Macedonian Orthodox Church, and Islam. There also are smaller minorities of Catholics, Protestants and Jews.[51]


Church of St. Panteleimon.
Skopje has a diversity of churches and monasteries built in different styles - from Byzantine to modern architecture. One of the Byzantine examples is the Church of St. Panteleimon in Gorno Nerezi, near Skopje. The church contains Comnenian art and it was finished in the 1164. The church is known for its frescoes, representing a pinnacle of the 12th-century trend of intimacy and spirituality. They are often compared with similarly delicate works by Giotto, who worked 140 years later.[69] Another notable example of Byzantine architecture is Marko's Monastery which was built by Prince Marko in the 1366. The Churches of St. Nikita and St. Andrea both date from the 1300s and share Byzantine characteristics. The Church of Holy Mother of God was built in 1204 and later completely destroyed in a fire. The old church was previously rebuilt and consecrated in 1835, but destroyed during the 1963 Skopje earthquake. The present-day church's reconstruction began on 2 October 2002.[69] Despite Ottoman policies prohibiting the building of churches, there are a few churches in Skopje built during that period. The Church of Holy Salvation was built in the 16th century and is located between the Old Bazaar and Skopje Fortress. The revolutionary Goce Delčev is buried in the church courtyard. The Church of Saint Demetrius was built in the 18th century on the grounds of an older church from the 13th century. This church was an Orthodox cathedral church before the construction of the present-day cathedral church of St. Clement of Ohrid, which is an example of modern architecture. Built in 1972, the church was consecrated in 1990, on the 1150th anniversary of the birth of the church patron, St. Clement of Ohrid.[69] There is also a Catholic church named Holy Heart of Jesus in the center of the city.
The largest concentration of the mosques in the city is in the Old Bazaar, a part of the city with typical Ottoman Islamic architecture. One of the most eminent mosques is the Mustapha Pasha Mosque which was built in 1492 by Mustafa Paşa on an older Christian site.[70] It is an endowment of Mustapha Pasha, an eminent figure in the Turkish state during the rule of Sultan Bayezid II and Sultan Selim I.[71] Other important mosque include Isa Bey Mosque. Situated on the outskirts of the bazaar, this mosque was built as a memorial for Isa Bey after his death. The mosque has two dominant domes and five smaller ones above the porch area. The Ishak Bey Mosque was constructed in 1439 in the northern part of the Old Bazaar. The mosque's minaret rises 30 meters (98.4 feet). Ishak Bey, who retired in the city, is buried in the türbe behind the mosque.

[Bitter Sweet]

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skopje


The two religions that have had the greatest influence on the city are Orthodox Christianity, represented by the Diocese of Skopje, under the Macedonian Orthodox Church, and Islam. There also are smaller minorities of Catholics, Protestants and Jews.[51]


Church of St. Panteleimon.
Skopje has a diversity of churches and monasteries built in different styles - from Byzantine to modern architecture. One of the Byzantine examples is the Church of St. Panteleimon in Gorno Nerezi, near Skopje. The church contains Comnenian art and it was finished in the 1164. The church is known for its frescoes, representing a pinnacle of the 12th-century trend of intimacy and spirituality. They are often compared with similarly delicate works by Giotto, who worked 140 years later.[69] Another notable example of Byzantine architecture is Marko's Monastery which was built by Prince Marko in the 1366. The Churches of St. Nikita and St. Andrea both date from the 1300s and share Byzantine characteristics. The Church of Holy Mother of God was built in 1204 and later completely destroyed in a fire. The old church was previously rebuilt and consecrated in 1835, but destroyed during the 1963 Skopje earthquake. The present-day church's reconstruction began on 2 October 2002.[69] Despite Ottoman policies prohibiting the building of churches, there are a few churches in Skopje built during that period. The Church of Holy Salvation was built in the 16th century and is located between the Old Bazaar and Skopje Fortress. The revolutionary Goce Delčev is buried in the church courtyard. The Church of Saint Demetrius was built in the 18th century on the grounds of an older church from the 13th century. This church was an Orthodox cathedral church before the construction of the present-day cathedral church of St. Clement of Ohrid, which is an example of modern architecture. Built in 1972, the church was consecrated in 1990, on the 1150th anniversary of the birth of the church patron, St. Clement of Ohrid.[69] There is also a Catholic church named Holy Heart of Jesus in the center of the city.
The largest concentration of the mosques in the city is in the Old Bazaar, a part of the city with typical Ottoman Islamic architecture. One of the most eminent mosques is the Mustapha Pasha Mosque which was built in 1492 by Mustafa Paşa on an older Christian site.[70] It is an endowment of Mustapha Pasha, an eminent figure in the Turkish state during the rule of Sultan Bayezid II and Sultan Selim I.[71] Other important mosque include Isa Bey Mosque. Situated on the outskirts of the bazaar, this mosque was built as a memorial for Isa Bey after his death. The mosque has two dominant domes and five smaller ones above the porch area. The Ishak Bey Mosque was constructed in 1439 in the northern part of the Old Bazaar. The mosque's minaret rises 30 meters (98.4 feet). Ishak Bey, who retired in the city, is buried in the türbe behind the mosque.

His village is high on a mountain just outside Skopje. One of Pauls first churches is there but it has been closed for years. He has had the house for over 2,000 years and it has never been sold.

[JohnDB]

Mod Hat On



FYI...I cleaned this thread earlier...no one else that I am aware of did it.

But if they did...they did because they found someone to be in violation of the rules of this forum.

As I am going to lock this thread and clean it up again for the second time by the same posters who don't seem to get the message to not post the things that they seem bent on posting that violate the rules of this forum.

Specifically accusing anyone of anything at anytime. or name calling.

Mod Hat Off

[BornToReign]

This fits here.

Quote

John 16:7-15 KJV
7.  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8.  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9.  Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10.  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11.  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12.  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13.  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14.  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15.  All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

"He shall glorify me"

Who has the power to glorify??   Who?

Isaiah 48:11 ESV
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.

John 13:32 ESV
If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once.

for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak

John 15:15 ESV
No longer do I call you servants, for the servantdoes not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

John 14:10 ESV
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.


And many many think think there is an extra spirit, they think and teach that He is "another" but not Himself.  

They Two are One. Body and Spirit. There is no third person or third spirit, the trinity is a mistake from men's minds.


Colossians 2:9 ESV
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.