Matthew 28:16-20

[Lively Stone]

I think it's wonderful you're bringing up grammar.  My grammar died several years ago at the age of 90.  She was such a sweet woman, and made some of the best clam chowder you've ever tasted.  So, though I don't think of her that often any more, I have to say that my grammar was, and still is very important to me.

[P.F.]

In the NT, water baptism and faith are tied.

Now, hyper dispensationalists and Rm'ers separate baptism and faith and take their doctrines to extremes or the amount of time talking about it to extremes.

[Lively Stone]

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.

And the makes a difference how?

In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES

Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?

Why not discuss making disciples?   

The difference is that a correct understanding of what Jesus said, which can only be derived through the application of the correct grammar, means that it is through bapizing and teaching that disciples are made.  A nonuntypical rendering of the passage is that disciples are made, then they are baptized and taught.  At the far end of the spectrum are the Calvinists/Reformed theologians who say that because of total depravity until one is made a disciple (through regeneration) one cannot be taught and certainly baptism means nothing.  A slight modification to that is that one becomes a disciple (through faith alone after hearing the gospel) and then he should be baptized as a symbol his acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior.  But in fact, with correct grammatical rendering of the passage, what Jesus is saying is that one becomes [made]a disciple through being baptized and taught.

You said,

"Why not discuss making disciples?"  


I couldn't agree with you more.  But the issue here in relation to Matt 28:18-20 is that baptizing and teaching is how you make disciples not what you do to disciples.  Or in other words what does it take to make disciples.  If a disciple is a Christian, i.e.,  a saved child of God, did he become a disciple before he was taught?  No.  If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he beome a disciple before he was baptized?  No.  That is the plain message of Matt 28:18-20.  Or as you have tried to say elsewhere, "It says what it says.

And that is why all the hub bub about grammar.

I was seven years old when I read that passage and I understood it, without the understanding of grammar I have now!

The Bible is written so that a small child could understand it. Parsing scripture can be a ruse to find a loophole.

[gospel]

My question is if Jesus commanded one to baptize that has to be referring to water baptism correct?? If not how will I or anyone baptize in spirit just how does one do that if it is not in water? So I see in Acts 2:38 where Peter carried out the command from Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16  and in doing he made it clear that in this baptism is where the spirit is given.

Think hard about that if Peter did not baptize here with water how did he baptize with spirit.

When you lay hands on the sick and they recover ...you are not the healer, the Holy Spirit working through you is Him who heals

When you minister the Gospel of Christ and the Words cut to the heart of a person, It is not you causing the person to believe, it is the Word of God, for Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word
That person becomes a believer through hearing the Word and is Baptized into the Name of Jesus and the Body of Christ by The Holy Spirit...not the person speaking!

It is the Holy Spirit who is The Master Surgeon, He who circumcises the heart of a person

So when Peter spoke, the Holy Spirit was working, cutting to the heart of the 3000 on that Day of Pentecost

When the Word goes forth, The Holy Spirit goes into action confirming it ( See Genesis 1 )

When Jesus, The Living Word went forth The Holy Spirit, going into action confirmed Him

When the disciples went forth, In the Word, the Holy Spirit, going into action confirmed them

and....

When WE GO FORTH IN THE WORD BELIEVING AND DOUBTING

The Holy Spirit will go into action and confirm us too!  

[gospel]

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.

And the makes a difference how?

In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES

Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?

Why not discuss making disciples?   

The difference is that a correct understanding of what Jesus said, which can only be derived through the application of the correct grammar, means that it is through bapizing and teaching that disciples are made.  A nonuntypical rendering of the passage is that disciples are made, then they are baptized and taught.  At the far end of the spectrum are the Calvinists/Reformed theologians who say that because of total depravity until one is made a disciple (through regeneration) one cannot be taught and certainly baptism means nothing.  A slight modification to that is that one becomes a disciple (through faith alone after hearing the gospel) and then he should be baptized as a symbol his acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior.  But in fact, with correct grammatical rendering of the passage, what Jesus is saying is that one becomes [made]a disciple through being baptized and taught.

You said,

"Why not discuss making disciples?"  


I couldn't agree with you more.  But the issue here in relation to Matt 28:18-20 is that baptizing and teaching is how you make disciples not what you do to disciples.  Or in other words what does it take to make disciples.  If a disciple is a Christian, i.e.,  a saved child of God, did he become a disciple before he was taught?  No.  If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he beome a disciple before he was baptized?  No.  That is the plain message of Matt 28:18-20.  Or as you have tried to say elsewhere, "It says what it says.

And that is why all the hub bub about grammar.

What you have stated here is so complicated, so technically nuanced, so much so that it requires a tremendous amount of "effort" to understand what you are actually saying and the point you are trying to make.....

And what I'm saying is you are far more intellectually astute than Peter

In other words I GUARANTEE YOU Peter did not understand anything you just stated

Nor do I

He went and did

So should we

That's what Lively is trying to get across

Most War Heroes have never read War and Peace and most people who have ...
are not fit for battle if you get my drift

[gospel]

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.

And the makes a difference how?

In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES

Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?

Why not discuss making disciples?   

The difference is that a correct understanding of what Jesus said, which can only be derived through the application of the correct grammar, means that it is through bapizing and teaching that disciples are made.  A nonuntypical rendering of the passage is that disciples are made, then they are baptized and taught.  At the far end of the spectrum are the Calvinists/Reformed theologians who say that because of total depravity until one is made a disciple (through regeneration) one cannot be taught and certainly baptism means nothing.  A slight modification to that is that one becomes a disciple (through faith alone after hearing the gospel) and then he should be baptized as a symbol his acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior.  But in fact, with correct grammatical rendering of the passage, what Jesus is saying is that one becomes [made]a disciple through being baptized and taught.

You said,

"Why not discuss making disciples?"  


I couldn't agree with you more.  But the issue here in relation to Matt 28:18-20 is that baptizing and teaching is how you make disciples not what you do to disciples.  Or in other words what does it take to make disciples.  If a disciple is a Christian, i.e.,  a saved child of God, did he become a disciple before he was taught?  No.  If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he beome a disciple before he was baptized?  No.  That is the plain message of Matt 28:18-20.  Or as you have tried to say elsewhere, "It says what it says.

And that is why all the hub bub about grammar.

What you have stated here is so complicated, so technically nuanced, so much so that it requires a tremendous amount of "effort" to understand what you are actually saying and the point you are trying to make.....

And what I'm saying is you are far more intellectually astute than Peter

In other words I GUARANTEE YOU Peter did not understand anything you just stated

Nor do I

He went and did

So should we

That's what Lively is trying to get across

Most War Heroes have never read War and Peace and most people who have ...
are not fit for battle if you get my drift

[JohnDB]

Some of the main misunderstandings come from what people in that day in time understood about what was being said and done.

In Israel there was the beginning school which was called Bethgashepher. (Beth-gas-hep-her).  There all the boys and girls used the Torah to learn reading, writing, arithmetic, and history.  It was not compulsory until around 60 AD. But by that time most everyone did send their children to school.

Most all children in Israel were literate in Hebrew/Aramaic.

The Roman Government had produced a Greek Translation of the Hebrew Old Testament and it was produced in Seventy Days by seventy scholars...and thus nicknamed the Septuagent...and this was where all the Helenistic Jews learned the scriptures from...as well as most of the Gentile early church.

The second level of education was called BethMidrash. There students debated the Tenach and memorized the rest of the Old Testament.  (yes, they had already memorized the Torah)

The top and best students with the best records could go to a Rabbi (someone who interpreted the Torah for the masses) and ask them if they could follow them. (the Rabbi never asked the students) and if the student had good enough of a reputation then the rabbi would say, "yes" and then the student would do everything possible to become like the original rabbi he followed. "When you are a disciple you are to follow your rabbi so closely that the dust from his sandals covers you"

This following was so closely done. If the rabbi was left handed and you were right handed...you immediately switched.
If the rabbi snored and you didn't...you learned how to snore.
You would pray the exact prayer he prayed either before, during or at the end of every meal.
You were to become just like the rabbi so that no one could tell the difference behind your beards as to which was the original rabbi and which was the student.
To be a rabbi was extreme status for any family...the whole family tree would support a person who was a disciple. Rabbi were the judge and jury in many cases in those days.

Finally at the end of years of following a rabbi he would turn around to you one day and say, "Go make disciples"....meaning that now you were a rabbi in your own right...

So when Jesus did this to the Apostles/disciples it was understood in this manner....but instead of disciples of themselves they were to make disciples of Jesus....and in that name and fashion they were to enter the disciples into the priesthood and religious sect by performing what John called a "Baptism". Otherwise known as a ceremonial washing...the same word used here is the exact same word used in Genesis for what Joseph's brothers did to Joseph's coat after selling him into slavery...because to Jacob (when he seen the coat dipped in blood) Joseph was now dead.

Also when priests would enter their term of service in the Temple they also would take a ceremonial bath and put on ceremonial clothes. The dual significance was what this Baptism was about...the permission to personally handle the scriptures without the aide of a rabbi or Levite and to carry their own sins before God for forgiveness....unlike before when a Levite Priest would have to do it for you at the Temple.

Soooo...when I read this passage This is what I see as to going on.

Except I also remember one passage, "you didn't ask me I asked you"

[Jimmy]

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19  Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.

And the makes a difference how?

In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES

Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?

Why not discuss making disciples?   

The difference is that a correct understanding of what Jesus said, which can only be derived through the application of the correct grammar, means that it is through bapizing and teaching that disciples are made.  A nonuntypical rendering of the passage is that disciples are made, then they are baptized and taught.  At the far end of the spectrum are the Calvinists/Reformed theologians who say that because of total depravity until one is made a disciple (through regeneration) one cannot be taught and certainly baptism means nothing.  A slight modification to that is that one becomes a disciple (through faith alone after hearing the gospel) and then he should be baptized as a symbol his acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior.  But in fact, with correct grammatical rendering of the passage, what Jesus is saying is that one becomes [made]a disciple through being baptized and taught.

You said,

"Why not discuss making disciples?"  


I couldn't agree with you more.  But the issue here in relation to Matt 28:18-20 is that baptizing and teaching is how you make disciples not what you do to disciples.  Or in other words what does it take to make disciples.  If a disciple is a Christian, i.e.,  a saved child of God, did he become a disciple before he was taught?  No.  If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he beome a disciple before he was baptized?  No.  That is the plain message of Matt 28:18-20.  Or as you have tried to say elsewhere, "It says what it says.

And that is why all the hub bub about grammar.

What you have stated here is so complicated, so technically nuanced, so much so that it requires a tremendous amount of "effort" to understand what you are actually saying and the point you are trying to make.....

And what I'm saying is you are far more intellectually astute than Peter

In other words I GUARANTEE YOU Peter did not understand anything you just stated

Nor do I

He went and did

So should we

That's what Lively is trying to get across

Most War Heroes have never read War and Peace and most people who have ...
are not fit for battle if you get my drift

It is not nuanced at all.  As I said earlier, it is nothing more than high school grammar.  You know, nouns, pronouns, verbs, participles, etc.  Beyond that You have no way to GUARRANTEE me anything about what Peter did or did not understand.  To think you do takes even more arrogance than I would have ascribed to even you, gospel.  Nevertheless, it is written in Koine Greek, which was the common Greek of the day.  I seriously doubt that, after having spent three years in nearly perpetual contact with Jesus, who I am sure made no grammatical errors in His speaking, even poor old fisherman Peter had an excellant grasp of the Greek.  I would not in any way think that I am more intellectually astute than Peter.

Yes, Peter, "went and did".  But he went and did as Jesus instructed.  He didn't, with the exception of a couple of instances concerning hanging out with Gentiles, try to avoid the obvious teachings of Jesus and complain that what he said was "nuanced".

As for your mention of War and Peace, you seem to have a real knot in your gut about education.  Most people that I have run into who feel that way are people who have little or no formal education in the context in which they are speaking.  I don't know if that describes you or not.  I really don't care.  But I do take issue with your regular put down and insults about those who have been blessed with a good education.  And my response to any of those who would take issue with any having degrees of any sort is that whatever you can do without an education, you can do that and more with an education.

[gospel]

JohnDB, that was very good and very informative!

Manna to you

Yet I defer again to the scriptures

Finally at the end of years of following a rabbi he would turn around to you one day and say, "Go make disciples"....meaning that now you were a rabbi in your own right...
So when Jesus did this to the Apostles/disciples it was understood in this manner....but instead of disciples of themselves they were to make disciples of Jesus.

As to this point you are right on point and totally correct as evidenced in the following verse


The members of the council were amazed when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, for they could see that they were ordinary men with no special training in the Scriptures. They also recognized them as men who had been with Jesus. Acts 4:13


As to Jesus education, they seemed to be a wee-bit baffled

"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" Matthew 13:55,56


When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? Mark 6:2

[gospel]

It is not nuanced at all.  As I said earlier, it is nothing more than high school grammar.  You know, nouns, pronouns, verbs, participles, etc.  Beyond that You have no way to GUARRANTEE me anything about what Peter did or did not understand.  

You're a grown older adult man, set in your ways and you know what you know. Guaranteeing you about the simplicity of the Gospel and it's ability to be thoroughly understood by the unlearned and unstudied is not My Commission. You're a smart guy...why not show us how intelligently you can guarantee all of us that the Gospel cannot be understood WITHOUT a Strongs Dictionary, a Concordance, a Greek / Hebrew Lexicon and a thorough knowledge of grammar  

I seriously doubt that, after having spent three years in nearly perpetual contact with Jesus, who I am sure made no grammatical errors in His speaking, even poor old fisherman Peter had an excellant grasp of the Greek.  I would not in any way think that I am more intellectually astute than Peter.

So you are sure? That means you guarantee it huh? So I guess NOW we can all ignore Acts 4:13

they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men,

Yes, Peter, "went and did".  But he went and did as Jesus instructed.

ANOINTED Jimmy, the word is ANOINTED

Peter was anointed, as were all Jesus disciples, as are you if you learn to rely on it, trust in it and believe in it more than you do all your book learnin'  

Anointing is God's Ability to do something or be something, Anointing helps a person to surpass the limitations of human ability, YOU CAN'T LEARN ANOINTING, you have to be Anointed. That is where our Gifting abides, in that in which we are anointed. No anointing... No Holy Ghost Power!

As for your mention of War and Peace, you seem to have a real knot in your gut about education.  Most people that I have run into who feel that way are people who have little or no formal education in the context in which they are speaking.  I don't know if that describes you or not.  I really don't care.  But I do take issue with your regular put down and insults about those who have been blessed with a good education.  And my response to any of those who would take issue with any having degrees of any sort is that whatever you can do without an education, you can do that and more with an education.

I know you probably don't think so but I am actually not too shabby myself in the area of intellect HOWEVER

Methinks maybe you did not catch this in Genesis but some doctrines take some aspects of Genesis lightly... maybe yours does as well...but
KNOWLEDGE, trying to BE AS SMART AS GOD is the root cause of the Fall of Man.

Not evil but rather The knowledge of good and evil, which is the forerunner, the shadow and type of the Law.

Man not being able to handle the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil is why we need Jesus.

Hence my emphasis and thrust is always in understanding JESUS!

When I find myself on the slippery slopes of being a smarty pants, a fool that simply knows what  a book says by heart rather than what it means...I try to snatch myself back from the lofty pillars of ivory tower elitism and sit at the feet of the Master asking, Lord Jesus tell me what this means.

So no I don't put down intellect or intellectuals, I just enjoy calling to the mat those "intellectuals" who have a misplaced, misguided opinion of Intellect, placing it like a Golden Calf over and above a Knowledge of Christ and Him Crucified and all of what that entails!

Hence over emphasizing grammar in terms of discipleship, making an intellectual pursuit out of the Great Commission is pure foolishness to say the least

Nothing but pride and the height of arrogance can cause you to infer that someone is following a false doctrine and doesn't understand The Great Commission as well as you because of some nonsensical grammatical nuance...and YES it is a NUANCE!

A Trivial Pursuit

And my analogy rings true.

As a rule War Heroes don't read War and Peace, they are War Heroes because they follow orders, they GO and DO!

The King has said...GO and DO

In going, so doing whatever blah, blah, blah  

GO and DO!

[Lively Stone]

No matter how long Peter hung out with Jesus, it wouldn't have affected any Greek he knew. Jesus and Peter spoke Aramaic.

[yogi bear]

come on get back on track here was Matthew 28 carried out for the first time in Acts 2 and was it in water with giving of the spirit?

[Joyfullee]

Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:

Jhn 16:13   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jhn 14:26   But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jo 2:27   But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Cr 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Blessings

[Joyfullee]

come on get back on track here was Matthew 28 carried out for the first time in Acts 2 and was it in water with giving of the spirit?

I answered your question in an earlier post.

Blessings

Top of page 4.

[gospel]

Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:

Jhn 16:13   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jhn 14:26   But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jo 2:27   But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Cr 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Blessings

Well stated!

[JohnDB]

come on get back on track here was Matthew 28 carried out for the first time in Acts 2 and was it in water with giving of the spirit?

We don't know for sure.

What we do know is that there were Mikveh there that the priests used...also the pool of Siloam was also nearby.

And as far as praising God and the giving of the Holy Spirit...or do you mean "The Helper"?

That is also unclear at that time too...we see the Apostles doing that sort of thing...using the gifts of the "Helper"....but the rest is anyone's guess.

[Lively Stone]

come on get back on track here was Matthew 28 carried out for the first time in Acts 2 and was it in water with giving of the spirit?

Acts 2:41
Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day—about 3,000 in all.

All 3000 were baptized in water, and all would have been baptized in the Holy Spirit's power as the 120 were in the upper room.

[Jimmy]

Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:

Jhn 16:13   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jhn 14:26   But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jo 2:27   But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Cr 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Blessings

So let me understand what it is that you are saying here.  Even if you don't know the meaning of all the words, don't necessarily understand English grammar and other such things, you think the Holy Spirit will fill in the correct meaning for you anyway.  Is that about it?  Why not just read it in the original Greek.  Surely the HolySpirit can fill that it too, can't he?  He understand Greek just as well as English.

[Joyfullee]

Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:

Jhn 16:13   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jhn 14:26   But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jo 2:27   But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Cr 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Blessings

So let me understand what it is that you are saying here.  Even if you don't know the meaning of all the words, don't necessarily understand English grammar and other such things, you think the Holy Spirit will fill in the correct meaning for you anyway.  Is that about it?  Why not just read it in the original Greek.  Surely the HolySpirit can fill that it too, can't he?  He understand Greek just as well as English.

That's just very, very sad.

I believe that God can take someone who does not even know how to read, draw them to Him, save them, indwell them with the Holy Spirit and teach them just fine through His Spirit.

Blessings

[daq]

OP:
3. How is this to be carried out?

Apparently it begins with a DRINK! (of Living Water)  

This is by far the best answer that has been given.  However the answer to question 2 is not quite right.  In verses 19 and 20 only "go" and "make disciples" are commands. Grammatically, "baptizing" and "teaching" are not commands as such, but in fact are modifiers to the command "make disciples".  Jesus is not telling the eleven to make disciples and then baptize them and teach them; rather Jesus is telling the eleven how to make disciples.  He didn't tell them to make disciples and then baptize and teach them; instead He told them how to make disciples.

Suppose I had a roof that had been damaged in one way or another or it was just getting old and needed some upkeep.  I might call a roofing contractor to give me and estimate of what it would cost.  I might tell him, "I want you to fix my roof, inspecting it completely, replacing any rotted or otherwise damaged wood and putting new shingles on the entire roof." Grammatically, "inspecting", "replacing" and "putting" are modifiers describing what I mean by "fix",  It is a description of what how to fix the roof.

"Go, baptizing" is a complete command that tells the disciples to do two things.

If the courts took your understanding of the mandate, you would not have a leg to stand on in court should your errant roofer ignore the inclusions.

Lively,

I am sorry but you are wrong.  It has nothing to do with courts.  It really doesn't have anything to do with theology.  It is just plain good old high school English grammar.  Something that I am not sure they even bother to teach anymore.  And in this case it is good old Greek grammar as well.

I am gifted in grammar and have worked as a literary editor. Believe me, 'baptizing' is in a future progressive tense and can be used in an imperative. That is what this is.

Matthew 13:52
52.  Then said he unto them, Therefore every SCRIBE (GSN#1122) which is DISCIPLED (GSN#3100) INTO (GSN#1519 "eis") the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an HOUSEMASTER, (GSN#3617) which bringeth forth out of his thesaurus-treasure things new and old.

Strong's Greek Definition for #1122
1122 // grammateuv // grammateus // gram-mat-yooce' //
from 1121 ; TDNT - 1:740,127; n m
AV - scribe 66, townclerk 1; 67
1) a clerk, scribe, esp.a public servant, secretary, recorder,
whose office and influence differed in different states
2) in the Bible, a man learned in the Mosaic law and in the sacred
writings, an interpreter, teacher. Scribes examined the more
difficult and subtle questions of the law; added to the Mosaic
law decisions of various kinds thought to elucidate its meaning
and scope, and did this to the detriment of religion. Since the
advice of men skilled in the law was needed in the examination in
the causes and the solution of the difficult questions, they were
enrolled in the Sanhedrin; and are mentioned in connection with
the priests and elders of the people. See a Bible Dictionary for
more information on the scribes.
3) a religious teacher: so instructed that from his learning and
ability to teach advantage may redound to the kingdom of heaven.
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1122

Original Strong's Ref. #3100
Romanized  matheteuo
Pronounced math-ayt-yoo'-o
from GSN3101; intransitively, to become a pupil; transitively, to disciple, i.e. enrol as scholar:
KJV--be disciple, instruct, teach.

Original Strong's Ref. #3101
Romanized  mathetes
Pronounced math-ay-tes'
from GSN3129; a learner, i.e. pupil:
KJV--disciple.

Original Strong's Ref. #3617
Romanized  oikodespotes
Pronounced oy-kod-es-pot'-ace
from GSN3624 and GSN1203; the head of a family:
KJV--goodman (of the house), householder, master of the house.

Scribes, the "grammatically gifted" (and anyone else) can someone kindly point out the Old Testament passage where the following phrase is written? Yeshua clearly states; "AS THE SCIPTURE HATH SAID" before he quotes it. It does not necessarily need to be one of the following translations, any English translation will suffice:

John 7:37-39 KJV
37.  In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38.  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39.  (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 7:37-39 YGB
37.  And in the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 'If any one doth thirst, let him come unto me and drink;
38.  he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
39.  and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Where is this written in the Old Testament? 
"Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water ..."
"Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water ..."

[Jimmy]

Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:

Jhn 16:13   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jhn 14:26   But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jo 2:27   But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Cr 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Blessings

So let me understand what it is that you are saying here.  Even if you don't know the meaning of all the words, don't necessarily understand English grammar and other such things, you think the Holy Spirit will fill in the correct meaning for you anyway.  Is that about it?  Why not just read it in the original Greek.  Surely the HolySpirit can fill that it too, can't he?  He understand Greek just as well as English.

That's just very, very sad.

I believe that God can take someone who does not even know how to read, draw them to Him, save them, indwell them with the Holy Spirit and teach them just fine through His Spirit.

Blessings

That's just very, very sad.

It is quite true that God  can take someone who does not even know how to read, draw them to Him, save them, indwell them with the Holy Spirit and teach them just fine through another who teaches.

If what you said you believe was true, there would be Christians all over this world where missionaries or others have never been to take the message.  That is, in part at least, what Paul meant in Romans 10 where he wrote,

Rom 10:14  How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15  And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

I could take each one of the passages of Scripture that you posted and show that they do not say what you seem to think they say.  God's message is carried by people who know and love God.  They have the Holy Spirit as a guide and comforter.  But the Holy Spirit is not a substitute for human teachers.  That is the very reason that Jesus said what he did to the eleven disciples in Matt 28:18-20.  If that doesn't happen, then no one will hear.

And for any who would take the message, it is encumbant upon them to study God's word and to always strive understand what He is telling us in His word.

And yes, Joyfulee, that is just very, very sad that you do not understand what the work of the Holy Spirit really is all about.

[Jimmy]

For what it is worth, Barnes says the following:

As the scripture hath said - This is a difficult expression, from the fact that no such expression as follows is to be found literally in the Old Testament. Some have proposed to connect it with what precedes - "He that believeth on me, as the Old Testament has commanded or required

[Talking Donkey]

The end of the gospels, all in one passage...

Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, And he led them out as far as to Bethany, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

So then after the Lord had spoken these things unto them, he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, while they beheld, he was taken up; he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven, he was received up into heaven, and a cloud received him out of their sight, and sat on the right hand of God. And they worshipped him. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?  This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

And they returned with great joy unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day's journey. And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. 

And there are also many other things, many other signs, which Jesus truly did, in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: And, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Amen.

THE END

[Joyfullee]

Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:

Jhn 16:13   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jhn 14:26   But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jo 2:27   But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Cr 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Blessings

So let me understand what it is that you are saying here.  Even if you don't know the meaning of all the words, don't necessarily understand English grammar and other such things, you think the Holy Spirit will fill in the correct meaning for you anyway.  Is that about it?  Why not just read it in the original Greek.  Surely the HolySpirit can fill that it too, can't he?  He understand Greek just as well as English.

That's just very, very sad.

I believe that God can take someone who does not even know how to read, draw them to Him, save them, indwell them with the Holy Spirit and teach them just fine through His Spirit.

Blessings

That's just very, very sad.

It is quite true that God  can take someone who does not even know how to read, draw them to Him, save them, indwell them with the Holy Spirit and teach them just fine through another who teaches.

If what you said you believe was true, there would be Christians all over this world where missionaries or others have never been to take the message.  That is, in part at least, what Paul meant in Romans 10 where he wrote,

Rom 10:14  How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15  And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

I could take each one of the passages of Scripture that you posted and show that they do not say what you seem to think they say.  God's message is carried by people who know and love God.  They have the Holy Spirit as a guide and comforter.  But the Holy Spirit is not a substitute for human teachers.  That is the very reason that Jesus said what he did to the eleven disciples in Matt 28:18-20.  If that doesn't happen, then no one will hear.

And for any who would take the message, it is encumbant upon them to study God's word and to always strive understand what He is telling us in His word.

And yes, Joyfulee, that is just very, very sad that you do not understand what the work of the Holy Spirit really is all about.

I'll repeat:

Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:

Jhn 16:13   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jhn 14:26   But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jo 2:27   But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Cr 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Blessings

PS.  I did not say they never HEARD the word of God PREACHED.

What I am saying is that people do not have to parse every little word in every sentence to be able to understand God's Word. God's Word very clearly tells us that the Holy Spirit is our teacher.

[Elihu]

OP:
3. How is this to be carried out?

Apparently it begins with a DRINK! (of Living Water)  

This is by far the best answer that has been given.  However the answer to question 2 is not quite right.  In verses 19 and 20 only "go" and "make disciples" are commands. Grammatically, "baptizing" and "teaching" are not commands as such, but in fact are modifiers to the command "make disciples".  Jesus is not telling the eleven to make disciples and then baptize them and teach them; rather Jesus is telling the eleven how to make disciples.  He didn't tell them to make disciples and then baptize and teach them; instead He told them how to make disciples.

Suppose I had a roof that had been damaged in one way or another or it was just getting old and needed some upkeep.  I might call a roofing contractor to give me and estimate of what it would cost.  I might tell him, "I want you to fix my roof, inspecting it completely, replacing any rotted or otherwise damaged wood and putting new shingles on the entire roof." Grammatically, "inspecting", "replacing" and "putting" are modifiers describing what I mean by "fix",  It is a description of what how to fix the roof.

"Go, baptizing" is a complete command that tells the disciples to do two things.

If the courts took your understanding of the mandate, you would not have a leg to stand on in court should your errant roofer ignore the inclusions.

Lively,

I am sorry but you are wrong.  It has nothing to do with courts.  It really doesn't have anything to do with theology.  It is just plain good old high school English grammar.  Something that I am not sure they even bother to teach anymore.  And in this case it is good old Greek grammar as well.

I am gifted in grammar and have worked as a literary editor. Believe me, 'baptizing' is in a future progressive tense and can be used in an imperative. That is what this is.

Matthew 13:52
52.  Then said he unto them, Therefore every SCRIBE (GSN#1122) which is DISCIPLED (GSN#3100) INTO (GSN#1519 "eis") the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an HOUSEMASTER, (GSN#3617) which bringeth forth out of his thesaurus-treasure things new and old.

Strong's Greek Definition for #1122
1122 // grammateuv // grammateus // gram-mat-yooce' //
from 1121 ; TDNT - 1:740,127; n m
AV - scribe 66, townclerk 1; 67
1) a clerk, scribe, esp.a public servant, secretary, recorder,
whose office and influence differed in different states
2) in the Bible, a man learned in the Mosaic law and in the sacred
writings, an interpreter, teacher. Scribes examined the more
difficult and subtle questions of the law; added to the Mosaic
law decisions of various kinds thought to elucidate its meaning
and scope, and did this to the detriment of religion. Since the
advice of men skilled in the law was needed in the examination in
the causes and the solution of the difficult questions, they were
enrolled in the Sanhedrin; and are mentioned in connection with
the priests and elders of the people. See a Bible Dictionary for
more information on the scribes.
3) a religious teacher: so instructed that from his learning and
ability to teach advantage may redound to the kingdom of heaven.
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1122

Original Strong's Ref. #3100
Romanized  matheteuo
Pronounced math-ayt-yoo'-o
from GSN3101; intransitively, to become a pupil; transitively, to disciple, i.e. enrol as scholar:
KJV--be disciple, instruct, teach.

Original Strong's Ref. #3101
Romanized  mathetes
Pronounced math-ay-tes'
from GSN3129; a learner, i.e. pupil:
KJV--disciple.

Original Strong's Ref. #3617
Romanized  oikodespotes
Pronounced oy-kod-es-pot'-ace
from GSN3624 and GSN1203; the head of a family:
KJV--goodman (of the house), householder, master of the house.

Scribes, the "grammatically gifted" (and anyone else) can someone kindly point out the Old Testament passage where the following phrase is written? Yeshua clearly states; "AS THE SCIPTURE HATH SAID" before he quotes it. It does not necessarily need to be one of the following translations, any English translation will suffice:

John 7:37-39 KJV
37.  In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38.  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39.  (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 7:37-39 YGB
37.  And in the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 'If any one doth thirst, let him come unto me and drink;
38.  he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
39.  and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Where is this written in the Old Testament? 
"Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water ..."
"Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water ..."

"With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation."  -Isaiah 12:3

"The words of a man's mouth are deep waters; the fountain of wisdom is a bubbling brook."  -Proverbs 18:4

Then he brought me back to the entrance of the house, and I saw water flowing eastward from under the threshold of the house, for the house faced east. The water flowed down from under the right side of the house, south of the altar.  -Ezekiel 47:1

[Lively Stone]

The end of the gospels, all in one passage...

Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, And he led them out as far as to Bethany, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

So then after the Lord had spoken these things unto them, he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, while they beheld, he was taken up; he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven, he was received up into heaven, and a cloud received him out of their sight, and sat on the right hand of God. And they worshipped him. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?  This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

And they returned with great joy unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day's journey. And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. 

And there are also many other things, many other signs, which Jesus truly did, in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: And, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Amen.

THE END

There! That says it all! Thread done!    LOL!

[JohnDB]

JohnDB, that was very good and very informative!

Manna to you

Yet I defer again to the scriptures

Finally at the end of years of following a rabbi he would turn around to you one day and say, "Go make disciples"....meaning that now you were a rabbi in your own right...
So when Jesus did this to the Apostles/disciples it was understood in this manner....but instead of disciples of themselves they were to make disciples of Jesus.

As to this point you are right on point and totally correct as evidenced in the following verse


The members of the council were amazed when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, for they could see that they were ordinary men with no special training in the Scriptures. They also recognized them as men who had been with Jesus. Acts 4:13


As to Jesus education, they seemed to be a wee-bit baffled

"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" Matthew 13:55,56


When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? Mark 6:2

These sections of scripture relate to another tidbit that has been lost and rediscovered.

There were several "orders" or levels of rabbi.
Jesus took on the role of the highest order of rabbi known as a schmeeka rabbi...one who could speak with authority to interpret the Torah and say what the Law really meant.

Because of this they were rather offended at what they perceived as hubris.
There were no stories of Jesus being officially made a schmeeka rabbi by the established religious leaders. They knew his parents and family...and knew them to be simple construction workers and not of the religious elite Sadducee order or any other highly respectable order.

The truth of what he was saying was dismissed by his familiarity with the neighborhood.

It is a direct cousin of what I call "Powdered but syndrome"....IOW if someone has changed your diapers they ain't ever gonna think that you are smarter or better than they are.

[Jimmy]

Jhn 16:13   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jhn 14:26   But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jo 2:27   But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Cr 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

What Jesus said in John 16:13 was spoken to the eleven.  No one else was in the audience.  When he said "he [the Spirit of truth] will guide ....he will show you things to come."  Jesus was not speaking to you or me.  Do not expect the Holy Spirit to give you the power of prophecy or to show you all things.  Jesus spoke that to eleven men.  That does not address either you or me directly.  It was given to the eleven plus Paul the apostle and presumably Mathias.  You can not assume the authority Jesus gave to the apostles. 

The same for John 14:26.  It is the apostles, not you ,not me, whom the Holy Spirit was to teach all things.  It is bad enough that the Roman Catholic Church claims their leaders fall into some line of apostolic succession.  It is orders of magnitude worse that you would think that you think that you personally follow in that apostolic succession.  When Jesus said, "he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you," again that is spoken to the eleven, not you or me.  After all, Jesus has not personally said anything to you ever.

For John's statement in 1 John 2:27 you need to back up a couple of verses to see what John is talking about.  Namely,

1Jn 2:24  As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
1Jn 2:25  And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
1Jn 2:26  These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.

John wrote concerning their not being deceive by any coming teaching another gospel.  They should hold fast to what they had been taught. John is speaking about that which they had already been taught.  He is not speaking of any new revelation that they would be given.

And finally, the passage you cited in 1 Cor 2 is Paul's declaration of his own inspiration by the Holy Spirit.  It is most definitely not any teaching concerning what you yourself know.  Paul's "we speak" is the editorial "we", the royal "we" and perhaps the apostles.  But the "we" is most definitely not his audience or his readership.  Throughout that passage, he is contrasting himself with the false teachers which threatened many of the early Christian communities.  Their teaching, according to Paul, was dependent upon human wisdom or the philosophy of men.  His teaching, on the other hand, came with the "demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (v.4).

Joyfulee, none of those passages says anything about the Holy Spirit personally teaching you or me anything.  Does that mean the Holy Spirit is absent in our studies of God's word.  No, of course not.  But He is there with us to help us study, not do our homework for us.

Now it is true that so long as a person has sufficient mental capacity to know right from wrong and understand the consequences of their actions, then the word of God is capable of reaching that person to bring him to Christ and his own salvation even though that person might never understand much more than that.   And that certainly does not mean that the Holy Spirit is going to make that person a Bible scholar or anything close.

[Lively Stone]

Jimmy~

To believe what you have just said, you must be a cessationist, then, believing that the Great Commission and the gifts and callings of the Holy Spirit were only for the apostles and Jesus' immediate followers and not for the Church?

[Jimmy]

Jimmy~

To believe what you have just said, you must be a cessationist, then, believing that the Great Commission and the gifts and callings of the Holy Spirit were only for the apostles and Jesus' immediate followers and not for the Church?

Lively,

I said what I said, because that is what the Scriptures say.

We have the whole of the NT to teach us concerning what we as "ordinary" Christians need to be doing and the gifts that we have been given.  Pay heed to those and do not try to usurp the power and inspiration that has not been given you.

I do not need to be a cessationist to understand that I am not an apostle of Jesus Christ as were the 12 and Paul.

[Lively Stone]

Jimmy~

To believe what you have just said, you must be a cessationist, then, believing that the Great Commission and the gifts and callings of the Holy Spirit were only for the apostles and Jesus' immediate followers and not for the Church?

Lively,

I said what I said, because that is what the Scriptures say.

We have the whole of the NT to teach us concerning what we as "ordinary" Christians need to be doing and the gifts that we have been given.  Pay heed to those and do not try to usurp the power and inspiration that has not been given you.

I do not need to be a cessationist to understand that I am not an apostle of Jesus Christ as were the 12 and Paul.

Every spiritual gift and blessing has been given to us. We must appropriate them.

Ephesians 1:3-8
3 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ. 4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. 6 So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son. 7 He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. 8 He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding.

[Joyfullee]

Jimmy, you need to put away those books of yours and get you some indwelling Holy Spirit  teachings.

I'll tell ya right now, straight out, you truly don't see or understand the truth of God's Word, if you believe all that you wrote in your above post.

Line upon line, precept upon precept.  You need to take the whole counsel of God together, not build erroneous doctrine on bits and pieces, here and there.

Blessings

[Joyfullee]

[What Jesus said in John 16:13 was spoken to the eleven.  No one else was in the audience.  When he said "he [the Spirit of truth] will guide ....he will show you things to come."  Jesus was not speaking to you or me.  Do not expect the Holy Spirit to give you the power of prophecy or to show you all things.  Jesus spoke that to eleven men.  That does not address either you or me directly.  It was given to the eleven plus Paul the apostle and presumably Mathias.  You can not assume the authority Jesus gave to the apostles.  

John 16:17  Then said some of his disciples among themselves...

John16:29  His disciples said unto him...

John 16:31  Jesus answered them...

DISCIPLE - a learner, pupil

Blessings

[Lively Stone]

John 14:11-12
Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do.

"I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father.

Jesus promised that believers (not just apostles) may do the works that He did, and even greater, because He has returned to the Father and given us His Spirit.

Ministering in our spiritual gifts is very much a part of the "full gospel" ministry. Christ's disciples in the early Church did indeed do the works that He had done. They healed the sick, raised the dead, cleansed the lepers, cast out devils, and more. We must take note that Jesus' promise was not just to the disciples of that first generation, but to "ANYONE who has FAITH IN ME.

[candy]

Thank you Joyfulee and Lively Stone.  Indeed Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to all His believers, not only to the eleven apostles.  He didn't die for only them.  He died for all of us.  Jimmy should read John 14:11-12 where it says that anyone, that means all of us who believe, not just the eleven, may do the works He did....  Jimmy is in error thinking that Jesus was just speaking to the apostles only.  I truly thank our great God for all of His gifts and promises to us who believe on His son Jesus Christ.