Messianic Judaism

[DaveW]

I am new here (my old home - Christianity.com/Faithcommunity network) is in the process of shutting their forums down in favor of facebook.  Moving all 111,000 members or at least trying to.

So I went looking and came across this site, but was surprised with all the different denominational discussions going on that I have found no mention of Messianic Judaism. Or at least nothing since about 2009.

So if anyone has any questions about MJ, I will try to field them.

[dagelos]

Do Messianic Jews follow the anti-christian Babylonian Talmud?

[DaveW]

That is a good question.  Messianics are like other Jews in that it is nigh impossible to definitively nail down many things.  Ever hear the old joke that if you have 3 Jews you have 4 opinions?

There are some who do follow the Talmuds. But for most of the movement, they are looked at as historical and cultural information that can be important, but not inspired or authoritative in any way.

[dagelos]

That is a good question.  Messianics are like other Jews in that it is nigh impossible to definitively nail down many things.  Ever hear the old joke that if you have 3 Jews you have 4 opinions?

There are some who do follow the Talmuds. But for most of the movement, they are looked at as historical and cultural information that can be important, but not inspired or authoritative in any way.

Why are Jews so anti-Christian in their beliefs,the ones who follow the Talmud?

Also...

How different is Messianic Judaism,from actual Judaism?

[Jaime]

Messianic Jews believe Jesus is the Messiah for one. Messianics believe in the relevancy of the NT.

[dagelos]

Messianic Jews believe Jesus is the Messiah for one. Messianics believe in the relevancy of the NT.

Do Messianic Jews even if they believe Jesus is the Messiah - Do they follow rituals of Judaism such as Circumcision,not eating of Pork,Talmud etc etc

If indeed Messianics do believe in Jesus,why aren't they called Christians?

[DaveW]

Why are Jews so anti-Christian in their beliefs, the ones who follow the Talmud?

There are several possible reasons for that.  Ever since the debacle with Helenization in the 2nd and 3rd centuries bc, Jews have have made it a strong cultural point to avoid assimilation.  It is the only thing that kept them from disappearing after being forcibly removed from their homeland in 135 ad. No other ethnic group has lasted that long without a homeland.

Another more spiritual reason is that the devil knows that one of the requirements for the return of Our Lord is a critical mass of Jews who believe that Jesus/Yeshua IS Messiah and Divine and welcome HIM back to Jerusalem.  (MAtt 23)  By keeping the Jews SOOOO opposed to Christianity and promulgating the lie that if you believe that HE is Messiah you are no longr a Jew, then the 2nd coming will never take place.

How different is Messianic Judaism,from actual Judaism?

That assumes that MJ is NOT a real Judaism.  It is.

Dr Dan Cohn-Sherbok, a Reform Rabbi  who wrote a book on Messianic Judaism several years ago (and has spoken at a few MJ convocations) says there are several judaisms, including Orthodox, chassidic, conservative, reform, secular, and Karaite.

The primary difference between all those and Messianic is the Messianics' belief that Yeshua/Jesus IS the divine Messiah.  There is a wide variety of beliefs in MJ, pulling from many of those other judaisms listed and a variety of church sources.

[DaveW]

Do Messianic Jews even if they believe Jesus is the Messiah - Do they follow rituals of Judaism such as Circumcision,not eating of Pork,Talmud etc etc

Yes we follow the "customs of the fathers" (see Acts 28.17) but most do not see the Talmuds (there are 2 different talmuds) as authoritative or inspired. There is a big difference between what is commanded in scripture (such as circumcision and not eating pork) and what is imposed by rabbinic decree. Jewish believers in Jesus have a covenantal obligation to keep to the callings and commands given in scripture. Many of the commands of the Mosaic covenant are called "Perpetual statute" and that applies ONLY to the Jews. (like keeping a Saturday sabbath)

If indeed Messianics do believe in Jesus,why aren't they called Christians?

They are.  Every traditional Jew holds us to be "christians in disguise." Why do we not call OURSELVES "christians?" That is because we are more linguisticly tied to Hebrew than Greek.  Christian is from the Greek "christos" while Messianic is from the Hebrew "maschiach." Both words mean "anointed one." In the LXX, (Greek translation of OT) christos is used in place of maschiach.  So both words really mean the same thing.

But as Messianics feel a particular calling to bring the gospel to the Jewish community, "messianic" does not have the same cultural baggage as christian.  (the name associated with the Nazi death camps)

[Jaime]

A Messianic Jew is as much a Christian as a Messianic Gentile.

[DaveW]

A Messianic Jew is as much a Christian as a Messianic Gentile.

? ? ?

Didn't understand that one at all.

[dagelos]

Why are Jews so anti-Christian in their beliefs, the ones who follow the Talmud?

There are several possible reasons for that.  Ever since the debacle with Helenization in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, Jews have have made it a strong cultural point to avoid assimilation.  It is the only thing that kept them from disappearing after being forcibly removed from their homeland in 135 ad. No other ethnic group has lasted that long without a homeland.

Another more spiritual reason is that the devil knows that one of the requirements for the return of Our Lord is a critical mass of Jews who believe that Jesus/Yeshua IS Messiah and Divine and welcome HIM back to Jerusalem.  (MAtt 23)  By keeping the Jews SOOOO opposed to Christianity and promulgating the lie that if you believe that HE is Messiah you are no longr a Jew, then the 2nd coming will never take place.

How different is Messianic Judaism,from actual Judaism?

That assumes that MJ is NOT a real Judaism.  It is.

Dr Dan Cohn-Sherbok, a Reform Rabbi  who wrote a book on Messianic Judaism several years ago (and has spoken at a few MJ convocations) says there are several judaisms, including Orthodox, chassidic, conservative, reform, secular, and Karaite.

The primary difference between all those and Messianic is the Messianics' belief that Yeshua/Jesus IS the divine Messiah.  There is a wide variety of beliefs in MJ, pulling from many of those other judaisms listed and a variety of church sources.

Why are Jews anti-human in their Babylonian Talmud,there is a quote from the Talmud which regards gentiles been killed....

Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

Does Judaism support this? What about Messianic Jews?

[dagelos]

A Messianic Jew is as much a Christian as a Messianic Gentile.

Since when in the Bible is an individual referred to as a gentile?

[Jaime]

A Messianic Jew is as much a Christian as a Messianic Gentile.

Since when in the Bible is an individual referred to as a gentile?

All non-Jews are gentiles.

[DaveW]

Why are Jews anti-human in their Babylonian Talmud,there is a quote from the Talmud which regards gentiles been killed....

Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

Does Judaism support this? What about Messianic Jews?

No form of Judaism I know of supports this.

One thing you have to understand about the Mishnah and the 2 Talmuds (Babylonian and Jerusalem) is that there are presented opinions from every side of an issue. It is clearer in the Mishnah which was an earlier work (finished circa 200 ad) but that volume was the basis for both Talmuds  which were expansions of the Mishnah. Many minority opinions are presented, some are accepted as ok, some are not. 

[DaveW]

I got a voice mail from our senior Rabbi/Pastor today telling me that the message I spoke yesterday was posted on the congregational website.  We JUST redid our site and added a whole bunch of stuff including audio messages.  I had not looked at it since it went "live" last month. So I poked around a bit to see what all is there.

I noticed the Rabbi has published a bunch of his position papers there and there was one that deals with Messianic Judaism and how it relates to other Judaisms.  I thought it might be applicable to this discussion so here is the link:

http://www.genesisobservatory.us/ohev/Documents/Papers/Outline%20Explaining%20Messianic%20Judaism.pdf

[Claire]

One question that has not been answered was the question as to why some Jews are "anti-Christian."  Many of the older generation grew up with Christian antisemitism.  They experienced discrimination in education, jobs and housing.  My parents told me about how the kids would come out of the churches on holidays eager to beat up "the Christ-killers."  Some are holocaust survivors and children of holocaust survivors. 
"

[DaveW]

If you want a reason, get the book "Our Hands are Stained with Blood" by Dr Michael Brown.  It lists about 1800 years worth of the church hunting down and killing Jews culminating in the WW2 Shoah (holocaust)