The fulness of the Gentiles (Romans 11:25)

[thethinker]

You see, your tradition of Zechariah 12:10 is that it is about the second coming.  The inspired author of the fourth Gospel says otherwise.  Your tradition is refuted, not by me, but by the inspired writer.

EdwardGoodie,

You're correct. My study Bible note connects Zechariah 12:10 with salvation in John 6:40,

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks upon the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

[EdwardGoodie]

You see, your tradition of Zechariah 12:10 is that it is about the second coming.  The inspired author of the fourth Gospel says otherwise.  Your tradition is refuted, not by me, but by the inspired writer.

EdwardGoodie,

You're correct. My study Bible note connects Zechariah 12:10 with salvation in John 6:40,

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks upon the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

[pointmade]

Takes professional help to come to a conclusion that Zechariah 12:10 is of the Second Coming.

An excellent example of how this works is found in Acts 2.
In the first public proclamation of the complete gospel, Peter accused his audience of having nailed to a cross one accredited by sign and miracles, i.e., their Messiah (Acts 2:22f.).

The Apostle then went on to demonstrate by Scripture and logic that Jesus had been raised from the dead, and
he had been enthroned at the right hand of the Father. This powerful preaching caused those assembled to be pierced to the heart.

Through the gospel the Holy Spirit brought these sinners to faith in Christ and place them under conviction for their sin
The mourning over sin (Zech. 12:10b-14).
The realization that ones sins made necessary the piercing of the Lord leads to godly sorrow and repentance
(cf 2 Corinthians 7:10). "They will mourn for him."

The shift to the third person pronoun "him" is significant. The one who is pierced is Yahweh, but he is distinguished
from Yahweh. The language suggests two persons who in fact are one (cf John 10:30).
Yahweh declares that to pierce "him" is to pierce 'me'.
The passage clearly teaches the deity of the one pierced.

The mourning shall spread from Jerusalem to "the land" as men and women come to LOOK with the eye of faith upon him whom they have pierced.
The word "LOOK" is significant here as taken in connotation with John 3:14-15:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life,"

Note that when Moses lifted up the serpent of brass in the wilderness it was for the purpose of those who
had been  bitten by the firey serpent (sin).
To keep from dying from the bite of the serpent they MUST
"LOOK" upon the brass serpent to not die (Numbers 21:8-9).

Jesus was are sin upon the cross...When men "LOOK" with the eye of faith and are obedient
to the gospel they will receive the promise of Acts 2:39

[daq]

I got bumped and you beat me to the point pointmade! 

...Then, at the second coming, all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

Bible2,

What you just said above in that bolded, underlined, and blue (my emphasis) is SCRIPTURALLY INCORRECT.  You say Zechariah 12:10 refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ.  Here is the verse:

Zechariah 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.  

But in the fourth Gospel, the author uses Zechariah as the fulfillment to CHRIST'S FIRST COMING:

John 19:34-37 - But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.  
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.  
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.  
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.  

The only way out of your present dilemma (and poor exegesis) is to find another place in the Old Testament where  
"They shall look on him whom they pierced" is used.  And then you will have to prove that it refers to His second coming...as far as I know, there is no such other verse.

BUMP TO BIBLE2...

This is the FOCAL POINT of the entire Gospel message:

1 Corinthians 1:18-24 KJV
18.  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19.  For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20.  Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21.  For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22.  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23.  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24.  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

John 12:31-34 KJV
31.  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32.  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33.  This he said, signifying what death he should die.
34.  The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

John 3:14-16 KJV
14.  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15.  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16.  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Double Bump!!

[Linker]

This is a future event and has never take place in the past:


Zechariah
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Revelation
1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Not only that, but all of the events of Zechariah's visions recorded in chapters 12; 13; and 14 are still future events

..... just as all of these parallel events which are still future [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Jeremiah 30; 31; Exekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel [7:7-15; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27; 12;1-12; Joel 2: 3; Obadiah 1:1-21; Micah 5; Matthew 24:6-51; 24:29-51; 25:1-46; Mark 13:7-37; Luke 21:10-11; 21:20-36; 1Corinthians 15:22-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 6:1-17; 7:1-17; 8:1-13; 9:1-21; 11:1-19; 12:6-17; 13:1-18; 14:1-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 17:8-18; 18:1-24; 19:1-21; 20:1-15; 21:1-27; 22:1-5]    

[EdwardGoodie]

This is a future event and has never take place in the past:


Zechariah
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Revelation
1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Not only that, but all of the events of Zechariah's visions recorded in chapters 12; 13; and 14 are still future events

..... just as all of these parallel events which are still future [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Jeremiah 30; 31; Exekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel [7:7-15; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27; 12;1-12; Joel 2: 3; Obadiah 1:1-21; Micah 5; Matthew 24:6-51; 24:29-51; 25:1-46; Mark 13:7-37; Luke 21:10-11; 21:20-36; 1Corinthians 15:22-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 6:1-17; 7:1-17; 8:1-13; 9:1-21; 11:1-19; 12:6-17; 13:1-18; 14:1-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 17:8-18; 18:1-24; 19:1-21; 20:1-15; 21:1-27; 22:1-5]    

OMG...

Linker, are you serious?

Do you really believe John 19:37 DOES NOT refer to Zechariah 12:10?

Do you really believe Zechariah 13:7 is also a future event despite the fact that Jesus himself quoted Zechariah 13:7 in Matthew 26:31 AND Mark 14:27 in regard to His own Calvary experience?

Can you be so blind?

WOW!  All I can say is WOW!

Folks, this is what happens when the system (tradition) becomes the ruler over Scripture.

Linker, would you care to state why you don't believe the Gospel accounts of John 19:37, Matthew 26:31, or Mark 14:27?  No, probably not.  I am SOOOOOOOOOOOO used to futurists ignoring plain Scriptural fulfillments, and all because it doesn't fit into their tradition.

And Linker, if you believe the fourth Gospel and Revelation were written by the same inspired fellow, wouldn't it just make plain sense that he is talking about the same group of people who were responsible for having Jesus crucified?

I could mention Scripture to make this more clear but I doubt you accept the Word of God as having anything to do with anything anymore...okay, okay, you twisted my arm...

Revelation 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:   

Revelation 1:3 - Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.  

By the way, your "kindreds" from Revelation 1:7 is translated as "tribes" in the majority of instances.  Don't believe me?  Just check out Strong's G5443 and see for yourself...

Have another great day!

I still cannot believe what Linker has denied...WOW!

[Bible2]

Jimmy said:

No, that is not what Paul means at all.

It is.

Jimmy said:

If he would have meant full number of gentiles, he would have said full number of gentiles. But he didn't say that.

Romans 11:25b doesn't have to say "until the fulness of the number of Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25b), in order to mean that; just as Revelation 6:11 doesn't have to say "until the number of their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled [Greek: pleroo, from which pleroma is derived]", in order to mean that.

Jimmy said:

He said the "fulness [Greek: pleroma] of the gentiles". 

By that he meant the full number of Gentiles.

Jimmy said:

The word fulness [Greek: pleroma] in 11:25 carries the same meaning as fulness [Greek: pleroma] in 11:12. 

That's right. In both cases it means the full number of individuals.

Jimmy said:

Translating the Greek word [pleroma] in 11:25 as full number is an obvious distortion to align with a particular view of the end times.

It isn't a distortion at all to understand "until the fulness [pleroma] of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25b) as meaning until the full number of Gentiles have become saved, just as it isn't a distortion at all to understand "until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled [Greek: pleroo, from which pleroma is derived]" as meaning until the full number of martyrs have been killed.

Jimmy said:

And it is wrong.

It's right.

Jimmy said:

The fulness of the gentiles was accomplished a long time ago.  Probably by the end of the first century, or certainly very soon thereafter.

Romans 11:25b won't be accomplished until right before the second coming of Jesus (Romans 11:26b), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled" (pleroma) until the treading down of Jerusalem during the coming 42-month worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 11:2b, cf. Revelation 13:5-18) is completed during the latter half of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18/Matthew 24. Then, immediately after the tribulation, at the second coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

[daq]

Romans 11:25b won't be accomplished until right before the second coming of Jesus (Romans 11:26b), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled" (pleroma) until the treading down of Jerusalem during the coming 42-month worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 11:2b, cf. Revelation 13:5-18) is completed during the latter half of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18/Matthew 24. Then, immediately after the tribulation, at the second coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

This is a future event and has never take place in the past:


Zechariah
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Revelation
1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Not only that, but all of the events of Zechariah's visions recorded in chapters 12; 13; and 14 are still future events

..... just as all of these parallel events which are still future [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Jeremiah 30; 31; Exekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel [7:7-15; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27; 12;1-12; Joel 2: 3; Obadiah 1:1-21; Micah 5; Matthew 24:6-51; 24:29-51; 25:1-46; Mark 13:7-37; Luke 21:10-11; 21:20-36; 1Corinthians 15:22-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 6:1-17; 7:1-17; 8:1-13; 9:1-21; 11:1-19; 12:6-17; 13:1-18; 14:1-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 17:8-18; 18:1-24; 19:1-21; 20:1-15; 21:1-27; 22:1-5]   

You both speak only for yourselves from a physical perception and interpretation of what is a spiritual Scripture and Word. The house of David ("kings") is confirmed in the "Covenant of the Cup" at the Last Supper. There are two covenants confirmed in the Gospel accounts: the first is the Mosaic Covenant "with the many" and is not stated to be a "new" Covenant. The word "kainos" ("new") in regards to the Passover Supper appears ONLY in Luke 22:20 and is in reference to the "Covenant of the Cup" (of the "kings"-rulers).

The Mosaic Covenant was confirmed "with the many" ~

Matthew 26:27-29 ASV
27.  And he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28.  for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.
29.  But I say unto you, I shall not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Mark 14:23-25 ASV
23.  And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave to them: and they all drank of it.
24.  And he said unto them, This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
25.  Verily I say unto you, I shall no more drink of the fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Luke 22:17-19 ASV
17.  And he received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18.  for I say unto you, I shall not drink from henceforth of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19.  And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The "Covenant of the Cup" with the "kings-rulers" ~

Luke 22:20 ASV
20.  And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you.

Luke 22:28-30 ASV
28.  But ye are they that have continued with me in my temptations;
29.  and I appoint unto you a kingdom, even as my Father appointed unto me,
30.  that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; and ye shall sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Psalms 23:4-5 KJV
4.  Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5.  Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup Runneth over.

Psalms 116:12-15
12.  What shall I render unto YHWH for all his benefits toward me?
13.  I will take the cup of Yeshua, (HSN#3444 yshuw`ah) and call upon the name of YHWH.
14.  I will pay my vows unto YHWH now in the presence of all his people.
15.  Precious in the sight of YHWH is the death of his saints.

Original Strong's Ref. #3444
Romanized  yshuw`ah
Pronounced yesh-oo'-aw
feminine passive participle of HSN3467; something saved, i.e. (abstractly) deliverance; hence, aid, victory, prosperity:
KJV--deliverance, health, help(-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.

Concerning the return of Christ you are looking for the signs to occur according to "the eyes of the flesh" and what may be seen in the physical world. Yet, in reality, these things happen to each in his own appointed times and have been ongoing since the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ. Where does the Scripture state that everyone on "planet earth" will see Christ return "ALL AT THE SAME MOMENT IN TIME"? Please quote the Scripture chapter and verse.

Mark 7:18-23 KJV
18.  And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19.  Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20.  And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21.  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22.  Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23.  All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

THE "JEWS" OF THE FLESH SEEK A SIGN  ~

Luke 11:29-36 KJV
29.  And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
30.  For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
31.  The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
32.  The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
33.  No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
34.  The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
35.  Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
36.  If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

Revelation 1:7 KJV
7.  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye (singular) shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Perhaps you have the wrong "eye" ...

[Bible2]

EdwardGoodie said:

What you just said above in that bolded, underlined, and blue (my emphasis) is SCRIPTURALLY INCORRECT.

It's scripturally correct.

EdwardGoodie said:

You say Zechariah 12:10 refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

That's right.

EdwardGoodie said:

Here is the verse:

Zechariah 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 

But in the fourth Gospel, the author uses Zechariah as the fulfillment to CHRIST'S FIRST COMING:

John 19:34-37 - But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.   
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.   
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.   
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. 

The only way out of your present dilemma (and poor exegesis) is to find another place in the Old Testament where 
"They shall look on him whom they pierced" is used.  And then you will have to prove that it refers to His second coming...as far as I know, there is no such other verse.

There's no dilemma, the exegesis is good, and there doesn't have to be another "They shall look on him whom they pierced" verse in the Old Testament. For John 19:37 doesn't say or mean that Zechariah 12:10-14 was "fulfilled" at Jesus' crucifixion, because it wasn't. Zechariah 12:10-14 won't be fulfilled until Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 12:9-14, cf. Zechariah 14:2-21).

All John 19:37 means is that the pierced places on Jesus' body which will be seen by the Jews who will get saved by grace when they see him at his second coming (Zechariah 12:10-14), were pierced at his crucifixion. Zechariah 13:6 shows that at Jesus' second coming and during the subsequent millennium (which is when all of the still-unfulfilled Zechariah 13:2-6 will be fulfilled), Jesus will have to explain to at least one person (perhaps a very young child) how he got his wounds.

[daq]

There's no dilemma, the exegesis is good, and there doesn't have to be another "They shall look on him whom they pierced" verse in the Old Testament. For John 19:37 doesn't say or mean that Zechariah 12:10-14 was "fulfilled" at Jesus' crucifixion, because it wasn't. Zechariah 12:10-14 won't be fulfilled until Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 12:9-14, cf. Zechariah 14:2-21).

All John 19:37 means is that the pierced places on Jesus' body which will be seen by the Jews who will get saved by grace when they see him at his second coming (Zechariah 12:10-14), were pierced at his crucifixion. Zechariah 13:6 shows that at Jesus' second coming and during the subsequent millennium (which is when all of the still-unfulfilled Zechariah 13:2-6 will be fulfilled), Jesus will have to explain to at least one person (perhaps a very young child) how he got his wounds.

There is no dilemma for you in your own exegesis because you do not know who we become IN CHRIST. Paul is not speaking as to Jews being the ones having "blindness in part" but rather he speaks of Israel in Romans 11. If your understanding were correct it would be a contradiction to Scripture and the very Words of Christ.

John 4:21-22 KJV
21.  Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22.  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

And likewise Paul does not contradict this truth in Romans:

Romans 1:15-16 KJV
15.  So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16.  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:8-11 KJV
8.  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9.  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10.  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11.  For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 10:12-13 KJV
12.  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13.  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

All through Romans it is "Jews and Greeks, Jews and Gentiles" and suddenly in Romans 11 Paul begins speaking of ISRAEL. Do you not find that somewhat perplexing? It is not "the Jews" whom he implies are "blind in part" but rather THE GENTILES because they do not yet fully understand who they become when GRAFTED INTO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL IN CHRIST. And until they do understand, (each in his appointed time) they remain in partial blindness. This is one of the results of the false teachings of the dispensationalist shepherds and their denials of many of the prophecies which are fulfilled by and in Christ Yeshua. It is not Judah or the Jews who were blind in part which Paul speaks of in Romans 11. The Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, for the most part understood what Yeshua said and for that they killed him. How many of the disciples were Jews?

Zechariah 12:7 KJV
7.  The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

Dispensationalists have it backwards so that they may insist that Yeshua return to fulfill, in the flesh, that which he already refused to do the first time because his Kingdom is not of this world.

[EdwardGoodie]

EdwardGoodie said:

What you just said above in that bolded, underlined, and blue (my emphasis) is SCRIPTURALLY INCORRECT.

It's scripturally correct.

EdwardGoodie said:

You say Zechariah 12:10 refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

That's right.

EdwardGoodie said:

Here is the verse:

Zechariah 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 

But in the fourth Gospel, the author uses Zechariah as the fulfillment to CHRIST'S FIRST COMING:

John 19:34-37 - But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.   
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.   
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.   
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. 

The only way out of your present dilemma (and poor exegesis) is to find another place in the Old Testament where 
"They shall look on him whom they pierced" is used.  And then you will have to prove that it refers to His second coming...as far as I know, there is no such other verse.

There's no dilemma, the exegesis is good, and there doesn't have to be another "They shall look on him whom they pierced" verse in the Old Testament. For John 19:37 doesn't say or mean that Zechariah 12:10-14 was "fulfilled" at Jesus' crucifixion, because it wasn't. Zechariah 12:10-14 won't be fulfilled until Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 12:9-14, cf. Zechariah 14:2-21).

All John 19:37 means is that the pierced places on Jesus' body which will be seen by the Jews who will get saved by grace when they see him at his second coming (Zechariah 12:10-14), were pierced at his crucifixion. Zechariah 13:6 shows that at Jesus' second coming and during the subsequent millennium (which is when all of the still-unfulfilled Zechariah 13:2-6 will be fulfilled), Jesus will have to explain to at least one person (perhaps a very young child) how he got his wounds.

Sorry, Bible2 but your forced exegesis does not wash...

You need to read John 19:36 with some discerning eyes:

John 19:36-37 - For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.  
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.  

What you fail to see, because your tradition demands otherwise, is that the inspired author says that these things were done so that the following two Scriptures should be fulfilled.

The inspired author is very clear on this.  You say Zechariah 12:10 wasn't fulfilled at Calvary.  The inspired author says it was.  If you say that Zechariah 12:10 wasn't fulfilled then you must also say that either Psalm 34:20 or Exodus 12:46 in regard to no bones being broken wasn't fulfilled either.  You cannot exegetically split the two fulfillments - one into the past and one into the future.  It is not difficult as to the testimony that should be accepted...

I am gonna go with the inspired author on this one...you will probably stick to your tradition though...

I suppose you think Matthew 26:31 and Mark 14:27 also do not refer to a fulfillment of Zechariah 13:7???

Folks, isn't it amazing how Scripture is ignored and twisted just to suit a system of theology.  And this analysis is not specific to preterism at all.  It was long in effect before the system of dispensationalism came along in the mid 1800s and started ignoring the New Testament illumination on the Old Testament Scriptures...

It would be funny if it wasn't so tremendously sad...

[Bible2]

thethinker said:

I did not mean that they were entirely lost.

That's good.

It's because the 10 tribes weren't entirely lost that the genetic Jews alive today can include members of all twelve tribes.

thethinker said:

Nope! There is no Jewish race today. See the Encyclopedia Britannica.

The Encyclopedia Britannica doesn't prove that there is no Jewish race today. For the Bible shows there will still be Jews alive on the earth at Jesus' still-unfulfilled second coming (Zechariah 12:9-14, Zechariah 14:2-21).

thethinker said:

Verse 17 says that Christ "came and preached" to them.

That was addressed back in reply #23.

thethinker said:

Christ was sent not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

That was addressed back in reply #23.

thethinker said:

Paul CLEARLY said that they were "gentiles" because they were uncircumcised. He clearly said that they were gentiles so called by the Circumcision. They were NOT genetic Gentiles.

They were genetic Gentiles.

When Ephesians 2:11 says "ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh", it's addressing believing genetic Gentiles who in time past were unsaved, but then had become saved and had become spiritually-circumcised Jews by undergoing the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

When Ephesians 2:11 says "who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands", it means that even though those now-saved genetic Gentiles had become spiritually-circumcised Jews, those physically-circumcised Jews who mistakenly thought that physical circumcision was still required (e.g. Acts 15:1), were mistakenly considering those now-saved genetic Gentiles who had become spiritually-circumcised spiritual Jews, as still being uncircumcised spiritual Gentiles.

thethinker said:

In 3:1 Paul said that he was imprisoned for you "gentiles."

Meaning genetic Gentiles.

thethinker said:

The book of Acts CLEARLY reveals that He was imprisoned for preaching the hope of Israel to Israel. 

The hope of Israel (Acts 28:20b) includes both genetic Jews and genetic Gentiles. For all those in the church who are genetic Jews remain Israel (Romans 11:1), and all those in the church who are genetic Gentiles have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b).

thethinker said:

Ephesians 2 is all about the incorporation of those who were called gentiles by the Jews.

That was addressed earlier in this reply (see the "When Ephesians 2:11 says..." paragraphs above).

thethinker said:

According to the Abrahamic covenant an uncircumcised Israelite was to be "cut off from the people" and was therefore to be counted as a gentile.

Ephesians 2 isn't addressing uncircumcised genetic Israelites, but genetic Gentiles.

thethinker said:

Again, verse 17 says Christ "came and preached" to them.

Again, that was addressed back in reply #23.

thethinker said:

This proves that they were genetic Israelites because Jesus was sent not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Again, that was addressed back in reply #23.

thethinker said:

You're begging the question.

Not true.

thethinker said:

The "other sheep" were those of Israel who had been cast out of the covenant.

They weren't. They were genetic Gentiles. That's why the gospel had to be preached eventually to every creature (Mark 16:15), not just to genetic Israelites.

thethinker said:

Again you're begging the question.

Again, not true.

thethinker said:

Paul was speaking about the elect remnant of Israel or so called gentiles of his generation.

Paul was speaking about elect genetic Gentiles in Romans 11:25c.

thethinker said:

He said, "Even so at the PRESENT TIME there is a remnant according to the election of grace" (11:5).

There he's speaking of genetic Israelites (Romans 11:1).

thethinker said:

The salvation of that remnant was the "fulness of the gentiles."

It wasn't. For the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles won't be come in until right before the second coming of Jesus (Romans 11:25-26); just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled" (pleroo) until the treading down of Jerusalem during the coming 42-month worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 11:2b, cf. Revelation 13:5-18) is completed during the latter half of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18/Matthew 24. Then, immediately after the tribulation, at the second coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14).

thethinker said:

They were grafted back into the olive tree and the tree was complete with all its branches. After all the branches were grafted in, then the tree could bear olive fruit (genetic genties).

Rather, individual genetic Jews are the "natural branches" of their own good, olive tree of Israel, whereas individual genetic Gentiles are branches of a different, "wild" olive tree which are grafted into the tree of Israel when they become believers (Romans 11:24-25).

thethinker said:

If what you are saying is correct, then genetic gentiles have not yet comme into salvation for the branches MUST all be grafted back in before the tree can bear fruit (genetic gentiles).

No verse says that.

thethinker said:

Genetic gentiles are NOT the branches. Genetic gentiles are THE FRUIT!

Tree root: genetic Jews

Branches: genetic Israelites who had been removed from the tree and grafted back in (called "gentiles")

Olive fruit: genetic gentiles.

If genetic gentiles are branches as is commonly taught, then who is the fruit? The branches MUST bear fruit.

Both individual genetic Jews (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentiles (wild branches) are branches (Romans 11:24), and the fruit of each individual branch is the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10).

[Bible2]

daq said:

You both speak only for yourselves from a physical perception and interpretation of what is a spiritual Scripture and Word.

The spiritual Scripture and Word can refer to physical matters. Even Jesus Christ's resurrection into immortality was physical, for he wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but was resurrected in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why his tomb was empty (Matthew 28:6) and why he still had the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven, for Jesus remains our fully-human mediator (1 Timothy 2:5); he will remain our fully-human high priest forever (Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like us (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Beware the Gnostic lie that Christ isn't in the flesh, for it will be one of the key deceptions of the coming Antichrist (1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7). The Gnostics mistakenly think that flesh is evil in itself, and that only that which is pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39) and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God himself as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

We know that Adam and Eve were flesh because they were the progenitors of the human race alive today, and we know that Adam and Eve were immortal before they fell into sin because it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. So the future resurrection and changing of the saved into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will simply be God allowing all of saved humanity to partake of the original, very good, immortal flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also beware the more-general Gnostic lie that the created, physical universe is evil in itself and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good, for this lie is employed by Gnosticism to revile the Creator YHWH as some sort of evil, tyrant god, who Gnosticism says created the physical universe only as a foul prison house for the free spirits of humans, who Gnosticism says by some accident fell from a purely-spiritual heaven into the physical universe and became trapped within physical bodies. No doubt the coming Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that the physical world was originally created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14) and that God would ultimately come down out of heaven to live with man forever on a new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8).

And on the new earth all of saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to saved humans, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. All of saved humanity will be able to live in an earthly paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and all their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

daq said:

The house of David ("kings") is confirmed in the "Covenant of the Cup" at the Last Supper.

The Last Supper covenant is the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34), for at the Last Supper, Jesus specifically said: "this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28; see also Mark 14:24 and Luke 22:20). In all three of these references, the original Greek word translated as "new" is "kainos" (G2537), which means just that ("new"). And the original Greek word translated in all three references as "testament" is "diatheke" (G1242), which means "covenant" (Hebrews 12:24). The church is saved only by the New Covenant (1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15, 12:24).

daq said:

The word "kainos" ("new") in regards to the Passover Supper appears ONLY in Luke 22:20...

Not true. The word "kainos" ("new") in regards to (the covenant of) the Passover Supper appears in the original Greek (and so in the KJV) not only in Luke 22:20, but also in Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, and 1 Corinthians 11:25.

[Bible2]

daq said:

Luke 22:28-30 ASV
28.  But ye are they that have continued with me in my temptations;
29.  and I appoint unto you a kingdom, even as my Father appointed unto me,
30.  that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; and ye shall sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Regarding "my kingdom" in Luke 22:30, while the kingdom of God is spiritual and in the present (Romans 14:17), within people (Luke 17:21), the kingdom of God will also be physical in the future (Luke 22:30), on the earth, first during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 20:4-6) and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4). In both cases, what the church says in Revelation 5:10 will apply: "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth".

Jesus Christ's kingdom is Israel (John 12:13b-15, John 1:49b, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his second coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' return he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a), and fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29.

And Jesus will also bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David, for they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in Jesus when they see him at his second coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will become part of the church at that time, for there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

During the millennium, Gentile nations will come up to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) upon the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

For, regarding "the twelve tribes of Israel" in Luke 22:30, just as all genetic Jews in the church remain members of the tribe of Israel into which they were born (Romans 11:1b, Acts 4:36b), so all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b). This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he's a part of, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

[Bible2]

daq said:

Concerning the return of Christ you are looking for the signs to occur according to "the eyes of the flesh" and what may be seen in the physical world.

Jesus will return "in like manner" as his ascended (Acts 1:11b). Just as he was seen by the physical eye to physically ascend from the Mount of Olives into heaven at the end of his first coming (Acts 1:9,12), so at his second coming he will be seen by the physical eye (Revelation 1:7) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-21).

daq said:

Yet, in reality, these things happen to each in his own appointed times and have been ongoing since the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ.

No scripture says that, if by "these things" you're including the second coming of Jesus. And Matthew 24:29-31 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 even expressly counter that idea. For Matthew 24:29-31 shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the still-unfulfilled tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-20:6) of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18. And 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 shows that Jesus' second coming can't occur (the day of Christ/the day of the Lord can't begin) and the church can't be raptured (gathered together to Jesus) until sometime after there's an apostasy (a falling away) in the church (2 Thessalonians 2:3a) and the Antichrist is revealed by sitting in a third Jewish temple and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4). For the Antichrist will be destroyed at Jesus' second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20), which is also when the rapture and marriage of the church will occur (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7).

While 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to (correctly) refute pre-trib rapturism, Paul there wasn't so much countering pre-trib rapturism as he was countering the mistaken idea of full preterism, which claims that the day of the Lord is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2) (in the sense of being already present), that the second coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already past (2 Timothy 2:18).

Paul was careful to counter full preterism because it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18); it can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at the second coming of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 20:4-6).

Both preterism (whether full or partial) and pre-trib rapturism could be animated at least in part by the fear that the church which is presently alive would otherwise have to go through the awful suffering of the tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18. For both preterism and pre-trib rapturism give a mistaken assurance to the living church that it won't have to suffer through the tribulation: preterism says that the tribulation already happened back in 70 AD, and pre-trib rapturism says that Jesus Christ will return and rapture the church into the third heaven before the tribulation begins.

But when the tribulation begins in the future, the shaky doctrinal wall which preterism and pre-trib rapturism have tried to build up between the living church and the tribulation will be completely shattered (cf. Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the living church begins to suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-12, Revelation 20:4). Preterism and pre-trib rapturism may have left some in the living church completely unprepared mentally to undergo this suffering, to where preterism and pre-trib rapturism could even contribute to some in the living church committing apostasy during the tribulation as they become "offended" that God would make them and their little ones go through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).

Even though the living church will have to suffer through the coming tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, the living church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10), because even though many in the living church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain (Philippians 1:21,23, 2 Corinthians 5:8, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Timothy 2:12), and it will in no way rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at the second coming of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 20:4-6).

[Bible2]

daq said:

Where does the Scripture state that everyone on "planet earth" will see Christ return "ALL AT THE SAME MOMENT IN TIME"? Please quote the Scripture chapter and verse.

Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 show that everyone will see Jesus Christ's second coming; and his second coming will happen only one time, immediately after the still-unfulfilled tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-20:6) of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18. Also, at his second coming, everyone in the church will be resurrected or "changed" into immortal bodies (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7-20:6, Romans 8:23-25), and everyone in the church will be resurrected or "changed" into immortal bodies at the same moment in time (1 Corinthians 15:51-53), at the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52), which won't sound until immediately after the still-unfulfilled tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18.

daq said:

THE "JEWS" OF THE FLESH SEEK A SIGN  ~

People aren't to "require" signs from God which are visible to the physical eye (1 Corinthians 1:22). And if people are requiring such signs out of unbelief (Matthew 12:38-39), then such people won't be shown any such signs upon request, except for one: the sign of the Son of man (Luke 11:29-30) which will appear only at his second coming (Matthew 24:30), which will happen only immediately after the still-unfulfilled tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30) of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18.

But before his second coming, if people aren't out of unbelief requiring signs from God which are visible to the physical eye, then God can choose to perform such signs in their presence (e.g. Acts 2:22, 4:30, 14:3, Romans 15:19, 2 Corinthians 12:12, Hebrews 2:4).

The "sign of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:30) could be the appearance of Jesus Christ himself (Luke 11:29-30) in the sky at his second coming (Matthew 24:30). Before he lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, cf. Acts 1:11-12), he could circle the globe in the sky many times so that everyone will be able to see him with their own eyes, as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27,30b require. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: if Jesus' second coming isn't immediately obvious to everyone at the same time, then it's not really Jesus. Another test is that the bodily resurrection and gathering together (rapture) of the church into the sky have to occur at the second coming of the real Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 20:4-6, Romans 8:23-25).

[Bible2]

daq said:

There is no dilemma for you in your own exegesis because you do not know who we become IN CHRIST.

There is no dilemma for the futurist exegesis, and it does know who we become in Christ.

daq said:

Paul is not speaking as to Jews being the ones having "blindness in part" but rather he speaks of Israel in Romans 11.

Jews and Israel can mean the same thing. That's why Paul can say both that he's a Jew (Acts 22:3) and an Israelite (Romans 11:1).

daq said:

If your understanding were correct it would be a contradiction to Scripture and the very Words of Christ.

The futurist understanding is correct, and is in no way a contradiction to Scripture and the very Words of Christ.

daq said:

John 4:21-22 KJV
21.  Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22.  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Salvation is of genetic Jews (John 4:22b), and the gospel goes to genetic Jews first (Romans 1:16, Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24), because salvation is of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15) made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Genetic Gentile believers are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation of Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16). Also, all believers, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

daq said:

All through Romans it is "Jews and Greeks, Jews and Gentiles" and suddenly in Romans 11 Paul begins speaking of ISRAEL. Do you not find that somewhat perplexing?

In Romans 11, Paul still speaks of both Jews and Gentiles. The Gentiles that Paul is referring to in Romans 11:25 are genetic Gentiles, who are the people Paul is addressing throughout Romans 11:13-31, those people who aren't genetic Jews like Paul shows he is in Romans 11:1,14. Individual genetic Jews are the "natural branches" of their own good, olive tree of Israel, whereas individual genetic Gentiles are branches of a "wild" olive tree which are grafted into the tree of Israel when they become believers (Romans 11:24-25).

daq said:

It is not "the Jews" whom he implies are "blind in part" but rather THE GENTILES...

It's the Jews that Paul expressly shows are "blind in part", for he expressly says that "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25), and "Israel" (Romans 11:1) means "Jews" (Acts 22:3).

daq said:

This is one of the results of the false teachings of the dispensationalist shepherds and their denials of many of the prophecies which are fulfilled by and in Christ Yeshua.

Futurism isn't the same as dispensationalism. Futurism is correct, because the tribulation and second coming prophecies of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6-18 have never been fulfilled. But Dispensationalism is mistaken because it tries to set up a total dichotomy between the church and Israel, whereas the Bible shows that all those in the church who are genetic Jews remain Israel (Romans 11:1), and all those in the church who are genetic Gentiles have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b).

daq said:

It is not Judah or the Jews who were blind in part which Paul speaks of in Romans 11.

It is the Jews. Also, Jews include individuals from tribes of Israel other than Judah. For Paul is truly a Jew (Acts 22:3), and he's of the tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1).

daq said:

How many of the disciples were Jews?

If you mean the apostles in the Gospels, all of them were Jews. If you mean disciples more generally, even the real-early disciples in the book of Acts included both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 6:1).

daq said:

Zechariah 12:7 KJV
7.  The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

Zechariah 12:7 will happen when Zechariah 12:2-14 happens, which will be right before and then at the still-unfulfilled second coming of Jesus Christ (Zechariah 14:2-21).

daq said:

Dispensationalists have it backwards so that they may insist that Yeshua return to fulfill, in the flesh, that which he already refused to do the first time because his Kingdom is not of this world.

Again, futurism isn't the same as dispensationalism.

Regarding John 18:36, it meant that Jesus Christ's future physical reign on the earth, with the resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), won't be of this world in the sense that it won't come by worldly means, such as by the church fighting physically to establish it (cf. 2 Corinthians 10:3-4a, Matthew 26:52, Matthew 5:39). Instead, it will come only by Jesus returning from heaven to establish it (Revelation 19:7-20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Amillennialism wants to have it both ways: on the one hand it wants to say that the millennial kingdom is already here and now on this earth, but then when premillennialism says that the millennial kingdom will be on the earth in the future, amillennialism suddenly wants to use "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36) to say that the millennial kingdom can't possibly be on the earth in the future. Why can the millennial kingdom be on the earth now but not in the future? Also, it should be pointed out that after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), a new earth will be created and God's kingdom will be on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-22:5).

Also, it should be pointed out that Jesus Christ not establishing his physical kingdom at his first coming wasn't a failure, because he was never meant to establish his physical kingdom at his first coming. Instead, he was meant to meekly suffer and die on the Cross for our sins (Isaiah 53), by which work his spiritual kingdom (Romans 14:17) could be established on the earth first. It wasn't a contingency plan, but was always determined that he wouldn't establish his physical kingdom until his second coming (Zechariah 14:3-21, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

[daq]

daq said:

You both speak only for yourselves from a physical perception and interpretation of what is a spiritual Scripture and Word.

The spiritual Scripture and Word can refer to physical matters. Even Jesus Christ's resurrection into immortality was physical, for he wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but was resurrected in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why his tomb was empty (Matthew 28:6) and why he still had the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven, for Jesus remains our fully-human mediator (1 Timothy 2:5); he will remain our fully-human high priest forever (Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like us (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Beware the Gnostic lie that Christ isn't in the flesh, for it will be one of the key deceptions of the coming Antichrist (1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7). The Gnostics mistakenly think that flesh is evil in itself, and that only that which is pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39) and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God himself as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

We know that Adam and Eve were flesh because they were the progenitors of the human race alive today, and we know that Adam and Eve were immortal before they fell into sin because it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. So the future resurrection and changing of the saved into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will simply be God allowing all of saved humanity to partake of the original, very good, immortal flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also beware the more-general Gnostic lie that the created, physical universe is evil in itself and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good, for this lie is employed by Gnosticism to revile the Creator YHWH as some sort of evil, tyrant god, who Gnosticism says created the physical universe only as a foul prison house for the free spirits of humans, who Gnosticism says by some accident fell from a purely-spiritual heaven into the physical universe and became trapped within physical bodies. No doubt the coming Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that the physical world was originally created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14) and that God would ultimately come down out of heaven to live with man forever on a new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8).

And on the new earth all of saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to saved humans, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. All of saved humanity will be able to live in an earthly paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and all their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

daq said:

The house of David ("kings") is confirmed in the "Covenant of the Cup" at the Last Supper.

The Last Supper covenant is the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34), for at the Last Supper, Jesus specifically said: "this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28; see also Mark 14:24 and Luke 22:20). In all three of these references, the original Greek word translated as "new" is "kainos" (G2537), which means just that ("new"). And the original Greek word translated in all three references as "testament" is "diatheke" (G1242), which means "covenant" (Hebrews 12:24). The church is saved only by the New Covenant (1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15, 12:24).

daq said:

The word "kainos" ("new") in regards to the Passover Supper appears ONLY in Luke 22:20...

Not true. The word "kainos" ("new") in regards to (the covenant of) the Passover Supper appears in the original Greek (and so in the KJV) not only in Luke 22:20, but also in Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, and 1 Corinthians 11:25.

In the most reliable and commonly accepted compilation of ancient Greek Texts known as the "GNT-Morph" or Greek New Testament Morph Texts the word "kainos" does not appear in the places where I previously stated that it does not appear. The KJV follows the less reliable "Textus Receptus" copies, (as of modern times there is not even one existing original second hand copy left to be inspected). In addition it is far less likely that anyone "deleted" kainos-new from a manuscript in the places in question and far more likely that the "Textus Receptus" had added to it kainos-new to support a preconceived doctrinal bias. Regardless, the verses were already quoted on the previous page and most all of the other English translations, (except the YGB which also follows the Textus Receptus) have corrected the error of the KJV found in Matt.26:28 and Mrk.14:24.

Matthew 26:28 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
28.  touto gar estin to haimamou tes diathekes to peri pollon ekchunnomenon eisafesin hamartion.

Mark 14:24 TUA
24.  Kai eipen autois, @"Touto estin to haima mou tes diathekes to ekchunnomenon huper pollon.

Luke 22:20 TUA
20.  Kai to poterion hosautos meta todeipnesai, legon, @"Touto to poterion he kaine diatheke en to haimati mou to huper humonekchunnomenon."{*}

However, this really is all besides the point because you are only going to believe what suits your own preconceived eschatology theories. If it were not so then you would post Scripture instead of prefacing and suffixing all of your own words with Scripture passage chapter and verse numbers so as to give yourself the guise of Scripture authority. In so doing you have come to fanciful conclusions such as the idea that 1 John 4:3 says Yeshua is still remaining in the flesh when it says no such thing. It rather states that YESHUA CHRISTOS HAS COME IN THE FLESH.

1 John 4:3 KJV
3.  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4:2-3 RSV
2.  By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3.  and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.

Yet, as already quoted many other times and in many other places, Paul clearly states that according to the flesh: "NOW HENCEFORTH KNOW WE HIM NO MORE."

2 Corinthians 5:16-17 KJV
16.  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17.  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Your theology essentially denies that Christ has come in the flesh because you say that he did not already fulfill the things of the flesh in the first Advent. And again, you say that he must come back in the flesh and rule and reign to complete those things which you deny that he already fulfilled in the flesh body which he offered up once and for all time in our stead. Basically you say that Christ did not finish the job in the first Advent and at the Cross. You ignore all of that and demand a kingdom rule of flesh on earth for a thousand earth-years just like the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes. Now also you warn myself and others to "beware of the Gnostic lie" and that there is nothing wrong with the flesh in your doctrine of the flesh kingdom which you herald to be coming in the name of your king. I suppose you care not what Paul had to say about it, but for the record, he disagrees completely with your statements. And if Paul was a "Gnostic" then me too!

Romans 7:16-21 KJV
16.  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17.  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18.  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19.  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20.  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21.  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Romans 8:13 KJV
13.  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

By your own human reasoning and theology Paul is teaching exactly what you warn myself and others to beware of, stating that it comes from the spirit of antichrist, all the while stating that the flesh is "very good" from the very beginning.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

Who truly is the one breathing out lies here?
Should everyone believe you over the Scripture?
Perhaps you sincerely do not know the answer to that yet ... 

[Bible2]

EdwardGoodie said:

Sorry, Bible2 but your forced exegesis does not wash...

The futurist exegesis isn't forced, and it does wash.

EdwardGoodie said:

You need to read John 19:36 with some discerning eyes:

John 19:36-37 - For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.   
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. 

What you fail to see, because your tradition demands otherwise, is that the inspired author says that these things were done so that the following two Scriptures should be fulfilled.

That isn't seen not because of any man-invented tradition, but because it just isn't there: The inspired author says only that these things were done so that the scripture of Psalms 34:20 was fulfilled (John 19:36). Then he simply shows what the other scripture of Zechariah 12:10 "saith" (John 19:37); he doesn't say or mean that Zechariah 12:10-14 was "fulfilled" at Jesus' crucifixion, because it wasn't. Zechariah 12:10-14 won't be fulfilled until Jesus' second coming (see Zechariah 12:9-14, cf. Zechariah 14:2-21).

As was pointed out earlier, all John 19:37 means is that the pierced places on Jesus' body which will be seen by the Jews who will get saved by grace when they see him at his second coming (Zechariah 12:10-14), were pierced at his crucifixion. Zechariah 13:6 shows that at Jesus' second coming and during the subsequent millennium (which is when all of the still-unfulfilled Zechariah 13:2-6 will be fulfilled), Jesus will have to explain to at least one person (perhaps a very young child) how he got his wounds.

EdwardGoodie said:

The inspired author is very clear on this.  You say Zechariah 12:10 wasn't fulfilled at Calvary.  The inspired author says it was.

He doesn't.

EdwardGoodie said:

If you say that Zechariah 12:10 wasn't fulfilled then you must also say that either Psalm 34:20 or Exodus 12:46 in regard to no bones being broken wasn't fulfilled either.

Futurism doesn't have to say that, because Psalm 34:20 was fulfilled.

EdwardGoodie said:

You cannot exegetically split the two fulfillments - one into the past and one into the future.

There's only one "fulfillment" referred to in John 19:36-37.

EdwardGoodie said:

It is not difficult as to the testimony that should be accepted...

Indeed it isn't.

EdwardGoodie said:

I am gonna go with the inspired author on this one...you will probably stick to your tradition though...

Futurism sticks with the inspired author, not with any man-invented tradition.

EdwardGoodie said:

I suppose you think Matthew 26:31 and Mark 14:27 also do not refer to a fulfillment of Zechariah 13:7???

Matthew 26:31 and Mark 14:27 do refer to the fulfillment of Zechariah 13:7.

EdwardGoodie said:

Folks, isn't it amazing how Scripture is ignored and twisted just to suit a system of theology.

No scripture has been ignored or twisted, because futurism is a scriptural system of eschatology.

EdwardGoodie said:

And this analysis is not specific to preterism at all.  It was long in effect before the system of dispensationalism came along in the mid 1800s and started ignoring the New Testament illumination on the Old Testament Scriptures...

Futurism isn't the same as dispensationalism (see reply #51). Nor does Futurism ignore any New Testament illumination on the Old Testament Scriptures.

EdwardGoodie said:

It would be funny if it wasn't so tremendously sad...

Futurism isn't sad.

[EdwardGoodie]

Say what you will, Bible2, but your exegesis IS FORCED.

Apparently, you have zero concept as to what the two-word phrase "and again" means...

John 19:36-37 - For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.  
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

What you fail to see, because your tradition demands otherwise, is that the inspired author says that these things were done so that those two Scriptures should be fulfilled.

And yes, futurism does NOT accept NT illumination as the only interpretation, easily indicated by the following:

Paul illuminates Isaiah 11:10 in Romans 15:12 in regard to the Gentiles coming into salvation WAY BACK IN THE FIRST CENTURY.

James illuminates Amos 9:11 in Acts 15:16 in regard to the Gentiles coming into salvation WAY BACK IN THE FIRST CENTURY.

Your system of theology believes that Isaiah 11:10 and Amos 9:11 are still in the future.

Here are some more:

Genesis 17:5 <---> Romans 4:17
Exodus 19:5-6 <---> 1 Peter 2:9
Deuteronomy 32:21 <---> Romans 10:19
2 Samuel 22:50 <---> Romans 15:9
Psalm 22:22 <---> Hebrews 2:12
Psalm 68:18 <---> Ephesians 4:7-8
Psalm 118:22-23 <---> Matthew 21:42 • Acts 4:11 • Ephesians 2:20
Isaiah 8:17-18 <---> Hebrews 2:13
Isaiah 29:10 <---> Romans 11:8
Isaiah 54:1 <---> Galatians 4:27
Isaiah 65:1 <---> Romans 10:20
Ezekiel 37:26-27 <---> 2 Corinthians 6:16
Habakkuk 2:4 <---> Romans 1:17
Haggai 2:6 <---> Hebrews 12:26-29

And by no means is this list exhaustive...


I understand how difficult it is to let one's paradigm go even in the face of Scripture that clearly refutes what you believe.

Let it go, Bible2...and you to, Linker.

[Linker]

Give your preterism up Goodie

Bible2 has defeated you hands down .... point by point

The longer you babble preterism the further you reflect a man who has followed another gospel

[EdwardGoodie]

 

That is real funny, Linker.  The proper exegesis as proposed by those inspired individuals is not even preterism.  I had already mentioned such, but since you don't read my posts (and can not learn from them), you would not have been able to see that.

My view, the inspired authors view, and the view of historic Christianity PRIOR TO DISPENSATIONALISM, all agree.

Should I quote you some non-preterists in this matter?

From Barnes Notes:

John 19:37  
Another' scripture - Zec_12:10. We must here be struck with the wonderful providence of God, that so many scriptures were fulfilled in his death. All these things happened without any such design on the part of the men engaged in these scenes; but whatever was done by Jew or Gentile tended to the fulfillment of prophecies long on record, and with which the Jews themselves ought to have been familiar. Little did they suppose, when delivering him to Pilate when he was mocked when they parted his garments when they pierced him - that they were fulfilling ancient predictions. But in this way God had so ordered it that the firmest foundation should be laid for the belief that he was the true Messiah, and that the designs of wicked men should all be overruled to the fulfillment of the great plans which God had in sending his Son.

From Adam Clark:

Zechariah 12:10  
I will pour upon the house of David - This is the way in which the Jews themselves shall be brought into the Christian Church.
1.   "They shall have the spirit of grace,

[thethinker]

Linker wrote:

This is a future event and has never take place in the past:


Zechariah
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Revelation
1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Linker,

You gravely err my friend.

First, John 19 CLEARLY says that Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled when the Savior was hanging on the cross. Your view is to be repudiated.

Second, the reference to "every eye" is restricted to those who pierced Him. In many instances the Greek "kai" is translated "that is" in the New Testament including the Revelation.

It may be read thus,

Every eye shall see Him, THAT IS, they who pierced Him....

Third, the word "also" is not in the oldest manuscripts. It does NOT say that every eye shall see Him and also those who pierced Him. It reads, "every eye shall see Him, that is, those who pierced Him...."

Fourth, the Greek "psulai" (kindreds) should be translated "tribes." It is talking about the tribes of Israel.

Fifth, the word "earth" is not preferable. The Greek "ges" means "land" and should be translated "land" unless the context requires otherwise.


YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION HAS THE CORRECT READING.

7Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even [that is] those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

Revelation 1:7 is teaching that every eye of those who pierced Him shall see Him of all the tribes [of Israel] in the land. Revelation 1:7 is past and it had nothing to do with Zechariah 12:10. The subjects are not the same. Zechariah 12:10 is about salvation and Revelation 1:7 is about the impending judgment uponn Israel. The former was fulfilled at the cross and the latter was fulfilled in ad70.

You must be more earnest in doing your homework. Keep in mind that nearly all Preterists are former Futurists and Dispensationalists. We all came to Preterism after a long journey of struggling with the issues so we are quite prepared for anything you've got. EdwardGoodie has mentioned that he was a former Dispensationalist. I graduated from two Dispensationalist Bible Schools. It took me 20 years of struggling with the issues to come to Preterism.

All you are doing is regurgitating what you have been taught. You show that you have not struggled with the issues nor are you willing to learn.

thinker

[Bible2]

daq said:

In the most reliable and commonly accepted compilation of ancient Greek Texts known as the "GNT-Morph" or Greek New Testament Morph Texts the word "kainos" does not appear in the places where I previously stated that it does not appear. The KJV follows the less reliable "Textus Receptus" copies, (as of modern times there is not even one existing original second hand copy left to be inspected).

It has never been proven that the Textus Receptus is less reliable than any other text, or that it isn't the most reliable text of all.

daq said:

In addition it is far less likely that anyone "deleted" kainos-new from a manuscript in the places in question and far more likely that the "Textus Receptus" had added to it kainos-new to support a preconceived doctrinal bias.

It's the other way around. A scribe copying a manuscript is much more likely to skip over words than to add new words that aren't even there. One of the key old manuscripts that the NIV, for example, is based on, was found in an old trash heap in a monastery on Mt. Sinai. No doubt it had been thrown into the trash because it was a such a faulty copy (e.g. because it skipped over too many words, and even skipped over whole verses and whole passages). And yet modern "scholars" still try to claim the opposite: that a manuscript thrown into the trash must be one of the "most reliable" of all.

Also, just as there's no preconceived doctrinal bias in acknowledging that Luke 22:20 explicitly says that the covenant of the Last Supper is the "New" Covenant, so there's no preconceived doctrinal bias in acknowledging that the parallel verses of Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, and 1 Corinthians 11:25 (cf. also 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15, and Hebrews 12:24) also explicitly say that the covenant of the Last Supper is the "New" Covenant. But a preconceived doctrinal bias would want to try to deny that the New Covenant in Luke 22:20 (and its parallel verses) is the New Covenant.

daq said:

Regardless, the verses were already quoted on the previous page and most all of the other English translations, (except the YGB which also follows the Textus Receptus) have corrected the error of the KJV found in Matt.26:28 and Mrk.14:24.

There's no error in the KJV in Matthew 26:28 or Mark 14:24, just as there's no error in the KJV in Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15, or Hebrews 12:24.

daq said:

However, this really is all besides the point because you are only going to believe what suits your own preconceived eschatology theories.

Futurism isn't based on preconceived eschatological theories, but on what the scriptures themselves show.

daq said:

If it were not so then you would post Scripture instead of prefacing and suffixing all of your own words with Scripture passage chapter and verse numbers so as to give yourself the guise of Scripture authority.

Being careful to give scripture references isn't a "guise", nor is it in any way thinking more highly of the doctrinal statements preceding the references than the referenced scriptures themselves. For the whole reason that scripture references have been carefully placed after doctrinal statements is precisely because we must never be saying, in effect, "What I'm saying is true because I'm saying it", but must always be saying, in effect, "What I'm saying is true because it's what God's Word teaches" (cf. Acts 17:11).

Quotations aren't needed when we already agree on what the Bible says. The point of the discussion is to get at what the Bible means. That's why verses haven't just been referenced, but referenced in connection with statements regarding what those verses mean. To make someone take the time to read long lists of quotations imbedded in a post could make him or her forget (or never take the time to get to) the points that were made in the post regarding what those quotations mean.

Also, just giving references allows the reader to more easily move past any statements which he already agrees with, and focus on any subsequent statements which he may have a problem with, instead of him having to search through long lists of quotations to find the next statement by the poster and see if he agrees with it or not. This saves the reader a lot of time.

Also, just giving references allows the reader to keep different posts as summary reference guides to the proof texts of positions he agrees with or disagrees with, instead of him having to keep (for reference) posts with such long lists of quotations that they're like mini-Bibles in themselves. We all already have complete Bibles, what do we need with mini-Bibles?

Also, all Christians, whether old or young (2 Timothy 3:15), should be diligent in actually reading every word of the Bible (Mathew 4:4, 2 Timothy 3:16) for themselves (2 Timothy 3:15), in a good translation or in its original languages (from a good manuscript, not a trash-heap manuscript). Christians must never trust what anyone says about the Bible, even if he's claiming to be giving quotations of it; everything said and quoted must always be checked by actually searching the Bible for themselves (Acts 17:11), in a good translation or in its original languages (from a good manuscript), in order to avoid being deceived by an incorrect interpretation or translation (or a trash-heap manuscript).

Also, it takes almost no time at all to search references in a good translation, for Bible Gateway provides instant quotations of the KJV (a good translation, from a good manuscript) even for long lists of scripture references; they don't have to be looked up one at a time.

daq said:

In so doing you have come to fanciful conclusions such as the idea that 1 John 4:3 says Yeshua is still remaining in the flesh when it says no such thing. It rather states that YESHUA CHRISTOS HAS COME IN THE FLESH.

Jesus is still in the flesh, for the reasons given in reply #47.

daq said:

Paul clearly states that according to the flesh: "NOW HENCEFORTH KNOW WE HIM NO MORE."

2 Corinthians 5:16's "after the flesh" isn't literal, but is a figurative reference to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2-3, Romans 7:5-6), as opposed to the spiritual ministration of the New Covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-18). For Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit (See reply #47).

daq said:

Your theology essentially denies that Christ has come in the flesh because you say that he did not already fulfill the things of the flesh in the first Advent.

Futurism in no way denies that Christ has come in the flesh. Christ fulfilled very important things in the flesh at his first coming (Isaiah 53; Psalms 16:10, cf. Acts 2:31, Luke 24:39), by which things (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) his spiritual kingdom (Romans 14:17) could be established on the earth first  But it was always determined that he wouldn't fulfill the establishment of his physical kingdom on the earth until his second coming (Zechariah 14:3-21, Revelation 19:7-20:6). Also, just as he is already fulfilling now, so he must eternally fulfill his role as our fully-human mediator (1 Timothy 2:5); he must eternally remain our fully-human high priest (Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like us (Hebrews 2:17).

daq said:

I suppose you care not what Paul had to say about it, but for the record, he disagrees completely with your statements.

He doesn't.

daq said:

And if Paul was a "Gnostic" then me too!

Romans 7:16-21 KJV
16.  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17.  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18.  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19.  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20.  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21.  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Romans 8:13 KJV
13.  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

By your own human reasoning and theology Paul is teaching exactly what you warn myself and others to beware of, stating that it comes from the spirit of antichrist, all the while stating that the flesh is "very good" from the very beginning.

Paul isn't a Gnostic. He uses "flesh" in Romans 7:18, 8:13 in the sense of our fallen, sin nature, not in the sense of our actual, physical flesh. For otherwise, in Romans 8:8, for example, he would be saying that Christ cannot please God the Father, because Christ is in actual, physical flesh (1 John 4:3). But, of course, Christ does please God the Father (Matthew 3:17).

Christ proves that actual, physical flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made actual, physical flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39) and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that actual, physical flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God himself as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

daq said:

Who truly is the one breathing out lies here?

Anyone who is contradicting the scriptures.

daq said:

Should everyone believe you over the Scripture?

Nothing which has been presented has contradicted the Scripture.

daq said:

Perhaps you sincerely do not know the answer to that yet ... 

The answer is known.

[Bible2]

EdwardGoodie said:

Say what you will, Bible2, but your exegesis IS FORCED.

It isn't.

EdwardGoodie said:

Apparently, you have zero concept as to what the two-word phrase "and again" means...

Not true.

EdwardGoodie said:

John 19:36-37 - For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.  
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

What you fail to see, because your tradition demands otherwise, is that the inspired author says that these things were done so that those two Scriptures should be fulfilled.

That isn't seen not because of any man-invented tradition, but because John just doesn't say that. In John 19:36, John says only that these things were done so that Psalms 34:20 was fulfilled. And in John 19:37, when John says "And again another scripture saith", all he means is "And I'm also going to quote what another scripture says", after he had just quoted Psalms 34:20 in John 19:36b. John doesn't say or mean that Zechariah 12:10-14 was "fulfilled" at Jesus' crucifixion, because it wasn't. Zechariah 12:10-14 won't be fulfilled until Jesus' second coming (see Zechariah 12:9-14, cf. Zechariah 14:2-21).

As was pointed out earlier, all John 19:37 means is that the pierced places on Jesus' body which will be seen by the Jews who will get saved by grace when they see him at his second coming (Zechariah 12:10-14), were pierced at his crucifixion. Zechariah 13:6 shows that at Jesus' second coming and during the subsequent millennium (which is when all of the still-unfulfilled Zechariah 13:2-6 will be fulfilled), Jesus will have to explain to at least one person (perhaps a very young child) how he got his wounds.

EdwardGoodie said:

And yes, futurism does NOT accept NT illumination as the only interpretation, easily indicated by the following:

Paul illuminates Isaiah 11:10 in Romans 15:12 in regard to the Gentiles coming into salvation WAY BACK IN THE FIRST CENTURY.

Futurism does accept NT illumination. Romans 15:12 quotes Isaiah 11:10 to illuminate the general principle that God had always intended to save Gentiles (Romans 15:9a) as well as Jews (Romans 15:8). Romans 15:12 doesn't say or mean that the specific time of Isaiah 11:10 has been fulfilled, because it won't be fulfilled until Isaiah 11:6-16 is fulfilled, which will be during the coming millennium, which won't occur until after the second coming of Jesus (Revelation 19:7-20:6).

EdwardGoodie said:

James illuminates Amos 9:11 in Acts 15:16 in regard to the Gentiles coming into salvation WAY BACK IN THE FIRST CENTURY.

Acts 15:14-17 doesn't say or mean that Amos 9:11-12 is "fulfilled", only that the basic principle of the salvation of Gentiles "agrees" with the idea of Amos 9:11-12, and only as it was understood by the (fallible) individual quoted in Acts 15:14-17. A different way of understanding Amos 9:11-12 is by looking at the original Hebrew: Amos 9:11-12 can mean that the house of David will be restored to power (Amos 9:11) and will possess Edom and all other nations (Amos 9:12). This will be fulfilled during the coming millennium, which won't occur until after the second coming of Jesus (Revelation 19:7-20:6), who is of the house of David (Luke 1:69, Matthew 1:1), when he will restore it to power by sitting himself upon the throne of David (Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:7, Isaiah 16:5). He will then rule the entire earth (Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11), and all nations will be forced to come up annually to worship him in the earthly Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16-19) if they don't seek him willingly (Zechariah 8:22).

EdwardGoodie said:

Your system of theology believes that Isaiah 11:10 and Amos 9:11 are still in the future.

It's the scriptures themselves which show that to be the case.

EdwardGoodie said:

Here are some more:

Genesis 17:5 <---> Romans 4:17

Yes, Genesis 17:5 has been fulfilled (Romans 4:16b-17).

EdwardGoodie said:

Exodus 19:5-6 <---> 1 Peter 2:9

Yes, 1 Peter 2:9-10 is addressing the church as Israel, for it's quoting from Exodus 19:5b-6 and Hosea 2:23, which refer to Israel.

EdwardGoodie said:

Deuteronomy 32:21 <---> Romans 10:19

Yes. Unbelieving genetic Jews should be provoked to jealousy by God saving genetic Gentiles.

EdwardGoodie said:

2 Samuel 22:50 <---> Romans 15:9
Psalm 22:22 <---> Hebrews 2:12
Psalm 68:18 <---> Ephesians 4:7-8
Psalm 118:22-23 <---> Matthew 21:42 • Acts 4:11 • Ephesians 2:20

Yes.

EdwardGoodie said:

Isaiah 8:17-18 <---> Hebrews 2:13

Did you mean Isaiah 8:18a and Hebrews 2:13b? If so, Hebrews 2:13b quotes Isaiah 8:18a to illuminate the general principle that saved people are like children given to their Savior Jesus. Hebrews 2:13b doesn't say or mean that the specific time of Isaiah 8:18 has been fulfilled, because Mount Zion is currently still spiritually "desolate" (Matthew 23:38) (meaning that God isn't dwelling there, as he will at the time of Isaiah 8:18), and will remain so until Jesus' second coming (Matthew 23:39, Micah 4:1-4).

EdwardGoodie said:

Isaiah 29:10 <---> Romans 11:8
Isaiah 54:1 <---> Galatians 4:27
Isaiah 65:1 <---> Romans 10:20

Yes.

EdwardGoodie said:

Ezekiel 37:26-27 <---> 2 Corinthians 6:16

2 Corinthians 6:16b is referring to Leviticus 26:11a,12, not Ezekiel 37:26-27, for "walk in them" (2 Corinthians 6:16b) isn't in Ezekiel 37:26-27.

EdwardGoodie said:

Habakkuk 2:4 <---> Romans 1:17

Yes.

EdwardGoodie said:

Haggai 2:6 <---> Hebrews 12:26-29

Hebrews 12:26-29 doesn't say or mean that Haggai 2:6 has happened yet. In Haggai 2:6-7, the desire of all nations (cf. Revelation 5:9), who shall come right after the shaking of heaven (Matthew 24:29b) and earth (Revelation 16:18,20) and all nations (Revelation 16:19), is Jesus Christ, at his second coming, immediately after the still-unfulfilled tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2-20:6) of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18.

EdwardGoodie said:

And by no means is this list exhaustive...


I understand how difficult it is to let one's paradigm go even in the face of Scripture that clearly refutes what you believe.

Nothing on the list, and no other scripture, contradicts Futurism. For Futurism doesn't claim that no scripture has been fulfilled, only that the tribulation, second coming, millennium, and subsequent events, which are shown in detail in Revelation chapters 6-21, haven't been fulfilled.

EdwardGoodie said:

Let it go, Bible2...and you to, Linker.

Futurists won't let unfulfilled scriptures go, or any other scriptures for that matter.

[Linker]

"Futurists won't let unfulfilled scriptures go, or any other scriptures for that matter"


No question about this .... no genuine follower of Jesus Christ lets go of the truth

..... and He is coming again to immortalize His church and then He is going to being His judgment and wrath against those who refuse to believe the truth about Him

It is the preterist who denies this biblical fact and there is something very wrong with the behavior of those who scoff at the Lord's intents

[thethinker]

EdwardGoodie said:

EdwardGoodie said:

John 19:36-37 - For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

What you fail to see, because your tradition demands otherwise, is that the inspired author says that these things were done so that those two Scriptures should be fulfilled.

Bible2 replied:

That isn't seen not because of any man-invented tradition, but because John just doesn't say that. In John 19:36, John says only that these things were done so that Psalms 34:20 was fulfilled. And in John 19:37, when John says "And again another scripture saith", all he means is "And I'm also going to quote what another scripture says", after he had just quoted Psalms 34:20 in John 19:36b. John doesn't say or mean that Zechariah 12:10-14 was "fulfilled" at Jesus' crucifixion, because it wasn't. Zechariah 12:10-14 won't be fulfilled until Jesus' second coming (see Zechariah 12:9-14, cf. Zechariah 14:2-21).

The quote in blue bold by Bible2 is a a load of you know what! The inspired apostle CLEARLY said that "these THINGS" (plural) were "DONE" citing both Psalm 34:20 and Zechariah 12:10.

John used the plural "these things" and said that they were "DONE" citing the two scriptures showing what "things" he was talking about.

This is scripture twisting at its worst! Bible2 should sue his Bible teachers!

thinker

[Linker]

"The quote in blue bold by Bible2 is a a load of you know what!"

One thing, among others, that always defines a preterist on a message board is the tendency to rail and use fowl language [it is obvious what thinker means above] when they get backed into a corner ..... as if some how their demeanor and conjured up aggression will win the argument

This reveals much about the walk of those who scoff at the Lord's more sure word of prophecy

The trick used in thinker's ploy is to take Zechariah 12:2 and Revelation 1:7 out of context and to subject the balance of related scripture by selective allegory .... or just by sweeping it under the rug hoping that no one will see it

[EdwardGoodie]

EdwardGoodie said:

And yes, futurism does NOT accept NT illumination as the only interpretation, easily indicated by the following:

Paul illuminates Isaiah 11:10 in Romans 15:12 in regard to the Gentiles coming into salvation WAY BACK IN THE FIRST CENTURY.

Futurism does accept NT illumination. Romans 15:12 quotes Isaiah 11:10 to illuminate the general principle that God had always intended to save Gentiles (Romans 15:9a) as well as Jews (Romans 15:8). Romans 15:12 doesn't say or mean that the specific time of Isaiah 11:10 has been fulfilled, because it won't be fulfilled until Isaiah 11:6-16 is fulfilled, which will be during the coming millennium, which won't occur until after the second coming of Jesus (Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Yes, yes, we are all aware of what position your system adheres to.  All you have done is to cough up your system's view of these things.

May I ask where in Isaiah 11:6 ff it mentions the millennium?  The only place is in your system.  It isn't there in Isaiah 11...

You think it's there because you adhere to a overly wooden literalism.  For you, those are real animals in Isaiah 11:6-9.  For you, you believe animals became tainted by sin.  You also believe that the planet Earth was also tainted by sin too.  This is the foundation for gnosticism, folks - the physical is bad...

You also believe that in the Lord's 2nd coming, all the animals will be "fixed."

ABSOLUTELY NO CONSIDERATION IS GIVEN TO UNDERSTANDING HOW SCRIPTURE EXPLAINS THESE TYPES OF THINGS!  For you, they are real animals.  End of study (actually what study?)

No thought whatsoever is given to the idea that there are clean and unclean animals listed in that famous Isaiah 11:6-9 passage, no thought whatsoever.

If you actually spent some time in the OT (and the new) you would realize that the Jews thought themselves to be clean.  Gentiles were unclean.

Perhaps you are familiar with Peter's vision in Acts 10, and perhaps not.  It would seem to be the latter.

Acts 10:11-15 - And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:  
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.  
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.  
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.  
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.  

To adhere to the same hermeneutic standard, you would also believe that these should be real animals, insects and birds, right?  But I don't think you do and that is because you have two (or more) hermeneutic standards.  That is very inconsistent!

To solve the riddle of Peter's vision we only need to refer to Scripture (not a theological system to cough up their misunderstandings)...

Acts 10:28 - And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.  

And if you were to study a little bit further, you would realize that "eat" is often interchangeable with "fellowship" or "association."

Isaiah 11:6-9 is nothing more than common Hebrew idioms and symbolic language.  But because you refuse to accept it as clean (Jews) and unclean (Gentiles) and insist upon a wooden literalism that ignores the common literary style of the Bible, you cannot accept Romans 15:12 as the present fulfillment of Jews and Gentiles being gathered into the church.

You seem to totally ignore the fact that the 30AD to 70AD time frame was a transition period to gather the old covenant remnant into the new covenant in Christ.  And yes, because Israel's promises were fulfilled (and ONLY because they were fulfilled) we as non-covenant beings, get to enter the new covenant through Christ as well...

Most of the other jibber jabber presented in refutation is along the same kind of lines - basic assertions from your own system - no clear explanation from Scripture and a total lack of understanding regarding Hebrew metaphors.

So, I ask you again, where is the millennium mentioned in Isaiah 11:6-19?

Have a great day.  If you don't get it by now, you likely may never get it...get your explanations and definitions from Scripture, man.  The number 1,000 indicates fullness/completion...Does God not own the cattle on hill #1001???

Some people, who are not willing to invest the time in studying the actual Scriptures to get the definitions and understandings, refer to these understandings as "selective allegory."  Maybe one day, they will actually sit down and study the Scriptures to see whether these things are so.  I get my definitions and explanations from Scriptures and I use Scriptures to show the explanations.  I insert nothing.  You folks insert millennium wherever you see fit.  IT AIN'T IN ISAIAH!  If it was, you would show it to me, but I know you won't because it ain't there, folks!

And while I am at it, the only place you will find any mention of an antichrist is in 1 John and 2 John.  It you were to take inspiration's account of the description given to these antichrists, you would dump your system's explanation real quick...but I don't suppose that is going to happen either.

[thethinker]

EdwardGoodie wrote:

You think it's there because you adhere to a overly wooden literalism.  For you, those are real animals in Isaiah 11:6-9.  For you, you believe animals became tainted by sin.  You also believe that the planet Earth was also tainted by sin too.  This is the foundation for gnosticism, folks - the physical is bad...

EdwardGoodie,

You're really on a roll my man! Isaiah said that the lion shall lie with the calf (11:6). But 35:9 says that there shall be NO LION there. If the futurist's literal method is correct, then we have a blatant contradiction in the scripture for the literal lion cannot both be there and not be there.


Then there is the problem in 30:6. It says that the lion shall carry his riches on the back of the donkey. Okay futurist go ahead and say it. Go ahead and say that literal lions will use donkeys to carry their riches.

The animal metaphors in prophecy is beautiful poetry for the conversion of the gentiles as you have correctly noted. The futurists take the beautiful and the poetic and make it the absurd.

thinker

[thethinker]

"The quote in blue bold by Bible2 is a a load of you know what!"

One thing, among others, that always derfines a preterist on a message board is the tendency to rail and use fowl language [it is obvious what thinker means above] when they get backed into a corner ..... as if some how their demeanor and conjured up aggression will win the argument

This reveals much about the walk of those who scoff at the Lord's more sure word of prophecy

The trick used in thinker's ploy is to take Zechariah 12:2 and Revelation 1:7 out of context and to subject the balance of related scripture by selective allegory .... or just by sweeping it under the rug hoping that no one will see it

More typical futurist FALSE accusation. I was NOT mocking God's word of prophecy. I was mocking Bible2's handling of it. You know that's what I was doing. He BLATANTLY TWISTED the words of the inspired apostle.

You say that God's word of prophecy is "sure" and you are correct. Yet you don't accept the threats contained in them as "sure" do you? God told Israel that if he planted a kingdom and that the people obeyed, he would keep the good word He spoke to them. But if they disobeyed He would "REPENT" of the word He promised (Jeremiah 18:6-10).

Why is it that the futurist believe that the promises are "sure" but not the threats?

thinker

[Linker]

Here is a threat of the Lord's which may be intended for you thinker .... do you believe it?

..... or would you say ....   na, all in the past, already happened

Psalms
2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Revelation
6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

[daq]

Here is a threat of the Lord's which may be intended for you thinker .... do you believe it?

..... or would you say ....   na, all in the past, already happened

Psalms
2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Revelation
6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Oh my ... Looks like another "historical hobgoblin" came along before you and stole another one of your seven thunders!!!!!!!  

Acts 4:23-30 KJV
23.  And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
24.  And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25.  Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26.  The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27.  For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28.  For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29.  And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30.  By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

[daq]

The "heathen"-Gentile-nations of Acts 4:25 are not flesh but SPIRIT ~

Deuteronomy 1:3-4 KJV
3.  And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the Lord had given him in commandment unto them;
4.  After he had slain Sihon the king of the Amorites, which dwelt in Heshbon, and Og the king of Bashan, which dwelt at Ashtaroth in Edrei:

Deuteronomy 3:8-13 KJV
8.  And we took at that time out of the hand of the two kings of the Amorites the land that was on this side Jordan, from the river of Arnon unto mount Hermon;
9.  (Which Hermon the Sidonians call Sirion; and the Amorites call it Shenir;)
10.  All the cities of the plain, and all Gilead, and all Bashan, unto Salchah and Edrei, cities of the kingdom of Og in Bashan.
11.  For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.
12.  And this land, which we possessed at that time, from Aroer, which is by the river Arnon, and half mount Gilead, and the cities thereof, gave I unto the Reubenites and to the Gadites.
13.  And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants.

And Psalm 22 proves it ...

Psalms 22:12-18 KJV
12.  Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13.  They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14.  I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15.  My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16.  For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17.  I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18.  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Acts 4:25-27
25.  Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26.  The kings of the earth stood up, and the Archons were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27.  For of a truth against thy holy servant-child Yeshua, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together.

Ya'll need duh be start'in over ...

Re: The fulness of the Gentiles (Romans 11:25)
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2011, 10:50:40 PM »

[EdwardGoodie]

Listen to the following discourse by the apostle Paul.  Notice the multiple quotations of the Old Testament.  Understand that it was Paul's present hope that Israel could be saved.  The Gospel was their saving hope.  Many had already been saved...

Romans 9:27-33 - Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:  
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.  
29 And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.      
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.  
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.  
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;  
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.  

Romans 10:1-21 - Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.  
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.  
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.  
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.  
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.  
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)  
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)  
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;  
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.  
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.      
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.  
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?  
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!  
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?  
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.  
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.  
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.  
20 But Isaiah  is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.  
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.  

Can you not see how Paul's heart is yearning that his people would repent and return unto the Lord.  Several thousand had been saved but it was not enough as far as Paul was concerned.  Did he not say that he wished himself accursed?

Romans 9:3-8 - For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:  
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;  
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.  
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:  
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.  
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.  

Did you notice the "according to the flesh" from verse 3?  It is not talking about human tissue, folks...that is, of course, unless you believe Paul's kinsmen were some weird type of space alien.  It is talking about people from the old covenant body.

And notice especially verses 6 thru 8.  Paul is emphatic that the old covenant Israelites are not the ones who will receive the promise - yet many people on this forum believe the group of people living in the Middle East will be the ones who eventually receive the promise.  I'm gonna go with the inspired guy, thanks.  Galatians 4 adds to this position:

Galatians 4:21-31 - Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?  
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.  
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.  
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.  
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is [1st century Jerusalem], and is in bondage with her children.  
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.  
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.  
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.  
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now [the 1st century now].  
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.  
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.  


There is so much in this last passage:

1.  The 2 covenants =(Old covenant people - bondage) (new covenant people - free)
2.  The 2 Jerusalems expressed as COVENANTS, not literal physical cities. (vs 25 & 26)
3.  Old covenant people persecuted the new covenant people (vs 29)

And my personal favorite:

4.  The Scripture says to cast out the bondwoman, not give them a kingdom sometime in the future!!! (verse 30)

I apologize for all the Scripture.  I know you are not used to getting your explanations from them.  It is much easier to believe the fella who tells you what to believe...