The Trinity

[Insight]

Off topic for a moment.

Would you happen to know if and when Reftags is coming back?  Copy and pasting verses is a highly ineffective use of time, especially knowing free technology is available which is easy to use and just bolts on.

I recall everyone expressed their joy at first.

Insight

[LightHammer]

Yes.

I agree the Father and Son shared a single mind (Logos) and purpose though their roles where clearly different.

God exhaled His Word, breathing out, while Jesus inhaled the Word for life, wisdom and understanding.

The Spirit of the LORD (Yahweh) will rest on him (Jesus) the Spirit (ruwach) of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit (ruwach) of counsel and of might, the Spirit (ruwach) of the knowledge and fear of the LORD Isa 11:1


The source of the Word therefore is Yahweh alone and it is our calling inclusive of the firstborn to inhale the breathed out Word.

Spoken like a true Trinitarian. The Father is most certainly the source of the Word. The Word is begotten and has His origin (orc'a) in the Father.

Now to seal it in.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word has its origin from the Father but the Word is God. Behold the mystery of the Trinity.

Can you support your concept of mystical body with a Bible verse?   Your use of "Church

[LightHammer]

Off topic for a moment.

Would you happen to know if and when Reftags is coming back?  Copy and pasting verses is a highly ineffective use of time, especially knowing free technology is available which is easy to use and just bolts on.

I recall everyone expressed their joy at first.

Insight

We just recently upgraded to a new server. Once this server has demonstrated that it is able to handle the popularity of the site Admin will make adjustments at his discretion.

I am not entirely sure when that will be because Admin is the one who knows the server best. The Mod Team will keep everyone apprised with regards to any new developments. 

[Insight]

Spoken like a true Trinitarian. The Father is most certainly the source of the Word. The Word is begotten and has His origin (orc'a) in the Father.

Nice try Lighthammer.

I must admit I am enjoying our good-natured discussion.  The odd doctrinal jab here and there, like the above, but nothing unpleasant yet.

Your comment acknowledging God as being the sole source of the Word is truth, however you cannot apply its source to Jesus Christ.

God (Single Person) is the Eternal Spirit and His Wisdom is the Word of God (Logos) of John 1.  It was with God and it was God, for God is the eternal embodiment of power and wisdom, and power and wisdom are His essential characteristics.

From the Word is and was the Divine Expression of Jesus Christ and by that same Word was he begotten (born of a woman) and given life for the first time.  He shared the qualities of his mother Mary being of the line of David and Abraham but also, uniquely, he has a Heavenly Father.  

A problem TB (Trinitarian Believers) face, is while this same Word caused the conception of Jesus Christ, giving him life in the womb of a woman, it was God who placed in Jesus the centre of His whole purpose as per John 1:1:10,14, these all satisfy the requirements of God working His Logos in the Son, however, it does not prove his pre-existence.

So while All things are made by the Spirit-Word, or Spirit-Wisdom, of Yahweh.  John tells us very clearly that this Spirit-Word was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ (John 1:14).

Jesus Christ became (grew in wisdom and statue, in favour with God and man....) the embodiment and manifestation of the Word of God. So we see the Scriptures continually express this Word or "Purpose

[LightHammer]

Nice try Lighthammer.

I must admit I am enjoying our good-natured discussion.  The odd doctrinal jab here and there, like the above, but nothing unpleasant yet.

We are having a pretty awesome dialogue aren't we. It's actually pretty ironic that my dialogue with an Arian is more civil than some of my dialogues with Protestants.

Go figure.

Your comment acknowledging God as being the sole source of the Word is truth, however you cannot apply its source to Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the Word so of course I do not apply His origin to Himself. His origin comes from the Father, that is not a means of saying He was created or that there was a time where He was not.

The Son was begotten from the Father like brilliance follows light.  Like radiance follows the sun.

Does not radiance and brilliance come into affect the moment light shines? So if the God is the Father eternally, the eternal light, is not the Son, His Word, His radiance co eternal with its source?

God (Single Person) is the Eternal Spirit and His Wisdom is the Word of God (Logos) of John 1.  It was with God and it was God, for God is the eternal embodiment of power and wisdom, and power and wisdom are His essential characteristics.

You have confessed a tenet of the Trinity my friend.

You have separated persona from persona (Father from Word) without stepping outside of the realm of the Godhead. Read your own words again and acknowledge the mystery of the Trinity.

From the Word is and was the Divine Expression of Jesus Christ and by that same Word was he begotten (born of a woman) and given life for the first time.  He shared the qualities of his mother Mary being of the line of David and Abraham but also, uniquely, he has a Heavenly Father. 

Come on now my friend. The above statement is scripturally untenable.

John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


The Word is not the expression of Jesus. Jesus is the Word. Here we see how the Word was manifested in flesh i.e. the Incarnation. However Jesus Christ was indeed the the Word in flesh. This only further proves eternal existence of the Son.

A problem TB (Trinitarian Believers) face, is while this same Word caused the conception of Jesus Christ, giving him life in the womb of a woman, it was God who placed in Jesus the centre of His whole purpose as per John 1:1:10,14, these all satisfy the requirements of God working His Logos in the Son, however, it does not prove his pre-existence.

His Son is the Logos. You are separating the two when the are eternally one person.

So while All things are made by the Spirit-Word, or Spirit-Wisdom, of Yahweh.  John tells us very clearly that this Spirit-Word was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ (John 1:14).

And thus affirms what the Trinity proclaims. Jesus Christ is the eternal Word in flesh. The eternal Word is God. The Word is not the Father. Different personas.

•   Christ Jesus was born a man in Bethlehem.

Yes the Word was made flesh through a virgin birth but that is not the beginning of the Word which is so clearly called God.

•    The Spirit-Word manifested in and through Jesus was eternally with God.

Another affirmation of the Trinity. Jesus is the Word eternally with God.

•   That is God, not the three-in- one or one in three God, but the One True God of the Bible.

That's not even the Trinity.

The Trinity is three of One not three in One. The latter is Hinduism not Christianity.

•   He is called His Son, the man Christ Jesus.

Yes the one who created all things.

Colossians 1:16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (Revelation 3:14)

Of course Christ is the beginning of God's creation. He was the firstborn of God.

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Its important you understand Jesus is a part of the "creation of God" – and therefore cannot be part of the eternal, UNCREATED ONE GOD whose name is Yahweh.

Insight you have already affirmed the Trinitarian view.

The Word is eternal alongside God and is God's image. Jesus is that Word made flesh, no separation.


The Word is begotten from the Father like radiance is begotten of light. Such take immediate effect from each other.

This admission is of great concern for those reading. Eph 1:9

I am naked before the mystery of the Trinity. Never fully understanding but knowing it enough to know it is a reality.

Of course we need to ask who gave him power? 

Again we come back to an Eternal Uncreated All Powerful God who is the sole source of Power, Wisdom, Light and Love.

Would you mind if I took you to an obscure verse to demonstrate this point.

For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. (Luke 7:8)

What did the Roman Centurion!! Understand about Jesus that you are yet to appreciate?

This man understood that Jesus had persons "ranked under his authority

[Insight]

Jesus is the Word so of course I do not apply His origin to Himself. His origin comes from the Father, that is not a means of saying He was created or that there was a time where He was not.

The Son was begotten from the Father like brilliance follows light.  Like radiance follows the sun.

Does not radiance and brilliance come into effect the moment light shines? So if the God is the Father eternally, the eternal light, is not the Son, His Word, His radiance co eternal with its source?

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G541&t=KJV

We are called to be light-bearers though we are a poor at reflecting Gods brightness, one aspect of Heb 1:3 challenges your reasoning.

As you will see the word "apaugasma" which is only mentioned once in the NT implies "intense brightness

[LightHammer]

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G541&t=KJV

We are called to be light-bearers though we are a poor at reflecting Gods brightness, one aspect of Heb 1:3 challenges your reasoning.

As you will see the word "apaugasma" which is only mentioned once in the NT implies "intense brightness

[Insight]

Use this exegesis Insight. Follow the statements of facts. Jesus Christ is the brightness, radiance and glory of the Father. To suggest that there was a time that Jesus was not is to indirectly claim there was a time that the Father was left, void of radiance and without His glory.

Jesus being the firstfruits of them that sleep, or the firstborn of the dead, denies your above reasoning.  Lighthammer and Insight could be numbered with the firstfruits/firstborn and therefore we he appears, we shall be like him, that is like Jesus.  

To imply the Father is without Glory is foolishness on your part.

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to "receive

[Insight]

Lighthammer I posted this elsewhere today and thought it summed up nicely the challenge of bringing Jesus and God together in sharing one nature.

"He humbled himself, and became OBEDIENT unto death, even the death of the cross, WHEREFORE God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name" (Phil. 2:8-9).

This thread has been interesting to gauge the level of response and watch those who hold these false teaching wrestle with its doctrine in the Word.  I capitalised "obedient

[LightHammer]

Jesus being the firstfruits of them that sleep, or the firstborn of the dead, denies your above reasoning.

How? God can be all these things and still be God. Calling God, a King doesn't negate or disprove where He is called Light.

Come now. Is that all?

To imply the Father is without Glory is foolishness on your part.

I never said that. Why are people distorting my words more and more recently?

I said that to call Jesus Christ the Son, glory and image of the Father and then not affirm His eternal existence is to indirectly imply that there was a time when the Father was not the Father, without His glory and left void without any image.

The attributes applied exclusively to the Son can not belong to a being that is not eternally begotten from the Father like radiance from light.

Those faithful servants will see in the Lord of Glory, not merely "the man Christ Jesus," but the manifestation of his Father, mentally, morally and physically.

This is the result of the Logos of Yahweh at work "in

[LightHammer]

Lighthammer I posted this elsewhere today and thought it summed up nicely the challenge of bringing Jesus and God together in sharing one nature.

"He humbled himself, and became OBEDIENT unto death, even the death of the cross, WHEREFORE God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name" (Phil. 2:8-9).

Phillipians 2:6who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,

7but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

He humbled Himself, Insight. This means He willingly took upon a lesser glory and left a glory that was greater than what He became. That glory He left was His place on high in the Godhead.

This thread has been interesting to gauge the level of response and watch those who hold these false teaching wrestle with its doctrine in the Word.  I capitalised "obedient

[Insight]

Lighthammer I posted this elsewhere today and thought it summed up nicely the challenge of bringing Jesus and God together in sharing one nature.

"He humbled himself, and became OBEDIENT unto death, even the death of the cross, WHEREFORE God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name" (Phil. 2:8-9).

Phillipians 2:6who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,

7but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

He humbled Himself, Insight. This means He willingly took upon a lesser glory and left a glory that was greater than what He became. That glory He left was His place on high in the Godhead.

When you humble yourself do you take upon yourself a lesser glory?  Or is this revealing a state of mind. Of course this humbling unlike us was his constant mindset.

Why did he "need

[LightHammer]

Jesus being the firstfruits of them that sleep, or the firstborn of the dead, denies your above reasoning.

How? God can be all these things and still be God. Calling God, a King doesn't negate or disprove where He is called Light.

Come now. Is that all?

To imply the Father is without Glory is foolishness on your part.

I never said that. Why are people distorting my words more and more recently?

I said that to call Jesus Christ the Son, glory and image of the Father and then not affirm His eternal existence is to indirectly imply that there was a time when the Father was not the Father, without His glory and left void without any image.

The attributes applied exclusively to the Son can not belong to a being that is not eternally begotten from the Father like radiance from light.

Those faithful servants will see in the Lord of Glory, not merely "the man Christ Jesus," but the manifestation of his Father, mentally, morally and physically.

This is the result of the Logos of Yahweh at work "in

[Insight]

How? God can be all these things and still be God. Calling God, a King doesn't negate or disprove where He is called Light.

As we are finding Trinitarian teaching comes at the expense of Christ's true nature in the flesh and compromises what the Father achieved in the Son's death.  It undermines the work of the atoning principles as revealed from the beginning.

No doubt we will get to explore these principles in some depth if the Lord wills.

I said that to call Jesus Christ the Son, glory and image of the Father and then not affirm His eternal existence is to indirectly imply that there was a time when the Father was not the Father, without His glory and left void without any image.

Yes – you are right in stating Jesus is unique to this creation, in that he is the image (or replica) of the Father, unlike the Elohim.

In terms of God being without an image (Christ) you are indirectly highlighting the incredible exalted position the Father granted the Son by obedience and death.

Yahweh manifests himself in many ways and by various means, but in this creation He manifested Himself through a Son.

This was His prerogative although He weighed the cost of human life and personal pain in doing so stand in awe of His example of forbearance and love.

Now that Shekinah Glory was always with the Father and to imply God is lesser for not having a reflector of that Glory is nonsense and again without scriptural support.

The attributes applied exclusively to the Son can not belong to a being that is not eternally begotten from the Father like radiance from light.

Here is where you are wrong.

The attributes will also be enjoyed and received by the very elect who are found in him.  

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

You emphasize that the Word was at work "in" Jesus but Sacred Scripture is clear that the Word took on flesh Himself and then dwelt among us.

Yes, your understanding of how that Word became Flesh is defined here in 2 Corinthians 5.

To wit, that God (by His Word) was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

That Word and its purpose was in Jesus flesh nature putting to death its lusts and passions and bring every disobedient thought into the captivity, as it does us to a lesser degree.

And

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his (Yahweh's) power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus is the perfect example of the implanted of engrafted Word of God in flesh, perfectly.

Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

ESV

Wherefore putting away all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness, receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

Implanted of course takes us back to the Masters learning, listening, watching, tasting, smelling, breathing in the Word of His Father.

Expressions was the perfect word to use. These are clearly using an allegorical sense because while we are called "sons of God" St. John 3:16 is clear that there is only one Son begotten from the Father.

While this is true in one sense we are still born from above, and our lives are hidden in his and nothing separates us from his life, death and resurrection.

To endeavour to do speak against this oneness in Christ (purpose and eventual sharing of divine nature) would be futile.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

How many times has the Father given the life of His son?

If we gain our life through him and he was raised up on account of our salvation, by which he himself was also saved.  How can you have the Son living before his offering?

You cannot.

No it only implies that for a time the Son was without these characteristics or more accurately there was a time when He humbled Himself in presenting Himself without them.

How do you equate humbling oneself in mind becoming a servant with the removal of Glory? And all the while forcing a divine nature upon him?

Confusion reigns.

Not really a good question. It's very simple actually. Christ did not have a sinful nature because He did not need a sinful nature to be tempted as we are!

Were not Adam and Eve tempted as we were? Were they not also made without sin?

Yes, however Adam and Eve and their progeny inherited the effects of their sin in that all men including Christ, as I have shown, was born of a sinner and was in the line of Adam, Abraham and David all sinful men.

Where do you get this idea that you have to be under the curse of sin to be tempted and have the potential for sin? Not the Bible because Adam and Eve predated both and still here we are.

You are correct in stating Adam and Eve did not have the sentence of death passed upon them prior to being tempted.  Of course once that sentence was passed they began to die.  That constitution was passed upon all and because of this we sin.  

"Every man (Adam, Jesus and Lighthammer)is tempted when he is drawn away of HIS OWN LUST, and enticed.  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin, and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas. 1:14, 15).

Again you are really off. Way off.

The Word could've taken on sinless flesh after the same manner as Adam and Eve before the fall and like Adam and Eve could have been tempted fully as we are.

"He (Jesus) put away sin by the sacrifice of himself" (Heb. 9:26).

Explain to how Jesus put away sin by putting himself to death?

You mean you understand every single about God? Your god is so small that you can contain everything about Him in absolute understanding in your finite brain?

You do know of course that God is Truth which makes Truth infinite? You, a man existing within the confines of time space and sin has the full understanding of God infinitely contained in your thoughts?

Interesting.

No. you teach a mystery unrevealed which by its definition requires believers to not understand how they are saved.

God's revelation in Jesus Christ teaches us the opposite that we are given sufficient knowledge to lead us to salvation.

and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

No incomprehensible mystery is contained within this verse.

Usually when speaking with Catholics about such matters and the admission of their mystery, I usually withdraw from the discussion.  This doctrine of professing the unknown Trinity is far removed from Bible truth.

Eventually one of us will concede the teaching of a mystery is unscriptural, so while many aspects of the Trinity cannot be explained; explaining this away via "the mystery

[LightHammer]

When you humble yourself do you take upon yourself a lesser glory?  Or is this revealing a state of mind. Of course this humbling unlike us was his constant mindset.

Tapeinos

Definition:
not rising far from the ground
metaph.
as a condition, lowly, of low degree
brought low with grief, depressed
lowly in spirit, humble
in a bad sense, deporting one's self abjectly, deferring servilely to others


http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/tapeinos.html

Why did he "need

[Insight]

Tapeinos

Definition:
not rising far from the ground
metaph.
as a condition, lowly, of low degree
brought low with grief, depressed
lowly in spirit, humble
in a bad sense, deporting one's self abjectly, deferring servilely to others


http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/tapeinos.html

Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble5013 himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Of course this is not speaking of physically becoming a little child but taking on the mential disposition in sincerity and willingness to learn – state of mind

Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased5013 ; and he that shall humble5013 himself shall be exalted .

This use of Tapeinos is one of character in mind – whether proud or humble in continence.

Luk 3:5 Every valley shall be filled , and every mountain and hill shall be brought low5013 ; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways [shall be] made smooth;

Propehtically speaking of the govenrments being bought low.  Of course we are told the physical will also apply upon Christs second coming when he splits the mount of olives.

Luk 14:11For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased5013 ; and he that humbleth5013 himself shall be exalted .

Again speaking to one state of mind i.e. character

Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased5013 ; and he that humbleth5013 himself shall be exalted.

Again clearly a state of mind one in accordance with repentance

2Cr 11:7 [G2228] Have I committed an offence in abasing5013 myself that ye might be exalted , because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?

The humbling of oneself is taking a lower position in rank and appearance than those around you again a state of mind.

2Cr 12:21[And] lest, when I come again, my God will humble5013 me among you, and [that] I shall bewail many which have sinned already , and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed .

Bring me low in my assessment of self. To have no regard for oneself is the meaning of this word.

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled5013 himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Interesting that it didn't require his Father to do this, he wilfully fell under the might hand of His Father and in mind thought absoluletly nothing of himself.  Joseph is a great example of this in type.

Phl 4:12 [G1161] I know both how to be abased5013 , and I know how to abound : every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry , both to abound and to suffer need .
Again here we see disposition of mind and character.

Jam 4:10 Humble yourselves5013 in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

No greater example than the beloved Son who as you rightly teach humbled himself not needing rebuke of pride or haughtiness he humbled himself to the point of death and how was he highly exalted for doing this!!!

1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves5013 therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time

No comment – clear what Phil 2:8 is teaching anything more in in the imaginations of men.

My "key verse"? Not exactly.

The Son performed several functions as Christ. One of which was being our perfect example. To be an example of man He had to present Himself apart from His glory for what glory does man have?

A verse please.

1) The first one helps me more than you. It states that as a child Jesus Christ was already filled with wisdom.

Yes we are all fit for wisdom being made in the image after the likeness of Yahweh.  "God hath set eternity in the hearts of me...

[Insight]

It appears our discussion has stalled?

The simplicity of the Scriptures presents us a Jesus Christ:

•   Who was born a babe (Luke 2:7).
•   Who "increased in wisdom" (Luke 2:52).
•   Who "learned obedience by the things that he suffered" (Heb. 5:8).
•   Who was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Heb. 4:15).
•   Who "offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him (Yahweh) that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared" (Heb. 5:7).

Lighthammer,  I don't want you to try an harmonize the Trinitarian idea of omnipotent and omniscient co-equality and co-eternity with the above points.  Rather, I encourage you to consider a far deeper picture of Jesus Christ as revealed by the Apostle Paul.

Maybe one day you may tire of making Trinitarian language fit when we know it cannot.  And why should we try and make it fit?

The Jesus Christ I personally know existed in the flesh could not have possessed all power and wisdom, before his scripturally recorded birth as a baby.  To do so we would need to deny the actual reality of his birth and his "increasing in wisdom."

By contrast to the Son the Scripture declares a God whose understanding is infinite (Psa 147:5). Is it not then a denial of all the meaning of language to say that a co-equal constituent of this God "increased in wisdom," as Jesus grew up from a babe to manhood?

Now you can say with hand on heart that a constituent part of an omnipotent coequal Trinity of Gods became a feeble little babe must be seen as an absurdity. I want you to consider an Almighty God being a helpless, newborn babe and an all-powerful, all-knowing co- equal ruler of heaven and earth at the same time?

Can God be separated from His power and wisdom? Are not infinite power and knowledge inseparable elements of His very Godhead? (We both no that "Godhead" is just an outdated form of "Goodhood"  to mean, "divinity," the quality of being divine.)

You have ask, sincerely mind you, to believe that God changed Himself into a powerless and ignorant, helpless creature. If I asked you what happened to His power and wisdom? DID He, or did He NOT, continue to possess His eternal attributes?  Now as I write this I am already feeling we are moving away from a Biblical Basis to something else.

What I am clumsily showing you Lighthammer is a truth which is so contrary to your training and apparent schooling; one that could free you from unknown Mysteries to a revealed mystery in Jesus Christ which is so simple, even a young child could understand its message. 2 Tim 3:15.

Insight

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (Ephesians 1:9)

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, (Ephesians 3:3) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
(Ephesians 3:4)

And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
(Ephesians 6:19)

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: (Colossians 1:26)

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (Colossians 1:27)

That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; (Colossians 2:2)

[Insight]

Dear Lighthammer,

In conclusion to bring our discussion to a close I have found in my short time on this earth, if one studies the Word of God unspoiled by human philosophy they will find and discover the truth concerning the true Jesus Christ.

So in summary these scriptural facts concerning Jesus Christ must be reconcilable with Trinitarian contradictions.

•   He was conceived in Mary by the overshadowing of the Spirit-Power of God;

•   after the normal period he was born a babe

•   Increased in wisdom as he grew to manhood

•   Continually prayed to God

•   Offered supplication (humble entreaty) to God

•   Was heard and saved from death in that he feared and was obedient

•   Was tempted in all points like his brethren

•   Overcame

•   Learned obedience

•   Was saved from death by strong crying and tears

•   Received the Revelation of the future from God

•   Did not know things God knew

•   Was promised the throne of David by God

•   Had no right to say who should sit at his right hand

•   Was sent by God

•   Was taught by God

•   Was shown things by God

•   Recognized his subjection to the commands to worship and serve God

•   Is several times clearly DISTINGUISHED FROM the ONE TRUE AND ONLY GOD.

•   He is repeatedly described as a man

•   Was raised from the dead by God

•   Was glorified by God in answer to prayer

•   Was given power and authority by God

•   Was anointed by God with the Holy Spirit

•   Said God was greater than he

   Said he of himself could do nothing

•   Said the doctrine, words and works were NOT HIS but God's

•   When addressed as "good" he distinguished between himself as a man of mortal flesh and God Who

•   alone is wholly good
•   He was appointed by God as heir of all things

•   He prayed to God that the cup might pass but he relinquished his own will and submitted to God's

•   He was a prophet raised up by God from among his brethren

•   God is to judge the world by him

•   God is spoken of as the Head of Christ

•   He cried, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me

•   He was given commandments by God

•   He was made perfect through suffering

•   And he is finally to be subject to God and relinquish all power and authority back to Him that God may be all in all.

This is the scriptural picture of Jesus.

"By MAN came death, by MAN came also the resurrection of the dead" (1 Cor. 15:21).

Thank you for displaying a good spirited nature during this discussion.

Insight