Same or Different Interpretations throughout the last 2,000 years

[EdwardGoodie]

I am a firm believer that Scripture has always had ONE IDENTICAL INTERPRETATION ever since it was penned.  I do not believe there was one interpretation in 65 AD, another different interpretation in 234 AD, another one in 776 AD, another one in 1066 AD, another one in 1492 AD, another one in 1812 AD, and another one in 2011 AD.

How about you? Do you believe that the PROPER interpretation of the Bible to the generation living in the 4thcentury was available to the PROPER interpretation of the Bible to the generation of 19th century?  If not, then the Bible can mean anything to any particular generation and may vary among different aged groups even within one generation.

Remember, I am speaking only regarding the PROPER interpretation...

In other words, how many VALID and PROPER interpretations of the Bible are there?  Were they available to all generations?

I say there is ONLY ONE PROPER AND VALID interpretation of the Bible and all generations have had access to this ONE interpretation.

Futurists, what say you?  Be careful.  Your answer here may limits (and destroy) many things I have seen on this forum.

[Catholica]

I believe that the Gospel message preceded scripture, and that the correct understanding of scripture flows from first believing the correct gospel message.  So knowledge of that gospel message especially helped the early Christians know the correct interpretation of any scripture passage, and we can see this correct understanding and interpretation in the writings of the Early Church Fathers.  This same understanding helped the early Church know which books belonged in the Canon of scripture.

However I also believe that there are four senses that we can come to understand from all of scripture, and these are the literal sense (which is what most people think about, that is, what did the author intend to say?) as well as three spiritual senses: the moral sense, or how does this verse apply to me, the anagogical sense, or the eternal significance, and the allegorical sense, or the meaning of the scripture with regard to Christ.  All of these spiritual senses rely upon the literal sense.

So in short, I believe that there is one particular truth of the gospel message which was not an interpretation of scripture, but rather helped produce the correct interpretation of scripture, and that Jesus made that so by the Holy Spirit, and that the same message should not be deviated from today, but alas many do.

[lecoop]

There is, for the most part, ONE correct interpretation - the ORIGINAL INTENT of the Author when He had it penned.

For example:


Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Anyone will a LICK of common sense can know for SURE that this period of time has NEVER COME. Since it is never come, it is STILL FUTURE.

So there was one intent of the Author, to tell us about this millennial Reign of Christ. Isaiah wrote a little of this time, where a lion will lay down with a lamb, and a child will play with a snake. There will BE NO CURSE on the earth at that time. Again, just an ounce of common sense will tell us (Yes, a 5th grader would get this) that for the history of the bible so far, there has NEVER been a time when Satan has been bound and the curse lifted.

Now, what meaning did this have to those that read it FIRST, right after John wrote it and sent it to the churches? The VERY SAME meaning it has for us today.

Coop

[EdwardGoodie]

There is, for the most part, ONE correct interpretation - the ORIGINAL INTENT of the Author when He had it penned.

For the most part???  You don't sound very convinced here.

Now, what meaning did this have to those that read it FIRST, right after John wrote it and sent it to the churches? The VERY SAME meaning it has for us today.

Okay, now you're talking.  I agree with you here.  All I am saying is that the same meaning/interpretation was available for all generations afterwards - 236 AD, 500 AD, 1066 AD, 1492AD, 2011, and even those generations in the future (2087AD, 2259 AD, etc.)

Anyone will a LICK of common sense can know for SURE that this period of time has NEVER COME. Since it is never come, it is STILL FUTURE.

So there was one intent of the Author, to tell us about this millennial Reign of Christ. Isaiah wrote a little of this time, where a lion will lay down with a lamb, and a child will play with a snake...

Okay.  Your "lick of sense" is about to get exposed.  No where in the Bible does it say that the lion will lay down with the lamb. I assume you were attempting to refer to Isaiah 11:6-9...

Isaiah 11:6-9 - The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.  
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.  
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.  
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.  

The above is the description of "that day" that Isaiah (in the very next verse) refers to:

Isaiah 11:10 - And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

But there isn't a lick of a chance that you will believe the apostle and how he illuminates these verses, is there?  No, there isn't, and you know why?  It is because you are a wooden literalist who does not accept the following basics of hermeneutics (interpretation principles):

1.  You will not accept the apostles' illumination of the OT as the ONLY CORRECT INTERPRETATION
2.  You will not accept the COMMON Hebrew idioms, metaphors, symbols, and figures used all throughout Scripture

Here is the proof (again, only referring to Scripture):

At the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, the Gospel witness had been extended to the Gentiles as it had been given to the Jews when 3,000 were saved in Acts 2 and another 5,000 a little further on, plus several thousands throughout the book of Acts...

Acts 14:1 - And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.  

Acts 14:27 - And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.  

Acts 15:3 - And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.  

In Romans, Paul says basically the same thing by quoting three OT Scriptures;

Romans 15:8-11 - Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:  
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.  
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.  
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.  

Paul is explaining to the church of Rome (composed of BOTH Jews and Gentiles) that it had been foretold a long time ago that the Gentiles would be included (as it had been happening in Acts) and WERE BEING INCLUDED into the body of Christ.


Now here is your problem:

In the very next verse of Romans 15 where the context is still the bringing in of the Gentiles WHICH WAS OCCURRING IN THEIR FIRST CENTURY GENERATION. Pauls quotes a fourth OT passage (Isaiah 11:10) in support of the present Gentile conversion!

Romans 15:12 - And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

The "that day" from Isaiah 11:10 had arrived and Paul used Isaiah to prove it!

And by the way, the animals from Isaiah 11:6-9 are nothing more than the clean (Jews) and the unclean (Gentiles).  Remember Peter an his vision in Acts 10:

Acts 10:10-16 - And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,  
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:  
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.  
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.  
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.  
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.  
16  This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.  

Notice verse 12's mention of four-footed beasts, wild beasts, creeping things, and fowls of the air.  What was Peter's explanation of these creatures?  Here it is:

Acts 10:28 - And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.  

But I know you won't accept the New Testament illumination on these kinds of things because of the two reasons stated above...

Have a nice day!



   

[JohnDB]

Actually the Church Fathers were all over the place concerning their Eschatology.

Some were all about a literal Millenia Reign and others believed it to all be symbolic. (Clement VX.....Drawing a blank...tired brain) Ireaneus maybe?

Now if they were clueless as to the interpretation...then how is it that we who were not personally trained by Paul (as was Clement) can be so closer to the mark than any one else throughout history with proper hermeneutics of what John wrote?

But God called John to write it and give it to mankind for a reason.

And where there probably is a proper way to interpret the book...I think God had it made confusing for a reason. He didn't want most people understanding it. Especially as we draw close to the final eschaton.

I know a lot of people have claims to know exactly what all of the Book means...but they all can't be right now can they?
And looking back. All them Jewish scholars never did know that it was the time for the Messiah when Jesus got there either...despite all the many signs and wonders that Jesus performed.  Can the time of the final end be any different?
In the end there were only two people that recognized Jesus as a baby for who He really was...a little old lady Prophet and little old man prophet at the Temple...

Will our end be any different even though it will be as "lightning in the sky going from east to west?"

[Linker]

"ONE correct interpretation - the ORIGINAL INTENT of the Author when He had it penned"


Coop has the correct answer

So why the many different views and interpretations?

Primarily motive and self gain are the spoilers

The motive must be pure and there must be no measure of self gain involved

The Lord said that many would come in His name [professing to be christian] and deceive many

..... they have come in droves over the centuries and exist in vast numbers today

Don't be deceived

[EdwardGoodie]

JohnDB,

Do you believe (yes or no) that there is ONLY ONE CORRECT INTERPRETATION and that interpretation has been available to all generations since the NT was penned?

Please understand that I am not asking if the one correct interpretation was REALIZED by each generation, because it obviously was not since there has been more than one interpretation (hundreds actually).

Linker,

Do you believe (yes or no) that there is ONLY ONE CORRECT INTERPRETATION and that interpretation has been available to all generations since the NT was penned?

Please understand that I am not asking if the one correct interpretation was REALIZED by each generation, because it obviously was not since there has been more than one interpretation (hundreds actually).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If individuals believe that there can be more than one CORRECT INTERPRETATION and that people from various generations since the first century could not have access to THE ONE CORRECT INTERPRETATION, then there is no absolute standard - anything goes...

But if individuals believe that there is ONLY ONE CORRECT INTERPRETATION and that this interpretation was available for all generations since the first century, then there is one standard of truth.  It also necessitates a first century understanding and eliminates all technological and scientific interpretations of the Bible, like laser tatoos, infrared implants, helicopters, nuclear war, etc. simply because the generations prior to the 20th century had never even heard of such things!!!  Of course, this concept will be entirely lost upon those who do not have ears to hear...

And that is why the unusual propensity to interpret the Bible through a Western 20th scientific and cultural hermeneutic is absolutely dead wrong...

But it is not going to stop most of the futurists from still doing just that, right?

[daq]

"ONE correct interpretation - the ORIGINAL INTENT of the Author when He had it penned"


Coop has the correct answer

So why the many different views and interpretations?

Primarily motive and self gain are the spoilers

The motive must be pure and there must be no measure of self gain involved

The Lord said that many would come in His name [professing to be christian] and deceive many

..... they have come in droves over the centuries and exist in vast numbers today

Don't be deceived

So then we should expect to see with our flesh eyes an angel coming down from heaven with a literal chain in his hand? And a literal key to a literal bottomless pit? And he will lay hold on the old serpent from way back in Genesis 3 who is also called the devil, and who is now a red colored dragon? We can be fairly sure the two of you are correct in that no one has ever seen this with his flesh eyes before. However, Yeshua stated to the generation which sees only with "the eyes of the flesh" that they would be given NO SIGN except the sign of Jonah and yet to the very same generation he gave all the signs of Matthew 24 and its companion chapters like Mark 13. Perhaps this is because those of the Matthew 24 generation were his disciples? Perhaps he was about to cause a "change" in them which would enable them to see with "the eyes of the SPIRIT".

Matthew 12:38-39 KJV
38.  Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39.  But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation (GSN#1074 genea) seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Matthew 24:33-34 KJV
33.  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34.  Verily I say unto you, This generation (GSN#1074 genea) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Original Strong's Ref. #1074
Romanized  genea
Pronounced ghen-eh-ah'
from (a presumed derivative of) GSN1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):
KJV--age, generation, nation, time.

How then can the disciples see all these signs come to pass yet the evil and adulterous will not see any of them? The same word for "generation" is used of both passages of the same Gospel of Matthew concerning these two different people groups.

[Linker]

The Lord is forecasting long and speaking about the generation of a returned remnant of national Israel during the coming 70th week decreed for the nation .... His discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 has nothing to do with today's church

His early disciples were Israelites and they were concerned about their nation's destiny and wanted to know the details regarding the time of the end, His return, and His intent to restore the kingdom to a believing remnant part of Israel which He is going to do

He gives them the answers, but does not tell them the dating .... and this dating has been revealed to no one

An unbelieving remnant of the nation has returned to the land today and in place to experience the time that He tells them about ..... it is coming, and when it does, all of the details of His discourse will be fulfilled

A part of the nation is going to turn to Him during the 70th week decreed and it is these mortals who will enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom on the earth

All of the details in the discourse describe Israel in the land at the time of the end by description and location

There is only one correct interpretation of prophetic exegesis .... it has never changed

And when one discovers this, one will understand correctly

The Lord's prophetic word does not and has not changed ..... only men with ulterior motives suggest off course ideas .... the list is long and the followers have been and are legion   

[lecoop]

There is, for the most part, ONE correct interpretation - the ORIGINAL INTENT of the Author when He had it penned.

For the most part???  You don't sound very convinced here.

Now, what meaning did this have to those that read it FIRST, right after John wrote it and sent it to the churches? The VERY SAME meaning it has for us today.

Okay, now you're talking.  I agree with you here.  All I am saying is that the same meaning/interpretation was available for all generations afterwards - 236 AD, 500 AD, 1066 AD, 1492AD, 2011, and even those generations in the future (2087AD, 2259 AD, etc.)

Anyone will a LICK of common sense can know for SURE that this period of time has NEVER COME. Since it is never come, it is STILL FUTURE.

So there was one intent of the Author, to tell us about this millennial Reign of Christ. Isaiah wrote a little of this time, where a lion will lay down with a lamb, and a child will play with a snake...

Okay.  Your "lick of sense" is about to get exposed.  No where in the Bible does it say that the lion will lay down with the lamb. I assume you were attempting to refer to Isaiah 11:6-9...

Isaiah 11:6-9 - The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.  
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.  
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.  
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.  

The above is the description of "that day" that Isaiah (in the very next verse) refers to:

Isaiah 11:10 - And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

But there isn't a lick of a chance that you will believe the apostle and how he illuminates these verses, is there?  No, there isn't, and you know why?  It is because you are a wooden literalist who does not accept the following basics of hermeneutics (interpretation principles):

1.  You will not accept the apostles' illumination of the OT as the ONLY CORRECT INTERPRETATION
2.  You will not accept the COMMON Hebrew idioms, metaphors, symbols, and figures used all throughout Scripture

Here is the proof (again, only referring to Scripture):

At the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, the Gospel witness had been extended to the Gentiles as it had been given to the Jews when 3,000 were saved in Acts 2 and another 5,000 a little further on, plus several thousands throughout the book of Acts...

Acts 14:1 - And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.  

Acts 14:27 - And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.  

Acts 15:3 - And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.  

In Romans, Paul says basically the same thing by quoting three OT Scriptures;

Romans 15:8-11 - Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:  
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.  
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.  
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.  

Paul is explaining to the church of Rome (composed of BOTH Jews and Gentiles) that it had been foretold a long time ago that the Gentiles would be included (as it had been happening in Acts) and WERE BEING INCLUDED into the body of Christ.


Now here is your problem:

In the very next verse of Romans 15 where the context is still the bringing in of the Gentiles WHICH WAS OCCURRING IN THEIR FIRST CENTURY GENERATION. Pauls quotes a fourth OT passage (Isaiah 11:10) in support of the present Gentile conversion!

Romans 15:12 - And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

The "that day" from Isaiah 11:10 had arrived and Paul used Isaiah to prove it!

And by the way, the animals from Isaiah 11:6-9 are nothing more than the clean (Jews) and the unclean (Gentiles).  Remember Peter an his vision in Acts 10:

Acts 10:10-16 - And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,  
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:  
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.  
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.  
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.  
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.  
16  This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.  

Notice verse 12's mention of four-footed beasts, wild beasts, creeping things, and fowls of the air.  What was Peter's explanation of these creatures?  Here it is:

Acts 10:28 - And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.  

But I know you won't accept the New Testament illumination on these kinds of things because of the two reasons stated above...

Have a nice day!

Isaiah 11:6-9 - The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.  
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.  
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.  
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.  

So you will put MORE WEIGHT on what Paul wrote, and then IGNORE what Isaiah wrote? Do you think the Holy Spirit was just toying with Isaiah, coming up with nonsense?  Sorry, it was a wolf not a lion: but the point is made.

You see, I believe Isaiah JUST AS MUCH as I believe Romans. Did you not notice that in many Old Testament prophecies there can be thousands of years almost between words?

Remember what Jesus said?

Luke 4
18  The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19  To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20  And he closed the book,

But Jesus did NOT FINISH THE VERSE!!!
Isaiah continued:

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;


Why did Jesus stop there? It is very simple: He went on to say:

21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

He could NOT have included the last phrase of that verse, because it was FOR A FUTURE TIME. The day of Vengeance is STILL AHEAD OF US!

Really, you will not have long to wait - and you will see it with your own eyes.
For coming VERY SOON Jesus will come for His Bride, and the VERY SOON after that, the Day of His vengeance will begin. May I suggest you watch for the signs at the 6th seal? Once you see that play out exactly as John wrote it, perhaps - just perhaps you will realize you have been deceived by the MASTER deceiver.


Since I am meddling, I might as well go further:  Have you ever seen a "masterpiece" up close - or perhaps a copy of one? Say the Monolisa, or a Rembrandt painting, a Picasso, or a Michael Angelo painting? They are called "masterpieces" because they were painted by a master.

Now, I want you to ask yourself a question: "Why don't I pray in tongues, like Paul did?"

Your answer will be an ABSOLUTE MASTERPIECE of deception by the devil.

I am guessing, but I am convinced I guessed right - that you have never prayed in tongues, as show in Acts 2:4, or Acts 10, or Acts 19?

Coop

[EDEN2004]

EdwardGoodie, I noticed you skipped over the part about Satan being bound for a thousand years, but in your humble opinion, when did that happen, or how do you spiritualize Revelation 20 away?

Also, a couple of questions on  Isaiah.

Isa 11:11  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

According to your logic, "that day", the day the Lord recovered the remnant of his people, occurred in Romans 15:12....Notice a problem here? There was no remnant to recover, the Jews were already in the land at that time, and they certainly weren't taken to heaven. So how does that fit into your theology?

Isa 11:12  And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

When were the outcasts of Israel and the dispersed of Judah gathered from the four corners of the earth? Do you think this may be referring to the same time as Revelation chapter 7?

Also, explain this one:

Romans 15:12 - And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

The "that day" from Isaiah 11:10 had arrived and Paul used Isaiah to prove it!

There is no logic in your statement whatsoever. Please explain to us how Romans 15:12 proves that "that day" had arrived......It doesn't, this only exists in EdwardGoodies mind because this is how you operate, you twist verses to make them fit your theology. That my friend is not the way to study God's word. Let God's word speak to you, don't change the word of God to fit your theology......Serious error!

[EdwardGoodie]

Isaiah 11:6-9 - The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.  
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.  
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.  
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.  

So you will put MORE WEIGHT on what Paul wrote, and then IGNORE what Isaiah wrote? Do you think the Holy Spirit was just toying with Isaiah, coming up with nonsense?  Sorry, it was a wolf not a lion: but the point is made.

If you think Paul and Isaiah are not speaking of the SAME THING, then your theology believes in a system where two or more correct interpretations are possible

And no, of course I do not speak in tongues.  They have ceased, that is IF you believe Paul.

[EdwardGoodie]

EdwardGoodie, I noticed you skipped over the part about Satan being bound for a thousand years, but in your humble opinion, when did that happen, or how do you spiritualize Revelation 20 away?

Not even sure what you are referring to here and where it was that I mentioned anything in Revelation...sorry.

Also, a couple of questions on  Isaiah.

Isa 11:11  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

According to your logic, "that day", the day the Lord recovered the remnant of his people, occurred in Romans 15:12....Notice a problem here? There was no remnant to recover, the Jews were already in the land at that time, and they certainly weren't taken to heaven. So how does that fit into your theology?

I understand.  It is very difficult to get over the idea that the "recovery of the remnant" must have a land nature attached.  I was in your wooden literalistic system for more than 20 years.  This system does not allow for the Hebrew metaphors, figures, symbols to have any serious role in interpreting Scripture.

But you are right, what the apostle Paul said has ZERO relationship to Jews being in the land and not being taken to heaven.  However, the Apostle Paul did quote Isaiah 11:10 (along with three other OT quotes) to prove his point to the church of Rome that the Gentiles were and had been seeking the Lord in the first century.  This is undeniable  The real question is the fact that your theology does not fit in with how Paul related Isaiah 11:10 to the Gentiles being saved.  You cannot accept the fact that the remnant being recovered has to do with believing the Gospel.  That is how INSPIRED Paul used Isaiah 11:10 - but that is in contrast to your theology, just as it once was with mine.

Isa 11:12  And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

When were the outcasts of Israel and the dispersed of Judah gathered from the four corners of the earth? Do you think this may be referring to the same time as Revelation chapter 7?

Paul is definitely using Isaiah 11:10 and three other OT verses to show that the gathering had surely begun.  And yes, I would say that this has to do with Revelation 7 as well as Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27.  Remember, Jesus said that these things would occur in that 1st century generation (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30).  And yes, I know you think these verses are future but how else do you explain the fact of several thousand Jews being saved in the book of Acts (1st century church history)?

Also, explain this one:

Romans 15:12 - And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

The "that day" from Isaiah 11:10 had arrived and Paul used Isaiah to prove it!

There is no logic in your statement whatsoever. Please explain to us how Romans 15:12 proves that "that day" had arrived......It doesn't, this only exists in EdwardGoodies mind because this is how you operate, you twist verses to make them fit your theology. That my friend is not the way to study God's word. Let God's word speak to you, don't change the word of God to fit your theology......Serious error!

Then I guess you deny the fact that the Gentiles were being saved in the first century even though Paul used those 4 OT passages to say that this was prophesied a long time age.  You also deny the salvation of the Gentiles as indicated by those verses in Acts I quoted. 

Now your turn.  You get to explain to me (and this forum) why you believe Paul quoted those 4 OT passages including Isaiah 11:10.  This should be fun...

[EDEN2004]

EdwardGoodie, I noticed you skipped over the part about Satan being bound for a thousand years, but in your humble opinion, when did that happen, or how do you spiritualize Revelation 20 away?

Not even sure what you are referring to here and where it was that I mentioned anything in Revelation...sorry.

This is the part that you skipped over and made no comment on, it was posted by lecoop.

Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


When was Satan bound for 1000 years?
What year did Satan stop decieving the nations?
What year was the mark of the beast?
How long is the "little season", are we still in that little season now, or is Satan still bound and not decieving the nations today?

[EdwardGoodie]

You see, I believe Isaiah JUST AS MUCH as I believe Romans. Did you not notice that in many Old Testament prophecies there can be thousands of years almost between words?

Nope.  Is that like reading between the lines?

It would seem that you know so very little about the Jews way back then.  Did you know that it was VERY COMMON for the Tanuch to be memorized by the age of twelve?  Did you also know that when a portion of the OT was mentioned it would bring to memory the whole passage concerning that subject?  It is your useless 21st century Western hermeneutic that has decided these ridiculous gaps.

You say Luke 21 is regarding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and do not apply it to your alleged future final 2nd coming, right?  And if not, what event would you apply it to?

So, based upon YOUR OWN LOGIC that was supposedly deduced from this quote of yours:

Remember what Jesus said?

Luke 4
18  The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19  To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20  And he closed the book,

But Jesus did NOT FINISH THE VERSE!!!
Isaiah continued:

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;


Why did Jesus stop there? It is very simple: He went on to say:

21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

He could NOT have included the last phrase of that verse, because it was FOR A FUTURE TIME. The day of Vengeance is STILL AHEAD OF US!

You say that these days of vengeance are still in the future, right?

Well what do you do with Luke 21:22?

Luke 21:22 - For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.  

I guess you will have to deny it, right?

I suppose you also think that there is a gap between the 69th week and the 70th week too, right?

What comes after 69?

Daniel 9:26 - And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.  

AFTER the 69th week puts it into the 70th week...as one person suggested in this forum, "Ask any fifth grader..."

[EdwardGoodie]

EdwardGoodie, I noticed you skipped over the part about Satan being bound for a thousand years, but in your humble opinion, when did that happen, or how do you spiritualize Revelation 20 away?

Not even sure what you are referring to here and where it was that I mentioned anything in Revelation...sorry.

This is the part that you skipped over and made no comment on, it was posted by lecoop.

Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


When was Satan bound for 1000 years?
What year did Satan stop decieving the nations?
What year was the mark of the beast?
How long is the "little season", are we still in that little season now, or is Satan still bound and not decieving the nations today?

I am a full preterist.  You have your answer.  Did you forget?

Revelation had nothing to do with the original thread. 

Since you disagree with the interpretation of Isaiah 11:10 being used in Romans 15, why don't you answer my question and tell all of us why you think Paul brought up those 4 OT passages including Isaiah 11:10 in Romans 15:8-12?  Do you even know?

[JohnDB]

JohnDB,

Do you believe (yes or no) that there is ONLY ONE CORRECT INTERPRETATION and that interpretation has been available to all generations since the NT was penned?

Please understand that I am not asking if the one correct interpretation was REALIZED by each generation, because it obviously was not since there has been more than one interpretation (hundreds actually).

Yes, and it would be known only to the originator of the Piece. (namely God)

Daniel didn't understand his prophesies when he wrote them down for future generations of Jews. He even asked God what they meant and the answer was even more confusing than the original. But Daniel was told that he didn't need to know the answer.

Obviously John had read the book of Daniel. I am more than sure that he was familiar with it. John also doesn't repeat the Olivet discourse like Matthew, Mark, and Luke do. Which is something towards the purpose of his writing the epistle to begin with.

Obviously there is something to the book. It contains God's words to us. Over the centuries few people have learned to understand that God's word is timeless...Meaning that it has been true, it is true, and will be true in the future as well. (unless there is a specific time limit placed in the writing)

Soooo...I am not one to claim that I have all the answers. I know what parts I can make heads or tails out of...but that doesn't give me license to share them.  And If by chance I was to make someone stumble by my understanding...well...I wouldn't want that on my conscience. 

[lecoop]

Edward Goodie wrote

Quote from: lecoop on Yesterday at 11:04:56 PM

Isaiah 11:6-9 - The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 

So you will put MORE WEIGHT on what Paul wrote, and then IGNORE what Isaiah wrote? Do you think the Holy Spirit was just toying with Isaiah, coming up with nonsense?  Sorry, it was a wolf not a lion: but the point is made.

If you think Paul and Isaiah are not speaking of the SAME THING, then your theology believes in a system where two or more correct interpretations are possible

And no, of course I do not speak in tongues.  They have ceased, that is IF you believe Paul.

Well, one of two things is very obvious: either you don't BELIEVE Paul, or you lack understanding of what Paul wrote.

Let me help you with your understanding.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 (King James Version)
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1 Corinthians 13:8-12

King James Version (KJV)

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Is there still prophecies today? Certainly there are. Is there still knowledge today? Certainly there is, and it is growing faster than every before. Are we still knowing "in part?" Certainly we are! But Paul tells us there WILL COME a day when the PERFECT will come, and on that day, us knowing "in part" will be gone! 

Do we STILL see as through a glass darkly? Certainly we do. Do we NOW see Jesus face to face? CERTAINLY NOT! That is FUTURE.  (I know this is like a four letter word to you, but it is truth).  Do we now know even as WE are known? CERTAINLY NOT.  Some of the "we" or "us" here are so confused they cannot see the future in Revelation, when MOST of it is future.

So what is the REAL meaning of this verse? Simple this: one day soon Jesus is coming back to earth on a white horse. When HE comes, we WILL see Him face to face! WHEN He comes, we will know even as we are known. And WHEN He comes, the use for tongues will cease.

BUT THAT DAY HAS NOT YET COME!

We are still living under the Age of Grace - the same age as the church. VERY LITTLE has changed except the date.  However, one day VERY SOON the age of grace will be OVER, with the sound of a long trumpet blast, the "last trump." It will be the day we get to go home - that is all who BELIEVE in His coming.

IF you don't believe in His coming, then He is NOT coming for you. Is that simple enough? You will be LEFT BEHIND.

Coop

[EdwardGoodie]

Daniel didn't understand his prophesies when he wrote them down for future generations of Jews. He even asked God what they meant and the answer was even more confusing than the original. But Daniel was told that he didn't need to know the answer.

I often wonder why so many assertions are made without Scriptural support.   In this case I know why.  YOU say Daniel didn't understand but the Word of God says he did understand:

Daniel 9:22-23 – And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Daniel 7:16 – I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

Daniel 10:1 – In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

Daniel 10:14 – Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Seems like Daniel understood quite well.  I have to ask, why did you say Daniel did not understand and what proof led you to believe this?

Obviously John had read the book of Daniel. I am more than sure that he was familiar with it. John also doesn't repeat the Olivet discourse like Matthew, Mark, and Luke do. Which is something towards the purpose of his writing the epistle to begin with.

Not even sure what your point is here...

Obviously there is something to the book. It contains God's words to us. Over the centuries few people have learned to understand that God's word is timeless...Meaning that it has been true, it is true, and will be true in the future as well. (unless there is a specific time limit placed in the writing)

No one is questioning the validity (truth) of the Bible here.  But that is a good point about the timing of specific events though.  What was near, at hand, nigh and shortly to come to pass for that first century church cannot possibly be near, nigh, at hand and shortly coming to pass for us almost 2,000 years later.  But that truth is totally disregarded...

Soooo...I am not one to claim that I have all the answers. I know what parts I can make heads or tails out of...but that doesn't give me license to share them.  And If by chance I was to make someone stumble by my understanding...well...I wouldn't want that on my conscience.

And if you knew someone was in error would you just stay quiet so as to keep the peace or would you feel the need to help them understand?  Of course, doing it with the right attitude always helps.  I have found that the futurists here could care less about what I believe.  I have even been tersely scolded for my beliefs (being called a heretic, a cult member, etc.), but at least, I provide Scriptural support - not theological system support.

2 Timothy 2:25 - In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 

All I wanted to know is if you believe there was only one correct interpretation of the Bible and that the interpretation would have been available to be known by every generation since Scripture stopped being penned.  A simple yes or no would have sufficed.

[Debrah]

I pray and sing with the gift of tongues everyday,...be careful when you assume to know more than the Holy Spirit, God gives us supernatural abilities through the Holy Spirit, none of these have ceased, but if you do not want them, nor believe in them, you grieve the Holy Spirit, and you will not be blessed by them.

[lecoop]

I pray and sing with the gift of tongues everyday,...be careful when you assume to know more than the Holy Spirit, God gives us supernatural abilities through the Holy Spirit, none of these have ceased, but if you do not want them, nor believe in them, you grieve the Holy Spirit, and you will not be blessed by them.

Hallelujah! At least you and I know they have not ceased!

It is too bad so many do not understand the benefits! When you have God the Holy Spirit CREATING our prayer, BORROWING our authority, us praying the PERFECT prayer, and God the Father hearing and answering, WE CAN'T LOSE!!!

Of course Satan understands the great benefits of praying in tongues, so brings a masterpiece of deceit to keep people from receiving.  Good job, Debrah!!!!

Coop

[mclees8]

IF you don't believe in His coming, then He is NOT coming for you. Is that simple enough? You will be LEFT BEHIND.

No one is being left behind. You and I are going at the same time. Just as Paul only spoke of one catching away and it is clearly seen in REV 15.

Pre trib is a flim flam that fills church pews and lines pockets of book writers wistling to the bank

[lecoop]

IF you don't believe in His coming, then He is NOT coming for you. Is that simple enough? You will be LEFT BEHIND.

No one is being left behind. You and I are going at the same time. Just as Paul only spoke of one catching away and it is clearly seen in REV 15.

Pre trib is a flim flam that fills church pews and lines pockets of book writers wistling to the bank

I am sad to see you believe that: now YOU will soon be flimflamed. For VERY SOON Jesus is coming for His bride. But you will be left behind. NO ONE will be a part of the Bride that does not BELIEVE in His soon coming, and are WATCHING for Him.

Of course Paul wrote of the catching away: he was the ONLY writer of the New Testament that had that revelation. But if you read, HIS catching away comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

Sorry, NO catching away in Rev 15: what we see there are those that REFUSED the mark, and LOST their head. The Bride will be taken out LONG before that.

Coop

[Linker]

Those who refute the Lord's intent to immortalize His church before His coming wrath and judgment upon the earth are singing the song of the devil who hates the idea of human immortality

[Matthew 25:1-13] those without oil [Matthew 24:4-5] deceiving and being deceived [Revelation 3:15-19] those who refute and profess with a christian fronting

The gathering [2Thessalonians 2:2:1] ..... next [2Thessalonians 2:2-12] the day of the Lord's wrath

Do not let Satan snooker you into the say of the wrath of the Lamb [Revelation 6:12-17]

If you do, he will be waiting for you [Revelation 12:12]

Here is the immortal pre-tribulation church dwelling in the heavenly state of existence [Revelation 3:10; 4:5; 5:5-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9]

Here is the pre-tribulation church coming to contend at Armageddon with the Lord [Joel 2:2-11; Zechariah 14:4-5; Jude 1:14-14; Revelation 19:14: 20:4 [those on thrones .... symbol of the Lord's government]]

Those who have forsaken the Lord's promise to keep them from His coming wrath and tribulation have been deceived and are those of the professing church who are not truly His followers in the first place

This multitude of the present day is growing in numbers deceiving and being deceived and this is to be expected as time moves closer the Lord's sudden unannounced intervention to bring His unprecedented judgment of an intransigent unbelieving world .... He will come quickly and with no warning

Those of His church who are ready will be made immortal [1Corinthians 15:22-23; 15:51-52]

Those who scoff at this truth are reflecting a lost unsaved position and if living at the time will face the devil's intent to destroy them during the coming tribulation period .... and if you escape the devil's beast or worship him the Lord will destroy your spirit in His lake of fire [Revelation 14:9-11; 20:11-15]

If you are one of these you will have to repent and turn to the Lord during the period .... very few will

..... and if you do, keep your faith and do not give up even though you will most likely be killed in the tribulation .... and He will resurrect you at the end of it [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13; 15:2-3; 20:4 [those beheaded]

And if you survive as a believer during the period you will be one who favors His national people of Israel and He will allow you to enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth as a mortal [Matthew 25:31-46]

..... but if you refuse Him and stand against Israel during the period He will reject you and you will not enter

One will find the fence sitting professing church among those who teach replacement theologies, preterism, MSOG movements, and post-tribulation thinkers

.... do not follow the teachings of any of these organizations or movements of professing christianity    

[mclees8]

IF you don't believe in His coming, then He is NOT coming for you. Is that simple enough? You will be LEFT BEHIND.

No one is being left behind. You and I are going at the same time. Just as Paul only spoke of one catching away and it is clearly seen in REV 15.

Pre trib is a flim flam that fills church pews and lines pockets of book writers wistling to the bank

I am sad to see you believe that: now YOU will soon be flimflamed. For VERY SOON Jesus is coming for His bride. But you will be left behind. NO ONE will be a part of the Bride that does not BELIEVE in His soon coming, and are WATCHING for Him.

Of course Paul wrote of the catching away: he was the ONLY writer of the New Testament that had that revelation. But if you read, HIS catching away comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

Sorry, NO catching away in Rev 15: what we see there are those that REFUSED the mark, and LOST their head. The Bride will be taken out LONG before that.

Coop

Well then we won't be the first to have lost our heads for Christ will we. I use think like you until I studied and gave much thought. This modernday doctrine is an insult to all who have suffered untold tribulations and persecution for Christ yet some how the modern day free world church comes upt with a non suffering church. Yet when you study the New testament it never says once that there are those who suffer and those who don't. Where was pre trib for the early saints fed to dogs and lions. lit up as lamposts, crusified and oh yes beheaded. Just ask Paul. You can keep beleiving you false security doctrine if you want to, but as Jesus said in this world you will have tribulation. There is no suffering and nonsufferfing time line in scripture. There is never mentioned once two different saints, those who don't have to suffer and those poor saints who just didn't make the first trip up because they beleived what the bible really says. I pray you have the courage when they come for your head. As for me I will stand as the left behind for I am no better then those who suffered before me.

[FireSword]

Those who refute the Lord's intent to immortalize His church before his coming wrath and judgment upon the earth are singing the song of the devil who hates the idea of human immortality

[Matthew 25:1-13] those without oil [Matthew 24:4-5] deceiving and being deceived [Revelation 3:15-19] those who refute and profess with a christian fronting

The gathering [2Thessalonians 2:2:1] ..... next [2Thessalonians 2:2-12] the day of the Lord's wrath

Do not let Satan snooker you into the say of the wrath of the Lamb [Revelation 6:12-17]

If you do, he will be waiting for you [Revelation 12:12]

Here is the immortal pre-tribulation church dwelling in the heavenly state of existence [Revelation 3:10; 4:5; 5:5-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9]

Here is the pre-tribulation church coming to contend at Armageddon with the Lord [Joel 2:2-11; Zechariah 14:4-5; Jude 1:14-14; Revelation 19:14: 20:4 [those on thrones .... symbol of the Lord's government]]

Those who have forsaken the Lord's promise to keep them from His coming wrath and tribulation have been deceived and are those of the professing church who are not truly His followers in the first place

This multitude of the present day is growing in numbers deceiving and being deceived and this is to be expected as time moves closer the Lord's sudden unannounced intervention to bring His unprecedented judgment of an intransigent unbelieving world .... He will come quickly and with no warning

Those of His church who are ready will be made immortal [1Corinthians 15:22-23; 15:51-52]

Those who scoff at this truth are reflecting a lost unsaved position and if living at the time will face the devil's intent to destroy them during the coming tribulation period .... and if you escape the devil's beast or worship him the Lord will destroy your spirit in His lake of fire [Revelation 14:9-11; 20:11-15]

If you are one of these you will have to repent and turn to the Lord during the period .... very few will

..... and if you do, keep your faith and do not give up even though you will most likely be killed in the tribulation .... and He will resurrect you at the end of it [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13; 15:2-3; 20:4 [those beheaded]

And if you survive as a believer during the period you will be one who favors His national people of Israel and He will allow you to enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth as a mortal [Matthew 25:31-46]

..... but if you refuse Him and stand against Israel during the period He will reject you and you will not enter

One will find the fence sitting professing church among those who teach replacement theologies, preterism, MSOG movements, and post-tribulation thinkers

.... do not follow the teachings of any of these organizations or movements of professing christianity     

The bible says the meek shall inherit the earth. If you escape the beast and not worship him or his image then your new home will be in millenium peace, reigned by Jesus.

I think also Jesus will spare a large portion of non believers, just as he spared the animals during Noahs time.
These people are the meek of the Earth, possibly children included, to repopulate the new world, just as in the days of Noah.
Just as Animals are creatures, in some sense the bible also calls humanity creatures. But the saints become new creatures modeled after the heavenly.

I think also I know his plan for doing this mass exodus. Praise his mercy.

[lecoop]

IF you don't believe in His coming, then He is NOT coming for you. Is that simple enough? You will be LEFT BEHIND.

No one is being left behind. You and I are going at the same time. Just as Paul only spoke of one catching away and it is clearly seen in REV 15.

Pre trib is a flim flam that fills church pews and lines pockets of book writers wistling to the bank

I am sad to see you believe that: now YOU will soon be flimflamed. For VERY SOON Jesus is coming for His bride. But you will be left behind. NO ONE will be a part of the Bride that does not BELIEVE in His soon coming, and are WATCHING for Him.

Of course Paul wrote of the catching away: he was the ONLY writer of the New Testament that had that revelation. But if you read, HIS catching away comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

Sorry, NO catching away in Rev 15: what we see there are those that REFUSED the mark, and LOST their head. The Bride will be taken out LONG before that.

Coop

Well then we won't be the first to have lost our heads for Christ will we. I use think like you until I studied and gave much thought.

This tells me you did NOT study very carefully. The pretrib rapture is written clearly for those that meditate the scriptures and pray in the Holy Spirit and let God reveal it. Did you not read 1 Thes. chapter 5? Paul shows us clearly that those in darkness get the "sudden destruction" warning of the Day of the Lord, while those in the light, get "salvation" and get to "live together with Him." Really, this last phrase is very close in meaning to "and so shall we ever be with the Lord." In BOTH of these, Paul is speaking of the rapture coming before the Day of the Lord.

Now, some that have understood Paul,  then try to push the Day of the Lord off to the last day of the week! Why not just BELIEVE what is written? The SIGNS for the day come at the 6th seal, and the DAY starts at the 7th seal, and WITH the first trumpet.
How amazing then, to see the raptured church in heaven, BEFORE the 7th seal is broken.

This modernday doctrine is an insult to all who have suffered untold tribulations and persecution for Christ yet some how the modern day free world church comes upt with a non suffering church. Yet when you study the New testament it never says once that there are those who suffer and those who don't. Where was pre trib for the early saints fed to dogs and lions. lit up as lamposts, crusified and oh yes beheaded.

Written no where you say?

Heb 11
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

What point is Paul making? That some people born at different times, had to die without seeing what their faith KNEW was theirs. However, after they died, they went to heaven - so in the end, it makes little difference.

What? Did you expect God to have a rapture whenever Christians are in trouble? No, God had planned from the beginning of time for ONE Rapture of His bride. So this TRUE doctrine of a pre-trib rapture of the church is NOT an insult: it is TRUTH  - and you just insulted God by insulting His wonderful plans.

Just ask Paul. You can keep beleiving you false security doctrine if you want to, but as Jesus said in this world you will have tribulation. There is no suffering and nonsufferfing time line in scripture. There is never mentioned once two different saints, those who don't have to suffer and those poor saints who just didn't make the first trip up because they beleived what the bible really says. I pray you have the courage when they come for your head. As for me I will stand as the left behind for I am no better then those who suffered before me.

In case you did not know, there is a HUGE difference between "tribulation" and "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." What did Jesus say?  "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." OF COURSE Christians will have tribulation, for the devil HATES us, and we are living in HIS world.  But the day coming, will be UNLIKE any other time on the earth - because God is going to turn His back, so to speak, on the earth, and let Satan have his will on earth, for 3 1/2 years. But God has told us over and over, in different ways and in different verses that we can ESCAPE all these things.

However, if you wish to "tribulate," then by all means continue to believe as you do, and you will be left behind to face the Beast. If that is your desire, is it not written that God gives us the desires of our heart?   Good luck with that! You are going to need it!
I am going to be in heaven, rejoicing in His goodness!

Coop

[FireSword]

Having knowledge that he is soon to appear might help as he said to pray for escape. But being a loving person in christ, will carry more weight. So a person might not look for his appearing, but be raptured anyway, because they are holy and worthy.

[lecoop]

Having knowledge that he is soon to appear might help as he said to pray for escape. But being a loving person in christ, will carry more weight. So a person might not look for his appearing, but be raptured anyway, because they are holy and worthy.

Everything we have received from God up to this point has been by and through faith. We were born again by faith. We receive our daily bread through faith. We receive healing and health through faith.

What does this mean? It means we had an understanding that Jesus came from heaven to die for us, and in our place. That He was our substitute in death, so we could live. He took our sins and gave us His righteousness. We believed this by faith and therefore received salvation and regeneration.

For those that have believed "by his stipes we are healed," we have received physical healing because we had the knowledge that He took our infirmites and bore our sicknesses. Again, we received healing by faith.

I say again, EVERYTHING we have received from God came by faith:
by GRACE are you saved through faith..."

So what if our RAPTURE comes by and through our faith? Will someone that does not believe in the rapture  - be raptured? I don't think so! Why do you think Jesus emphasized so much, to be WATCHING? I believe He is coming ONLY for those that are watching. If one is NOT watching, they are either entangled in the world, or deceived.

Coop

[FireSword]

I guess he said Pray that ye may be worthy to escape.

He also said to the church in revelation I am pleased with your works.

Those who need to watch the most are those who are uncertain about their standing with him.

Those who do good works and have  NOT self rightoeusness are already confident in their relationship with him.
Just like Enoch.