The TWO Glorious Bodies

[EdwardGoodie]

2 Corinthians 3:6-18 - Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.  
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:  
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?  
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.  
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.  
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:  
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:  
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ[/B].  
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.  
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.  
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.  
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

In case one is not able to understand what the color-coding represents, the RED refers to old covenant things and the BLUE refers to new covenant things.

There are some on this forum who cannot see the realities of the two glorious bodies as expressed by Scripture.  To these folks, these bodies MUST be considered with respect to the human, physical form (before and after death).  Paul does not speak of these things.  He speaks regarding covenants - the law versus the spirit, the old versus the new, the natural versus the spiritual.

Notice the references of the first glory being taken away and to be abolished.  Hebrews 8:13 alludes to the same thing:

Hebrews 8:13 - In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.  

The "time of the end" has nothing to do with the planet or physical universe; it has to do with covenants.  Those of the old covenant persecuted the new covenant believers in Christ.  The judgment would be upon those persecutors.   Christians are the new temple.  We are the new creation.  The old was destroyed to make way for the new...

This was the day approaching to the Hebrew believers (Hebrews 10:25).  This was what was represented by Peter's "the end of all things is at hand" (1 Peter 4:7).  This is why John the Revelator could say with the utmost confidence "things which must shortly come to pass" and "the time is at hand" (Rev 1:1, Rev 1:3).  This is why Jesus said it would be "this generation" (referring to the 1st century generation) that would see all these things...

As long as one only wishes to look by sight to demand physical fulfillments to replace previous physical things supposedly tainted by sin (gnosticism), they will continually miss the redemption that is specified in the Bible.

[daq]

Hi EG
Take a step back for a moment and look a little deeper at what is being said. Perhaps you already understand this, or maybe not, but it has everything to do with the thread title. Paul is speaking of the glory of the FLESH of the countenance and face of Moses which needed to be vailed. It is that glory which was to be done away: THE FLESH. In this context the "letter of the Law" is the flesh interpretation of the Law which the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes adhered to. The New Covenant is the Old Covenant refreshed-renewed-transformed into SPIRIT.

Paul uses the flesh of the countenance of the face of Moses as the example of that which was to be done away with. It was also the flesh of the countenance and face of Moses which needed to be vailed because he had been in the presence of the holy Eternal. It was then Moses in the flesh, (but vailed) who ministered the ministration-dispensing of the Law of condemnation to the people. Not was the Law itself to be done away but the flesh of Moses (and the flesh of us and all men). The "flesh-letter of the Law" also is now "done away" in the same manner because the SAME TORAH LAW is now revealed to be SPIRIT and of the heart, (Covenant refreshed-renewed-transformed). Paul, in Christ, is one of the co-ministrators of the more glorious Spirit of the Law which remains, just as the flesh is dissolved but the Spirit remains.

[EdwardGoodie]

Hi EG
Take a step back for a moment and look a little deeper at what is being said. Perhaps you already understand this, or maybe not, but it has everything to do with the thread title. Paul is speaking of the glory of the FLESH of the countenance and face of Moses which needed to be vailed. It is that glory which was to be done away: THE FLESH. In this context the "letter of the Law" is the flesh interpretation of the Law which the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes adhered to. The New Covenant is the Old Covenant refreshed-renewed-transformed into SPIRIT.

Paul uses the flesh of the countenance of the face of Moses as the example of that which was to be done away with. It was also the flesh of the countenance and face of Moses which needed to be vailed because he had been in the presence of the holy Eternal. It was then Moses in the flesh, (but vailed) who ministered the ministration-dispensing of the Law of condemnation to the people. Not was the Law itself to be done away but the flesh of Moses (and the flesh of us and all men). The "flesh-letter of the Law" also is now "done away" in the same manner because the SAME TORAH LAW is now revealed to be SPIRIT and of the heart, (Covenant refreshed-renewed-transformed). Paul, in Christ, is one of the co-ministrators of the more glorious Spirit of the Law which remains, just as the flesh is dissolved but the Spirit remains.

Not quite sure what you are saying, Daq...sorry

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:   

Are you saying that the glory on Moses' face was to be done away in some manner?  I see verse 7 (the first part) as speaking of the ministration of death that was glorious as the glory that was to be done away.  Moses was dead, the glory which was on his face has long gone...not sure if I understand exactly what you were saying...

I am pretty certain that I have posted regarding the things of the "flesh" here before, but haven't a clue where.  It was fairly recent though...maybe I shouldn't post so much...

[EdwardGoodie]

Hey Daq,

I found my post about the flesh.  It was on another forum...

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?76229-Adam-would-not-have-made-it!&p=2276658#post2276658

[daq]

Exodus 34:28-35 KJV
28.  And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
29.  And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
30.  And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
31.  And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.
32.  And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the Lord had spoken with him in mount Sinai.
33.  And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.
34.  But when Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.
35.  And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

It was the SKIN of Moses' face which shone with glory. And Moses then ministered-administered the Laws of YHWH to the people with his face vailed because the children of Israel could not look upon his face for the glory which shone in the skin of his flesh-face. If the glory of that flesh was so great, which glory of the skin of his face was to be done away with, how much greater is the Law of Spirit which shall never pass away? Yeshua states that his words shall never pass away; and this we also know because those who love him have his commandments written in their hearts, on tables not made of stone, and the saints are eternal in Christ. If the Word be in you, and you be baptized into him, and you are eternal, then truly his words shall never pass away and we are become his parchments, scrolls, and books, (which will be opened in Rev.20).

The word "ministration" is "to administer", "to dispense", "to attend".

2 Corinthians 3:7 KJV
7.  But if the ministration (GSN#1248 diakonia) of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Original Strong's Ref. #1248
Romanized  diakonia
Pronounced dee-ak-on-ee'-ah
from GSN1249; attendance (as a servant, etc.); figuratively (eleemosynary) aid, (official) service (especially of the Christian teacher, or techn. of the diaconate):
KJV--(ad-)minister(-ing, -tration, -try), office, relief, service(-ing).

2 Corinthians 3:7-9 RSV (Revised Standard)
7.  Now if the dispensation of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such splendor that the Israelites could not look at Moses' face because of its brightness, fading as this was,
8.  will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendor?
9.  For if there was splendor in the dispensation of condemnation, the dispensation of righteousness must far exceed it in splendor.

To Moses it was given to dispense the LETTER of Torah, (death).
To Paul, in Christ, it was given to dispense the SPIRIT of Torah, (life).

Paul then gives the supernal understanding of the vail near the end of the passage. The vail over the glory which shone in the skin of the flesh of the face of Moses represents the "spiritual vail" which was over the unbelieving hearts of the children of Israel.

2 Corinthians 3:11-16 KJV
11.  For if that which is done away (the flesh-skin of Moses' face) was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious (the Spirit).
12.  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13.  And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: (the flesh-letter which is condemnation)
14.  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15.  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16.  Nevertheless when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Notice verse 14 begins with "their minds were blinded" yet the vail is upon the heart IN THE READING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT-COVENANT. And that vail is only done away IN CHRIST. It is not the Old Covenant which is "done away" but the flesh-Letter of the Law of the Old Covenant. And those who are NOT IN CHRIST have unto this day a vail over the heart concerning the true supernal meanings of the Spirit of Torah. The greatest lesson of all these supernal interpretations is the Covenant of the Circumcision with Abraham which is not of "the foreskin of the flesh" (which would necessarily exclude women from the Covenant) but rather true circumcision is of the spiritual circumcision of the HEART. Paul also gives many more examples using the Law lawfully, (which is Spirit) and following the lessons layed out by the Master in the four Gospel accounts.

[EdwardGoodie]

Hey Daq, I think we basically agree here.

When I say old covenant I guess I am more or less speaking of the system and the people of that system, for we know that Christ came to fulfill the Law not to destroy it.  As long as one gets the idea that things relating to the OC is glorious and that things relating to the new covenant are more glorious, then it is easy to understand how one goes from "glory to glory" (2 Cor 3:18).

This new glory is the glorious body, or as some people like to refer it as the glorified body).  It is immortal as well because immortality comes via Jesus Christ and His Gospel:

2 Timothy 1:10 - But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:  

I believe we totally mess up the understanding of the glorified and immortal body when we ignore the relationship of the old and new covenants in these understandings.  If what I say is true, then:

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The past tense is a natural progression.  There is no future gap between justification and glorification.


The old covenant system and its people are referred to the "heaven and earth." 
The new covenant system (grace thru faith) and its people are referred to the "new heaven and earth", the "new creation," and the "new Jerusalem."

If one looks at Matthew 5:18 in regard to the above, it makes perfect sense.  And if "heaven and earth" have not passed, then we all should still be living under ever little bit (jot and tittle) of the law.  Nothing should be left out.

In 2 Peter 3:10 the same application should be made because of the nearness of this occasion in 1 Peter 4:7.

We all know that the system was destroyed and the people murdered, scattered, or sold into slavery a long time ago.  The end is regarding the end of the age which was the old covenant age.  That is why it was always expressed as "near," "nigh," "at hand," "shortly come to pass," etc.

[thethinker]

Hey guys,

What's the point about the skin of Moses glowing? The emanation would have still come from within him but only observed in the skin. I see the lamp shade glowing and know that the emanation comes from underneath it.

thinker

edited to correct spelling

[daq]

Amen for the most part EdwardGoodie!

Hey guys,

What's the point about the skin of Moses glowing? The emanation would have still come from within him but only observed in the skin. I see the lamp shade glowing and know that the emanation comes from underneath it.

thinker

edited to correct spelling

Hi thinker
The point is that the glorified body is NOT seen because it is spirit, (beneath the skin) and spiritual. The same was the point with the Law: if we walk according to the flesh we shall die, (by the letter) but if we walk according to the Spirit IN CHRIST then we shall live. This walking in the Spirit includes foremost our understanding of Torah; our minds being renewed in the Spirit of the teachings of Christ and his doctrines.

The Spirit is not seen just as the glorified body is NOT seen. Paul takes one of the most mundane and seemingly useless commandments which in our modern culture we would assume to surely be one of the commandments to be obsolete if any were obsolete. And yet what does he say? Essentially that YHWH spoke not of "oxen" in the following but rather of people!

Deuteronomy 25:4 KJV
4.  Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

1 Corinthians 9:8-10 KJV
8.  Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9.  For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10.  Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Where does Paul get this interpretation of Torah?
Remember that Luke also penned The Acts and traveled with Paul:

Luke 13:11-17 KJV
11.  And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
12.  And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
13.  And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
14.  And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
15.  The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
16.  And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
17.  And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

Luke 14:1-6 KJV
1.  And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
2.  And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
3.  And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
4.  And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
5.  And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
6.  And they could not answer him again to these things.

See there is much more to the teachings and parables of Christ then what first meets the eye. And these things only become visible to those who love Christ the Word and allow themselves to be fully immersed, baptized into his death through the washing of the water in the Word: it is all, every wit, "under the skin"...

John 3:8 YGB
8.  the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'