Whatever happened to Marriage & Divorce?

[Memphis Dwight]

Used to be a few years ago, there was a degree of discussion (or arguing)
going on regarding the doctrine of marriage and divorce.  But it has curiously
disappeared. 

I wonder why?

The group that seemed to be most vocal about it were those that send and
receive preachers not from four year universities but from "preacher schools."  And
it was they that tended to promote a particular slant.  In their minds, after a divorce
has happened, either one or both of the participants must remain single for life.  When pressed for the details as to how this was arrived at, it was then that the
structure started to show weakness.  One group would claim a particular set of
circumstances mandated celibacy for one or both parties, and yet several other
groups would have conflicting specifications. 

The more liberal church groups never put out a consistent, harmonious teaching either.  Their take away message was simply that God hated divorce but it was not
unforgivable and no divorced person was required to stay single.  This all sounded good but didn't help those that couldn't get past the idea that they were somehow living in adultery. 

So there ya have it.  One group preached celibacy for some divorced people though when the details were examined things got a bit confusing.  And  the other group
gave lip service to discouraging divorce but never FULLY (<----) explained the teachings of Christ on the subject. 

In closing, I am confident that the stricter groups stopped talking about it because of the embarrassment they suffered when repeatedly shown their inconsistencies. 
Thoughts?

[chosenone]

I think that most people (including me)used to get so fed up with all the arguing on the subject, and all the condemnation that was leveled at those who didn't agree with them, or those who were, like me, divorced and very happily remarried. I think its best left alone in my opinion because some people are so entrenched in their views, no matter what the Bible says, that is it pointless arguing or discussing or producing verses.
If you ask 20 Christians what they believe on this subject, you will probably get 20 different answers. Each of us need to make sure that we are at peace with God with what we ourselves believe (as I am) and what others say really isn't important.

[Debbie_55]

Was there anything pertinent that you wanted to know about or just wondering why no one discusses it much anymore. 

[Gomer]

Jesus gave fornication as the only reason for divorce and remarriage.

[JohnDB]

I think Memphis Dwight is just lookin to get things riled up as usual. He never sticks around long. Just long enough to stir the pot & then leaves.

[Memphis Dwight]

I happen to believe that this is a most important topic. 

Think about this for a moment.  Marriage and divorce is such a heavy matter that were it not for some 'disagreement', then the Anglican church would never have been started.  It was a king that wanted to remarry, if memory serves me correctly, and the pope would not grant him the option so he started the Anglican church.  The pilgrims were under persecution later on from that church and came to America.  So in essence, we are all here because of Marriage & Divorce.  Right?

Now to me, the answers that some give are just too convenient.  The answers like the one Gomer gave seem rather straightforward, direct and clear -- at first glance.  It is like when a magician does a very spectacular trick and amazes the crowd.  But when we see how he did the trick, the illusion vanishes. 

In regards to Gomer's response:

1.  What about fornication?
2.  Does this mean that only men can divorce?
3. Because Christ's original audience would not have understood Him to be saying that a wife could divorce her husband for fornication or for anything.   

To JohnDB, as far as riling things up or stirring up something, your comments seem intended on getting me to say something mean which inevitably gets me banned.  But I'm just being paranoid, right?

Some parrot a much tossed about and wrong paraphrase of Christ's lecture on MDR, they say something like "Moses let the men divorce their wives but Christ changed all of that."

what they derive that from mainly (aside from the preacher saying it many times) is the passage in which some of those words appear.  Mt 19 and Mk 10

"He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so"

"And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put [her] away.
And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept."

I will comment on what these really seem to be saying and not what they have been misinterpreted to mean later..

[Gomer]

In regards to Gomer's response:

1.  What about fornication?
2.  Does this mean that only men can divorce?
3. Because Christ's original audience would not have understood Him to be saying that a wife could divorce her husband for fornication or for anything.   

In Mk 10:12 Jesus said wives could put away their husbands. 

Coffman Commentaries says of this verse:

"This pronouncement of Jesus went far beyond anything the Jews taught.



According to Rabbinic law, a husband could not be said to commit adultery against his wife. So Jesus goes beyond Rabbinic teaching by speaking of a husband's committing adultery against his wife. F13

Mark's record of Jesus' application of the rule on adultery to both sexes is thought to have been prompted by Gentile readers to whom this gospel is supposed to have been directed. The view here is that Christ spoke all that is recorded of him, both here and in the other gospels; and the fact of one writer's having recorded one thing and another's having recorded different things (though not contradictory) is due to the difference of intention and purpose that each had. This means that the total of Jesus' teaching must be determined by the composite record of all the gospels. Such a view is in line with what Jesus himself said regarding the belief of "all that the prophets have spoken" (Luke 24:25)."


F13 C. E. B. Cranfield, op. cit., p. 321. (C. E. B. Cranfield, The Gospel according to Saint Mark (Cambridge: The University Press, 1966),

[Memphis Dwight]

How about you and I have a discussion on this, Gomer?  If I wanted to read someone else's thoughts who lived long ago in the past, I could look that up myself. 

Now you said:

In Mk 10:12 Jesus said wives could put away their husbands.

But when I actually look at the actual text, here is what I read:
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

I'm not looking for 'rabbinic tradition' but rather what the word of God really says. 

Christ spoke of following after others, He saith:
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.  Mk 7:9

[chosenone]

Jesus gave fornication as the only reason for divorce and remarriage.

The word Jesus used was 'pornea' which basiclly means 'sexual immorality', and that can include fornication, adultery, gay sex, bestiality, and many other types of sexual sin. Its where the word porn comes from.

People have their own agendas on this subject.

I know that Jesus allows women to divorce their husbands for serious sexual sin, partly because He has clearly led me to, and others who I know as well. Of course in OT times the man or women who cheated would have been killed anyway, so no need for divorce.
Then there are the people whose spouse divorces them against their will, even though they have not committed any sin(like my husband).Nothing they can do about it, and therefore they are innocent, and if their ex spouse committed sexual sin they are free to remarry. 

[cs80918]

The subject of divorce is one of the easier things to understand in the bible.

Either male or female can divorce and it is acceptable if it is for the reason of adultery.

It is also acceptable for that person who divorced , because of adultery to remarry.

Simply for people who burn with sexual desire it is perfectly fine for them to get remarried.

Only a few people don't burn with sexual desire for these people it is better that they remain unmarried.

If sex is not a burning desire for you then it is better to remain unmarried. 

However; we know that very few people are like this and rightfully so otherwise the human race would of ended a long time ago, because people wouldn't have children.

[Gomer]

How about you and I have a discussion on this, Gomer?  If I wanted to read someone else's thoughts who lived long ago in the past, I could look that up myself. 

Now you said:

In Mk 10:12 Jesus said wives could put away their husbands.

But when I actually look at the actual text, here is what I read:
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

I'm not looking for 'rabbinic tradition' but rather what the word of God really says. 

Christ spoke of following after others, He saith:
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.  Mk 7:9

If the woman put her husband away for some reason other than fornication, cf Mt 19:9, and she marry another, she commits adultery.  The same would be true for a man who puts his wife away for any reason other than fornicaton and marry another. he commits adultery.  Jewish law did not allow for a woman to put away her husband but Christ changed that by applying His law to both the man and woman.

[Debbie_55]

I wrote this while I was contemplating my second divorce because I wanted to know what God said and not what man interpreted.

Gods' grand design was for man to take care of the earth and have dominion over all living things. God knew this was to big a job for one man so he created man a helpmate and called her woman. The two were to multiply and replenish the earth with more helpers to till the land and help take care of Gods creation, Genesis 1, 2.

Gods will for woman was to be a helpmate to the man in every way, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, socially and physically. She was also created to bare the generations to come. A woman was not greater or less than the man, but was his equal.

Within perfection soon came imperfection when woman was deceived and disobeyed what God told her and man not to eat of. Man did not take his spiritual authority over the woman and now sin had entered into the hearts of all man and woman and they hid themselves from the voice of God. As the population grew and sin ran ramped laws had to be added for the transgressions. God saw that the people needed guidance to come back to him for so many fell away from the voice of God. The more immortality gave place to the adding of more laws until man twisted the laws of God and created new ones to justify their deeds. There are now over 613 Levtical or Mosaic laws that were given to the Israelites to follow, Exodus 20:1-17.

There is no place in the Bible that constitutes having to have a marriage license. Man incorporated this into the law. In the Hebrew tradition a mohar or dowry was paid to the father of the bride by the groom in exchange for the daughter, Exodus 22:17. Genesis 2:23-25 explains the bond of marriage. The two are united as one in the eyes of God. Ephesians 5:22-29 wives are to submit to their husbands as unto the Lord for the husband is the spiritual head of the wife. Man is the provider and protector of his family. Husbands, you are to love your wives like Christ loves his church. This is an unconditional love that looks on the inside of a person and not the adorning of the outside. It is a love with a pure heart.

This submission also carries over to the bed that neither should deprive one another unless it is a mutual consent, 1 Corinthians 7:5 the principles for the married believer are explained in 1 Corinthians 7:10-16. As long as there is love and faithfulness the two should never depart from each other nor stray away for lust of the flesh.

Does God permit divorce; no he does not for what God has joined together as one flesh let no man separate it, Matthew 19:6. God joined man and woman together before sin entered into the hearts of man and woman, Genesis 2:18. When woman was deceived by the serpent in Genesis 3:1-13 and gave the man to eat of the fruit, man forgot what God told them not to do and they both tried to hide from God, but God knew what they had done and now was sin entered into the hearts of man and woman.

This is why we are all now born with a sin nature because of the fall of man. Sin soon was found where no truth of God could be found. Mans hearts were now filled with the lust of the eyes and lust of the heart. Man sought after his own pleasures and soon made gods of their own to worship and bow down to. These gods were a way for man to justify their own pleasures.

There was a man named Moses that God did find favor in and through using Moses as a faithful servant established what we call the Mosaic laws or Levitical laws which there are over 613 laws. These laws were established for man to make them once again righteous in the eyes of God and turn from the evil that filled their hearts.

Even with the laws God gave to Moses for the people, mans sin hardened hearts now turned to fornication, lust of self and covertness of others property including another mans wife. New laws were added continuously for the transgressions of man and this is how we got the law for divorce which was handed down by Moses in Deuteronomy 24:1-4.

1 Corinthians 7:10, Jesus commands the woman not to leave her husband and if she does she should remain unmarried, but in Malachi 2:10-16 the treachery that man commits against a woman which leads him to have an affair outside of the marriage or abuses the wife whether it be physical or emotional gives place to what was said by Moses in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 that if a woman is no longer pleasing to her husband then the husband should give his wife a written bill of divorcement and send her out of the house and this gives the woman the right to marry again, but she can never go back to her former husband if that marriage does not work out or her husband dies for now she is defiled to be with her first husband and this is an abomination to God.

For a good marriage to work one should study 2 Corinthians 6:14 be ye not unequally yoked together with non-believers for what fellowship hath righteous with unrighteous, and what communion has light with darkness. If you are a believer in Jesus Christ then you need to choose a mate that also believes in the faith of Christ. In some marriages people do not enter into a relationship with Christ being the center of it, but maybe one of them come to know the Lord and the other one refuses to have that personal relationship with Christ then we go back to what 1 Corinthians 7:12-16 says. If the unbelieving partner leaves the believing partner then this frees the believing partner from the bondage of the vows of marriage and they are free to marry again.

Before ever getting married take time to really know each other and establish a friendship that consist of trust and belief in each other. Allow Christ to be the center of your friendship and this will allow you to begin a marriage that is totally Christ centered. Always resolve your problems with the Holy Ghost guidance through the word and you will always have a good marriage. Always be opened and honest with each other for this builds trust in the relationship, but if that trust is broken there is no relationship. Love each other unconditionally as Christ loves us and forgives us our faults. As long as we live in this flesh we will sin at times, but when you acknowledge those sins and ask for forgiveness God will always forgive us. Always be ready to forgive each other seventy times seven, Matthew 22:21,22, and not only forgive, but forget the sin as God remembers our sins no more when we repent of them. The outside appearance will always change and beauty may fade, but it is the heart of the person we are to love and the heart will never change as long as the love of Christ dwells within it.

[Memphis Dwight]

Gomer,

If the woman put her husband away for some reason other than fornication, cf Mt 19:9, and she marry another, she commits adultery.  

Jesus did not say that.  He said, If a man should put away his wife except for fornication.  The two times that the fornication clause is mentioned (Mt 5:32, Mt 19:9) is when the divorcing is happening from the initiation of the husband.  

Jewish law did not allow for a woman to put away her husband but Christ changed that by applying His law to both the man and woman.

Where does Christ ever speak of changing the law?  It would have been especially useful for the Pharisees if Christ had tried to do that for they could have immediately had Him stoned for blasphemy.  

Christ did not change the law, He condemned an abuse of the law.  

[Gomer]

The word Jesus used was 'pornea' which basiclly means 'sexual immorality', and that can include fornication, adultery, gay sex, bestiality, and many other types of sexual sin. Its where the word porn comes from.

I agree.

People have their own agendas on this subject.

I know that Jesus allows women to divorce their husbands for serious sexual sin, partly because He has clearly led me to, and others who I know as well. Of course in OT times the man or women who cheated would have been killed anyway, so no need for divorce.

Mt 19:9 fornication is the only reason Jesus allows for divorce and remarriage.

Then there are the people whose spouse divorces them against their will,....

Don't both spouses have to sign the divorce papers?  Can one spouse refuse to sign the papers thereby refusing to give the other spouse a divorce?

...even though they have not committed any sin(like my husband).Nothing they can do about it, and therefore they are innocent, and if their ex spouse committed sexual sin they are free to remarry.  

I 'm not sure what you are saying here but if the divorce was for a reason other than fornication, they are not free to remarry.

[DaveW]

The word Jesus used was 'pornea' which basiclly means 'sexual immorality', and that can include fornication, adultery, gay sex, bestiality, and many other types of sexual sin. Its where the word porn comes from.

Actually HE was quoting from Deuteronomy and the word was "ervah." Typical conversation with the Pharasees would NOT have been in greek. It was translated into greek for distribution sake later.

So what did ervah mean?  Even in Jesus' day it was debated. The 2 great scholars of the previous century had debated it (and their pupils continued the debate)

Rabbi Shammai said it meant ONLY if a groom found his bride to not be a virgin on their wedding night - nothing after that point.

Rabbi Hillel said that it meant that if he found anything about the wife displeasing including her continued burning his meals.   About 70 years after the time of the gospels, Rabbi Akiva (house of Hillel) said it meant if he found someone prettier.

If you want to go with pornia, it can mean ANYTHING that violates the Torah's sexual directives: no premarital sex, no adultery, no beastiality, no (male) homosexuality, no sex during uncleanness of menstrual periods or after childbirth, etc.

BTW, the letter in Acts 15 prohibited pornia to the gentile churches and probably WAS originally written in greek as it was going to greek speaking diaspora congregations.

[cs80918]

Gomer,

If the woman put her husband away for some reason other than fornication, cf Mt 19:9, and she marry another, she commits adultery.  

Jesus did not say that.  He said, If a man should put away his wife except for fornication.  The two times that the fornication clause is mentioned (Mt 5:32, Mt 19:9) is when the divorcing is happening from the initiation of the husband.  

Jewish law did not allow for a woman to put away her husband but Christ changed that by applying His law to both the man and woman.

Where does Christ ever speak of changing the law?  It would have been especially useful for the Pharisees if Christ had tried to do that for they could have immediately had Him stoned for blasphemy.  

Christ did not change the law, He condemned an abuse of the law.  

Have you not figured out that when the bible speaks of a man that it is often times speaking of women as well.

If you don't understand this, how are you to understand many of the things in the bible?

I heard a lesbian tell me "The bible only says it is wrong for a man to have sex with another man, it never says it is a sin for a woman to have sex with another woman"

That is just nonsense and a lie from satan.

[Gomer]

Jesus did not say that.  He said, If a man should put away his wife except for fornication.  The two times that the fornication clause is mentioned (Mt 5:32, Mt 19:9) is when the divorcing is happening from the initiation of the husband.  

You have to take what both Matthew and Mark said together.  Mk 10:12 says a woman can put her husband away and MT 19:9 says fornicaton is the only reason for divorce and remarriage.


It seems your suggesting that a woman cannot put her husband away.  If Mk 10:12 does not allow for a woman to put her husband away, then that would mean Mk 10:11 does not allow for a husband to put his wife away, right?  But that would contradict Mt 19:9 but the bible does not contradict itself.

Where does Christ ever speak of changing the law?  It would have been especially useful for the Pharisees if Christ had tried to do that for they could have immediately had Him stoned for blasphemy.  

Christ did not change the law, He condemned an abuse of the law.  

Christ took the OT law out of the way nailing it to His cross, Col 2:14.  The Jews did not stone Jesus but instead hung Him on a cross.

[Gomer]

Have you not figured out that when the bible speaks of a man that it is often times speaking of women as well.

I see that Mark in Mk 10:11,12 and Matthew in Mt 19:9 are speaking about the same occurance even though Mark does not give the exception of fornication.  They do not contradict each other but  Matthew gave more information than Mark.  So combining both  accounts together one gets that a woman or husband can put away her/his spouse and remarry only on the basis of fornication.

[chosenone]

How about you and I have a discussion on this, Gomer?  If I wanted to read someone else's thoughts who lived long ago in the past, I could look that up myself.  

Now you said:

In Mk 10:12 Jesus said wives could put away their husbands.

But when I actually look at the actual text, here is what I read:
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

I'm not looking for 'rabbinic tradition' but rather what the word of God really says.  

Christ spoke of following after others, He saith:
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.  Mk 7:9

If the woman put her husband away for some reason other than fornication, cf Mt 19:9, and she marry another, she commits adultery.  The same would be true for a man who puts his wife away for any reason other than fornicaton and marry another. he commits adultery.  Jewish law did not allow for a woman to put away her husband but Christ changed that by applying His law to both the man and woman.

The word 'pornea' does not mean fornication nor does it just mean adultery. It is used in the Bible to describe other types of  sexual sins such as gay sex, therefore it cant just mean adultery or fornication, or Jesus would have used different words. I used to think that Jesus word just meant adultery, but if he had just meant adultery, he would have used a different word. Pornea can mean many different types of sexual sin. For example if a female spouse is haing sexual relationships with another woman, wouldnt you agree that it is grounds for divorce? If a  husband has sexually molested little children, wouldnt you say that is grounds for divorce?If a husband or wife is having oral sex with another person, wouldnt you say that can be grounds for divorce?  They are all 'pornea' and are therefore grounds for divorce according to Jesus.   It is far too narrow to restrict this to just adultery or fornication.

[chosenone]

The word Jesus used was 'pornea' which basiclly means 'sexual immorality', and that can include fornication, adultery, gay sex, bestiality, and many other types of sexual sin. Its where the word porn comes from.

I agree.

People have their own agendas on this subject.

I know that Jesus allows women to divorce their husbands for serious sexual sin, partly because He has clearly led me to, and others who I know as well. Of course in OT times the man or women who cheated would have been killed anyway, so no need for divorce.

Mt 19:9 fornication is the only reason Jesus allows for divorce and remarriage.

Then there are the people whose spouse divorces them against their will,....

Don't both spouses have to sign the divorce papers?  Can one spouse refuse to sign the papers thereby refusing to give the other spouse a divorce?

...even though they have not committed any sin(like my husband).Nothing they can do about it, and therefore they are innocent, and if their ex spouse committed sexual sin they are free to remarry. 

I 'm not sure what you are saying here but if the divorce was for a reason other than fornication, they are not free to remarry.

Well of course you are wrong because adultery is included in the word 'pornea' that Jesus himself uses, which means sexual sin. If one spouse wants a divorce the other can do nothing about it. After a set period(in the UK anyway) the divorce can be granted whatever the other spouse thinks or wants. It takes 2 to marry but one to divorce.

Adultery and other types of sexual sin are allowable reasons for divorce in Gods eyes. I have heard this 'fornication only' teahcing before on here but it just isnt Biblical. The teachings we get here (which has been confirmed by my own studying)shows that it is pornea that is the reason Jesus gives for an allowable divorce. You will see in the Bible that this word is used for other types of sexual sin such as homsexuality so how can it possibly means fornication only?
 

« Last Edit: Today at 12:02:57 PM by chosenone »   

[chosenone]

This is why it is pointless to even discuss this because everyone believes something different and thinks they have a right to tell others what they can and cant do even though they have carefully studied it for themselves . My husband and I are both divorced for our ex's sexual immorality. God clearly led me to do this after 2 years of seperation, prayer and speaking to three different well respected pastors. MY husbands former wife met another man, had an affair and wanted to marry him, and divorced her husband.
God in His amazing goodness and restoration, clearly bought us together and we have a fantastic blessed 6 year marriage. God is good and He does restore to us ALL that the locusts have eaten as he has promised.
So enjoy yourself guys. Its all a waste of time because no one will see what is really being said and sticks to their own views because that is what they have always been told.
Meanwhile I will enjoy my amazing God given husband and get on with loving God and thanking Him for His blessings in my life.

[DaveW]

Jesus did not say that.  He said, If a man should put away his wife except for fornication.  The two times that the fornication clause is mentioned (Mt 5:32, Mt 19:9) is when the divorcing is happening from the initiation of the husband.  

You have to take what both Matthew and Mark said together.  Mk 10:12 says a woman can put her husband away and MT 19:9 says fornicaton is the only reason for divorce and remarriage.

It seems your suggesting that a woman cannot put her husband away.  If Mk 10:12 does not allow for a woman to put her husband away, then that would mean Mk 10:11 does not allow for a husband to put his wife away, right?  But that would contradict Mt 19:9 but the bible does not contradict itself.

No - He was only talking about the coruppted process of divorce being used in that day. A woman who wished to divorce would petition a rabbinic court (bet din) and give just reason for divorcement.  They would rule one way or the other. If she was successful, the husband would be required by the court to issue her a divorce certificate (get).  

There is no scriptural allowance for a wife to directly divorce her husband.

[DaveW]

I heard a lesbian tell me "The bible only says it is wrong for a man to have sex with another man, it never says it is a sin for a woman to have sex with another woman"

That is true if you are ONLY looking at the OT. 

THe ONLY place lesbianism is forbidden is in Romans:

Rom 1.26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

[DaveW]

Well of course you are wrong because adultery is included in the word 'pornea' that Jesus himself uses, which means sexual sin.

Did you read my post #14??

[Memphis Dwight]

Christ did not use the generic 'he' which sometimes means a man or a woman as in Mark 16:16. 

Christ used 'whosoever' regarding the MAN who would divorce HIS wife, not for fornication, and marries another, commits adultery. 

Christ did not say, whosoever shall put away his or her spouse... those are neutral gender words not used in the divorce sayings. 

If Christ's words were meant to be understood as gender neutral, He would not have had to mention a woman divorcing her husband, Mark 10. 

Whosoever (in Mt 19:9) is referring to a man divorcing his wife...   

In no place in the bible is it said that a woman can 1) divorce her husband.  2) Much less for fornication.

A woman can petition her husband for divorce.  I think the basic principles as to how it would be moral are laid out in Exodus 21:11.  Also if a christian woman is married to a nonbeliever and he does not want to be married to her anymore she is not obligated to stay in it.  1 Cor 7:15

[Memphis Dwight]

THe ONLY place lesbianism is forbidden is in Romans:

Rom 1.26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

That is not referring to lesbianism. 
Women exchanging the natural function refers going from  procreative sex with men (vaginal) to non-procreative sex with men (anal). 

[cs80918]

I heard a lesbian tell me "The bible only says it is wrong for a man to have sex with another man, it never says it is a sin for a woman to have sex with another woman"

That is true if you are ONLY looking at the OT. 

THe ONLY place lesbianism is forbidden is in Romans:

Rom 1.26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

The OT says it is an abomination for a man to lie with a another man.  In plain English it means it is a sin to have homosexual sex, whether it is male or female.

Men are not the only ones who can be sinners.

[Memphis Dwight]

I'm certainly not advocating what has come to be known as lesbianism.  But if I'm being completely sincere in my studying of the bible, I have to conclude that there is no passage indicating that two women cannot share some type of contact.  

If we look at the specs of the book of Leviticus, we have God including the woman in certain prohibitions, such as bestiality.  
Lev 18:23:
Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it [is] confusion.
-
But what we don't have is a corresponding passage when referring to the male lying with a male.  We don't have any verse in the bible that says a woman shall not lie with another woman.  

Lets make one thing clear: This is certainly worth our curiosity to look into and not something to just ignore.  Ignoring it will only give more fuel to the skeptics and the atheists that make the charge that believers and christians are inconsistent.  

[DaveW]

Leviticus 20:13 If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

I do not think that could reasonably be stretched into "...If there is a woman who lies with a female as ..." without doing damage to the plain meaning of the text.

There are different words for man as opposed to woman (ish = man and  ishah = woman) and man (adam) as opposed to animal. It is interesting that in this verse it first uses ish and then for 'male' uses not ish but zakar, which indicates maleness of either human or animal.

[Shodan]

As someone said, there are a lot of opinions.  But there is also a lot of clarity in the Bible.

In the OT it is clear: An adulterer was stoned and the spouse was free to remarry.


This is the common background of the NT. The 'exceptive' clause is not given in Mark simply because this OT background was so familiar that it did not need elaboration.

[Obviously, Christians rejected the stoning based on Jesus' example but they upheld His affirmation of the OT teaching about marriage.]

Bantering about the definition of Greek words is one of those areas where "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"(Pope).  The key to a word's meaning is its context more than its root. The context of porneia in Matthew is, again, this familiar OT background.  The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states, "The so-called 'exceptive clauses' in Matt. 5:32 and 19:9 permit divorces on the grounds of porneia, a term which includes adultery and any kind of illegitimate sexual intercourse....porneia may well have been used instead of mocheia to cover all the sexual offences listen in Lev. 18 (cf. Acts 15:20,29)."

When the Pharisees asked Jesus, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?," Jesus apeals to the institution of marriage from creation and says, "Therefore, what God has joined together, let not man separate." [He then emphasizes that there is only one reason, porneia (which of course is the Greek word used by Matthew, not His Aramaic word).]

The Pharisees respond, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce?"
And Jesus says,  "for your hardness of heart..." and then gives the command about divorce (Matt. 19). 

The OT background of the certificate of divorce was that the hard-hearted were already divorcing their wives.  The certificate was commanded for the protection of the wife who had been wronged.  Without it she was left in limbo and destitute.  With the certificate, the husband was not allowed to change his whims and call her back.  She was free to remarry.

Some Christians have been prone to figuratively stone both parties. In reaction to this, the pendulum swung to the opporsite extreme where nothing is said about adultery and adulterous remarriages in many churches today.

[Teresa]

I think that most people (including me)used to get so fed up with all the arguing on the subject, and all the condemnation that was leveled at those who didn't agree with them, or those who were, like me, divorced and very happily remarried. I think its best left alone in my opinion because some people are so entrenched in their views, no matter what the Bible says, that is it pointless arguing or discussing or producing verses.
If you ask 20 Christians what they believe on this subject, you will probably get 20 different answers. Each of us need to make sure that we are at peace with God with what we ourselves believe (as I am) and what others say really isn't important.

It seems strange that Christians can think that we should let everyone think what they like and do what they please in total disregard and contravention of what Christ taught.

Perhaps what Christ said does not count for much at all.

If so, why bother calling ourselves Christians if we can disregarding willy nilly a very explicit command from the God we claim to love and follow.  So it seems it is not about following Christ but more a case of following the self.  We obey Christ if it suits us but when what He commands is rather incovenient, we turf it.  In reality then, the self - not Christ -  is God.

Peace and All Good.

Teresa

[Memphis Dwight]

Teresa,
the problem that exists in the subject of marriage and divorce is that there has been a stubbornness on the part of some when it comes to defining the terms involved in the discussion.  
The sin of adultery has been reconfigured and without the authorization of the Lord.  The concept of fornication has been changed as well.  
But not only that, common sense in interpreting the so-called MDR passages has been tossed aside too.  
Bottom line is that the notion of marriage being a sacrament has saturated the collective mindset to the point where its as if we are at the tower of babel and babbling about.  No one about to communicate because of foreign concepts in the mind and vain imaginations.  The strong delusion.