The Thing I Greatly Feared

[gospel]

For the thing which I greatly feared has come upon me, and that which I was afraid of has come unto me. Job 3:25

Many people have come to the conclusion that God causes us to go through hardships and affliction to teach and train us, to make us stronger or punish us

Job declared by his own words that he had been living in fear, so much fear that he described it as GREAT fear!

By his own words he we know that he was always afraid, living in fear continually that what eventually happened would happen

Fear belongs to Satan, it is the opposite of Faith

Being afraid is a state of being, its a negative emotion, it's the end result of fear,
an emotion, that moves us to do things we would not normally do

Bottom line fear is from Satan, not God.

God counted Job as a righteous man. That does not mean he was perfect, it means he was in good standing with God, having favor with God.

In the same way, we of the New Covenant are counted righteous unto God, yet we are not perfect.

Like Job we have areas of weakness and some of the things we embrace are not of God

Job being counted as righteous to God, did not stop Satan from recognizing the fear in Job's life which belonged to him.

This is why Satan believed he could cause Job to turn his back on God

To Satan the thing Job greatly feared and the thing that Job was afraid of was an indication of weakness which Satan thought he could exploit to Job's destruction

He was wrong

Your thoughts?

[larry2]

Daer Gospel, it appears that God initiated the test of Job, regardless of Job's fear. If we are God's workmanship (Ephesians 2:10) to be conformed into the very image of His Son, suffering is a very real part of that molding.

Job 1:8.  "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

1 Peter 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
 
In fact, Satan could not touch Job without God's permission, thus begins God's work in Job allowing Satan to be the tool used.

Job 1:9-10  Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10  Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
 
We read of Paul in Philippians 3:8. "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ." Was fear the thing that brought this suffering?

Romans 8:17  ". .  joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

[gospel]

Thanks for your response

I know that is the common understanding Bro larry2, however in that understanding there is quite a lot that is often overlooked

But I would suggest that

One very key point quite often overlooked is this....

Satan has access to God....the question is why?

The answer is

As the Accused and Condemned

Satan is The Accuser of the brethern

for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. Revelations 12:10

As the Accuser, before God's final judgment against him is rendered, before his sentence is imposed upon him, Satan has a legal right to come before God making accusations against all mankind, but..... he only does it one person at a time

The question is what can he accuse us of?

The answer is being like him, rebellious, disobedient and in violation of God's righteous standards

In other words anything we think, feel, say or do that is similar to anything in Satan's character and not of God, is fodder for him to use as an accusation against us to God,

in essence saying to God...

What about him, look at her, look at them, they're just like me, their guilty too so if I am condemned to eternal damnation, and you are Just in all your ways as you say  to be fair, to be just, if I am condemned, they should be too!

Now that leads to the the thing that Satan noticed about Job was fear. Fear does not belong to God, it belongs to Satan, he recognizes it because it's his.

Not only does he recognize it, he uses it to manipulate us, through our emotions, getting us to do things we would not do otherwise except for that thing which we embrace that is his....

Basically he reaches out and touches that which is his. Keep in mind Job openly and solemnly admitted to being in afraid and in the grip of fear.

His words, not mine

The reason Jesus could not sin and could not be moved to do anything outside of the Character of God is because nothing within Jesus belonged to Satan.

There was nothing in Jesus Satan could touch but that is not true for the rest of us.

No fear, guilt, shame, pride, deceit lust of the world, nothing in Jesus that Satan could touch and use against Him

Jesus was perfectly blameless...Job like the rest of us was not

John 14:30

"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
NASB

"After this I will not be speaking much with you, for The Prince of the world is coming and he has nothing to use against me.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)

That is not true for the rest of us. We do have things in us that belong to Satan SO

Yes God does allow Satan to test us, but it is always based on a legality, in that way God is just, because in His Justice even Satan is judged justly while man is given the opportunity and the time to be justified in Christ.

In Job's case fear and being afraid caused him to act in a religious manner toward God, every day burning sacrifices for fear that his children were sinning.

His religious activity was motivated by fear and that is what Satan recognized and that was the basis on which he believed he could cause Job to forsake God.

Most important, that was the legal basis on which God allowed the testing.

The good news is God already knew Job would pass the testing of Satan

More sobering to understand is God knows whenever He brags on any of us people, Satan is coming to test them to try to prove Him wrong

That is the character of Satan and God knows it only too well

So God brags on Jesus

"You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.

[larry2]

Jesus learned obedience. Hebrews 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered. 

Jesus was tempted. Matthew 4:1. Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Hebrews 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
 
Does it make sense that Jesus, in order to be the overcomer of sin must be tested? Does it align with the word of God that we too must follow and associate ourselves with His example?

No longer your own. 1 Corinthians 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? We belong to God, and it does not appear what we shall be, but we know that we are never forsaken subject to Satan's accusations against us. Satan was whipped from before the foundation of the world, and that which he brings against us is by permission only, and then all things work together for good for us which believe.

You may have already read the following pamphlet discussing Christian sufferings, and their purpose, but if not here are the links.

Christian Sufferings Links Parts One & Two
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/christian-sufferings-part-one-of-two/msg5

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/christian-sufferings-part-two-of-two/

Blessings in Jesus' name.

[gospel]

Jesus learned obedience. Hebrews 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.  

Lets focus in on this verse...

Tell us

What did Jesus suffer? What does that actually mean to you?

[candy]

One of the amazing things about God is that He knows us better than we know ourselves.  I believe when we are under trial and persecution in this world, our Lord knows exactly what we need to grow further and develop in us in the character of His son.  If we could stand away from the persecution a little bit and ask what is God trying to show me with this, it may help us undergo the trial easier.  As with Satan and his demons, God also knows how to use them as well.  Our feelings are not proper judges of the righteousness of God.  We are emotional and not all knowing.  God is everything perfect as is His son, our Lord and Savior.  Let us walk in faith knowing He will never forsake us instead of succumb to Satan by living in fear.  Gospel, you are correct in that faith is the polar opposite of fear and let's remember our home is waiting for us in heaven and is not here in this world.
Candy

[larry2]

Other than the obvious that Jesus took our place on that cross, Isaiah 53:3 says, "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

Was this due to fear on Jesus' part? Hebrews 2:10. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Maybe you can throw light on what you're looking for.

[gospel]

Other than the obvious that Jesus took our place on that cross, Isaiah 53:3 says, "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

Was this due to fear on Jesus' part? Hebrews 2:10. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Maybe you can throw light on what you're looking for.

As you probably realized when you were putting your response together, aside from the point where Jesus laid His Life down to face the Cross, there is really nothing we can say Jesus suffered

As humans, we make the mistake of equating our suffering with His, yet none of us will ever suffer the sin of the world being lain upon us

More than that, Jesus was without sin and so He suffered being made sin having the sin of the world lain upon Him

That is not something we can suffer for we already know sin

Point is Jesus suffering specifically relates to Him laying down His deity. That is suffering He endured.

The author of Life, tasting death.

He who Knew No Sin, taking our sin upon himself He Learned through Obedience what it felt like to be forsaken from Deity and that by choosing to subject himself to the expression of sin....evil

Again, that was only after the point of laying His life own life down in the Garden of Gethsemane.

For before that no man could touch Him to harm Him, no man could take His life

So he learned obedience to death is the point I am trying to make

Focusing on the suffering of Jesus is well intended but misdirected, because His suffering was for us...while ours is for our own selves, for we cannot even choose to take anyone's sin to the cross not even our own

Job's suffering was for Job and not from God but from Satan who was trying to prove God wrong about Job

Job suffered losing everything He had by affliction

Jesus chose to forsake everything He had in heaven by choice,

in obedience to the mission at hand

Redemption

to relieve us from the suffering we endure from Satan

Fear, guilt, shame, worldly lusts, greed, envy , jealousy none of which Jesus suffered having none of it within Him

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Are you back on this point again, gospel?  Still don't believe that Jesus suffered in the same way we all do?  Even though the Bible clearly says the opposite (as larry has already pointed out)?

[gospel]

Are you back on this point again, gospel?  Still don't believe that Jesus suffered in the same way we all do?  Even though the Bible clearly says the opposite (as larry has already pointed out)?

larry2 pointed out how he believed Jesus suffered

I pointed out how Jesus suffering is not comparable to ours and it is wrong to presume it means the same thing

So how about you Jarrod

How do you think Jesus suffered

Did He live His life struggling and suffering with sexual lusts?

Did He live His life struggling and suffering with deceit and lying?

How about pride?

Did Jesus live His suffering from fear?

Was Jesus ever sick?

Was Jesus ever without food to eat?

Was He destitute and impoverished?

Was there something that Jesus wanted that He could not get?

Was there something that Jesus needed that He did not have?

Was there something that Jesus wanted to achieve that He could not accomplish?

Before He laid down His life

Did anyone ever hit Him, beat Him up or lay a finger on Him to do Him harm?

Tell us ...just how did Jesus suffer?

[candy]

Jesus never had a sin nature like we do.  He chose to lay down His life for us.  Our life before Him is already death from our separation from God.  Our choice is to accept Him or not.  I believe that the suffering of Jesus was the deepest pain and agony that can be faced.  He suffered brutally physically and certainly emotionally being separated from the Father for the first time.  I don't believe any of us can conceive what this was like.  Think of all the sins of humanity, past, present, and future were bore by Him.  Not only the sins, but all the emotions and everything else that goes with sin.  Don't forget the three dark hours that the Father put all of it on Him.
Candy

[gospel]

Jesus never had a sin nature like we do.  He chose to lay down His life for us.  Our life before Him is already death from our separation from God.  Our choice is to accept Him or not.  I believe that the suffering of Jesus was the deepest pain and agony that can be faced.  He suffered brutally physically and certainly emotionally being separated from the Father for the first time.  I don't believe any of us can conceive what this was like.  Think of all the sins of humanity, past, present, and future were bore by Him.  Not only the sins, but all the emotions and everything else that goes with sin.  Don't forget the three dark hours that the Father put all of it on Him.
Candy

Yes Candy and that's what I'm getting at and trying to establish

His suffering was much different than ours and in no way comparable to ours.

In addition none of His suffering began until He laid His life down, at the appointed time, in the Garden, allowing Himself to be arrested and subjected to treatment of evil men, who were in fact agents, acting on behalf of Satan

Before that sin, evil and the consequences of it could not touch Him or those He loved

Lazarus whom He loved died, Jesus raised Him

A storm came and sent the disciples into fear and panic, Jesus calmed it

People were hungry Jesus multiplied loaves and fishes

Sickness and death could not abide in His Presence

This means that Jesus did not even have to suffer the effects or consequences of sin and death, for they could not even abide in His Presence

C'mon JESUS!!!!  

[candy]

Thank you Gospel.  Sin could not abide in His presence unless He permitted it.  Thank you Jesus for laying down your life for us and taking the punishment we deserved.    How can we even think we'd know what that is like.  He truly is the great I AM.
Candy

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Are you back on this point again, gospel?  Still don't believe that Jesus suffered in the same way we all do?  Even though the Bible clearly says the opposite (as larry has already pointed out)?

larry2 pointed out how he believed Jesus suffered

I pointed out how Jesus suffering is not comparable to ours and it is wrong to presume it means the same thing

So how about you Jarrod

How do you think Jesus suffered

Did He live His life struggling and suffering with sexual lusts?

Did He live His life struggling and suffering with deceit and lying?

How about pride?

Did Jesus live His suffering from fear?

Was Jesus ever sick?

Was Jesus ever without food to eat?

Was He destitute and impoverished?

Was there something that Jesus wanted that He could not get?

Was there something that Jesus needed that He did not have?

Was there something that Jesus wanted to achieve that He could not accomplish?

Before He laid down His life

Did anyone ever hit Him, beat Him up or lay a finger on Him to do Him harm?

Tell us ...just how did Jesus suffer?

You will not believe me.  Perhaps you will believe the good book:

Hebrews 4:15 - For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

[JohnDB]

Hey Jarrod,

Some people just like the sound of their own voice and keyboard as if it is always inspired...never mind the fact that actually it was probably tougher on Jesus than any one of us have ever or will ever face.

If I was Jesus the temptation to let a few people have that lightning bolt of Justice...

and the answer to Gospel's many questions is YES...Jesus was regularly tested, tempted and had things that He wanted but couldn't have.

Prostitutes weren't ugly. (that only is true in America) And yet all them prostitutes followed Jesus. Oh Im sure there was some temptation there.

turning stones into bread?

After one glass of wine I woulda smoked the planet and been done with the whole affair. What did I have to prove to a bunch of schmucks that cant get a clue to begin with? Is precisely what I would think of all these humans that I had created.

NO...Jesus had it much rougher and tougher than any of us can imagine and overcame all of that...and then some. 

[Glorious]

A suffering is a thing allowed by a person or forced upon a person to bring about an experience.

By suffering, a person can either learn obedience or disobedience. Jesus allowed all that the Father had commanded in order to bring about the experience of salvation. He is the Captain (note the word captain that can be the same as skipper) of our Salvation.

Every temptation potentially bears a type of suffering. We allow (or it can be forced upon us) elements of a temptation unto disobedience.

God does not tempt anyone. Jesus could only be tempted by man or other agents. He did not allow elements of temptation while being tempted and nobody or agent could force elements of temptation on Him.

However, He suffered unto experiencing those things commanded Him by the Father. He did only the will of God, period. It is/was/will be by this kind of suffering that He captains our salvation.


The Thing I Greatly Feared - by Job who lived in the land of Uz

Job 3:25-26  For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

What did the perfect and upright Job fear? He feared trouble.... he feared tribulation.... he'd rather have "slept" in the rest of the Lord (see Job 3:13) than experience tribulation and great tribulation.

Job personifies a perfect and upright saint who is alive to experience the tribulation and great tribulation of the last days. No saint wants such experience; indeed, every saint dreads that thought of that day even as Mark 13:20 declares: And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Scripture clearly gives that Job was an upright man. He could not have been upright without the faith of Christ imputing righteousness unto him. It is not recorded that he lost his faith (that imputes righteousness) given him by God. Rather, Scripture gives that Job had integrity all the way through despite two brutal encounters with loss of all things he had and with painful sores. If so, how is his fear of trouble (fear of tribulation) the opposite of faith?

Job 2:9-10 declares: Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

From above scripture, Job's integrity is unquestionable and unshaken. Job is of a strong mindset/worldview that if he receives good from God and can retain unto life, he can receive evil and overcome. One thing is established about Job: he is perfect (complete, whole) and unshakable in the faith that gave him righteousness.

Perfection of Christ does not exclude the temporary suffering of loss or the temporary experience of physical pain; Job was perfect, yet suffered he loss and was subsequently rewarded with twofold restoration.

[gospel]

Hey Jarrod,

Some people just like the sound of their own voice and keyboard as if it is always inspired...

Modified for FLAMING

never mind the fact that actually it was probably tougher on Jesus than any one of us have ever or will ever face.

There it is there and...
THAT my friend is the entire kit and caboodle of the point I was trying to make

Not only was the suffering of Jesus prophesied, it was purposeful in a way your and my suffering could never be and was in fact the key component of God's Plan for Redemption
So again...
Comparing Jesus suffering to our own is like comparing Jesus Baptism to our own which...sadly some of you do on a regular basis.

For the same point I am trying to make applies to baptism...

Jesus was in fact Baptized for an entirely different reason than other people and no amount of aught, sarcasm or snide remarks can change that fact.

The problem with our understanding is usually a result of not learning to understand the bible in the Light of Redemption and if we do not learn it from that perspective we will always find it difficult to understand certain key points such as why Jesus was baptized or the difference between His suffering and our own

If I was Jesus the temptation to let a few people have that lightning bolt of Justice.

That is why you are not, you have to resist and fight the inner temptation to hate, hurt and fight others because you like all of us have hatred and vengeance in our hearts....Jesus did not!

Nothing in Jesus belonged to Satan...NOTHING!


"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
John 14:30
NASB

"After this I will not be speaking much with you, for The Prince of the world is coming and he has nothing to use against me.
John 14:30
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)

This literally means Jesus had no hatred at all within His Heart so what is amazing about Jesus is He was not feigning love, He literally loved those who hated and despised Him so much so, He died for them too!

For Jesus the meaning of "love your enemy" was not figurative but a literal reality in which He walked and lived

and the answer to Gospel's many questions is YES...Jesus was regularly tested, tempted and had things that He wanted but couldn't have.
Prostitutes weren't ugly. (that only is true in America) And yet all them prostitutes followed Jesus. Oh Im sure there was some temptation there.

Oh my God! You really stepped into it this time!

Are you actually asserting that Jesus harbored adulterous thoughts in His heart?

So you believe Jesus was literally like all of us, full of the things of this world fighting against the enticement of those evil things in His heart? WOW!  

Allow me to share a few things with you which make it absolutely plain and clear to you why that is totally and unequivocally incorrect


but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28

Do you realize this statement of Jesus makes, you, me and every man who reads it guilty of adultery?

As tasteful as that may be for any man to accept

You have included Jesus among us!

Having read that verse
Are you saying Jesus was like any ol' preacher, preaching and pontificating against adultery while fighting it Himself?  

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.Matthew 15:19

Having read that
Are you asserting that Jesus, like all people had these things within His heart and like all people had to fight the inner urge to do these things?

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. James 1:14

Having read that
Are you asserting Jesus had His own evil desires within Him but what made Him The Christ was unlike us He was able to say no those desires?

Hopefully you answered no to all of the above.

For dear friend...
The Lord we serve He is God, therefore Jesus being God cannot be tempted nor does He tempt!

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
James 1:13

turning stones into bread?

Satan was trying to tempt Jesus, but Jesus by virtue of being full of the Holy Spirit, The Spirit of God, Himself verily God there is nothing in Jesus that belongs to Satan.
What is being missed here is Satan was TRYING to tempt, ATTEMPTING to tempt Jesus which is different than Jesus Himself feeling tempted as if He is fighting against obeying Satan. Read the passage very carefully you can clearly see that in none of His responses to Satan was any indication that Jesus was struggling, sweating, wrestling or fighting to make the right choice.

His Character is Righteousness for He Himself is Righteousness, He is the antithesis of Satan and nothing in Him belongs to Satan or the World

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:16

Jesus is God, nothing that belongs to the world belongs to Jesus

After one glass of wine I woulda smoked the planet and been done with the whole affair. What did I have to prove to a bunch of schmucks that cant get a clue to begin with? Is precisely what I would think of all these humans that I had created.

Clearly that's only an indication of a personal inner struggle of your own

NO...Jesus had it much rougher and tougher than any of us can imagine and overcame all of that...and then some.  

On that note I thank God I can close my response in perfect agreement with you, for no one but Jesus who knew not sin was made sin for all mankind and the sins of the world

And that my friend is the entire point I've been trying to make about His suffering compared to ours...

There is NO comparison!

[gospel]

A suffering is a thing allowed by a person or forced upon a person to bring about an experience.

By suffering, a person can either learn obedience or disobedience. Jesus allowed all that the Father had commanded in order to bring about the experience of salvation. He is the Captain (note the word captain that can be the same as skipper) of our Salvation.

Every temptation potentially bears a type of suffering. We allow (or it can be forced upon us) elements of a temptation unto disobedience.

God does not tempt anyone. Jesus could only be tempted by man or other agents. He did not allow elements of temptation while being tempted and nobody or agent could force elements of temptation on Him.

However, He suffered unto experiencing those things commanded Him by the Father. He did only the will of God, period. It is/was/will be by this kind of suffering that He captains our salvation.


The Thing I Greatly Feared - by Job who lived in the land of Uz

Job 3:25-26  For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

What did the perfect and upright Job fear? He feared trouble.... he feared tribulation.... he'd rather have "slept" in the rest of the Lord (see Job 3:13) than experience tribulation and great tribulation.

Job personifies a perfect and upright saint who is alive to experience the tribulation and great tribulation of the last days. No saint wants such experience; indeed, every saint dreads that thought of that day even as Mark 13:20 declares: And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Scripture clearly gives that Job was an upright man. He could not have been upright without the faith of Christ imputing righteousness unto him. It is not recorded that he lost his faith (that imputes righteousness) given him by God. Rather, Scripture gives that Job had integrity all the way through despite two brutal encounters with loss of all things he had and with painful sores. If so, how is his fear of trouble (fear of tribulation) the opposite of faith?

Job 2:9-10 declares: Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

From above scripture, Job's integrity is unquestionable and unshaken. Job is of a strong mindset/worldview that if he receives good from God and can retain unto life, he can receive evil and overcome. One thing is established about Job: he is perfect (complete, whole) and unshakable in the faith that gave him righteousness.

Perfection of Christ does not exclude the temporary suffering of loss or the temporary experience of physical pain; Job was perfect, yet suffered he loss and was subsequently rewarded with twofold restoration.

You've made some very, very insightful and astute remarks, especially about suffering...thanks!

I am both impressed and spiritually moved by some of your comments...hats off and manna to you!

Now to reiterate my point about Job's fear, all I'm trying to say is this,

Job though a righteous man, was still just a man, like ourselves, like every man, a believer, like every believer and as such NOT perfect in himself as was Our Lord Jesus

That said, the one chink in his armor so to speak, is the one Satan sought to exploit and that in itself was the basis on which Satan "believed", albeit wrongly, that he could cause Job to curse God

That was

Fear, dread of bad things that could possibly come

This is why when you read the story you see the first evil report occurred exactly in the manner Job had feared

Job 1:13 One day when Job's sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother's house,

Immediately upon leaving the presence of God, The timing by which Satan attacked Job was perfectly related to the area in which Job had feared

While his children were feasting, this is the very reason Job feared bad things and the very reason he offered up sacrifices everyday  

Now lets look at this hypothetically for a sec...

If that had occurred to an unfaithful man, a man less righteous than Job, that man would have immediately cursed God.

Why?

...because a less faithful man would have felt betrayed by God, having prayed everyday, offering sacrifices to God everyday, worshiping God everyday and God still let this happen to me!

See the point I'm getting at?

Satan's first attempt was to try to make Job believe praying to Go, worshiping God offering up sacrifices to God was a waste of time

I'll leave it there for now

Thanks again for such a thoughtful response

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Are you actually asserting that Jesus harbored adulterous thoughts in His heart?

So you believe Jesus was literally like all of us, full of the things of this world fighting against the enticement of those evil things in His heart? WOW!

You really don't seem to understand.  There is a marked difference between "harboring adulterous thoughts" and "I have a healthy libido."

Someday, I hope you come to understand that all enticement is predicated upon the normal appetites of the body, and not upon some perversion of mind.

Jarrod

[gospel]

Are you actually asserting that Jesus harbored adulterous thoughts in His heart?

So you believe Jesus was literally like all of us, full of the things of this world fighting against the enticement of those evil things in His heart? WOW!

You really don't seem to understand.  There is a marked difference between "harboring adulterous thoughts" and "I have a healthy libido."

Someday, I hope you come to understand that all enticement is predicated upon the normal appetites of the body, and not upon some perversion of mind.

Jarrod

Jarrod ...

The best thing I can say to you is that

In this case you should try to stick to scripture and do not allow yourself to fall into the trap of relying on human wisdom and philosophy

This is the wisdom of Proverbs 3:5,6

Do not lean on your own understanding

In ALL your ways acknowledge Him

So in this regard

The Word of God in the bible as spoken by Jesus is preeminent

and Jesus said

If we look upon a woman to lust after her my friend is an indication of the sin within us

Whether we act upon it or not,

And even if we do not act upon it

It should at least serve to keep us humble in regards to our humanity as a reminder that there are still things within our heart that do not belong to God

Which is why we need Jesus

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Are you actually asserting that Jesus harbored adulterous thoughts in His heart?

So you believe Jesus was literally like all of us, full of the things of this world fighting against the enticement of those evil things in His heart? WOW!

You really don't seem to understand.  There is a marked difference between "harboring adulterous thoughts" and "I have a healthy libido."

Someday, I hope you come to understand that all enticement is predicated upon the normal appetites of the body, and not upon some perversion of mind.

Jarrod

Jarrod ...

The best thing I can say to you is that

In this case you should try to stick to scripture and do not allow yourself to fall into the trap of relying on human wisdom and philosophy

This is the wisdom of Proverbs 3:5,6

Do not lean on your own understanding

In ALL your ways acknowledge Him

So in this regard

The Word of God in the bible as spoken by Jesus is preeminent

and Jesus said

If we look upon a woman to lust after her my friend is an indication of the sin within us

Whether we act upon it or not,

And even if we do not act upon it

It should at least serve to keep us humble in regards to our humanity as a reminder that there are still things within our heart that do not belong to God

Which is why we need Jesus

Are you actually asserting that Jesus had no libido, and was not tempted sexually at any point?  That He was not "tempted in all ways like as we are?"

[gospel]

Are you actually asserting that Jesus harbored adulterous thoughts in His heart?

So you believe Jesus was literally like all of us, full of the things of this world fighting against the enticement of those evil things in His heart? WOW!

You really don't seem to understand.  There is a marked difference between "harboring adulterous thoughts" and "I have a healthy libido."

Someday, I hope you come to understand that all enticement is predicated upon the normal appetites of the body, and not upon some perversion of mind.

Jarrod

Jarrod ...

The best thing I can say to you is that

In this case you should try to stick to scripture and do not allow yourself to fall into the trap of relying on human wisdom and philosophy

This is the wisdom of Proverbs 3:5,6

Do not lean on your own understanding

In ALL your ways acknowledge Him

So in this regard

The Word of God in the bible as spoken by Jesus is preeminent

and Jesus said

If we look upon a woman to lust after her my friend is an indication of the sin within us

Whether we act upon it or not,

And even if we do not act upon it

It should at least serve to keep us humble in regards to our humanity as a reminder that there are still things within our heart that do not belong to God

Which is why we need Jesus

Are you actually asserting that Jesus had no libido, and was not tempted sexually at any point?  That He was not "tempted in all ways like as we are?"

I'm doing more than asserting and I am aghast that as knowledgeable and intellectually astute as I have come to believe you are that you would interpret Jesus being tempted in all points on such a novice like level of understanding as that!

After I have posted at least 6 scripture verses to support my understanding,the fact that you are attempting to reason with me totally on the basis of human wisdom is an indication that you are attempting to ignore the scriptures I have posted.

But even on the basis of reason, as I have stated on numerous occasions, to be tempted of Satan does not imply or indicate a weakness or presence of sin in Jesus, it simply means Satan TRIED to tempt Jesus, hence Jesus was tempted.

However you seem to be inferring that Jesus was tempted within Himself to obey Satan and that my friend is utter nonsense!

You seem to be indicating that Jesus was struggling with sin, fighting inner urges, fighting seduction and enticement and that dear friend is a total mis-characterization of Jesus and who He Is

Again I'll repost those verses and even add a few that support my claims in hopes that this time you will will reflect and meditate upon them and include your understanding of them as the basis of your ensuing response


Nothing in Jesus belonged to Satan...NOTHING!


"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
John 14:30
NASB

"After this I will not be speaking much with you, for The Prince of the world is coming and he has nothing to use against me.
John 14:30
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)

This literally means Jesus had no hatred at all within His Heart so what is amazing about Jesus is He was not feigning love, He literally loved those who hated and despised Him so much so, He died for them too!

For Jesus the meaning of "love your enemy" was not figurative but a literal reality in which He walked and lived


but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28

Do you realize that according to this verse your opinion makes Jesus guilty of adultery?

Having read that verse
Are you saying Jesus was like any ol' preacher, preaching and pontificating against adultery while fighting it Himself?  

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.Matthew 15:19

Having read that
Are you asserting that Jesus, like all people had these things within His heart and like all people had to fight the inner urge to do these things?


but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. James 1:14

Having read that
Are you asserting Jesus had His own evil desires within Him but what made Him The Christ was unlike us He was able to say no those desires?

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
James 1:13

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:16

Jesus is God, nothing that belongs to the world belongs to Jesus

The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

Jesus was always the Lamb of God, He came to earth as the Lamb of God, He didn't pass a test to become the Lamb of God

He was Always Perfect, Always Flawless, Always without Spot Or Blemish, Pure undefiled Incorruptible, Knowing No sin, Blameless, Righteous, The Holy One of God...that is why He Came

Even the demons knew that much!


"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"Matthew 8:29

Even they knew Jesus came to fulfill an appointed time, culminating in an unfolding of God's Master Plan to destroy the Power of Satan and Redeem mankind back to Himself

Egads folks...Jesus was God's Word wrapped in flesh!

JESUS WAS FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, HAVING THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE

This means

His human nature was in
COMPLETE AND TOTAL SUBMISSION TO HIS DIVINE NATURE ACCORDING TO THE POWER THAT WORKED WITHIN HIM

That is our example and what we are to learn from Jesus

How to be FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!

How to subjugate our libido and every aspect of our human nature bringing it into complete, total and perfect submission to the Will of God according to the Divine Nature that is working within us!

[Bitter Sweet]

This is telling man to enjoy himself with a healthy libido. Jesus doesn't want men to be impotent.

Proverbs 5:15 Drink water from your own cistern,
  running water from your own well.
16 Should your springs overflow in the streets,
  your streams of water in the public squares?
17 Let them be yours alone,
  never to be shared with strangers.
18 May your fountain be blessed,
  and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.

[gospel]

This is telling man to enjoy himself with a healthy libido. Jesus doesn't want men to be impotent.

Proverbs 5:15 Drink water from your own cistern,
  running water from your own well.
16 Should your springs overflow in the streets,
  your streams of water in the public squares?
17 Let them be yours alone,
  never to be shared with strangers.
18 May your fountain be blessed,
  and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.

With our wives Bittersweet

However a healthy libido focused towards the office secretary, the girl next door, Playboy magazine and internet porn

are adulterous

Despite that though my main point is

Jesus did not harbor or struggle against adultery in His Heart

[Bitter Sweet]

I don't know about the majority of men but I know there are men that aren't tempted to go hide in the bathroom for a few minutes after seeing a naked woman. I don't think it's that big of a struggle for a man that loves his wife either.

My husband was raised with naked women on TV, there isn't the same censorship in Europe. When it isn't taboo to see a naked woman, then men aren't going to find them as erotic as they do when it is taboo.

When my husband reads the news from his country online, there are naked women all over the page, but he doesn't get excited from it. When he clicks on them he usually critiques their breasts, even if they are a size he is fond of, he doesn't go masturbate or want to have sex with me. He doesn't hide it from me or look at naked women in secret either.

Why can't it be natural for man to not get excited or commit adultery in his heart?

[JohnDB]

I don't know about the majority of men but I know there are men that aren't tempted to go hide in the bathroom for a few minutes after seeing a naked woman. I don't think it's that big of a struggle for a man that loves his wife either.

My husband was raised with naked women on TV, there isn't the same censorship in Europe. When it isn't taboo to see a naked woman, then men aren't going to find them as erotic as they do when it is taboo.

When my husband reads the news from his country online, there are naked women all over the page, but he doesn't get excited from it. When he clicks on them he usually critiques their breasts, even if they are a size he is fond of, he doesn't go masturbate or want to have sex with me. He doesn't hide it from me or look at naked women in secret either.

Why can't it be natural for man to not get excited or commit adultery in his heart?

It can be.

I dearly love my wife.
I currently work with a woman who is attractive physically. All the guys at work stare at her while we are working and she notices it from time to time and becomes a bit self-conscious of it.  She asks me why everyone is staring and I tell her that it is because she is attractive and that just doesn't happen around here.

But in no way does she or I think of having an affair. She knows that I love my wife dearly. Just as I assume that she loves her husband dearly too.

Granted, there are likely a lot of guys on this job that already are sinning while staring at her work...but I ain't one of them. And I am working right next to her all day.

I have a feeling for Jesus it was something along the same lines. Where He probably noticed a physically attractive woman the concept of actually having a physical, romantic relationship with her was outside the box of what He truly desired.

A fleeting thought that left as soon as it came?
Who wouldn't?
But to obsess over it for hours? Not gonna happen for Jesus or me.

But I ain't Jesus neither. Scriptures prophesied that He was going to be one that was loved by women. And there were a lot of women following him and tending to their daily needs of cooking, clothes mending and etc.

[Bitter Sweet]

It can be.

I dearly love my wife.
I currently work with a woman who is attractive physically. All the guys at work stare at her while we are working and she notices it from time to time and becomes a bit self-conscious of it.  She asks me why everyone is staring and I tell her that it is because she is attractive and that just doesn't happen around here.

But in no way does she or I think of having an affair. She knows that I love my wife dearly. Just as I assume that she loves her husband dearly too.

Granted, there are likely a lot of guys on this job that already are sinning while staring at her work...but I ain't one of them. And I am working right next to her all day.

Thanks John, of course men are going to know a woman is attractive but that doesn't mean they are interested in her beyond that. As far as the other guys go, sounds like they got some maturity issues.

I have a feeling for Jesus it was something along the same lines. Where He probably noticed a physically attractive woman the concept of actually having a physical, romantic relationship with her was outside the box of what He truly desired.

This reminds me of a story my husband once told me. He was out of town working with a group of people, he was at the apartment alone one day with one of his co-workers. She walked around the apartment naked in front of him trying to get his attention. He was more turned off by this and completely ignored her and made her feel stupid. He said she was attractive but when she did that, she didn't look attractive to him anymore.

But I ain't Jesus neither. Scriptures prophesied that He was going to be one that was loved by women. And there were a lot of women following him and tending to their daily needs of cooking, clothes mending and etc.

[gospel]

Point is this....

Johndb is just a man, an ordinary natural born man

Jesus is the Word wrapped in flesh, God in the form of a man

The Lamb of God, Perfect in every way

Spotless and without blemish who knew not sin


So....If Johndb can do it without struggling

Why in the world would anyone presume Jesus, whom had the Spirit without measure would struggle with lust and libido issues?

And Bittersweet if your husband is an atheist as you say and can look upon women without lust in his heart

I'd be daggone if someone can even try to convince me that God the Son was tempted with lust or in anyway fighting a desire to look upon a woman with adultery in His heart



So no Jesus being tempted and Jesus suffering does not mean the same thing for us as it did for Him ...in any way shape or form

Thanks Johndb for helping to make that point and agreeing with me though I think you may not have intended to

Manna to you just the same

[Beta]

   Even though God considered Job a perfect and upright man (from a human angle) he was no saint....yet. Job had a lesson to learn regarding his ' self-righteousness '.
ALL Humans suffer from it and it is a stumblingblock to God. We have to become submissive to His Word and not assume to be right in our own understanding.

Job was no exception and he had a long time of experience to come to his final state , or should I say until God brought him to recognize his despiccable state and lack of 'humility'.

Job 40v4, 'Behold I am vile...what shall I answer thee ? I will lay my hand upon my mouth.' Job finally 'shut up and left off arguing with his friends and with God once he became aware of the vanity of 'self-importance and God's view of it as 'filthy rags'.

Job 42v6,' Wherefore I abhore myself and repent in dust and ashes.'
We must learn to speak the Words of GOD and not our own !

[JohnDB]

Point is this....

Johndb is just a man, an ordinary natural born man

Jesus is the Word wrapped in flesh, God in the form of a man

The Lamb of God, Perfect in every way

Spotless and without blemish who knew not sin


So....If Johndb can do it without struggling

Why in the world would anyone presume Jesus, whom had the Spirit without measure would struggle with lust and libido issues?

And Bittersweet if your husband is an atheist as you say and can look upon women without lust in his heart

I'd be daggone if someone can even try to convince me that God the Son was tempted with lust or in anyway fighting a desire to look upon a woman with adultery in His heart



So no Jesus being tempted and Jesus suffering does not mean the same thing for us as it did for Him ...in any way shape or form

Thanks Johndb for helping to make that point and agreeing with me though I think you may not have intended to

Manna to you just the same

OK..whatever.



Claim victory after proving nothing with what I said.

I am married and regularly perform my husbandly duties so much that it is almost "too much"...it is certainly more than enough. And with that I am so very very content.

BUT

When I was single and unmarried there was a non-stop barrage of temptation always afoot. There are certain types of Churches I knew better than to attend for the knowledge that I would most likely be sinning within two weeks with several different ladies of that congregation.  (and whether I knew the ladies or not)

Especially since I knew precisely the behaviors and attitudes that would indicate the propensity in some ladies for having a physical relationship.  I would know precisely how to present myself and behave and I would be sinning mightily before long.

Soooo...to say that Jesus wasn't tempted the same as you or I is absolutely ludicrous. Jesus was omniscient. He also had the power to "get away with it" in an unknown fashion. (walking on water does have it's advantages)

Jesus is one who intimately knows our weaknesses...because he faced them all himself.

Jesus absolutely overcame them all...in a spankingly wonderful fashion.

And where he may of had fleeting moments of temptation...even sexual temptation...the one temptation that he never really overcame well was the last one outlined in the forty days and nights in the wilderness. To fully reveal himself.

Jesus overcame temptation and sin...to be tempted is not a sin. And it says very plainly that Jesus was tempted...to make light of his real temptations is to deny a core tenant of the faith that we hold dear.

Jesus is Emmanuel...God with us...God as one of us...God going through all the same troubles and trials that we do today....including traffic jams and commuting to and from work and being tired and hungry and angry and frustrated and dealing with jerks who regularly miss the main plain points.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Despite that though my main point is

Jesus did not harbor or struggle against adultery in His Heart

We have a disconnect if you think that's what I'm saying.  I'm just saying, He had a body and it was functional.  And with a functional body comes the tugging of flesh on the mind, even if one chooses against it.

Jarrod

[gospel]

Point is this....

Johndb is just a man, an ordinary natural born man

Jesus is the Word wrapped in flesh, God in the form of a man

The Lamb of God, Perfect in every way

Spotless and without blemish who knew not sin


So....If Johndb can do it without struggling

Why in the world would anyone presume Jesus, whom had the Spirit without measure would struggle with lust and libido issues?

And Bittersweet if your husband is an atheist as you say and can look upon women without lust in his heart

I'd be daggone if someone can even try to convince me that God the Son was tempted with lust or in anyway fighting a desire to look upon a woman with adultery in His heart



So no Jesus being tempted and Jesus suffering does not mean the same thing for us as it did for Him ...in any way shape or form

Thanks Johndb for helping to make that point and agreeing with me though I think you may not have intended to

Manna to you just the same

OK..whatever.



Claim victory after proving nothing with what I said.

I am married and regularly perform my husbandly duties so much that it is almost "too much"...it is certainly more than enough. And with that I am so very very content.

BUT

When I was single and unmarried there was a non-stop barrage of temptation always afoot. There are certain types of Churches I knew better than to attend for the knowledge that I would most likely be sinning within two weeks with several different ladies of that congregation.  (and whether I knew the ladies or not)

Especially since I knew precisely the behaviors and attitudes that would indicate the propensity in some ladies for having a physical relationship.  I would know precisely how to present myself and behave and I would be sinning mightily before long.

Soooo...to say that Jesus wasn't tempted the same as you or I is absolutely ludicrous. Jesus was omniscient. He also had the power to "get away with it" in an unknown fashion. (walking on water does have it's advantages)

Jesus is one who intimately knows our weaknesses...because he faced them all himself.

Jesus absolutely overcame them all...in a spankingly wonderful fashion.

And where he may of had fleeting moments of temptation...even sexual temptation...the one temptation that he never really overcame well was the last one outlined in the forty days and nights in the wilderness. To fully reveal himself.

Jesus overcame temptation and sin...to be tempted is not a sin. And it says very plainly that Jesus was tempted...to make light of his real temptations is to deny a core tenant of the faith that we hold dear.

Jesus is Emmanuel...God with us...God as one of us...God going through all the same troubles and trials that we do today....including traffic jams and commuting to and from work and being tired and hungry and angry and frustrated and dealing with jerks who regularly miss the main plain points.

John in your stringent desire to be right and your adamant zeal to disagree with me in any way possible...

In your response above you have said everything and absolutely nothing at the same time...

While human philosophy, human wisdom may suffices for a brief exchange of ideas so that we can understand each others opinions using our own words...bottom line in the end we must defer to scripture

Nothing in Jesus belonged to Satan...NOTHING!


"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
John 14:30
NASB

"After this I will not be speaking much with you, for The Prince of the world is coming and he has nothing to use against me.
John 14:30
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)

This literally means Jesus had no hatred at all within His Heart so what is amazing about Jesus is He was not feigning love, He literally loved those who hated and despised Him so much so, He died for them too!

It may comfort you to think Jesus may have hated the Pharisees but "somehow" chose to not act upon it but in the end, no matter how you slice it or dice it, it is not scriptural

For Jesus the meaning of "love your enemy" was not figurative but a literal reality in which He walked and lived. It was not just something He preached for unlike you and I

God is Love, Jesus is Love, read 1 Corinthians 13

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.  1 John 4:16

The Divine Nature trumped and ruled over His human nature, there was in fact NO HATRED in His Heart

Similarly Jesus did not harbor adulterous or lustful thoughts in His heart!


but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28

Despite the fact that unlike you and I, Jesus remained single ( minded ) and never married....

unlike you and I

Jesus was not like every man so.... He was never guilty of any sin including lust of the flesh or lust of the eyes or any adulterous thoughts!

Jesus was  not like any ol' preacher, preaching and pontificating against adultery while fighting it Himself!   

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.Matthew 15:19

Jesus, unlike other people did not have these things within His heart and unlike other people did not have to fight the inner urge to do these things!

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. James 1:14

Jesus did not have evil desires within Him, could not be seduced, enticed or tempted because unlike us nothing in Him belonged to Satan

The Lord we serve He is God, therefore Jesus being God cannot be tempted nor does He tempt!

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
James 1:13


Jesus Character is Righteousness for He Himself is Righteousness, He is the antithesis of Satan and nothing in Him belongs to Satan or the World

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:16

Jesus is God, nothing that belongs to the world belongs to Jesus

[gospel]

Despite that though my main point is

Jesus did not harbor or struggle against adultery in His Heart

We have a disconnect if you think that's what I'm saying.  I'm just saying, He had a body and it was functional.  And with a functional body comes the tugging of flesh on the mind, even if one chooses against it.

Jarrod

Jarrod you contradicted yourself in this very statement, using the phrase tugging of His flesh and mind, you're still saying Jesus struggled against inner urges and unholy, un God like desires...

Read the scriptures man!

The inner urges are themselves an indication of sin within, He said it not me!

I'm saying unequivocally Jesus was Pure, Holy and Righteous, not knowing
sin and  having no sin within Him
zero, nada, zilch NOTHING in Him belonged to the world or Satan Nothing!

One of you will have to prove the scriptures wrong in this regard and so far you've just offer personal opinion

Anyway
I don't even understand for the life of me why anyone would want to prove Jesus was anything less than God who came to destroy the works of the devil
....it is very puzzling indeed! 

[OldDad]

Did he leave footprints when he walked or did he sort of hover over the ground?

[gospel]

Did he leave footprints when he walked or did he sort of hover over the ground?

God can in the form of a man, key word FORM, bigger key word GOD!

By the way...

Just for the record

He walked on water, He walked through angry crowds who were trying to kill Him and He also transfigured

In addition He raised the dead, gave sight to the blind and healed lepers with a touch

Moreover Jesus spoke to the wind and the waves commanding them to cease and they obeyed

If that's not enough

He remained completely silent was His body was being beaten to shreds and then asked for forgiveness for those who did it

ONLY GOD could do any of those things