How to please the Lord? - The only way is GRACE

[INJ]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination;

Now I am no one's calvinist.  But what you are saying is based entirely on pagan logic. (Aristotleian) While it works fine for the physical world it has no bearing on matters of faith and spirit.

Even if God specifically chose someone to not be saved (and I do not believe that he does that) it would still be that person's fault and not God's. HE uses a different logic system.

I thought I ought to mention that I am not a calvanist, but I do believe the word of God.

[INJ]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 3:2  ". . all men have not faith. What happened to the measure of faith dealt to them by God?

You might consider the "Parable of the sower" in the gospel of Mark, chapter 4. Mark 4:14-15  The sower soweth the word. 15  And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 12:28  There is little faith, "O ye of little faith?"

Romans 14:1 Some are "weak in the faith."  
 
2 Timothy 1:5  There is "unfeigned faith that is in thee."  

God cannot be blamed for the gift, or the measure of faith we have.

If the only way I can have faith is by God giving faith to me, then God would be to blame if I had no faith.  How can I be blamed for not having faith when having faith would be completely out of my control?  Unbelief is sin, Jn 16:8,9, therefore if God does not give me faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief, then God eternally punishes me in hell for a sin God caused me to commit.  This idea does not fit the loving, merciful, graceful character of the God that the bible describes.

I have already mentioned that faith is a gift of God, as far I believe scripture, just as grace is a gift, just as everything that God gives us is a gift, such as salvation, the air we breath and even life itself.

Now if he gives us faith but we do not have a right heart so that a root is not established (see parable of the sower). If we doubt or have so much fear that that fear is countering the word of God or if we get the wrong end of the stick or presume in error of misunderstand...then this in NOT God's fault. Fear and doubt are based on lies (thoughts contrary to the word of God, God's truth) some would call this spiritual warfare. The enemy comes to steal when we do not understand (again see parable of the sower)

So the enemy wants to steal the word sown....if it is stolen no root. `it is interesting that the seed (word) is sown everywhere. God is not to blame
   

[Jimmy]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination;

Now I am no one's calvinist.  But what you are saying is based entirely on pagan logic. (Aristotleian) While it works fine for the physical world it has no bearing on matters of faith and spirit.

Even if God specifically chose someone to not be saved (and I do not believe that he does that) it would still be that person's fault and not God's. HE uses a different logic system.

I thought I ought to mention that I am not a calvanist, but I do believe the word of God.

I didn't say that you were a Calvinist.  But what you believe is consistant with the erroneous teachings of Calvinism.  And has others have pointed out, the word of God does not say in Eph 2:8 that faith is a gift.

[Jimmy]

God's ways are way above man's.  There are so many variables.  We can please God by being obedient, but I think He looks into the heart of man and knows our condition way better than we do.  Imagine how the Lord sees sin.  He sent His own son to die for us and take on our sin so we could be together with Him again.  Looking at that through sin or love, either way it's too amazing for us to truly comprehend.  I just take God at His word.  It's a lot easier that way.  With God all things are possible, but not with man.
Candy

Candy, please don't give us some of your random thoughts and then tell us the reason we don't understand you is because "God's ways are above man's". Do you realize just how self-righteous and egocentric that is?

[DaveW]

 And has others have pointed out, the word of God does not say in Eph 2:8 that faith is a gift.

No it does not. The 'gift' is salvation.

There is a charismatic gift of faith (1 Cor 12) but that has to do with the working of miracles; it is not salvic faith.

I would submit however that repentance (also required for entering the New Covenant into salvation) IS a gift:

Acts 11.18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.

[Johnb]

God desires that all men be saved yet He only gives faith to a few for no particular reason?   God is not a respecter of persons yet He will select a few and give them faith not because they deserve it or have earned it or because they are better than other but just because He wants to?

Can you not see how absurd that is?  How can that be called a wise and just God?  

Is this just a way of making yourself feel special because God has "given you the gift of faith"?

Saying God's ways are not man's way does nothing to explain this.  This is false doctrine.  The clear message of the NT is salvation by grace through faith.  

This is so far out of mainline Christian thinking and belief I am moving this thread to the non traditional theology forum

[p.rehbein]

INJ commented:

With all respect: According even to your forum rules I can say something is the word of God if I quote the word of God, just as you can say it is not the word of God if you quote the word of God. But I am constantly maligned in attitude and words which is not restrained and is against the forum rules as far as I am aware. Granted you are a moderator on here and if you believe I am not quoting the word of God then please let me know and I will apologise.

So correct me if I am wrong, just so I know. I cannot say blah blah blah is the word of God but someone else can say blah blah blah is the word of God? I can't say that "the word teaches faith and grace are a gift of God", but someone else can say "the word teaches faith isn't a gift?" -  I will endeavour to alway use references and scriptures more often

I am not on my own. I would not have got manna on here if no-one agreed with me. Even the post vote agrees with what I have said. I have not made this doctrine up, neither am I part of a cult, as I have been maligned previously. I am a spirit filled believer. I am student of the word and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I was saved at the age of 3, convicted of my sin as a child, used of God to heal the sick, deliver the oppressed, I do good to widows and orphans and reveal the love of God to all as revealed to myself by the Holy Spirit and confirmed by the word of God, many witnesses, fathers in the faith and with a good conscience. I am a minister of reconciliation and I am not ashamed of the Gospel I preach.

I work hard, have a strong faith, but this is all of God and none of myself.

It is clear you have a poor opinion of me. Pity, as I wish all would accept that Salvation is all of God and nothing about US.... those who know this will cast their crowns at our Lords feet.

The word of God was not meant to be used as a sword, nor a hammer on believers, merely a mirror. The sword against the dark forces not against flesh and blood and the hammer for unbelievers.

Incidentally I have no idea what OSAS is at all, neither do I believe that what we do has no effect on our future or that of others
====================================================

First to correct your statement:  I am not a moderator........once upon a time, but no longer.......FYI. 

You can certainly say "the Word of God says.......................and give the Book, Chapter and verse.........." shoot, I do it all the time.....and we should.  However, when you make an affirmative statement and hold up that statement to be the Word of God when it is only your opinion of what the Word of God says, then, that's a different story alltogether..........

(for instance..................were I, or someone to say "salvation is only for the Jews......or.......salvation only comes through water baptism..........or.....good works are required for salvation..........or.....well, that's the idea.  This is not the Word of God, it is the opinion of the person saying what they are saying, and should not be presented as being the Word of God.....is that more clear?)

Again, you certainly can say "grace and faith are a gift.........but this is only your opinion, and you should say it's your opinion.  Now, I don't remember reading in your OP the specific scriptre where you get this, but you could have posted one and I missed it.  Again, though, that would be your interpretation would it not?  Just as my disagreement is my interpretation/understanding of Scriptre.........Yes?  No?  I never said you did not have the right to say something, for you surely do.........

As for "manna," don't get caught up in that, I don't, and IMO it is a mistake to judge one's understanding of Scripture by the amount of manna they have received......................do you suppose Jesus woulda gotten a lot of "manna?"   

Never said you were a member of a "cult."  Don't know where your getting this stuff from.  As for others here agreeing with you, well, that should not be a suprise should it?  There are many here who agree with many others here, and they generally tend to be from the same denomination/organization/theological upbringing........so what's the big deal?  How many people agreed with the teachings of Jesus?  As for being "maligned," shoot, that's a daily occurance for me, and has been since I first joined, so you don't get credit for that one.............I am a "blood bought, born again, child of the King, and I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."  So, we may or may not have that in common, don't know how you feel concerning being blood bought and born again.

I also never said I had a "poor opinion" of you.  I do not know you personally, nor do I doubt your sincerity........however I do disagree with various things you have posted here, and when I do disagree, I will say so.  As for the "personal testimony," well, good for you........and God bless, however, I am curious how you have taken objection to my comments when the other comments I have read here that disagree with you seem very similar to mine, if not even stronger in their disagreement.

To be clear....................if I read something that I do not believe to be the Word of God/Biblical, I will say so........it is my duty.

As there are many here who are showing the fault with your teaching, and as you seem to have been overly offended by my comment(s), shoot, I got better things to do........so I'll let y'all continue.

I do want to give credit where credit is due:  YOU have accomplished ONE THING that I would not have believed possible, and that is you have UNITED myself, Jimmy, Gomer, and JohnB to be of "one accord" with regards to your teachings/post.  Now, rest assured, it will not last long...........but you do deserve credit for that, and it is/was no little feat.........

[INJ]

God desires that all men be saved yet He only gives faith to a few for no particular reason?   God is not a respecter of persons yet He will select a few and give them faith not because they deserve it or have earned it or because they are better than other but just because He wants to?

Can you not see how absurd that is?  How can that be called a wise and just God?  

Is this just a way of making yourself feel special because God has "given you the gift of faith"?

Saying God's ways are not man's way does nothing to explain this.  This is false doctrine.  The clear message of the NT is salvation by grace through faith.  

This is so far out of mainline Christian thinking and belief I am moving this thread to the non traditional theology forum

It is not non traditional theology. I do not know what bible school you went to but if you knew about the welsh revival the english revivals from which even the Christians went to America you would understand that is what was preached....I believe you are doing God a disfavour my friend....and if you look at the votes you are yourself in the minority of opinion

Respect

[DaveW]

I have to agree that it is not out of the mainstream - indeed it is a conservative Calvinist viewpoint.  I disagree with it but it is not "untraditional."

[Johnb]

Here is why

Grace is extended by God and therefore we can not please Him with grace.  This simply is not mainline theology.  I am not counting votes of those who participate but those who choose not to simply because it is not mainline theology nor based on scripture.
The only other place it could go is Calvinistic theology but it goes even beyond that.  
Nothing has changed except the location.

If another moderator disagrees they can move it where they believe it belongs.

[INJ]

INJ commented:

With all respect: According even to your forum rules I can say something is the word of God if I quote the word of God, just as you can say it is not the word of God if you quote the word of God. But I am constantly maligned in attitude and words which is not restrained and is against the forum rules as far as I am aware. Granted you are a moderator on here and if you believe I am not quoting the word of God then please let me know and I will apologise.

So correct me if I am wrong, just so I know. I cannot say blah blah blah is the word of God but someone else can say blah blah blah is the word of God? I can't say that "the word teaches faith and grace are a gift of God", but someone else can say "the word teaches faith isn't a gift?" -  I will endeavour to alway use references and scriptures more often

I am not on my own. I would not have got manna on here if no-one agreed with me. Even the post vote agrees with what I have said. I have not made this doctrine up, neither am I part of a cult, as I have been maligned previously. I am a spirit filled believer. I am student of the word and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I was saved at the age of 3, convicted of my sin as a child, used of God to heal the sick, deliver the oppressed, I do good to widows and orphans and reveal the love of God to all as revealed to myself by the Holy Spirit and confirmed by the word of God, many witnesses, fathers in the faith and with a good conscience. I am a minister of reconciliation and I am not ashamed of the Gospel I preach.

I work hard, have a strong faith, but this is all of God and none of myself.

It is clear you have a poor opinion of me. Pity, as I wish all would accept that Salvation is all of God and nothing about US.... those who know this will cast their crowns at our Lords feet.

The word of God was not meant to be used as a sword, nor a hammer on believers, merely a mirror. The sword against the dark forces not against flesh and blood and the hammer for unbelievers.

Incidentally I have no idea what OSAS is at all, neither do I believe that what we do has no effect on our future or that of others
====================================================

First to correct your statement:  I am not a moderator........once upon a time, but no longer.......FYI.  

You can certainly say "the Word of God says.......................and give the Book, Chapter and verse.........." shoot, I do it all the time.....and we should.  However, when you make an affirmative statement and hold up that statement to be the Word of God when it is only your opinion of what the Word of God says, then, that's a different story alltogether..........

(for instance..................were I, or someone to say "salvation is only for the Jews......or.......salvation only comes through water baptism..........or.....good works are required for salvation..........or.....well, that's the idea.  This is not the Word of God, it is the opinion of the person saying what they are saying, and should not be presented as being the Word of God.....is that more clear?)

Again, you certainly can say "grace and faith are a gift.........but this is only your opinion, and you should say it's your opinion.  Now, I don't remember reading in your OP the specific scriptre where you get this, but you could have posted one and I missed it.  Again, though, that would be your interpretation would it not?  Just as my disagreement is my interpretation/understanding of Scriptre.........Yes?  No?  I never said you did not have the right to say something, for you surely do.........

As for "manna," don't get caught up in that, I don't, and IMO it is a mistake to judge one's understanding of Scripture by the amount of manna they have received......................do you suppose Jesus woulda gotten a lot of "manna?"  

Never said you were a member of a "cult."  Don't know where your getting this stuff from.  As for others here agreeing with you, well, that should not be a suprise should it?  There are many here who agree with many others here, and they generally tend to be from the same denomination/organization/theological upbringing........so what's the big deal?  How many people agreed with the teachings of Jesus?  As for being "maligned," shoot, that's a daily occurance for me, and has been since I first joined, so you don't get credit for that one.............I am a "blood bought, born again, child of the King, and I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."  So, we may or may not have that in common, don't know how you feel concerning being blood bought and born again.

I also never said I had a "poor opinion" of you.  I do not know you personally, nor do I doubt your sincerity........however I do disagree with various things you have posted here, and when I do disagree, I will say so.  As for the "personal testimony," well, good for you........and God bless, however, I am curious how you have taken objection to my comments when the other comments I have read here that disagree with you seem very similar to mine, if not even stronger in their disagreement.

To be clear....................if I read something that I do not believe to be the Word of God/Biblical, I will say so........it is my duty.

As there are many here who are showing the fault with your teaching, and as you seem to have been overly offended by my comment(s), shoot, I got better things to do........so I'll let y'all continue.

I do want to give credit where credit is due:  YOU have accomplished ONE THING that I would not have believed possible, and that is you have UNITED myself, Jimmy, Gomer, and JohnB to be of "one accord" with regards to your teachings/post.  Now, rest assured, it will not last long...........but you do deserve credit for that, and it is/was no little feat.........

I will not respond in kind as it would not be any good. But let me just say, you are wrong my friend and so are the moderators view on biblical accuracy in my opinion.

[INJ]

Here is why

Grace is extended by God and therefore we can not please Him with grace.  This simply is not mainline theology.  I am not counting votes of those who participate but those who choose not to simply because it is not mainline theology nor based on scripture.
The only other place it could go is Calvinistic theology but it goes even beyond that.  
Nothing has changed except the location.

If another moderator disagrees they can move it where they believe it belongs.

I am not a calvinist and the opposition to this view in my opinion blinds you to the truth in the word of God. For we see through a glass dimly and you do not know all things. The authority I have in God, it testified through confirmation of his word, changed lives, healings, miracles and I am not ashamed...nor intimidated by your rebuttals.

Peace

[Johnb]

You can continue to fuss about the location or discuss the topic.

I placed the topic where I believe it belongs.  That is not disrespect .  

If another mod.  believes it belongs elsewhere they can move it.

[INJ]

I have to agree that it is not out of the mainstream - indeed it is a conservative Calvinist viewpoint.  I disagree with it but it is not "untraditional."

I respect your moderate response...I do not agree with you neither but respect.

As I have said before..I am not a calvinist. But as we both know there has been a raging argument for centuries about predestination and mans responsibility. But they are both in the scriptures and both are true. It is not one or the other. But the balance is revealed through revelation by the spirit of God. I may not be the best communicator in the world, but I do know who I believe...and his sheep hear his voice.

God build his church, not us, God is the author and the finisher, not us....all is of God...... but this does NOT mean we do not need to respond of course we do. Neither does it mean that he does not call many but few are chosen.....again the word of God.... he chose us.....we did not chose him......but we do turn to him.........and in a human sense we do choose him...... but in reality it is all of God..

I know this sounds like contradiction but it is not it is the word....check it out

[gospel]

I have to agree that it is not out of the mainstream - indeed it is a conservative Calvinist viewpoint.  I disagree with it but it is not "untraditional."

[p.rehbein]

Faith, n.  1. Confidence.  2.  Religious belief.  3.  Loyalty.  ---faith'less, adj.

Faith'ful, adj.  1.  Loyal.  2.  Having religious belief.  3. Copying accurately.  ---faith'fully, adv.  Faith'ful-ness, n.

Be-lief', n. 1.  Thing believed.  2.  Conviction.  3.  Faith.

Be-lieve', v., -lieved, -lieving.  1.  Trust.  2.  Accept as true.  3.  Regard as likely.  ---be-live'a-ble, adj.  be-live'er, n.
 
Genesis 15:6) And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

God promised Abram that he would have an heir from his own bowels, and Abram "believed

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Grace is not a "way."  Grace is a reason.  Faith is a way.

[INJ]

Faith, n.  1. Confidence.  2.  Religious belief.  3.  Loyalty.  ---faith'less, adj.

Faith'ful, adj.  1.  Loyal.  2.  Having religious belief.  3. Copying accurately.  ---faith'fully, adv.  Faith'ful-ness, n.

Be-lief', n. 1.  Thing believed.  2.  Conviction.  3.  Faith.

Be-lieve', v., -lieved, -lieving.  1.  Trust.  2.  Accept as true.  3.  Regard as likely.  ---be-live'a-ble, adj.  be-live'er, n.
 
Genesis 15:6) And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

God promised Abram that he would have an heir from his own bowels, and Abram "believed

[Jimmy]

Faith, n.  1. Confidence.  2.  Religious belief.  3.  Loyalty.  ---faith'less, adj.

Faith'ful, adj.  1.  Loyal.  2.  Having religious belief.  3. Copying accurately.  ---faith'fully, adv.  Faith'ful-ness, n.

Be-lief', n. 1.  Thing believed.  2.  Conviction.  3.  Faith.

Be-lieve', v., -lieved, -lieving.  1.  Trust.  2.  Accept as true.  3.  Regard as likely.  ---be-live'a-ble, adj.  be-live'er, n.
 
Genesis 15:6) And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

God promised Abram that he would have an heir from his own bowels, and Abram "believed

[Johnb]

Jimmy
Excellent explanation of Calvinism.  Yes some hold this view without being aware of the implications or even knowing where the doctrine came from.  While there are passages to support predestination it is not individual predestination .  Without free will the whole concept of preaching the good news to the whole world makes no sense.  The act of Christ comming to be the lamb for those already predetermined to be saved makes no sense.  The silly statement that God's ways are not man's ways does not answer all the contradictions in this theology.  I guess it makes some feel very special to think God picked them out from all the rest of us rejects.

[p.rehbein]

.............. ............not for nothing, but, if the only thing argued about concerning my post of scriptures which clearly show that "faith/believing" is an act of man inherent to/in him, and not a gift from God...........then.........  

(I kinda get the idea that we are working our way around to the excuse/idea that "everything is a gift from God, 'cause He created everything anyhoo.............birth, hair color, eye color, parents, siblings, heighth, weight, educational level, health, happiness, whatever................since He is the Creator of all, and I don't think people will argue with that, then it would stand to reason that faith was part of His creation plan................and that is not really what the OP suggestted in my opinion.)

However, since I've opened this can of worms, to expand upon it.  The faith that is inherent in man is far different than the faith spoken of as a "gift of the Holy Ghost."  Now, this is my understanding of scripture, others are free to disagree.  The first is an "imperfect" faith inherent in man and can wax or wane, can grow strong, or grow weak.  This "faith" is the faith man exhibits when in his search for something/someone greater than he to believe in/place his trust in exhibits.  It is this "faith" that man exercises when he first "believes in/trusts in/places his faith in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

The Holy Ghost gift of "faith" is a perfect faith.  It must be so, for it is a gift from God and God is perfect in every way.  The "faith" given by the Holy Ghost cannot wane, falter, fail, for it is from God.

Again, these are my thoughts, so disagree as you wish..............but the fact remains that the two "faiths" I have spoken of are often misunderstood and believed to be the same faith, and IMO they are not.

Consider this, how can one have the "gift of Holy Ghost faith" PRIOR to having believed in and accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour?  They can't.  For it is only AFTER we "believe in/place our faith in" Him as our Lord and Saviour that we become worthy vessels for the gifts of the Holy Ghost.  Ergo, the two "faiths" must be different.

One is of man, and is not a perfect faith, the other is of God and is a perfect faith.

[Jimmy]

.............. ............not for nothing, but, if the only thing argued about concerning my post of scriptures which clearly show that "faith/believing" is an act of man inherent to/in him, and not a gift from God...........then.........  

(I kinda get the idea that we are working our way around to the excuse/idea that "everything is a gift from God, 'cause He created everything anyhoo.............birth, hair color, eye color, parents, siblings, heighth, weight, educational level, health, happiness, whatever................since He is the Creator of all, and I don't think people will argue with that, then it would stand to reason that faith was part of His creation plan................and that is not really what the OP suggestted in my opinion.)

However, since I've opened this can of worms, to expand upon it.  The faith that is inherent in man is far different than the faith spoken of as a "gift of the Holy Ghost."  Now, this is my understanding of scripture, others are free to disagree.  The first is an "imperfect" faith inherent in man and can wax or wane, can grow strong, or grow weak.  This "faith" is the faith man exhibits when in his search for something/someone greater than he to believe in/place his trust in exhibits.  It is this "faith" that man exercises when he first "believes in/trusts in/places his faith in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

The Holy Ghost gift of "faith" is a perfect faith.  It must be so, for it is a gift from God and God is perfect in every way.  The "faith" given by the Holy Ghost cannot wane, falter, fail, for it is from God.

Again, these are my thoughts, so disagree as you wish..............but the fact remains that the two "faiths" I have spoken of are often misunderstood and believed to be the same faith, and IMO they are not.

Consider this, how can one have the "gift of Holy Ghost faith" PRIOR to having believed in and accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour?  They can't.  For it is only AFTER we "believe in/place our faith in" Him as our Lord and Saviour that we become worthy vessels for the gifts of the Holy Ghost.  Ergo, the two "faiths" must be different.

One is of man, and is not a perfect faith, the other is of God and is a perfect faith.

Could you point us to the scriptures that speak of this "perfect faith" you are referring to?  Perhaps you need only to give us the scriptural reference of the "gift of Holy Ghost faith".

Without that, you haven't made a whole lot of sense to me. I really don't know what you are talking about.

[p.rehbein]

1st Corinthians 12:1-13

1  .)Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 .) Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 .) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 .) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 .) And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 .) And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 .) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 .) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 .) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 .) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 .) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 .) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 .) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[Jimmy]

The faith that you are referring to has little if anything to do with the faith that saves.  It was given to only a few, just like the gift of prophecy, or the gift of healing.  And since I am basically a cessationist, I don't believe any of those gifts are for today.

[p.rehbein]

The faith that you are referring to has little if anything to do with the faith that saves.  It was given to only a few, just like the gift of prophecy, or the gift of healing.  And since I am basically a cessationist, I don't believe any of those gifts are for today.

you are making my point............that the two "faiths" are different..............now, we may disagree if one can receive one of these gifts today, but you are still making my point................

[INJ]

Faith, n.  1. Confidence.  2.  Religious belief.  3.  Loyalty.  ---faith'less, adj.

Faith'ful, adj.  1.  Loyal.  2.  Having religious belief.  3. Copying accurately.  ---faith'fully, adv.  Faith'ful-ness, n.

Be-lief', n. 1.  Thing believed.  2.  Conviction.  3.  Faith.

Be-lieve', v., -lieved, -lieving.  1.  Trust.  2.  Accept as true.  3.  Regard as likely.  ---be-live'a-ble, adj.  be-live'er, n.
 
Genesis 15:6) And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

God promised Abram that he would have an heir from his own bowels, and Abram "believed

[Jimmy]

INJ, They are the same Greek word.

Let me be clear here.


Faith and belief are the same Greek word.

Now you can draw all the subtle distinctions that you want, but that is from you, not the Bible.  As for your "rhema" word of God, if you are referring to Romans 10:17, that "rhema" word of Christ is not "from" Christ so much as it is "about" Christ.  Faith is from hearing the word about Christ, i.e., the gospel message of Christ and the Cross. How do we know that?  Because that word comes from a preacher; not from God directly.

[INJ]

INJ, They are the same Greek word.

Let me be clear here.


Faith and belief are the same Greek word.

Now you can draw all the subtle distinctions that you want, but that is from you, not the Bible.  As for your "rhema" word of God, if you are referring to Romans 10:17, that "rhema" word of Christ is not "from" Christ so much as it is "about" Christ.  Faith is from hearing the word about Christ, i.e., the gospel message of Christ and the Cross. How do we know that?  Because that word comes from a preacher; not from God directly.

I quoted you the Greek they are not the same. Neither in the strongs although they are sometimes used interchangeably because faith and belief are meant to be together.....

I feel sorry for you if you have never had God speak to you because that is how I became a Christian not through a sermon. His sheep her his voice....this is not a preacher....

DO you know about revelation, do you believe God does miracles and healing.....I would be dead if he didn;t so your doctrine means nothing if it has no power. John Wesley had faith arise before he believed,  and even if God only uses me as much as he used him I will be happy. He believed that faith was a gift

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

They are the same Greek word, just in different parts of speech.

Pistis is a noun
Pisteuo is a verb.

They're the same thing - one just implies you're doing something, while the other talks about it as an activity that one might, perhaps, do.

Saying they're not is like saying that run and running are not the same word.

Jarrod

[INJ]

They are the same Greek word, just in different parts of speech.

Pistis is a noun
Pisteuo is a verb.

They're the same thing - one just implies you're doing something, while the other talks about it as an activity that one might, perhaps, do.

Saying they're not is like saying that run and running are not the same word.

Jarrod

But can't you see that you are agreeing with me?

A verb a doing word....believe

A noun is a name of whatever already exists....faith

The root is different. This is more than logic this is a spiritual truth IMO.....

(when I talk about the root I am referring to meaning)


Faith and belief

I've heard the question before, "I believe, but I don't have faith." It's also been reversed, "I have faith, but I don't really believe." Of course we can have our own definition for words; but in matters of Christianity let's focus on the Biblical usages of the nouns, faith and belief, or the verbs, have faith and believe.

A key problem that occurs when reading and understanding the Bible is the change that occurs in the meaning of words. What a word meant at one time can gradually change by usage into a different meaning. Another problem that occurs is that the same word in a foreign language can be interpreted into a second language by two or three different words.

The koine Greek

To some degree in English we think of "belief" as different from "faith." Many will think of one of the words as more important than the other, or one is a religious word and the other is not. Though that may be true with English, it is not quite the same with the Greek. (The New Testament was originally written in koine Greek.)

Often in the Greek the same word is used for belief and faith. But yes, the context can alter the meaning of the one Greek word to give us the nuances that we have in our English usage of belief and faith; yet, it is one word. Technically the root meaning is maintained throughout. Belief and faith are part of the same thing. But not always and not completely.

Consider a well-know passage, James 2:19--"You believe there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!" A common reaction is "Okay, the demons believe, but they don't have faith." Actually the verse can just as easily be translated, "You have faith there is one God. You do well. Even the demons have faith--and tremble!" No violence is being done to the meaning.

For some Christians, this will rock them. "What! the demons have faith!" Yes, the same (in fact, the one and only) Greek word is used for both English words.

The preposition "in" changes everything

There are two issues at play here: believe and trust, which are also at play in the English words belief and faith. It is possible to believe something and have no trust; however, it is NOT possible to trust and not believe. For instance, I watch a demo of a kevlar vest stopping a .357 Magnum being fired at it. I go online and read about it. The vest has been tested and tested. I believe the vest will stop the bullet. I have faith the vest will stop the bullet. There is no difference in either sentence. Now, the company offers to give me a vest if I will wear it in a demo. If I actually put the vest on and let a live round of a .357 be fired at me, now I believe in the vest and I have faith in the vest. If I believe the video but refuse to wear the vest, then I believe but do not trust. If I wear the vest, then I have to believe the video as well as believe in the vest. So again, I can believe without trusting, but I cannot trust without believing.

Let's take a Bible verse that is very well known and is often seen at ballgames: "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." There is something slightly different here. Did you notice the little word "in"? Both English and Greek, by using the word "in," create a totally different meaning. We intuitively recognize that to believe something about someone and to believe IN someone are not the same.

With the English version of the Bible I used I found 47 instances of "believes in ... believes on ... believe in ... believe on." This distinction of believing something about Jesus is far different than believing in Jesus. The former is belief, and the latter is trust. Remember the vest. Watching the video and believing it will stop a bullet only takes the mind; wearing the vest and letting someone shoot at me takes the whole person.

Conclusion

Whether a person is religious or not, we can believe all kinds of things. But when you think on it, there are far fewer things you believe in, that you trust, that you commit yourself to. That little word "in" changes everything.

Yes, the demons believe God exists, and they tremble because they do not believe in Him for anything.

So, can I believe without having faith? Sure, it depends on how you use the words. I don't need the Greek for the dramatic change that "in" brings about. We use it the same way in English. If you believe, then you also have faith. But our walk with Jesus isn't because we simply believe this or that about Him. It is because we COMMIT ourselves to Him, we TRUST Him, ... we BELIEVE IN Him ... we HAVE FAITH IN Him.

The issues of faith, belief and the Greek are not as simple as you make out and need inspiration from the Holy Spirit to reveal truth. For without revelation from the HOLY SPIRIT NONE would know Christ or understand but remain in darkness.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

No, the Greek words emphatically do not come from different roots.  They come from the same root, which is pist-.  Saying otherwise makes you look ignorant.  You should avoid doing this in future arguments.

Yes, the word 'in' or 'en' makes an enormous difference.  In Greek, it changes it from believing someTHING to believing someONE.  Relying on a person is an entirely different thing than relying on some single fact.

Finally, I would offer you a problem.  The English word 'belief' has changed meaning since 1611 when it was initially used in the King James.

The word 'lief' at the time of writing meant - to be anxious to do something, to be eager, willing or prepared. 
The prefix 'be-' modified that only slightly, making it to mean - 'to become anxious to do, to become eager.'

Can you reconcile that with what you believe?

Jarrod

[INJ]

No, the Greek words emphatically do not come from different roots.  They come from the same root, which is pist-.  Saying otherwise makes you look ignorant.  You should avoid doing this in future arguments.

Yes, the word 'in' or 'en' makes an enormous difference.  In Greek, it changes it from believing someTHING to believing someONE.  Relying on a person is an entirely different thing than relying on some single fact.

Finally, I would offer you a problem.  The English word 'belief' has changed meaning since 1611 when it was initially used in the King James.

The word 'lief' at the time of writing meant - to be anxious to do something, to be eager, willing or prepared.  
The prefix 'be-' modified that only slightly, making it to mean - 'to become anxious to do, to become eager.'

Can you reconcile that with what you believe?

Jarrod

First I would like to say that although my explanation of faith and belief may be flawed the reasoning is not and neither is the truth of the fact. I would also like to say that the word of God and the understanding of it is spiritual not merely intellectual. In fact scripture clearly says that the wisdom of the wise will he frustrate - YLT 1 Cor 1:19 for it hath been written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought;'

It is the Holy Spirit that reveals Jesus.

The Greek word, which is translated as faith, is pistis (noun) and believe, is translated from pistevo (verb). The word believe (Greek verb "pistevo"), according to Strong's Greek Dictionary, means: to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust, (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ.) believe, commit, (to trust), put in trust with. "Pistevo" comes from the Greek noun "pistis" which means: persuasion, i.e., credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself; assurance, belief, believe, faith.

There are subtle shades of meaning in the language. The differences make all the difference. (below from Strongs New Testament dictionary)

4100.  πιστεύω pistĕuō, pist-yoo´-o; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by impl. to entrust (espec. one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
4101.  πιστικός pistikŏs, pis-tik-os´; from 4102; trustworthy, i.e. genuine (unadulterated):—spike-[nard].
4102.  πίστις pistis, pis´-tis; from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; mor. conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), espec. reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstr. constancy in such profession; by extens. the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
4103.  πιστός pistŏs, pis-tos´; from 3982; obj. trustworthy; subj. trustful:—believe (-ing, -r), faithful (-ly), sure, true.
4104.  πιστόω pistŏō, pis-tŏ´-o; from 4103; to assure:—assure of.

"pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.


4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.]

1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.

Ro 12:3: "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).

Eph 2:8,9: " For by grace you have been saved through faith (4102/pistis); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (NASU).

Gal 5:22,23: "22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,

patience, kindness, goodness, faith (4102/pistis), 23gentleness,

self-control; against such things there is no law."

2 Thes 1:11: "To this end (glorification) – indeed each time we pray about (peri) you for the purpose (hin) of our God counting you worthy of the call – even that He may fulfill (His) every good-pleasure that comes from (His) goodness and work of faith, in (His) ability."

Reflection: Faith is only (exclusively) given to the redeemed. It is not a virtue that can be worked up by human effort."

Reference -

So if we realise that faith is a gift, but we need to ensure that we agree with it, nurture it and renew our minds so we can be transformed by it - our commitment and agreement could be defined as believing...

To all those who think I made this up...think again!!!

[p.rehbein]

It seems to me that this whole thread hinges upon which "faith" you are speaking of.  The faith which is inherent in all men, or the faith which is the gift of the Holy Spirit spoken of in Corinthinas?  The only way (for me) that your comments make sense is if you are speaking of the "faith" which is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

You said:

[Reflection: Faith is only (exclusively) given to the redeemed. It is not a virtue that can be worked up by human effort."]

First, faith may or may not be a "virtue."  Consider these examples if you will.  Mohammad, Buda, that Jones guy, Charlie Mansen, Hitler, the almighty dollar.  It is a truth that there were folks who believed in/placed their faith in these, and some still do today.  This "faith" is the inherent faith (ability to believe in someone/something) that is in all men.  This faith does not line up with your comments here.  Does that make sense? 

[Jimmy]

No, the Greek words emphatically do not come from different roots.  They come from the same root, which is pist-.  Saying otherwise makes you look ignorant.  You should avoid doing this in future arguments.

Yes, the word 'in' or 'en' makes an enormous difference.  In Greek, it changes it from believing someTHING to believing someONE.  Relying on a person is an entirely different thing than relying on some single fact.

Finally, I would offer you a problem.  The English word 'belief' has changed meaning since 1611 when it was initially used in the King James.

The word 'lief' at the time of writing meant - to be anxious to do something, to be eager, willing or prepared.  
The prefix 'be-' modified that only slightly, making it to mean - 'to become anxious to do, to become eager.'

Can you reconcile that with what you believe?

Jarrod

First I would like to say that although my explanation of faith and belief may be flawed the reasoning is not and neither is the truth of the fact. I would also like to say that the word of God and the understanding of it is spiritual not merely intellectual. In fact scripture clearly says that the wisdom of the wise will he frustrate - YLT 1 Cor 1:19 for it hath been written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought;'

It is the Holy Spirit that reveals Jesus.

The Greek word, which is translated as faith, is pistis (noun) and believe, is translated from pistevo (verb). The word believe (Greek verb "pistevo"), according to Strong's Greek Dictionary, means: to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust, (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ.) believe, commit, (to trust), put in trust with. "Pistevo" comes from the Greek noun "pistis" which means: persuasion, i.e., credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself; assurance, belief, believe, faith.

There are subtle shades of meaning in the language. The differences make all the difference. (below from Strongs New Testament dictionary)

4100.  πιστεύω pistĕuō, pist-yoo´-o; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by impl. to entrust (espec. one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
4101.  πιστικός pistikŏs, pis-tik-os´; from 4102; trustworthy, i.e. genuine (unadulterated):—spike-[nard].
4102.  πίστις pistis, pis´-tis; from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; mor. conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), espec. reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstr. constancy in such profession; by extens. the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
4103.  πιστός pistŏs, pis-tos´; from 3982; obj. trustworthy; subj. trustful:—believe (-ing, -r), faithful (-ly), sure, true.
4104.  πιστόω pistŏō, pis-tŏ´-o; from 4103; to assure:—assure of.

"pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.


4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.]

1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.

Ro 12:3: "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).

Eph 2:8,9: " For by grace you have been saved through faith (4102/pistis); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (NASU).

Gal 5:22,23: "22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,

patience, kindness, goodness, faith (4102/pistis), 23gentleness,

self-control; against such things there is no law."

2 Thes 1:11: "To this end (glorification) – indeed each time we pray about (peri) you for the purpose (hin) of our God counting you worthy of the call – even that He may fulfill (His) every good-pleasure that comes from (His) goodness and work of faith, in (His) ability."

Reflection: Faith is only (exclusively) given to the redeemed. It is not a virtue that can be worked up by human effort."

Reference -

So if we realise that faith is a gift, but we need to ensure that we agree with it, nurture it and renew our minds so we can be transformed by it - our commitment and agreement could be defined as believing...

To all those who think I made this up...think again!!!

I think you should change your forum ID to Don Quixote.

[gospel]

It seems to me that this whole thread hinges upon which "faith" you are speaking of.  The faith which is inherent in all men, or the faith which is the gift of the Holy Spirit spoken of in Corinthinas?  The only way (for me) that your comments make sense is if you are speaking of the "faith" which is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

You said:

[Reflection: Faith is only (exclusively) given to the redeemed. It is not a virtue that can be worked up by human effort."]

First, faith may or may not be a "virtue."  Consider these examples if you will.  Mohammad, Buda, that Jones guy, Charlie Mansen, Hitler, the almighty dollar.  It is a truth that there were folks who believed in/placed their faith in these, and some still do today.  This "faith" is the inherent faith (ability to believe in someone/something) that is in all men.  This faith does not line up with your comments here.  Does that make sense?  

God has a given to every man a measure of faith
Romans 12:3

But one has to delineate between bible faith, the faith that pleases God, Faith in His Word, His Christ and His Salvation

and the basic measure of faith that has been given to every man

As it has been pointed out, all people who are "mentally healthy" operate in some measure of faith...if that were not the case...

People would not build homes in areas prone to floods, tornadoes or earthquakes.

But people do and not all of them believe in God or Jesus!

One thing all of them have in common though is the belief that if disaster does come it will not come to them.....

And so, in faith they build or buy their homes, start businesses in areas where there is a statistical certainty disaster will strike.

On another level, most people .....
from the Corporate CEO, the politician and the everyday average person make plans for next week, next month, next year and even 2,3 and 5 years into the future...

Those plans, the making of them and the investment into them require faith

The US Dollar, no longer backed by gold is the preferred instrument of exchange for one reason only....people all over the world believe The USA will be here tomorrow, next year and years to come.

In other words...
what makes the US dollar strong is the faith people have it's ability to endure

On the other hand

People who lack a semblance of faith are mentally unhealthy, they are those who suffer from paranoia at the worst or a spirit of worry at the very least. People who are paranoid simply have no faith whatsoever....they are awash in fear.
Among those fears are fear of germs, fear of open spaces, fear of imminent calamity, fear of driving, fear of heights...it goes on and on

And those who suffer from these fear simply lack faith in the belief that these bad things won't happen to them....

They lack the measure of faith, God has given to every man, without which one cannot live a normal life

My thoughts