This Generation

[EdwardGoodie]

In another thread, one poster asked the following question:

"Can you please give a scripture reference where Jesus told the first century disciples He would return in their generation."

This was my response.  I hope many others will seriously reflect upon the question I asked in return.

Source: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/what-does-it-matter-what-we-believe-about-the-end-times/msg1054660835/#msg1054660835
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Sure.  It is good that you ask for support from Scripture.

Hopefully, you will allow for a tiny bit of context first...from Scripture of course!

Mark 13:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Mark 13:4  Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Matthew 24:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?     

Luke 21:7 - And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?   

Matthew 24:4 - And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 

Mark 13:5 - And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:   

Luke 21:10 - Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 

Luke 21:29 - And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;   

Matthew 24:34 - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 

Mark 13:30 - Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.   

Luke 21:32 - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.   

I have answered your question.  Please answer mine:

Let's say you were one of the disciples.  Uhhhhh, let's say you are Andrew.  Now when Jesus is speaking to YOU and three other disciples in a private conversation, what would you have understood Jesus to mean when He said "this generation"?  Would you have thought He meant their contemporary generation as PREVIOUSLY USED here (Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39,Matthew 12:45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 17:17; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, Mark 8:38; Mark 9:19; Luke 7:31; Luke 9:41; Luke 11:29, Luke 11:30, Luke 11:50, Luke 11:51; Luke 17:25; Acts 2:40) or would you have thought he meant thousands of years into the future?

True hermeneutics state that we must seek to understand the original interpretation - what it meant to those that which was written or spoken to them, and in accordance to the culture and literature of their time.  Too often, we attempt to interpret from a 21st century time frame and with a Western cultural understanding.  Some times we even attempt to "yank" what was said to the 1st century recipients into our own generation of 21st century individuals.  This is adamantly wrong and goes against every biblical hermeneutic principle.

I trust you will contemplate carefully what Jesus said to those 1st century disciples in private conversation and how he used "generation" in those other texts to describe their 1st century generation...

Blessings, Edward

[daq]

Hi EdwardGoodie
Surely Matthew 24 and the Mark 13 companion passage were spoken for that generation. And surely all things foretold by Yeshua were FULFILLED accordingly just as he said in that same generation. However, it was not all accomplished merely in 70AD. It began at Pentecost and continues through today because the things foretold are all supernal "signs" that most will not understand until the signs themselves have happened to the man or woman themselves, each in his or her own appointed times. All of these things are part of our walk with Christ; and as we walk they come to pass, and he reveals more and more of himself, and of the Father, until finally we die to ourselves and begin to see with spiritual eyes.

Matthew 10:18-27 KJV
18. And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26. Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

Mark 13:3-4 KJV
3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4. Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Matthew 10:27 KJV
27. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

Mark 13:34-37 KJV
34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

The "Full Preterists" are incorrect!
The "Futurists" are also incorrect!

What he tells to them in private he says to preach it from the housetops!
Do you understand that YOU are in charge of his "house" till he returns?
Do you understand that YOU are in fact his house?

And what he says to them he says TO ALL ~ WATCH!

Acts 2:16-21 KJV
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Does that sound like a Billy Graham crusade to you?

I trow not ...  

[EdwardGoodie]

Hi EdwardGoodie
Surely Matthew 24 and the Mark 13 companion passage were spoken for that generation. And surely all things foretold by Yeshua were FULFILLED accordingly just as he said in that same generation.

Yes, I am glad you understand the fulfillment in their generation.  It is important to recognize that what Jesus said would be only in accordance to that specific scope.

BTW, in case you or others think that I believe all things STOPPED at AD70, that would be adamantly false because people are still being saved and entering the kingdom of God - that is how one enters the kingdom.  It seems people have forgotten this and wait for a yet future kingdom.  I quote the Lord's own words in this regard:

Mark 1:15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

And having said that, some believe the time was NOT fulfilled...

The signs for His coming were given to that generation.  Did you look at all the other verses regarding "generation?

What I think you miss here, daq, is the type given in the wilderness wanderings.  It would be one full generation (40 years) before they could enter into the promised land.  Examining the many parallels of this account are simply amazing - that is if one recognizes the fulfillment at the end of that 1st century generation...That wilderness generation was purged of unbelief before entering in to name just one.

 

[Linker]

The generation of Israel the Lord's speaks of is the one that will be living in the land during the coming 70th week decreed for the nation .... the Middle East is showing evidence of the setting up for His sudden intervention to bring pressure upon Israel for turning and to judge the intransigent nations of the earth 

[thethinker]

The generation of Israel the Lord's speaks of is the one that will be living in the land during the coming 70th week decreed for the nation .... the Middle East is showing evidence of the setting up for His sudden intervention to bring pressure upon Israel for turning and to judge the intransigent nations of the earth 

More of Linker's fairy tales. Jesus told His disciples that THEY would see the abomination of desolation.

15 "Therefore when YOU see the 'abomination of desolation,'[a] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place

[thethinker]

Pathetic answer thinker

He has told a returned remnant of His nation at the time of the end of this present age these things

.... His words are timeless son and one must not truncate large amounts of prophetic scripture in order to support the false teaching of preterism .... a religion of men that is without hope and totally bankrupt 

Jesus did the truncating son.

You are as apostate Israel who postpones God's fulfillments (Ezekiel 12:21-28). Israel was never warned not to truncate. They were warned not to postpone. Dispensationalists say the kingdom is "postponed" when Jesus and John the Baptist CLEARLY said it was "at hand."



thinker

[EdwardGoodie]

This is what I meant by saying some believe the time was NOT fulfilled...

[thethinker]

This is what I meant by saying some believe the time was NOT fulfilled...

Yes. Jesus did the "truncating." He said that the servant who says that his lord delays is"wicked" (Matthew 24:48). The author to the Hebrews also truncated. He said that Jesus would come in a "little while" and would "not delay" (Heb. 10:37).

thinker

[daq]

Hi EdwardGoodie
Surely Matthew 24 and the Mark 13 companion passage were spoken for that generation. And surely all things foretold by Yeshua were FULFILLED accordingly just as he said in that same generation.

Yes, I am glad you understand the fulfillment in their generation.  It is important to recognize that what Jesus said would be only in accordance to that specific scope.

BTW, in case you or others think that I believe all things STOPPED at AD70, that would be adamantly false because people are still being saved and entering the kingdom of God - that is how one enters the kingdom.  It seems people have forgotten this and wait for a yet future kingdom.  I quote the Lord's own words in this regard:

Mark 1:15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

And having said that, some believe the time was NOT fulfilled...

The signs for His coming were given to that generation.  Did you look at all the other verses regarding "generation?

What I think you miss here, daq, is the type given in the wilderness wanderings.  It would be one full generation (40 years) before they could enter into the promised land.  Examining the many parallels of this account are simply amazing - that is if one recognizes the fulfillment at the end of that 1st century generation...That wilderness generation was purged of unbelief before entering in to name just one.

TYPOLOGY?  
Forty Days Forty Nights in the Flood of Noah
Forty Years in the Wilderness - The dying of the Mighties
Forty Days Forty Nights Moses in Horeb the Mountain of YHWH
Forty Days Forty Nights Elijah unto Horeb the Mountain of YHWH
Forty Days Forty Nights in the Fast of Christ
Forty Days - Forty Years of Jonah (30CE - 70CE)
Forty Jubilees (2000 Years)


http://www.sheshbazzardaq.com/chronology-of-christ.html

Yet three days and an hemisu remain; for some ...
And that is, of course, each in his own appointed times ...  

[pointmade]

TYPOLOGY? 
Forty years in the wilderness ~
Forty years of Jonah (30CE - 70CE)
Forty Jubilees (2000 Years)


http://www.sheshbazzardaq.com/chronology-of-christ.html


"Typology" went out with the words of Jesus: "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."
The New Testament forbids in "giving heed to JEWISH fables: and commandments of men,
that turn from the truth" ( Titus 1:14 ).

Premillennialist are those who cling to Jewish fables.
Prophecy "scholars" who have turned from the "truth."
Quote old prophecy books that are long out of date, pitiful visions of  men trying in vain to coordinate
the second coming of the Lord with the prophets of old warning the Israelites of their future.

Their exile into Babylon as prophesied for their disobedience, and their return as prophesied, has absolutely
nothing to do with the second coming of Jesus. 

Get over it...this fallacy is a stumbling block in preaching the Gospel of Christ to men and women who are
seeking the truth!
You are as the "scribes and Pharisees, hypocries! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:
for you neither go in yourselves, neither do you allow them that are entering to go in" ( Ma. 23:13 ).
Paul said if "any man preach any other gospel unto you than what you have received, let him be accursed."



 

[daq]

TYPOLOGY?  
Forty years in the wilderness ~
Forty years of Jonah (30CE - 70CE)
Forty Jubilees (2000 Years)


http://www.sheshbazzardaq.com/chronology-of-christ.html


"Typology" went out with the words of Jesus: "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."
The New Testament forbids in "giving heed to JEWISH fables: and commandments of men,
that turn from the truth" ( Titus 1:14 ).

Premillennialist are those who cling to Jewish fables.
Prophecy "scholars" who have turned from the "truth."
Quote old prophecy books that are long out of date, pitiful visions of  men trying in vain to coordinate
the second coming of the Lord with the prophets of old warning the Israelites of their future.

Their exile into Babylon as prophesied for their disobedience, and their return as prophesied, has absolutely
nothing to do with the second coming of Jesus.  

Get over it...this fallacy is a stumbling block in preaching the Gospel of Christ to men and women who are
seeking the truth!
You are as the "scribes and Pharisees, hypocries! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:
for you neither go in yourselves, neither do you allow them that are entering to go in" ( Ma. 23:13 ).
Paul said if "any man preach any other gospel unto you than what you have received, let him be accursed."

Please tell me why I should desire to eat the same food you have been eating seeing how that you are now foaming at the mouth? You really should spend some quality time with The Doctor because it looks from here like you have been poisoned. In the mean time please be reminded of the full context of the Scripture you have quoted. Especially since Yeshua spoke it at least a week before the Crucifixion:

Luke 13:31 - 14:1 KJV
31. The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
32. And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
33. Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
34. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
1. And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.

Since you obviously already know everything then surely you have no need for me to explain why Yeshua had to be in Jerusalem, according to the commandment, at least four days before the slaying of the Passover Lamb. Knowing this, as you already do, then you must also already know what the passage you have quoted pertains to because, as you obviously know, he is not speaking of the passing of three days until his crucifixion since it is about seven days before the Passover when he makes the statement:

STATED SEVEN DAYS BEFORE THE CRUCIFIXION ~

"Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. Nevertheless I must walk today, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem"...

Repent ...

[lea]

In another thread, one poster asked the following question:

"Can you please give a scripture reference where Jesus told the first century disciples He would return in their generation."

This was my response.  I hope many others will seriously reflect upon the question I asked in return.

Source: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/what-does-it-matter-what-we-believe-about-the-end-times/msg1054660835/#msg1054660835
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Sure.  It is good that you ask for support from Scripture.

Hopefully, you will allow for a tiny bit of context first...from Scripture of course!

Mark 13:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Mark 13:4  Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Matthew 24:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?     

Luke 21:7 - And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?   

Matthew 24:4 - And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 

Mark 13:5 - And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:   

Luke 21:10 - Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 

Luke 21:29 - And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;   

Matthew 24:34 - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 

Mark 13:30 - Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.   

Luke 21:32 - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.   

I have answered your question.  Please answer mine:

Let's say you were one of the disciples.  Uhhhhh, let's say you are Andrew.  Now when Jesus is speaking to YOU and three other disciples in a private conversation, what would you have understood Jesus to mean when He said "this generation"?  Would you have thought He meant their contemporary generation as PREVIOUSLY USED here (Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39,Matthew 12:45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 17:17; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, Mark 8:38; Mark 9:19; Luke 7:31; Luke 9:41; Luke 11:29, Luke 11:30, Luke 11:50, Luke 11:51; Luke 17:25; Acts 2:40) or would you have thought he meant thousands of years into the future?

True hermeneutics state that we must seek to understand the original interpretation - what it meant to those that which was written or spoken to them, and in accordance to the culture and literature of their time.  Too often, we attempt to interpret from a 21st century time frame and with a Western cultural understanding.  Some times we even attempt to "yank" what was said to the 1st century recipients into our own generation of 21st century individuals.  This is adamantly wrong and goes against every biblical hermeneutic principle.

I trust you will contemplate carefully what Jesus said to those 1st century disciples in private conversation and how he used "generation" in those other texts to describe their 1st century generation...

Blessings, Edward

Hi E.G., I certainly agree with you, even if you are gone from this site and I can't give you manna!

                                                       

[robycop3]

  One little prob - THOSE THINGS HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED !

[dpr]

Yeah, the Preterist's view of Christ's Olivet discourse is laughable, as they say all those signs were fulfilled in the Apostle's day.

The last Sign Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse was that of His 2nd coming to gather His Church.

What idiot believes that 2nd coming ALREADY happened???


The good thing about God's Word is that He didn't isolate those Signs of the end of this world when He returns to just His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. The Seals of Revelation 6 parallel the 7 Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, and Revelation gives obvious statements to show Jesus' 2nd coming has NOT happened yet!

But not only in Revelation 6 are those Signs for the END OF THIS WORLD spoken of, but also in the Old Testament prophets, and in much of The New Testament Epistles by the Apostles.

That means the doctrine of men called Preterism is a huge LIE and a doctrine of devils, and not any different than the false Pre-trib Rapture doctrine, both designed by Satan's host to deceive Christians. I wouldn't be surprised at all that the unbelieving Jews of Judaism are behind those doctrines of devils.

[robycop3]

  Prets seem to place a lotta stock in the writings of Flavius Josephus, but they haven't studied the history of Josephus himself. He was a Jewish rebel leader who was captured by Roman general Vespasian. But he so impressed Vespasian enough to save his life. He promised Vespasian he'd write a history of the Jewish people, as Vespasian was interested in it.

  He prophesied that Vespasian would become Caesar, & when that prediction came to pass, V was so impressed that he made Josephus a member of the Flavius family. Thus, J was free to produce his writings that kept Vespasian, and later, Titus, happy. While his accounts of several events in the first Jewish-Roman war seem fairly-accurate, he added some embellishments of his account of the sieges of Jerusalem by Vespasian and Titus. For example, he described seeing & hearing chariots in the sky above Jerusalem, his being the only one of several hundred thousand people in that area to have witnessed them !

  Josephus is often called "The Jewish Benedict Arnold" for his betrayal of his troops when facing defeat by the Romans. However, he lived the rest of his days under Roman patronage.

  In other words, he was not a very reliable witness to the events involving Vespasian & Titus, as he didn't dare say or write anything that might offend them.

[3 Resurrections]

Hey robycop3,

I guess we could say the same thing about the KJV translators; they had to tread carefully to avoid offending King James with the results of their labors.  This had an unfortunate effect of blurring the meaning of  certain scripture passages, but it hardly erases the blessings that this version has been able to deliver in spite of that fact.

I would say the same thing about Josephus.  He was more than just a Jewish rebel leader and a supposed sycophant of the Flavians as you are styling him.   He was descended from a high priestly family, as well as the royal family of the Hasmoneans, and was thereby given wide exposure to Jewish learning and strict religious training in which he excelled. 

His eyewitness accounts of the Roman /Jewish wars from a front row seat were providentially preserved for us.  Plus, he is seconded by other first century historians.  The example you gave of the chariots and armed forces in the skies was also recorded for us by the Annals of Tacitus, I believe.

Though Josephus himself did not know it, he was actually one of the "ten horns" on the Judean Scarlet Beast in Rev. 17:12-16.  No less and no more than ten generals were selected  to be in charge of preparing the cities and nations of a newly-independent Israel for the war with Rome (Wars  2.20.4).  Many of them came from the family of former high priests.  Josephus was one of this list of 10 generals selected to command and prepare the Galilees and Gamala for the war.  Josephus was therefore part of scripture's prophetic fulfillment.

The power that those 10 generals /horns were simultaneously given was only going to last for "ONE HOUR" (Rev. 17:12).   That "one hour" expired when "Babylon" (AD 70 Jerusalem) fell in "ONE HOUR" when that "great city" was "made desolate" (Rev. 18:19).  By the end of that Scarlet Beast's existence, all those 10 generals that were part of it had either been killed or removed from their position of authority over that independent nation of Israel. 

Such a brief time for this Scarlet Beast independent nation of Israel to exist, from AD 66 until AD 70.  But this is consistent with Rev.17:8, which says that the Scarlet Beast (which then "IS NOT" in existence as John was writing Revelation in AD 59/60) was "ABOUT TO ARISE", and was also "ABOUT TO...GO INTO DESTRUCTION" at that time.  This is also perfectly consistent with this post's theme defining "THIS generation" as the one Christ was ministering to in those first-century days.

[dpr]

  Prets seem to place a lotta stock in the writings of Flavius Josephus, but they haven't studied the history of Josephus himself. He was a Jewish rebel leader who was captured by Roman general Vespasian. But he so impressed Vespasian enough to save his life. He promised Vespasian he'd write a history of the Jewish people, as Vespasian was interested in it.

  He prophesied that Vespasian would become Caesar, & when that prediction came to pass, V was so impressed that he made Josephus a member of the Flavius family. Thus, J was free to produce his writings that kept Vespasian, and later, Titus, happy. While his accounts of several events in the first Jewish-Roman war seem fairly-accurate, he added some embellishments of his account of the sieges of Jerusalem by Vespasian and Titus. For example, he described seeing & hearing chariots in the sky above Jerusalem, his being the only one of several hundred thousand people in that area to have witnessed them !

  Josephus is often called "The Jewish Benedict Arnold" for his betrayal of his troops when facing defeat by the Romans. However, he lived the rest of his days under Roman patronage.

  In other words, he was not a very reliable witness to the events involving Vespasian & Titus, as he didn't dare say or write anything that might offend them.

Yet he did write of the fact that the temple caught fire and burned down while the Romans were trying to get control of it in 70 A.D., thus revealing that it was impossible for the Romans to fulfill the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel 11:31, which Preterists claim the abomination did happen then, some of them even in confusion as to what the "abomination of desolation" is really about (i.e., an idol abomination placed inside a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem).

[3 Resurrections]

The "abomination of desolation" is not a mystery.  Christ Himself defined what He meant by the "abomination of desolation", mentioned in both Daniel 11:31 (fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes) and also in Daniel 12:11 (fulfilled by the Romans).  We don't need to go any further than His words for our understanding.  By comparing the other gospels' corresponding accounts of Christ's warning with the same occasion of warning  described in Luke 21:20, that "abomination of desolation" was NOT going to be a so-called idol placed in Jerusalem's temple, as is often proposed.

The "abomination of desolation" Jesus defined specifically in Luke 21:20 was going to be "Jerusalem compassed with ARMIES".  And this was NOT referring to AD 70.  Christ said that these armies would surround Jerusalem at the BEGINNING of the Great Tribulation period (which was the signal for those in Judea to flee to the mountains to escape those "days of vengeance" coming upon Israel).  It was in October of AD 66 with the arrival of Cestius Gallus and his Roman troops who surrounded Jerusalem.   

Besides the Roman army of Cestius Gallus, the PLURAL "ARMIES" that were going to surround Jerusalem also included the Jewish Zealot armies who gathered to do battle with Cestius Gallus, and were surprisingly victorious over his inept battle strategies.  As those from the Jewish Zealot army chased the retreating army of Gallus from Jerusalem, it freed up a precious couple of days for any believers in Jerusalem to heed Christ's warning in Luke 21:21 to flee the city for the mountains, which Josephus records happening (Wars 2.19.6 and 2.20.1).

Any person in Jerusalem suspected of opposing the Zealots' cause was accused of sympathizing with the Romans, and soon  became a victim of the Zealot army's violence  when they had returned to Jerusalem after defeating Cestius Gallus' army (Wars 2.20.3). That meant both Roman and Jewish armies were a threat to any of the believers who did not heed Christ's warning to flee the city without delay, once they saw these opposing armies facing off at Jerusalem in AD 66.

[dpr]

The "abomination of desolation" is not a mystery.  Christ Himself defined what He meant by the "abomination of desolation", mentioned in both Daniel 11:31 (fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes) and also in Daniel 12:11 (fulfilled by the Romans).  We don't need to go any further than His words for our understanding.  By comparing the other gospels' corresponding accounts of Christ's warning with the same occasion of warning  described in Luke 21:20, that "abomination of desolation" was NOT going to be a so-called idol placed in Jerusalem's temple, as is often proposed.

The "abomination of desolation" Jesus defined specifically in Luke 21:20 was going to be "Jerusalem compassed with ARMIES".  And this was NOT referring to AD 70.  Christ said that these armies would surround Jerusalem at the BEGINNING of the Great Tribulation period (which was the signal for those in Judea to flee to the mountains to escape those "days of vengeance" coming upon Israel).  It was in October of AD 66 with the arrival of Cestius Gallus and his Roman troops who surrounded Jerusalem.   
....

Of course Preterism doesn't like to use the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scripture where Jesus quoted the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel. Preterists prefer to skip those Scriptures and instead go straight to Luke 21 which does NOT quote the "abomination of desolation" from Daniel.

Luke 21 does not mention the "abomination of desolation."

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

Preterists try to make that "desolation" mean the "abomination of desolation", but IT IS NOT. Here is the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

The Luke 21 "desolation" event is about armies surrounding Jerusalem at the very end of this world, with the "days of vengeance" getting ready to happen there, which is about Jesus' 2nd coming to end the reign of the wicked. There's to be a destruction there, which is why He is warning those in Judea to flee. That is NOT the "abomination of desolation" event.

The "abomination of desolation" event happens PRIOR to that Luke 21:20-22 event. The coming of the Antichrist and sacrifices with a new temple in Jerusalem must happen first, and then the Antichrist will end those sacrifices and PLACE the abomination IDOL that makes the temple SPIRITUALLY DESOLATE. That setup of an IDOL in Jerusalem is for the time of "great tribulation". The "days of vengeance" is for the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus returns.

[lea]

The abomination of desolation is mentioned three times in the book of Daniel:

• "And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the [a]oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

• "Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate." (Daniel 11:31)

• "And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days." (Daniel 12:11)

Daniel 11:31 is about Antiochus Epiphanes . So why are you using that reference of an abomination of desolation only?

Also, Luke wrote to Gentile Christians. Luke 21:27,
The Return of the Son of Man
...27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

[robycop3]

  Jesus provd the "Antiochus" theory wrong when He said, "WHEN YOU SEE the AOD..."

[dpr]

The abomination of desolation is mentioned three times in the book of Daniel:
....

Daniel 11:31 is about Antiochus Epiphanes . So why are you using that reference of an abomination of desolation only?

You forgot the Daniel 8:9-14 version, which would make 4.

Like robycop3 said, when Jesus quoted from Daniel about the placing of the abomination idol in Jerusalem, that immediately meant look for a final fulfillment. The events Antiochus IV did not completely fulfill the Dan.11 Scripture, even though he historically serves as the best blueprint for it. Jesus forecast the Daniel event about 200 years AFTER Antiochus had been dead, so NO BRAINER! The AOD in Jerusalem supported by FALSE JEWS is still future!

FYI... all of the events written in Daniel about the end of sacrifices and placing of an abomination idol are about the same... event for the END of this world during the time of "great tribulation". The setting up of that IDOL in a temple in JERUSALEM (like what Antiochus IV did back in 165 B.C.), is when Jesus marked the start of the actual time of tribulation for the end of this world.

Also, Luke wrote to Gentile Christians.[/color] Luke 21:27,
The Return of the Son of Man
...27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

As I said before, the Luke 21 version of Christ's Olivet discourse does NOT mention the "abomination of desolation" event. Instead it is pointing to when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies and the 7th Vial is getting ready to be poured out upon them, which is about the battle of Armageddon on the "day of the Lord", i.e., the LAST DAY of this present world.

And just so happens, that LAST DAY when that battle happens, that ALSO is the day of Christ's SECOND coming to gather His faithful Church.

[lea]

Friend, you aren't ever going to see another Temple in Jerusalem so you don't even have to project your bad news about any sacrifices.

As I said before, the Luke 21 version of Christ's Olivet discourse does NOT mention the "abomination of desolation" event. Instead it is pointing to when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies and the 7th Vial is getting ready to be poured out upon them, which is about the battle of Armageddon on the "day of the Lord", i.e., the LAST DAY of this present world.

And just so happens, that LAST DAY when that battle happens, that ALSO is the day of Christ's SECOND coming to gather His faithful Church.

Present world? Friend, you best study Biblical eschatology better you're doing.

And what the hell why would Christ come and gather his church now? You want to go to heaven now? Before you and your grandkids and kids lived out their earthly lives?

That's what your prophecy says,.,,,,,,, Let's all die and go to heaven because we are not overcomers in this world. But need to die to live in peace. Learn the gospel friend!

How about it?

[robycop3]

  Well, ACTUALLY, it's plain the Jews will build another temple in J. They have all the materials gathered & have made all the instruments for use in it. And just recently, they consecrated an altar to be set up in it. And, they're breeding the animals, such as red heifers, to be used in temple rites.All they're waiting for is the right time, when it won't set off WW3.

  This temple must exist before the AOD can occur. It didn't occur in the old one.

[lea]

  Well, ACTUALLY, it's plain the Jews will build another temple in J. They have all the materials gathered & have made all the instruments for use in it. And just recently, they consecrated an altar to be set up in it. And, they're breeding the animals, such as red heifers, to be used in temple rites.All they're waiting for is the right time, when it won't set off WW3.

  This temple must exist before the AOD can occur. It didn't occur in the old one.

And I bet you want a front row seat!

[robycop3]

And I bet you want a front row seat!

Well, not ACTUALLY. it's not guaranteed to happen shortly, but if so, I hope the rapture occurs before then. But it WILL happen.

[dpr]

Friend, you aren't ever going to see another Temple in Jerusalem so you don't even have to project your bad news about any sacrifices.

Ah... so that's what it is. You don't like the fact that Jesus warned of FALSE JEWS allowing the setting up of an idol abomination in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the very end of this world! (Matthew 24:15-26; Daniel 11:21-32).

That's just... tough! What God's Word says is what will happen.

[3 Resurrections]

The Luke 21 account is a recounting of the exact same section of the Olivet discourse prophecy that the other disciples were hearing at the same time Luke was.   Luke's gospel INTERPRETS and tells us in plain language what that "abomination of desolation" in the other gospel accounts actually was going to be. 

"Jerusalem surrounded by armies" was prophesied by Daniel to occur more than once in history.  The "abomination of desolation" under Antiochus Epiphanes happened when Daniel 11:31 said that "ARMS shall stand on his part", meaning that an ARMY in Jerusalem (as an "abomination that makes desolate") would be set up in a position of supporting Antiochus Epiphanes' plans for control in that city.  That's a "standing ARMY" that was placed in Jerusalem at that time to suppress the people  and the exercise of their faith.  There's no mention whatever of a supposed "idol" being placed in Jerusalem's Temple in that text.  That's an assumption with absolutely zero scripture backing for it.

For the other later occasion when the abomination of desolation would be set up, Daniel 9:27 said about the city of a Jerusalem and the temple that "with the abominable ARMIES he shall make it desolate...".   These "abominable ARMIES" which would end up causing desolation in AD 70 Jerusalem were what Luke remembered from the Daniel 9:27 prophecy as he was listening to Christ's Olivet discourse about the "abomination of desolation".  While the other gospel accounts  simply left the phrase without interpretation, Luke by inspiration interpreted it for us and clearly recorded it in Luke 21:12 as "Jerusalem surrounded by armies". 

This was not timed for the end of human history, but for the time when the "power of the holy people" was going to be shattered (Daniel 12:7).  By then, every part of Daniel's prophecy would be "FINISHED", according to the messenger revealing the visions to Daniel.

This doesn't leave any room for a rebuilt  Temple, priesthood, or for restored sacrifices and worship in a rebuilt temple.  No matter what preparations or plans are being made at present.  They are nothing but vanity in God's eyes that will come to nothing.

[robycop3]

  Nice try, 3Rs, but Antiochus did his stuff in 168 BC, far-too-early to fulfill the prophecies of Jesus, Paul, & Revelation. Jesus said, "WHEN you see..." And Paul wrote, in 2 Thess: 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.  And make no mistake; the 'beast' from the sea, antichrist, man of sin, "that Wicked", & son of perdition(besides judas) will all be the same man.

  Now, I won't rule out a double fulfillment, that AE's 168 BC defilement wasn't a type of the AOD. he set up a statue of Zeus in the temple & sacrificed a pig upon the altar of incense. Remember, Rev says the beast will set up his statue (image) in the temple, which his sidekick, the false prophet, will supernaturally make speak. (I say this'll be supernatural, as no one marvels at a statue speaking electronically.)

  Now, I don't know if Antiochus declared himself God while in the temple, but Paul says the man of sin will.

  I believe AE's desecration of the old temple was meant to show us what the coming AOD will consist of. It was NOT the surrounding of J by the Roman army, as J has been surrounded by various hostile armies several times since then, the latest being in 1947-48 when Arab & Jordanian forces surrounded & attacked J, seeking to eliminate its Jewish occupants. They managed to take east J, but the Jews remained in control of the west.

  Titus did not enter the temple himself, but his men burned it & tore it down, believing gold had been secreted between its stones, fulfilling Jesus' prophecy that not one stone would be left upon another.

  Yes, the AOD prophesied by Jesus is a separate event, still to come.

[lea]

Now, I don't know if Antiochus declared himself God while in the temple, but Paul says the man of sin will.

Well, you best start studying, because he did.

Shows you have no idea about Dan.11. 

And your silly immature "rapture" is fake news.

Prophecy ended in AD70.  Get with the present time reality and the Good News!

[robycop3]

  How silly ! You believe quax like Preston or Gentry over your Bible and actual history.

  There's LOTS of prophecy yet to be fulfilled. And JESUS made it plain that the AOD had NOT occurred before His earthly time when He said "WHEN YOU SEE the AOD..." So, whatever Antiochus did was a "trial run".

[lea]

  How silly ! You believe quax like Preston or Gentry over your Bible and actual history.

  There's LOTS of prophecy yet to be fulfilled. And JESUS made it plain that the AOD had NOT occurred before His earthly time when He said "WHEN YOU SEE the AOD..." So, whatever Antiochus did was a "trial run".

Only God knows the future. You don't.

[robycop3]

Only God knows the future. You don't.

But God gives us a general outline for it in His written word, which most prets don't believe.

[3 Resurrections]

Agreed, robycop3,

We do have a "general outline" of human history on this planet given to us from scripture; a pattern as presented in the original creation week's seven days.  I believe scripture presents a total of seven thousand years total of history for fallen mankind on this planet, with one day (such as each day of creation week) being the equivalent of a thousand year period of history, as Peter told the believers in II Peter 3:8.

We are now approaching the very end of the sixth millennium (in 2033).  By then, the entire world will have entered a type of "sabbath-day" rest period for the final thousand years.  In other words, the whole Corona deal across the world right now does not surprise me in the slightest.  The world is about to shift into a different mode of existence, and all for God's good purpose behind it of advancing the kingdom of God in this world, as He promised.

Though Revelation's unsealed, revealed, "AT HAND" prophecies were all fulfilled during that first-century generation, yet Rev. 10:4 allows for some "sealed up" prophecies that were NOT to be fulfilled during that generation.  These "sealed up" prophecies are for us, and there are other places in scripture that can only apply to post-AD 70 times.

(P.S.)  Personally, I have never read or purchased a single book by Preston - only listened to some of his "Morning Musings" on occasion.  And I've read only one of Gentry's works, (namely "Before Jerusalem Fell"), and differ with some of his deductions.  In fact, Dr. Gentry no longer posts my comments when I submit them to his site, because I counter some of his views with scripture, which trumps any man's observations, no matter how reputable.  Most of my developed paradigm was arrived at by concentrated study of the whole of scripture, referring to the original language as best I am able  - not based on men's commentaries of it.

[lea]

But God gives us a general outline for it in His written word, which most prets don't believe.

OOh, but God's general outline is not found in ESCHATOLOGY.  It is found in SOTERIOLOGY.

Since all was fulfilled in the PAST,  feel fulfilled about that and now look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our Faith and His grace/blessings for daily living- and great hope for the future in Him. Thank you Lord!