Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion

[Johnb]

Chirstnu
Where does the scripture make a proper understanding of the man made doctrine of the trinity a salvation issue?  There are many things I find wrong with the LDS but a difference in understanding of the trinity is not sufficient to reject them.

[Thankfulldad]

I am not here to debate what is not debatable, there are already threads for that. The fact that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, is another foundational truth of Christianity that is a stumbling block to all others who would claim the the title of Christian. It is meant to be. It is another of the many disqualifiers for LDS.

So you use the Trinity as a disqualifier, even in light of such passages that blatantly contradict the concept of the Trinity? Let's say that you are right, that the Trinity is biblical. Are you then saying that God will keep me out of heaven because I interpreted his being differently, when even you must realize that it is not so clear cut?

I'll ask again. Does the Bible at any time say one must accept the Trinity in order to be saved?

The Trinity is a very clearcut foundational truth of Christianity. The reason it is a stumbling block to you is because it is supposed to be, it is how we weed out the imposter's from the real deal.

It is one thing to be ignorant, or simply unaware, those are not disqualifiers. What is a disqualifier is to consciously reject the God who is; and the God who is, is the God who reveals Himself as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

You are perfectly free to just create your own God, your own Jesus, and then bow down and worship what you have created. But, God calls that idolatry, because that is what it is. The question that Jesus asks of every man, woman and child today is the same question He asked 2000 years ago, "who do you say that I AM?". If you do not know Jesus Christ as God, then you do not know Jesus Christ.

Amen!  Then they write a new book, make a list of rules, add a few heavens, put on garments, add satan as Jesus brother, even say that God asked satan and Jesus for a plan of salvation...and God chose the plan that Jesus came up with, on and on and on...then call themself Christians

[the_last_gunslinger]

Gunsliger you really did not answer the basic question.  If the apostles were led into all truth about the Son of God and salvation why would we need another book?  Do we need to look for one where God revealed Himself to those in China, or Alaska or Africa?  Why do I need to know this?  

I'm not sure how else to answer it. The Book of Mormon is considered another Testament of Jesus Christ. It's primary purpose for us is to strengthen the testimony of the Holy Bible, and serve as a witness to Smith's prophetic calling. Like the Bible, it teaches great truths about Christ and I believe man, following its precepts will be better for it. I still don't see how this is any different than the four gospels. Why do we need four of them? Wasn't one sufficient?

You have admitted that there have been revisions for grammatical errors.  So God gave His revelation but could not communicate it in proper English?  From what I have studied of Joesph Smith he was almost illiterate.  

First off, though God revealed the meaning of the characters on the plates, I don't believe that he literally guided Smith's hands to make sure that he put commas in the right place. But even so, most of the error were typographical, meaning that they occurred during printing. Machines make mistakes and to say that a book of Scripture cannot be true if there are grammatical mistakes is erroneous, since numerous Bibles have also been printed with such errors.

From real history he was killed by a nob that included men among his own followers because of his polygamy views.  some of his "wives" were married to other men and some of the men that killed him said he was trying to make their wives his wives.  This is clearly adultery and continued until Utah wanted to become a state and Brigham Young had a new revelation that ended the official practice although several splinter groups still continue to this day.  It seems like very a convenient time for a "new revelation.
Was God wrong when he revealed this to Joseph Smith or when he made the new revelation to Young?

This is the first time I've heard that other members were part of the mob. Is it true? Could be, but it is of little consequence. It's true Smith was a polygamist, and whether that order came from God or not, I really don't know. Nor does it concern me. I don't know whose wives he was married to, or if he took others. There is so much disagreement on all sides that I don't let that concern me. All I do know is that if he was married to other's wives, it would have been for the sole purpose of being sealed for eternity. There has been extensive research by the detractors of the church to prove that Smith was an adulterer, but to this day, despite multiple DNA testings, they can only verify that Joseph Smith had children only with his wife, Emma. So at this pint, there is no proof that these other marriages were anything but platonic.

In regards to the new revelation abolishing plural marriage, I see nothing out of line with God sending a revelation when it serves his people best. If God desired for Utah to become a state, and he no longer required plural marriages, I think it's perfectly reasonable him ending the practice. I will just point out, though, that it was not Brigham Young who ended it; it was Wilford Woodruff.
Can you see why traditional Christians reject the B of M?

[ChristNU]

Chirstnu
Where does the scripture make a proper understanding of the man made doctrine of the trinity a salvation issue?  There are many things I find wrong with the LDS but a difference in understanding of the trinity is not sufficient to reject them.

The denial of the Trinity, is absolutely sufficient to disqualify LDS as Christian.

[the_last_gunslinger]

The denial of the Trinity, is absolutely sufficient to disqualify LDS as Christian.

Would you care to show me the scriptural passage that states this?

[Thankfulldad]

The denial of the Trinity, is absolutely sufficient to disqualify LDS as Christian.

Would you care to show me the scriptural passage that states this?

Do you believe that the Bible has enough information in it for man to enter the highest heaven possible within the LDS religion?

[the_last_gunslinger]

Amen!  Then they write a new book, make a list of rules, add a few heavens, put on garments, add satan as Jesus brother, even say that God asked satan and Jesus for a plan of salvation...and God chose the plan that Jesus came up with, on and on and on...then call themself Christians Frowning

Having a new book of scripture does not disqualify someone as a Christian. The Bible itself does not claim that the Bible is all there is...How could it? It hadn't even been compiled yet. We also did not make a list of rules. Most of these 'rules' are found in the Bible. I'm not sure why you'd have a problem with them. And with multiple levels of heaven, first it is referenced in the Bible, plus, it just makes logical sense. God is a God of mercy and justice. He rewards us according to our works, as stated in the Book of Revelation. This necessitates varying degrees of reward. We are not all good enough to obtain the highest heaven, nor are we all wicked enough to be cast into hell. You are dealing in absolutes here.

I know your ire for our church doctrine, but still, none of these things can disqualify someone as being Christian.

I guess I'll ask this: What does it take to gain salvation in the kingdom of God? And: Give me your best definition of what a Christian is. Maybe we can work systematically through these here, see where that gets us.

[OldDad]

I'd like to see a "scriptural passage" about the Magic Underwear...

[Johnb]

The denial of the Trinity, is absolutely sufficient to disqualify LDS as Christian.

Would you care to show me the scriptural passage that states this?

Do you believe that the Bible has enough information in it for man to enter the highest heaven possible within the LDS religion?

I would also be interested in seeing the answer to this question.
Also can one be a Christian without the book of Mormon?

[Thankfulldad]

I guess I'll ask this: What does it take to gain salvation in the kingdom of God? And: Give me your best definition of what a Christian is. Maybe we can work systematically through these here, see where that gets us.

Hearing the true gospel message: which is that Jesus (God in human flesh) died on the cross for our sin, trusting in Jesus alone for Salvation, He is the narrow door, the only way, no one come to the Father but by Jesus.  Salvation is easy because it cost God so much; living the Christian life can be hard, and thank God that it is...God creates in us a new heart, a new creation in Him.  From Salvation to Sanctification...it is God working in our life; as we trust Him...

A Christian trusts in Jesus alone for Salvation; and believes the Bible is the perfect infallible Word of God without error...

[ChristNU]

The denial of the Trinity, is absolutely sufficient to disqualify LDS as Christian.

Would you care to show me the scriptural passage that states this?

It is the orthodox position of the Christian church, hammered out long ago by the greater Christian community under the guidance of the Holy spirit. Christianity rejects those who reject the Trinity, because God has revealed Himself as such through the entirety of His written word.

[ChristNU]

I'd like to see a "scriptural passage" about the Magic Underwear...

[LaSpino3]

Gunslinger, finally found this section. 74 year old Dino, sorry. I will not reply to anyone but you, and your comments.

Let me lead off with this question. "Why are you interested in the Bible, as in purpose, and end product?  What is it your seeking? If my question is not clear, I will try to re-word it.

Example. We buy a plot of land, lumber, electrical, and plumbing supplies, to do what? To build a home so we can move into it. Not to please our relatives, or neighbors, or to show off any skills we possess, but to have a place for you, and your family to live.

Phil LaSpino

[the_last_gunslinger]

Gunslinger, finally found this section. 74 year old Dino, sorry. I will not reply to anyone but you, and your comments.

Let me lead off with this question. "Why are you interested in the Bible, as in purpose, and end product?  What is it your seeking? If my question is not clear, I will try to re-word it.

Example. We buy a plot of land, lumber, electrical, and plumbing supplies, to do what? To build a home so we can move into it. Not to please our relatives, or neighbors, or to show off any skills we possess, but to have a place for you, and your family to live.

Phil LaSpino

I was in the process of answering your PM, when I realized you posted. Glad you found the forum.

I think I know what you're asking, and I think the answer is a complex one. First and foremost, I believe the Bible to be the Word of God. I believe that my relationship with Christ is enhanced when I attempt to live by the standards set forth there. The current President of the Church, Thomas S. Monson, in the most recent Ensign Magazine, wrote an article titled "Living the Abundant Live." I think at my core, this is my goal, to live a life of spiritual abundance, to be inspired by the words and deeds of the savior, to do my best to live my life in a manner pleasing to Him.

I hope this answers your question.

[pointmade]

My problem with modern day revelation is verification....the early church verified the word with "signs."
When Jesus sent his apostles out with the Gospel ("go teach, etc") They had the "promise" of John 14:14,
"Anything you ask in my name I will do it."

He never expected men to believe without verification. After all, they were sent into
a world of Greek mystery religions of Homer and Hesiod, Socratice,
Plato's dualism: metaphysical, epistemological,  and anthropological was believed.

Note Paul's discussion on Mars hill with the philosophers ( Epicureans and Stoic ) in Athens (Acts 17:17).
Paul said, the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men to repent; because he
has appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has raised
from the dead." "Righteousness" is an action that takes place in the mind of God, would you agree?

God worked special miracles by the hands of Paul ( Acts 19:11 ). These miracles were worked to verify
God's message.......My friends in the charismatic churches fail to verify their revelation.
Islam is not supported by miracles.

Not to be disrespectable, I have not seen the evidence if miracles in Mormonism and as I understand in
Salt Lake City the Mormon Church claims the "Twelve Apostles."
Catholicism claims the Papacy as the succession of Peter. They too, cannot verify.
Oh yes, they too claim to have seen visions, crying statues and portraits...
Fact is, when called upon to cause "the blind to see, the lame to walk, the leapers cleansed, the deaf
to hear, and the dead raised ( Luke 7:22 ) the modern day pope fails miserably.
It is one thing to report that the Spirit reveals Himself today outside the Word, but quite another to verify as in
Mark 16:20; Acts 5:12; 14:3; 1 Cor. 2, 4,5; Heb. 2:4.

Paul calls the New Testament "the Spirit that gives life" ( 2 Cor. 3:6 ).
Has this claim been rescinded by the Mormon Church?
If not, why would Joseph Smith claim that "the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on
earth and the keystone of our religion, and a man would be nearer to God by abiding by its precepts,
than by any other book" ( Introduction )?
Would this not take an act of the Holy Spirit to rescind this revelation by Paul that he verified by signs?

[chosenone]

I guess I'll ask this: What does it take to gain salvation in the kingdom of God? And: Give me your best definition of what a Christian is. Maybe we can work systematically through these here, see where that gets us.

Hearing the true gospel message: which is that Jesus (God in human flesh) died on the cross for our sin, trusting in Jesus alone for Salvation, He is the narrow door, the only way, no one come to the Father but by Jesus.  Salvation is easy because it cost God so much; living the Christian life can be hard, and thank God that it is...God creates in us a new heart, a new creation in Him.  From Salvation to Sanctification...it is God working in our life; as we trust Him...

A Christian trusts in Jesus alone for Salvation; and believes the Bible is the perfect infallible Word of God without error...

Amen

[the_last_gunslinger]

It is the orthodox position of the Christian church, hammered out long ago by the greater Christian community under the guidance of the Holy spirit. Christianity rejects those who reject the Trinity, because God has revealed Himself as such through the entirety of His written word.

This is exactly why I doubt this doctrine. It was a position, "hammered out long ago" in various councils where people debated the very nature of God. Accepting these creeds, in my opinion, is accepting extra biblical writings for doctrinal clarification.

I still contest that the Trinity is not to be found in the Bible. No one can answer yet how Christ can be the Son of God, if he IS God. Nor can anyone tell me how the Father can be the Son's God, if they are both One God.

[the_last_gunslinger]

Hearing the true gospel message: which is that Jesus (God in human flesh) died on the cross for our sin, trusting in Jesus alone for Salvation, He is the narrow door, the only way, no one come to the Father but by Jesus.  Salvation is easy because it cost God so much; living the Christian life can be hard, and thank God that it is...God creates in us a new heart, a new creation in Him.  From Salvation to Sanctification...it is God working in our life; as we trust Him...

A Christian trusts in Jesus alone for Salvation; and believes the Bible is the perfect infallible Word of God without error...

I have accepted that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, and I too trust in Jesus alone for salvation. I'm good on those two points. What I contest, however, is the unbiblical doctrine of the Trinity. Nowhere can this doctrine be espoused in its entirety, and nowhere does it say that belief in the Trinity is essential for salvation. Would you agree on that point?

And again, where is it written that the Bible alone is sufficient for salvation? The Bible certainly makes no such assertions. And considering that the Bible as we know it was not compiled until long after Christ's death, under what authority do you claim the Bible is all there is?

[Thankfulldad]

It is the orthodox position of the Christian church, hammered out long ago by the greater Christian community under the guidance of the Holy spirit. Christianity rejects those who reject the Trinity, because God has revealed Himself as such through the entirety of His written word.

This is exactly why I doubt this doctrine. It was a position, "hammered out long ago" in various councils where people debated the very nature of God. Accepting these creeds, in my opinion, is accepting extra biblical writings for doctrinal clarification.

I still contest that the Trinity is not to be found in the Bible. No one can answer yet how Christ can be the Son of God, if he IS God. Nor can anyone tell me how the Father can be the Son's God, if they are both One God.

When you trust in the Bible alone as the Word of God without error; listen to what God tells us...it becomes clear that Jesus was the one true God; and that the Trinity is truth.  Your denial of this clears the way...that the LDS are not Christian.

[Thankfulldad]

Hearing the true gospel message: which is that Jesus (God in human flesh) died on the cross for our sin, trusting in Jesus alone for Salvation, He is the narrow door, the only way, no one come to the Father but by Jesus.  Salvation is easy because it cost God so much; living the Christian life can be hard, and thank God that it is...God creates in us a new heart, a new creation in Him.  From Salvation to Sanctification...it is God working in our life; as we trust Him...

A Christian trusts in Jesus alone for Salvation; and believes the Bible is the perfect infallible Word of God without error...

I have accepted that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, and I too trust in Jesus alone for salvation.

Then why the need for the Book of Morman...why???

[the_last_gunslinger]

The denial of the Trinity, is absolutely sufficient to disqualify LDS as Christian.

Would you care to show me the scriptural passage that states this?

Do you believe that the Bible has enough information in it for man to enter the highest heaven possible within the LDS religion?

I would also be interested in seeing the answer to this question.
Also can one be a Christian without the book of Mormon?

To the first question, I believe the Bible contains the pure, unadulterated message of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is, He is the Son of God, sent down to Earth by the Father to be the redeemer of mankind, and that salvation is offered to all those who believe in him and call upon his name. What I think the Bible lacks is clarification on some issues. Specifics are missing. Like baptism, the Bible makes it clear that it is essential, but does not give specifics of how it is to be done. Also, though I believe that the Bible speaks of eternal marriage when Peter was given the power to bind on earth and in heaven, the Bible alone does not make that explicit, so it is essential to have clarification on that issue.

As for Johnb's question, it is certainly possible to be a Christian without accepting the Book of Mormon. Nearly everyone on this website is a Christian if they trust in Christ as their savior and strive to live according to his principles.

[ChristNU]

It is the orthodox position of the Christian church, hammered out long ago by the greater Christian community under the guidance of the Holy spirit. Christianity rejects those who reject the Trinity, because God has revealed Himself as such through the entirety of His written word.

This is exactly why I doubt this doctrine. It was a position, "hammered out long ago" in various councils where people debated the very nature of God. Accepting these creeds, in my opinion, is accepting extra biblical writings for doctrinal clarification.

I still contest that the Trinity is not to be found in the Bible. No one can answer yet how Christ can be the Son of God, if he IS God. Nor can anyone tell me how the Father can be the Son's God, if they are both One God.

Lol. Now that's truly hilarious, a Mormon not accepting something that is "based on extra biblical writings". Lol.

Nonetheless it is not a doctrine based on extra biblical writings, it is based on the written word of God.

I am not going to debate the truth of the Trinity with you here. But, as I already said, the answer to your question lies in another foundational truth of Christianity, that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man.

[the_last_gunslinger]

Then why the need for the Book of Morman...why???

One of my favorite passages in the Book of Mormon deals with this question. I have quoted it below:

2 Nephi 29:7-11

7 Know ye not that there are more anations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the bisles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the cearth beneath; and I bring forth my dword unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the atestimony of btwo nations is a cwitness unto you that I am God, that I remember one dnation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two enations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the asame yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my bwords according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one cword ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my dwork is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my awords; neither bneed ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command aall men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall bwrite the words which I speak unto them; for out of the cbooks which shall be written I will djudge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

[Thankfulldad]

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the asame yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my bwords according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one cword ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my dwork is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Wow...this is pure blasphemy!  Jesus said  (on the cross)..."it is finished"; He came...completed the work...and, we now can rest in Him!

Sorry, this is just another reason why...the LDS are NOT Christians...

[the_last_gunslinger]

Lol. Now that's truly hilarious, a Mormon not accepting something that is "based on extra biblical writings". Lol.

Nonetheless it is not a doctrine based on extra biblical writings, it is based on the written word of God.

I am not going to debate the truth of the Trinity with you here. But, as I already said, the answer to your question lies in another foundational truth of Christianity, that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man.

As a Mormon, it's perfectly normal for me to accept not Biblical sources. Keep in mind, I said "Non-Biblical." I can accept the Book of Mormon also (as well as the D&C and Pearl of Great Price) because they, too are scripture. But for someone who believes the Bible to contain all there is to know, someone that claims the Trinity is perfectly spelled out in the Bible, why then would you accept the writings of men, non-biblical, non-scriptural writings. And if the Bible was so clear on the Trinity, why then did they hold a council to try and pin down the doctrine?

[the_last_gunslinger]

Wow...this is pure blasphemy!  Jesus said  (on the cross)..."it is finished"; He came...completed the work...and we now can rest in Him!!!

Sorry, this is just another reason why...the LDS are NOT Christians..

I see no contradictions here. Christ's work was finished, the work of the salvation of souls. But that doesn't mean God and Christ are not ever going to do anything ever again, does it? If it is finished is taken as literally as you are, then God must not answer prayers. What would be the point? He  claimed that it is finished, that there is no work to do. Clearly this is not what is meant here. Your interpretation of "It is Finished" would indicate that there will be no second coming, no answer to prayers, no more working of God with man. Is that what you are implying here, or am I misreading this?

[ChristNU]

Lol. Now that's truly hilarious, a Mormon not accepting something that is "based on extra biblical writings". Lol.

Nonetheless it is not a doctrine based on extra biblical writings, it is based on the written word of God.

I am not going to debate the truth of the Trinity with you here. But, as I already said, the answer to your question lies in another foundational truth of Christianity, that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man.

As a Mormon, it's perfectly normal for me to accept not Biblical sources. Keep in mind, I said "Non-Biblical." I can accept the Book of Mormon also (as well as the D&C and Pearl of Great Price) because they, too are scripture. But for someone who believes the Bible to contain all there is to know, someone that claims the Trinity is perfectly spelled out in the Bible, why then would you accept the writings of men, non-biblical, non-scriptural writings. And if the Bible was so clear on the Trinity, why then did they hold a council to try and pin down the doctrine?

You do nothing to help your case for inclusion within Christianity, by further clarifying that what you believe is not what Christians believe. What you describe is why LDS is not Christian.

[the_last_gunslinger]

My problem with modern day revelation is verification....the early church verified the word with "signs."
When Jesus sent his apostles out with the Gospel ("go teach, etc") They had the "promise" of John 14:14,
"Anything you ask in my name I will do it."

I'm in agreement. The true church has miracles and signs. The LDS church has these. I've seen it myself. Not asking you to accept my accounts, but I am safe in the knowledge of what I personally have witnessed.

God worked special miracles by the hands of Paul ( Acts 19:11 ). These miracles were worked to verify
God's message.......My friends in the charismatic churches fail to verify their revelation.
Islam is not supported by miracles.

I'm confused here, do you believe miracles can still take place today or not? To me, the LDS church has been verified by miracles. Many journals from early members of the  church recount such miraculous happenings as casting out devils, of healing those who are near death. At the building of the first temple in this dispensation, the followers were overcome by an almost pentecostal outpouring of spirit, where many miracles were wrought. And as if that were not enough, as I've stated earlier, I have witnessed these miracles for myself, leaving no doubt that the LDS church is a miracle-working entity.

[the_last_gunslinger]

You do nothing to help your case for inclusion within Christianity, by further clarifying that what you believe is not what Christians believe. What you describe is why LDS is not Christian

.

How so? I stated that it is not essential for me to believe the Bible to be the sole Christian authority, and I claimed that the Trinity likewise is not essential for inclusion within the body of Christian believers. I have asked for biblical evidence speaking to the contrary and no one has been able to supply any. So I ask this, under what authority are you claiming LDS are not Christians? The litmus test you are putting forth is not supported by the Bible.

[Thankfulldad]

Wow...this is pure blasphemy!  Jesus said  (on the cross)..."it is finished"; He came...completed the work...and we now can rest in Him!!!

Sorry, this is just another reason why...the LDS are NOT Christians..

I see no contradictions here. Christ's work was finished, the work of the salvation of souls. But that doesn't mean God and Christ are not ever going to do anything ever again, does it? If it is finished is taken as literally as you are, then God must not answer prayers. What would be the point? He  claimed that it is finished, that there is no work to do. Clearly this is not what is meant here. Your interpretation of "It is Finished" would indicate that there will be no second coming, no answer to prayers, no more working of God with man. Is that what you are implying here, or am I misreading this?

Listen, the work of salvation was completed on the cross...period!  Any work that God does through believers is that of sanctification, love...spreading the good news of the competed work of salvation through Jesus Christ (God) on the cross.  That work continues...but, there is NO further work in and of ourself for us being saved...or rewards of a HIGER HEAVEN, or several heavens depending on us. The salvation work is done, complete, perfectly done through Jesus (God with us)...

Bottom line...do you believe there is one heaven, one plan of Salvation (found only in the Bible)...and that Jesus FININSHED this work of Salvation for us?

[ChristNU]

You do nothing to help your case for inclusion within Christianity, by further clarifying that what you believe is not what Christians believe. What you describe is why LDS is not Christian

.

How so? I stated that it is not essential for me to believe the Bible to be the sole Christian authority, and I claimed that the Trinity likewise is not essential for inclusion within the body of Christian believers. I have asked for biblical evidence speaking to the contrary and no one has been able to supply any. So I ask this, under what authority are you claiming LDS are not Christians? The litmus test you are putting forth is not supported by the Bible.

The placing of the book of Mormon on the same level as The Bible is as grievously heretical as any error in your teaching that you could possibly have hoped to add to the conversation. You prove our point well.

[the_last_gunslinger]

The placing of the book of Mormon on the same level as The Bible is as grievously heretical as any error in your teaching that you could possibly have hoped to add to the conversation. You prove our point well.

I keep hearing such sentiments, yet no one can illustrate how. Why is it heretical? Again, where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is all there is?

[the_last_gunslinger]

Listen, the work of salvation was completed on the cross...period!  Any work that God does through believers is that of sanctification, love...spreading the good news of the competed work of salvation through Jesus Christ (God) on the cross.  That work continues...but, there is NO further work in and of ourself for us being saved...or rewards of a HIGER HEAVEN, or several heavens depending on us. The salvation work is done, complete, perfectly done through Jesus (God with us)...

Oh, I most certainly agree that the work of salvation was finished on the cross. I never said otherwise. My point was that it is not out of line when the Book of Mormon claims that there is more work to be done from now until the end of the earth. The passage I quoted never stated that there is more to salvation than what Christ did on the cross, only that God's work is not finished. You yourself have even admitted that God has more work to do in terms of sanctification. That is most likely what the Book of Mormon is saying. So we are actually in agreement here.

Still, this does not mean that we are automatically saved. If that were the case, why did Christ give us commandments to keep? Why are we told that we are to be judged and rewarded according to our works? How could we be rewarded according to our works if there are no distinction in rewards? And even if I am in error believing in multiple levels of heaven, are you saying such a belief will keep me out of heaven?

Bottom line...do you believe there is one heaven, one plan of Salvation (found only in the Bible)...and that Jesus FININSHED this work of Salvation for us

I actually do believe this. There is only one heaven, but there are different levels of heaven, depending on your righteousness. I also believe in one salvation, found only in the Bible, but echoed also in the Book of Mormon, which serves as an additional testament. And yes, I believe Jesus finished the work of salvation on the cross, but that does not mean God no longer works among men, nor do I believe that means we are alleviated of any responsibility to live a righteous life.

[LaSpino3]

Sorry, bad sense of direction. Someone should have left me a trail of bread-crumbs.

OK, you explained your objectives for now, in this life.

You wrote, "I believe the Bible to be the word of God."

On this we agree. Question, "Do you believe it to be the only word, the final word of God to us? Could you find the way to your personal salvation in the Bible alone?" 

In my previous post, what I meant is, what is your hope after you leave this life?

Let me expand on the question. What have you garnished, what Biblical understanding do you have concerning your eternity? Heaven, hell, judgments, rewards, etc.

My hope is the resurrection of the body made perfect, united as a whole man, body, soul, and spirit; to be with the Lord for eternity, in a place He has prepared for all those who love Him.

Only through Him can I achieve this, there is no other way, no church, no individual, and surely not by my own works, only through Him, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit can any man finish the race of life, and receive the reward of eternal salvation. 

Our love for Him now, today and our faith in Him drive me to spread His gospel of truth, it being a light unto all men, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, we can all grow daily in faith, love, and spirit.

Did not mean it to sound like a sermon. Before I push the post button, I looked at a few of your comments to others who are questioning your faith in Morminism. I hope your not going to paint yourself into a box because of something you said to others. I would prefer an open mind concernig the Scriptures, and the who's, why's, where's and when's came be filled in later.

Phil LaSpino

[Thankfulldad]

Listen, the work of salvation was completed on the cross...period!  Any work that God does through believers is that of sanctification, love...spreading the good news of the competed work of salvation through Jesus Christ (God) on the cross.  That work continues...but, there is NO further work in and of ourself for us being saved...or rewards of a HIGER HEAVEN, or several heavens depending on us. The salvation work is done, complete, perfectly done through Jesus (God with us)...

Oh, I most certainly agree that the work of salvation was finished on the cross. I never said otherwise. My point was that it is not out of line when the Book of Mormon claims that there is more work to be done from now until the end of the earth. The passage I quoted never stated that there is more to salvation than what Christ did on the cross, only that God's work is not finished. You yourself have even admitted that God has more work to do in terms of sanctification. That is most likely what the Book of Mormon is saying. So we are actually in agreement here.

Still, this does not mean that we are automatically saved. If that were the case, why did Christ give us commandments to keep? Why are we told that we are to be judged and rewarded according to our works? How could we be rewarded according to our works if there are no distinction in rewards? And even if I am in error believing in multiple levels of heaven, are you saying such a belief will keep me out of heaven?

Bottom line...do you believe there is one heaven, one plan of Salvation (found only in the Bible)...and that Jesus FININSHED this work of Salvation for us

I actually do believe this. There is only one heaven, but there are different levels of heaven, depending on your righteousness. I also believe in one salvation, found only in the Bible, but echoed also in the Book of Mormon, which serves as an additional testament. And yes, I believe Jesus finished the work of salvation on the cross, but that does not mean God no longer works among men, nor do I believe that means we are alleviated of any responsibility to live a righteous life.

You are not the typical morman; most deny all of what I stated...and believe that they must work their way to heaven...