Eschatology

[LightHammer]

Back to Daniel 7 to get us onto a right foundation.

"And all dominions shall serve and obey him"

When the Lord ascended into heaven, he was given power over the nations (see verse 14; cp. Matt. 28:18; 1 Pet. 3:22); though, as yet, they do not "serve and obey him".

One must understand the work of Jesus Christ in bringing the nations under his subjection.  The time is coming when they will do so, for "the peoples shall be gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve Yahweh" (Ps.102:22).

So from your understanding which in part is correct that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father and all power and authority has been given however if you believe all the dominions in the earth today serve and obey Christ...

I do not disagree at least not entirely. I simply believe you are misunderstanding a few things here.

You are making the coming of the kingdom of God or Christ's reign synonymous with two things; 1) That Christ reigns on the Earth and not over the Earth. 2) The immediate destruction or subjugation of all the kingdoms of the earth.

I believe both points are false. The establishment of Christ kingdom has already happened.

Matthew 28:18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Christ now reigns holding the key of St. David and the key of death. (Revelation 3:7, Revelation 1:18) However this is where I believe you fall off on point 2. The kingdom of God has come already. It is established but it is at war. The kingdom of God(Church)/Christ Himself are the proverbial stones shaterring the rule of the nations.

Daniel 2:44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Notice how St. Daniel records the kingdom of God shattering the the statue of the kingdoms. This kingdom has already been set up, in the Church.

Matthew 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Try to stay with me here because this is important to me. Notice the imagery Christ is using. He refers to His Church, resting on a stone empowered as the kingdom of Heaven, being of the offensive against the gates of hell. Doesn't that seem a bit familiar to you. Notice St. Daniel 2:44. The kingdom attacks the image of the reign of man.

St. Daniel saw the end of the old kingdoms of man as the coming of the Church of Jesus Christ.  

Romans 5:14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Now victory rests with Christ because now He reigns. However we know by St. Daniel's account that the coming of the new era and the Church did not bring about the immediate subjugation of everything.

Daniel 7:12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Their dominion was taken away, because Christ now has all dominion in Heaven and earth but they still remain. You are equating their absolute destruction with the arrival of the kingdom. Not just yet. That's not the same time period. That's the entire reason God gave St. John the Revelator the Revelation chapter 21.

St. Daniel was seeing the establishment of the Church which is several times refer to as kingdom. That Church which beat against the gates of Hell and destroy them. The gates of Hell(death) that empowered the rule of the nations. That powered that reigned freely upon the earth until it was challenged by Moses and conquered by Christ. That power we wrestle with even to this day.

Ephesians 6:12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

St. Daniel was made aware that eventually the kingdom would but he himself did not see that in his vision. You know this to be true because he does not record the destruction of the other three beasts. Secondly, St. John records the destruction of the last enemy and that was death and the dragon which St. Daniel doesn't even mention.  Furthermore St. John actually sees not only the subjugation of all of the nations but the coming of the New Heaven and the New Earth.

If both St. Daniel and St. John were seeing the same end to the same time period their records would be identical. They are not therefore they did not see the end of the same era.

[LightHammer]

From your own quoted verse:

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (DELIVER UP!!!!!)

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

"Then cometh the end"

End of what?

Answer: 1000 year reign on earth

What shall happen at the end of this reign on earth?

Answer: "he (Jesus) shall have delivered "up" the kingdom to God

What determines the duration?

Answer: "For he must reign (past tense speaking of the 1000 years), till he hath put all enemies under his feet

Rather simple reading LH.

Insight

No the 1000 year reign is not the beginning of Christ's reign. The 1000 years occurs some where within Christ's reign. It is only unique because Satan is bound up for a 1000, after which he is loosed and goes on his last rampage.

Just take a second and actually think it through.

Matthew 22:44The Lord said to my lord, Sit at my right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?

But Christ seated at the Right Hand is not the beginning of the 1000 year reign because we know that Christ has been seated at the Right Hand for just a little over 2000 years.

Colossians 3:1
If, then, ye were raised with the Christ, the things above seek ye, where the Christ is, on the right hand of God seated,

Hebrews 1:3
who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might -- through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,

1 Peter 3:22
who is at the right hand of God, having gone on to heaven -- messengers, and authorities, and powers, having been subjected to him.

Oh snap check out St. Peter in that last quote. Kind of powerful don't you think? 

[Insight]

LH,

Your BC theory was an unusual detour but I sense we can move past it as being unscriptual.

Now getting back to the little horn of the fourth beast.

You believe this is speaking to one man who lived a short life on this planet.  Unlike any other client king he is not noted for speaking great things and having eyes that see throughout the earth.

"And a mouth speaking great things"

These "'great things" are blasphemies against Yahweh (see verse 25 and also Rev. 13:5-8).

Now are you able explain Rev 13:5-8 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies?

The interpratation speaks to the same meaning; where Daniel gave the shadow we get the detail in Rev 13.

Insight

Not at all.

I have yet to show you the extent of my theory which you are surprisingly forced to ignore large portions of Sacred Scripture to evade away from.

Actually many reading these posts would see I am holding you to the Scriptures on critical points such as:

1. The little horn came up among all 10 horns before it displacing the three.
2. Daniel's prophecies incorporate the 1000 year reign of Christ before offering up a perfected earth full of righteousness.
3. Christ will return to establish a Kingdom whereby its capital will be Jerusalem

This approach has frustrated your theology causing you to defend your erroneous beliefs with random unrelated Scriptures.

Insight

[Insight]

I do not disagree at least not entirely. I simply believe you are misunderstanding a few things here.

You are making the coming of the kingdom of God or Christ's reign synonymous with two things; 1) That Christ reigns on the Earth and not over the Earth. 2) The immediate destruction or subjugation of all the kingdoms of the earth.

What you fail to understand is Bible language and you make so many assumptions rather than establishing collective truths.

And when the year was expired, king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him to Babylon, with the goodly vessels of the house of the LORD, and made Zedekiah his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem. (2 Chronicles 36:10)

Now while he was not yet gone back, he said, Go back also to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, whom the king of Babylon hath made governor over the cities of Judah, and dwell with him among the people: or go wheresoever it seemeth convenient unto thee to go. So the captain of the guard gave him victuals and a reward, and let him go. (Jeremiah 40:5)

Then arose Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, and the ten men that were with him, and smote Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan with the sword, and slew him, whom the king of Babylon had made governor over the land. (Jeremiah 41:2)

Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon. (Daniel 2:48)

Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king. (Daniel 2:49)

And so many more Scriptural examples showing that "over

[Insight]

Ephesians 6:12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

St. Daniel was made aware that eventually the kingdom would but he himself did not see that in his vision. You know this to be true because he does not record the destruction of the other three beasts. Secondly, St. John records the destruction of the last enemy and that was death and the dragon which St. Daniel doesn't even mention.  Furthermore St. John actually sees not only the subjugation of all of the nations but the coming of the New Heaven and the New Earth.

If both St. Daniel and St. John were seeing the same end to the same time period their records would be identical. They are not therefore they did not see the end of the same era.

Coming soon 

[LightHammer]

LH,

Your BC theory was an unusual detour but I sense we can move past it as being unscriptual.

Now getting back to the little horn of the fourth beast.

You believe this is speaking to one man who lived a short life on this planet.  Unlike any other client king he is not noted for speaking great things and having eyes that see throughout the earth.

"And a mouth speaking great things"

These "'great things" are blasphemies against Yahweh (see verse 25 and also Rev. 13:5-8).

Now are you able explain Rev 13:5-8 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies?

The interpratation speaks to the same meaning; where Daniel gave the shadow we get the detail in Rev 13.

Insight

Not at all.

I have yet to show you the extent of my theory which you are surprisingly forced to ignore large portions of Sacred Scripture to evade away from.

Actually many reading these posts would see I am holding you to the Scriptures on critical points such as:

1. The little horn came up among all 10 horns before it displacing the three.
2. Daniel's prophecies incorporate the 1000 year reign of Christ before offering up a perfected earth full of righteousness.
3. Christ will return to establish a Kingdom whereby its capital will be Jerusalem

This approach has frustrated your theology causing you to defend your erroneous beliefs with random unrelated Scriptures.

Insight

1. I haven't given your little horn theory the time of day in all honesty. 11 horns or 8 horns, the Bible affirms that St. Daniel's 4th beast and the beast of the sea in Revelation are different. One dies with 11/8 horns the other with 10. St. Daniel's has three peers who live on after his demise and St. John's is hurled forevermore into the abyss with his only partner the false prophet beast of the land.

When it comes to the text you aren't really doing that well at all.

2. St. Daniel's prophecy hails the establishment of the Church. Go back and reread the quotes of the text.

3. No the Parousia will bring about a totally New Heaven and a New Earth with a New Jerusalem. This is completely different from the end St. Daniel saw.

In your mind you may have a sound stance but what you have presented is rather sloppy and poorly conformed to the Bible. Sorry if this is the first time someone bothered to point it out to you.

[LightHammer]

What you fail to understand is Bible language and you make so many assumptions rather than establishing collective truths.

And when the year was expired, king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him to Babylon, with the goodly vessels of the house of the LORD, and made Zedekiah his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem. (2 Chronicles 36:10)

Now while he was not yet gone back, he said, Go back also to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, whom the king of Babylon hath made governor over the cities of Judah, and dwell with him among the people: or go wheresoever it seemeth convenient unto thee to go. So the captain of the guard gave him victuals and a reward, and let him go. (Jeremiah 40:5)

Then arose Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, and the ten men that were with him, and smote Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan with the sword, and slew him, whom the king of Babylon had made governor over the land. (Jeremiah 41:2)

Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon. (Daniel 2:48)

Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king. (Daniel 2:49)

And so many more Scriptural examples showing that "over

[LightHammer]

Upon Christs return we are told the following will take place:

Christ..."Which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and day, and break them to pieces"

Wrong Daniel 2:34 is talking about Christ's first coming not His second coming. Its refers to Christ and the established offensive of the Church.

Matthew 21:43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Taken from the Jews and given to the a new people. Christ talking about the end of the Old Covenant and the establishment of the New Covenant. Its talking about the Church.

Further proof.

Luke 1:32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

St. Jacob in Genesis 1 foreshadows the beginning of thsi reign in the establishment of the Church.

Genesis 1:44Now therefore come thou, let us make a covenant, I and thou; and let it be for a witness between me and thee.

45And Jacob took a stone, and set it up for a pillar.

46And Jacob said unto his brethren, Gather stones; and they took stones, and made an heap: and they did eat there upon the heap.

47And Laban called it Jegarsahadutha: but Jacob called it Galeed.

Now watch Christ make the mystery bloom like the lotus.

The Ruler of the House of Jacob forges a New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel(Jacob) and with the house of Judah:

That correlates with St. Jacob in Genesis 1:44.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

That correlates with St. Jacob in Genesis 1:45 using a stone to establish a pillar. Keep focus. This pillar is added to by other gathered stones.

1 Peter 2:4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Genesis 1:46 where the covenant of the House of Jacob is personified.

And for the crescendo. What do both St. Jacob and St. Laban call this heap of stones mounted upon this cornerstone (note Acts 4:11)?

From Thayer's Lexicon.

Jegar-sahadutha = "witness heap"

Galeed = "witness heap"

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H1567

Acts 2:32
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 3:15
And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 10:39
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Romans 9:1
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

1 Thessalonians 2:10
Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

St. Daniel did not see the end of the 1000 year reign. He saw the first coming of Jesus Christ and the establishment of the Church. This Church of living stones, of a new covenant with the House of Jacob, that attacks and destroys the principalities of this world.

Bloom forth Holy Mystery.

St. Daniel 2:44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Matthew 16:18....and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I think I have made my point.

[LightHammer]

Compare with the prophetic statements of 2 Sam 22:43; Psa. 18:42 relating to the future work of Messiah (please look up, read and mediate)

All refering to the first coming.

Have you ever notice the Lord's citation of this passage in illustration of his own future work (Matt. 21:43-44)?  The use of the word together is significant. It teaches that in "the latter days" (See v. 28) the Image must stand upon its feet.

Yes that future work is the Resurrection.

The proceeding phase will take an undisclosed period of time that some believe could correspond to 40 or 50 years, however I will not be dogmatic on such a time frame. What we do know is the following "grinding

[LightHammer]

Ephesians 6:12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

St. Daniel was made aware that eventually the kingdom would but he himself did not see that in his vision. You know this to be true because he does not record the destruction of the other three beasts. Secondly, St. John records the destruction of the last enemy and that was death and the dragon which St. Daniel doesn't even mention.  Furthermore St. John actually sees not only the subjugation of all of the nations but the coming of the New Heaven and the New Earth.

If both St. Daniel and St. John were seeing the same end to the same time period their records would be identical. They are not therefore they did not see the end of the same era.

Coming soon 

A separate thread is not necessary at all but if you insist.

[Insight]

What you fail to understand is Bible language and you make so many assumptions rather than establishing collective truths.

And when the year was expired, king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him to Babylon, with the goodly vessels of the house of the LORD, and made Zedekiah his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem. (2 Chronicles 36:10)

Now while he was not yet gone back, he said, Go back also to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, whom the king of Babylon hath made governor over the cities of Judah, and dwell with him among the people: or go wheresoever it seemeth convenient unto thee to go. So the captain of the guard gave him victuals and a reward, and let him go. (Jeremiah 40:5)

Then arose Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, and the ten men that were with him, and smote Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan with the sword, and slew him, whom the king of Babylon had made governor over the land. (Jeremiah 41:2)

Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon. (Daniel 2:48)

Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king. (Daniel 2:49)

And so many more Scriptural examples showing that "over

[Insight]

Compare with the prophetic statements of 2 Sam 22:43; Psa. 18:42 relating to the future work of Messiah (please look up, read and mediate)

All refering to the first coming.

Have you ever notice the Lord's citation of this passage in illustration of his own future work (Matt. 21:43-44)?  The use of the word together is significant. It teaches that in "the latter days" (See v. 28) the Image must stand upon its feet.

Yes that future work is the Resurrection.

The proceeding phase will take an undisclosed period of time that some believe could correspond to 40 or 50 years, however I will not be dogmatic on such a time frame. What we do know is the following "grinding

[Insight]

Micah 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

You dont read very well do you.

Who is being redeemed in Micah...be precise.

Insight

[LightHammer]

Matt 28:18 I agree with no exception and actually go further to say his inherited power is the same Power that of his Father ,who likewise from the beginning of the kingdoms of men held such power, though not all peoples of the earth served an obeyed Him.

St. Daniel didn't see all peoples serving Him. He saw all dominions serving Him. The word in St. Daniel 7:27 used was sholtan.

From Thayer's Lexicon

sholtan (Aramaic)
masculine noun

1) dominion, sovereignty

a) dominion, sovereignty

b) realm

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7985&t=KJV

St. Daniel is not referring to a transferral of the hearts of people, its referring to a transferral of the powers of the world. A transferral that has already happened.

1 Peter 3:21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

What do you say? he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

The power of the key of death.

Matthew 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Can you explain who represents Yahweh in the following verse?

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. (Joel 3:16)

Seriously? That doesn't like that one doesn't automatically jump out at you?

The Lord on the cross in Jerusalem.

Matthew 27:50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 28:2
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

Come on are you seriously trying to act like you don't know this is the first coming? Joel chapter 3 makes it so clear that I'm starting to think you're trying to be funny.

Joel 3:18And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

Matthew 9:17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

This illustration is one of only a handful that is recorded in all four Gospel accounts and you just brush right passed it.

Who is being represented here in Yahweh?

So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. (Joel 3:17)

Dwelling in Zion AND my Holy Mountain...?

Please show the future fulfilment of these verses making sure to address the Yahweh being in Zion,

*sigh*

Yes this has already happened too and is collectively still happening now.

Hebrews 12:22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

You should pay close attention to the "heavenly Jerusalem" part.

Precisely...but not in the Church for she is defiled and drunk on the wine of her many dogmas. This thread has certainly highlighted a number thus far.

I knew you were building your eschatology on that premise. No wonder you have been knocked off your proverbial horse in this thread. You lasted much longer in the Trinity debate although not that long there either.

You can't build on a faulty premise. Thats how you end up with an eschatology as broken as your own.

I will wait for you to answer Rev 3:7 before going any further.

Its called delegation of powers.

Christ holds the keys but delegates that authority on earth to His Church. Much like oh I don't know St. David was king of the Jews but God was/is the ultimate leader of Israel.

Its not a difficult concept.

Well, firstly the stone is Christ and not Peter who was a sinner; though a wonderful Apostle not one to whom the Church was established. Actually I am surprised you do not reserve this honour for Paul who took the Gospel to the Gentiles...I can sense strongly the defence of Church teaching rather then adhering to the Word.

Actually no. The stone is the faith and reality of Christ the King that St. Peter declared. That faith which was so ingrained in St. Peter that when the crowds had saw Christ as another prophet he had already committed the greater reality to his confidence, which his brother St. Andrew had mentioned to him earlier on.

Before you accuse me of defending my Church's teachings you should at least know what they are but then again maybe that is too much to expect.

This is strong delusion!

You added an exclamation point so by all means it must be so!

Explain to me precisely who are the "the people of the saints"

Who are these "people

[LightHammer]

What you fail to understand is Bible language and you make so many assumptions rather than establishing collective truths.

And when the year was expired, king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him to Babylon, with the goodly vessels of the house of the LORD, and made Zedekiah his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem. (2 Chronicles 36:10)

Now while he was not yet gone back, he said, Go back also to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, whom the king of Babylon hath made governor over the cities of Judah, and dwell with him among the people: or go wheresoever it seemeth convenient unto thee to go. So the captain of the guard gave him victuals and a reward, and let him go. (Jeremiah 40:5)

Then arose Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, and the ten men that were with him, and smote Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan with the sword, and slew him, whom the king of Babylon had made governor over the land. (Jeremiah 41:2)

Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon. (Daniel 2:48)

Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king. (Daniel 2:49)

And so many more Scriptural examples showing that "over

[LightHammer]

All can be refuted by one simple little passage...

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall (future work) judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom


This is referring to the Second Resurrection. Now you're on post-Resurrection. This does nothing to refute my works but if it helps you evade the overwhleming Sacred Scriptures than I understand why you're lying to yourself.

This verse does not say that "at his appearing of his kingdom" it says "and his kingdom"

A kingdom that is recorded in the very same chapter as already established.

2 Timothy 4:18And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

You see LH your RCC doctrines limit the Word to present a whole complete view of the future - you have discounted all of Daniel to be BC; knowing this your understanding of the Revelation is lost.

Insight

The Catholic Church has no official eschatological positions. This is all me.

By the way LH - when this was written Jesus was at the right hand of the Father   

Hence St. Paul refering to the heavenly kingdom six verses later. Honestly are you even reading the Bible or are you just coping your verses from the internet like you're doing with your pictures?

[Insight]

What you fail to understand is Bible language and you make so many assumptions rather than establishing collective truths.

And when the year was expired, king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him to Babylon, with the goodly vessels of the house of the LORD, and made Zedekiah his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem. (2 Chronicles 36:10)

Now while he was not yet gone back, he said, Go back also to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, whom the king of Babylon hath made governor over the cities of Judah, and dwell with him among the people: or go wheresoever it seemeth convenient unto thee to go. So the captain of the guard gave him victuals and a reward, and let him go. (Jeremiah 40:5)

Then arose Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, and the ten men that were with him, and smote Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan with the sword, and slew him, whom the king of Babylon had made governor over the land. (Jeremiah 41:2)

Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon. (Daniel 2:48)

Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king. (Daniel 2:49)

And so many more Scriptural examples showing that "over

[LightHammer]

Micah 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

You dont read very well do you.

Who is being redeemed in Micah...be precise.

Insight

The people who were redeemed in Galatians. Go back and reread.

For some added reading.

Hosea 13:14
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

1 Timothy2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

So unimpressive. Really.

[LightHammer]

What you fail to understand is Bible language and you make so many assumptions rather than establishing collective truths.

And when the year was expired, king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him to Babylon, with the goodly vessels of the house of the LORD, and made Zedekiah his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem. (2 Chronicles 36:10)

Now while he was not yet gone back, he said, Go back also to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, whom the king of Babylon hath made governor over the cities of Judah, and dwell with him among the people: or go wheresoever it seemeth convenient unto thee to go. So the captain of the guard gave him victuals and a reward, and let him go. (Jeremiah 40:5)

Then arose Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, and the ten men that were with him, and smote Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan with the sword, and slew him, whom the king of Babylon had made governor over the land. (Jeremiah 41:2)

Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon. (Daniel 2:48)

Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king. (Daniel 2:49)

And so many more Scriptural examples showing that "over

[Insight]

LH Wrote:

St. Daniel was made aware that eventually the kingdom would but he himself did not see that in his vision. You know this to be true because he does not record the destruction of the other three beasts.

Secondly, St. John records the destruction of the last enemy and that was death and the dragon which St. Daniel doesn't even mention.  Furthermore St. John actually sees not only the subjugation of all of the nations but the coming of the New Heaven and the New Earth.

If both St. Daniel and St. John were seeing the same end to the same time period their records would be identical. They are not therefore they did not see the end of the same era.

After reading this a second time I see again your lack of appreciation toward Daniels prophetical content.  I recall writing previously that Daniel is the shadow of events leading up to the end of all ages when Jesus Christ kingdom (1000 years) will become an everlasting Kingdom.

His (Christ's) dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed"

Clearly referring to an earthly kingdom for how can a heavenly Kingdom be destroyed? This earthly divine Kingdom is compared to the Kingdoms of men on Earth however a distinct difference with this earthly Kingdom...

Maybe you could explain to us the difference?

I realise I keep providing evidence which you will twist and manipulate to suit your addenda but I will persist to show how this earthly Kingdom which is yet to be established, which is compared to the Kingdom's before it will not be destroyed because of the presence of its King of Righteousness ruling over it.

13Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

Notice how the Kingdom has existed throughout generations however it yet has a King over/in the throne of David.

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Where do you place the sounding of the seventh angel?

The reality here is Christs shall rule over a Kingdom age which will "last forever" and have "no
end" (Luke 1:33), it will be subject to change of constitution.

For a Millennium the saints shall rule over the mortal populations of the earth; but at the end of that epoch, when every enemy has been destroyed, including sin and death, the perfected Kingdom will be delivered up to the Father with "the Son also himself subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:28).

This age is spoken of with Daniel as proven, however you are right in terms of the finer details of the period not given. For greater detail of this age we would need to consider development of the Roman Empire - East and West  and its ecclesiastical development throughout the world.

I appreciate it must be difficult to hear the Church you belong to is prophesied to be utterly destroyed including all those who remain intoxicated on her wine.

These posts have been tainted with such a smell coming from an adulterous woman who is soon to ride a beast and give her power over to it.

Insight

[LightHammer]

After reading this a second time I see again your lack of appreciation toward Daniels prophetical content.  I recall writing previously that Daniel is the shadow of events leading up to the end of all ages when Jesus Christ kingdom (1000 years) will become an everlasting Kingdom.

His (Christ's) dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed"

Clearly referring to an earthly kingdom for how can a heavenly Kingdom be destroyed? This earthly divine Kingdom is compared to the Kingdoms of men on Earth however a distinct difference with this earthly Kingdom...

Maybe you could explain to us the difference?

I am positive you are unable to take in the counsel of Sacred Scripture. I have already demonstrated to you that the word "dominion" does not imply an absolute submission of the population but an absolute possession of sovereignty and power.

I have quoted expert testimony to this with the citation of Thayer's Lexicon but you seem to want to hold to whatever you want regardless of how it contradicts the written word.

The earthly entity that St. Daniel saw was Christ's Church.

Proven here.

Daniel 7:14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Matthew 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Matthew 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I realise I keep providing evidence which you will twist and manipulate to suit your addenda but I will persist to show how this earthly Kingdom which is yet to be established, which is compared to the Kingdom's before it will not be destroyed because of the presence of its King of Righteousness ruling over it.

13Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

I like to let the Bible do my talking for me. Proof of the everlasting kindgom foreshadowing the coming of the New Covenant, the Church.

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Not conclusive enough?

Ok.

Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Luke 1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Matthew 22:44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Revelation 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;

Revelation 11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Where do you place the sounding of the seventh angel?

Two thousand years in the past.

Fulfilled here.

Matthew 28:18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

You're reading Revelation as if was written today with each aspect being something that occurs in the future. You are wrong to do so for two main reasons.

1. Revelation was written 2000 years ago. Stuff has already been going happened.

2. According to Thayer's Lexicon, the primary defintion for the Greek apokalypsis is "laying bare or making naked". There is meaning in that definition. Revelation is not completely prophecy. Its is unveiling of time. St. John is seeing things unravel from the perspective of Heaven which is outside of the ideal construct we call time. Meaning he's seeing everything. From time of the two olive trees onward to the desolation of apostate Israel, the establishment of the Church, to its offensive with the principailities of the world, to her ultimate victory ending with death, and finally to the apex of revelation; the coming of New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem.

You have an arbitrary and honestly flawed view of the Holy Scriptures.

For a Millennium the saints shall rule over the mortal populations of the earth; but at the end of that epoch, when every enemy has been destroyed, including sin and death, the perfected Kingdom will be delivered up to the Father with "the Son also himself subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:28).

Point?

For greater detail of this age we would need to consider development of the Roman Empire - East and West  and its ecclesiastical development throughout the world.

Not at all. St. Daniel has been unequivocally proven as pre-Resurrection prophecy. If you can not see that its simply because you do not want to.

I appreciate it must be difficult to hear the Church you belong to is prophesied to be utterly destroyed including all those who remain intoxicated on her wine.

Its not difficult to hear. I'm black I've heard far worse. It makes it especially easier to take in knowing who the originators of this false doctrine are, i.e. the Reformers. A bunch of anti-semitic hate breeders who successfully discarded several books from the Bible. Funny thing they even tried to get Revelation thrown out as well as other books of the New Testament they didn't like.

Adding Arians, who deny Christ as God by ignoring St. John 1:1, to this eschatological school of thought only helps make it even more easy to hear.

Alone, and in ths thread, you are unimpressive but your team mates are even worse. Sabbatarians who don't know history from proganda while beautifully ignoring Hosea. Modernists who support predestination and universalism. People who obviously flunked English class because they think Christmas, Halloween and Easter are pagan holidays. The etymology in the words should easily give them all they need to let that misunderstanding go.

In all honesty none of you are impressive. I have been hoping for some non Catholics with Wycliffe, DCR or HRobernson knowledge to share differentianting views with but I always get stuck with people who rather ignore parts of the Bible they don't like and who have the insightinferior to my thirteen year old brother.

Its all good I guess its just fate.

These posts have been tainted with such a smell coming from an adulterous woman who is soon to ride a beast and give her power over to it.

Insight

I imagine thats what Truth smells like to Satan.

[Insight]

After reading this a second time I see again your lack of appreciation toward Daniels prophetical content.  I recall writing previously that Daniel is the shadow of events leading up to the end of all ages when Jesus Christ kingdom (1000 years) will become an everlasting Kingdom.

His (Christ's) dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed"

Clearly referring to an earthly kingdom for how can a heavenly Kingdom be destroyed? This earthly divine Kingdom is compared to the Kingdoms of men on Earth however a distinct difference with this earthly Kingdom...

Maybe you could explain to us the difference?

I am positive you are unable to take in the counsel of Sacred Scripture. I have already demonstrated to you that the word "dominion" does not imply an absolute submission of the population but an absolute possession of sovereignty and power.

I have quoted expert testimony to this with the citation of Thayer's Lexicon but you seem to want to hold to whatever you want regardless of how it contradicts the written word.

The earthly entity that St. Daniel saw was Christ's Church.

Proven here.

Daniel 7:14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Matthew 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Matthew 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I realise I keep providing evidence which you will twist and manipulate to suit your addenda but I will persist to show how this earthly Kingdom which is yet to be established, which is compared to the Kingdom's before it will not be destroyed because of the presence of its King of Righteousness ruling over it.

13Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

I like to let the Bible do my talking for me. Proof of the everlasting kindgom foreshadowing the coming of the New Covenant, the Church.

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Not conclusive enough?

Ok.

Your scattering machine gun approach to the Scriptures is laborious.

Answer why the earthly Kingdoms "become" a divine earthly Kingdom which is compared to earthly Kingdoms.  Who knows what is your mind in quoting Heb 13:20 only in that those who take part in that covenant (Christ included) will possess this coming Kingdom.

Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

When will this be made?

When will Judah appoint their King?

Luke 1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

he shall!

1.Earthly reign
2.Natural Jewry
3.Physical Kingdom on Earth

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Furture tense while Jesus was in Heaven yet to put all his enemies under his feet.

Matthew 22:44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

The earth is not yet His footstool!!!!

Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

I agree totally but this does not mean that Christ cannot leave his side reign on earth and not still be at the side of the Father....who does the throne of David belong too?

You cannot speak to Daniels prophesy and your approach to avoid it is well noted.

Insight

[LightHammer]

Answer why the earthly Kingdoms "become" a divine earthly Kingdom which is compared to earthly Kingdoms.  Who knows what is your mind in quoting Heb 13:20 only in that those who take part in that covenant (Christ included) will possess this coming Kingdom.

Nope not "will posess" already posess. The earthly kingdoms became the kingdoms of Christ when He rose saying all power in heaven and earth were His.

I know I know. You're right and Christ is wrong. He doesn't have all power and authority yet. He has to descend from the glory of Right Hand and sit on an earthly throne.

It's ok Insight we know.

When will this be made?

When will Judah appoint their King?

What?lol What do you mean when? What hole did you crawl out of?

1 Corinthians 11:25
In like manner also the cup after the supping, saying, `This cup is the new covenant in my blood; this do ye, as often as ye may drink [it] -- to the remembrance of me;'

2 Corinthians 5:17
so that if any one [is] in Christ -- [he is] a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.

Galatians 6:15
for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation;

When?lol How about 2000 years ago.

he shall!

1.Earthly reign
2.Natural Jewry
3.Physical Kingdom on Earth

Not "he shall" He does!

1. Matthew 28:18
2. Matthew 16:18-19
3. Romans 8:34,


Revelation 1:5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,


Let it go Insight. You know what it is.

Furture tense while Jesus was in Heaven yet to put all his enemies under his feet.

That's the key my Brother. Use it and be liberated.

Christ stays at the Right Hand until ALL of His enemies are conquered. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Who is the LAST enemy to fall. You know it. Say it out loud. DEATH.

What does Revelation teach us as following the demise of death. Take it to the Scriptures.  

Revelation 20:14and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;

15and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

Death is conquered and then.....

Revelation 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more;

2and I, John, saw the holy city -- new Jerusalem -- coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband;

Do you not see? Come on Insight I make jokes in all because you're not sensitive and I know you can take them. All jokes aside do you not see?

Christ is seated at the Right Hand until His enemies are conquered His last enemy to be conquered is death after which victory New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem descend.

It's verbatim from Sacred Scripture. No earthly millennium reign with Christ on earth.

Peace.

[Insight]

Answer why the earthly Kingdoms "become" a divine earthly Kingdom which is compared to earthly Kingdoms.  Who knows what is your mind in quoting Heb 13:20 only in that those who take part in that covenant (Christ included) will possess this coming Kingdom.

Nope not "will posess" already posess. The earthly kingdoms became the kingdoms of Christ when He rose saying all power in heaven and earth were His.

I know I know. You're right and Christ is wrong. He doesn't have all power and authority yet. He has to descend from the glory of Right Hand and sit on an earthly throne.

It's ok Insight we know.

Now you move your rhetoric to the extreme and force both error and now gainsaying to your reasoning.

Show me where I stated Christ power and authority is limited in any way?  Throughout the Kingdoms of men was God power inhibited in any way because He chose to exercise restraint in allowing man to think his rule is supreme?

You speak as a fool in this matter.

When will this be made?

When will Judah appoint their King?

What?lol What do you mean when? What hole did you crawl out of?

1 Corinthians 11:25
In like manner also the cup after the supping, saying, `This cup is the new covenant in my blood; this do ye, as often as ye may drink [it] -- to the remembrance of me;'

2 Corinthians 5:17
so that if any one [is] in Christ -- [he is] a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.

Galatians 6:15
for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation;

When?lol How about 2000 years ago.

Why is it you cannot speak to the Scriptures at hand? Why run off to another passage with another context but fail to understand the Jew both natural and spiritual must have a physical King over them?

Even in the first chapter of the Gospel we see in his promise coming his position description and yet you fail in every way to understand its fulfilment.

"And He will be King over the House of Jacob for the Ages, and of His Kingdom there will be no end."

This Kingship is not a heavenly ethereal relationship but one of physical presence.

Again, I suggest you study and define what "a Kingdom" looks like through the eye of God and Jesus Christ

Maybe you should see the Masters teachings on "The Kingdom of Heaven shall be likened...."

NOTHING MENTIONED ABOUT HEAVEN GOING!!!!

he shall!

1.Earthly reign
2.Natural Jewry
3.Physical Kingdom on Earth

Not "he shall" He does!

1. Matthew 28:18
2. Matthew 16:18-19
3. Romans 8:34,


Revelation 1:5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,

You say Jesus today is King over all the earth and all heads of state, priminsters etc obey and serve him?

Let it go LH and return to the Word of God and what is real!

Furture tense while Jesus was in Heaven yet to put all his enemies under his feet.

That's the key my Brother. Use it and be liberated.

Christ stays at the Right Hand until ALL of His enemies are conquered. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Who is the LAST enemy to fall. You know it. Say it out loud. DEATH.

And have made us unto our God a kingdom and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Where about shall the true saints reign? 

What does Revelation teach us as following the demise of death. Take it to the Scriptures.  

Revelation 20:14and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;

15and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

Death is conquered and then.....

Revelation 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more;

2and I, John, saw the holy city -- new Jerusalem -- coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband;

Do you not see? Come on Insight I make jokes in all because you're not sensitive and I know you can take them. All jokes aside do you not see?

What do you see happening actually happening in Rev 21? Provide the timing and location.

Christ is seated at the Right Hand until His enemies are conquered His last enemy to be conquered is death after which victory New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem descend.

It's verbatim from Sacred Scripture. No earthly millennium reign with Christ on earth.

Find out what this meaneth..."that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 15:50). We are "heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him" (James 2:5)

Heirs and by promise but not here and now...but to come when he does come he will as was written "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). Whereby God has "called you unto his kingdom" (1 Thess. 2:12)

All future though you deny its truth.

Insight

[Insight]

Micah 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Everywhere you take me we find a future earthly Kingdom passage which here speaks to a re gathering of Israel in the Land with a King residing over them...

I guess thanks is in order.

MANY NATIONS WILL COME AND SAY, "COME, LET US GO UP TO THE MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD, TO THE HOUSE OF THE GOD OF JACOB. HE WILL TEACH US HIS WAYS, SO THAT WE MAY WALK IN HIS PATHS."

THE LAW WILL GO OUT FROM ZION, THE WORD OF THE LORD FROM JERUSALEM

Through whose mouth will the Law go forth?
Who is capable of teaching the nations how to walk in God's Ways.
Where is the mountain of the Lord?
And where is his house to be situated?

In terms of Micah 4:10 this is speaking to the prediction of Babylonian captivity.  This was latrer fulfilled.  Of course we have a latter day fulfillment:

(1) We have been speaking to the historic Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar's day of course you know the future captives (of Judah) would be going

(2) the future Babylon, which are the Gentile powers that we know has grasped hold of Israel ever since Nebuchadnezzar reigned. (Read Gen 10:10; 11:4-9 & Rev 17; 18).

The Lords coming will redeem his people from Gentile lands as promised to his forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Insight

[Insight]

Matt 28:18 I agree with no exception and actually go further to say his inherited power is the same Power that of his Father ,who likewise from the beginning of the kingdoms of men held such power, though not all peoples of the earth served an obeyed Him.

St. Daniel didn't see all peoples serving Him. He saw all dominions serving Him. The word in St. Daniel 7:27 used was sholtan.

From Thayer's Lexicon

sholtan (Aramaic)
masculine noun

1) dominion, sovereignty

a) dominion, sovereignty

b) realm

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7985&t=KJV

St. Daniel is not referring to a transferral of the hearts of people, its referring to a transferral of the powers of the world. A transferral that has already happened.

1 Peter 3:21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

I am surprised you would try to separate all the peoples of the earth will all the dominions of this earth.  The sovereignty of the world is held under the iron and clay in the legs of the image.

1. Iron toes as seen in the EU and its associates.
2. Clay requires no interpretation at all and fly's in the face of your understanding.

(Dan 2:43)  And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

This is a latter day prophesy currently unfulfilled but if you read Rev 16 you would see its corresponding fulfilment.

Consider this LH.

The power from Neb had been reduced through successive Kingdoms to the eventual dispersion of power to the peoples of the earth.

The democratic spirit certainly places us clearly in this feet time period.

Insight

[Insight]

LH - I perceive this back and forth jumping from one passage to another is not working very well for us.   

I am willing to consider a passage of your choosing to better refine our discussions.

Book, Chapter or verse.

Insight

p.s boundaries are needed to allow a sound outcome one way or the other. 

[LightHammer]

You are adamantly refusing to accept the clear affirmation of Sacred Scripture. I'm about to wash my hands of this conversation. It's circular and a waste of time.

Why is it you cannot speak to the Scriptures at hand? Why run off to another passage with another context but fail to understand the Jew both natural and spiritual must have a physical King over them?

It's called taking the Bible as a whole and not isolated out of context pieces. It's what separates the orthodoxy of my eschatology from the instability of your own.

That was the entire problem with the Jews. They were thinking carnally as you do. They were expecting the Messiah to come as Matthias or Judas Maccabbeus with the sword and mighty temporal power. That was not God's plan. Christ rode into Jerusalem on a donkey but they were looking for a mighty steed. Why are drinking the wine of old fornication?

Even in the first chapter of the Gospel we see in his promise coming his position description and yet you fail in every way to understand its fulfilment.

"And He will be King over the House of Jacob for the Ages, and of His Kingdom there will be no end."

This Kingship is not a heavenly ethereal relationship but one of physical presence.

Actually it's both. Christ first assumes all power and authority. He reigns from on high until all enemies are destroyed and then when death is destroyed He begins the physical reign. It's not the millennium chair on Earth. It's called New Heaven New Earth and New Jerusalem.

You have all the affirmation you need.

You say Jesus today is King over all the earth and all heads of state, priminsters etc obey and serve him?

Let it go LH and return to the Word of God and what is real!

Again the Bible is not speaking of total submission in obedience and servitude of the people. Its referring to totall submission of authority which Christ already has.

Again we know Insight. LightHammer is just reading things into the Bible. Christ is not really the ruler of Earth. It was just a formality an honorific of St. John not corresponding to any tangible reality.

We got it.

Where about shall the true saints reign? 

It's called New Jerusalem. She comes when the last enemy is defeated and Christ descends from the Right Hand.

[LightHammer]

What do you see happening actually happening in Rev 21? Provide the timing and location.

The only location that matters is that of Jesus Christ's. He's at the Right Hand until Death is defeated. Death is destroyed then New Heaven New Earth and New Jerusalem descend. Christ stays at the Right Hand until His enemies are conquered. That's the key.

Use it to unlock your cell and be liberated.

[Insight]

What do you see happening actually happening in Rev 21? Provide the timing and location.

The only location that matters is that of Jesus Christ's. He's at the Right Hand until Death is defeated. Death is destroyed then New Heaven New Earth and New Jerusalem descend. Christ stays at the Right Hand until His enemies are conquered. That's the key.

Use it to unlock your cell and be liberated.

From your comments thus far I see you place considerable weight on the New Heaven and New Earth understanding.

Allow me to test its substance...

Our current age is but one of three "heavens and earths" spoken of in the Scriptures.

Lets spend some time in Revelation 21.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.  (Rev 21:1)

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  (Rev 21:2)

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.  (Rev 21:3)

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.  (Rev 21:4)


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Here we see John describes a new vision which he sees, and records the words of the angel who explains details in relation to it.

Rev 21:1 And I (John) saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first (former) heaven and the first (former) earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The previous "heaven and earth" having perished away, they are replaced by a new heaven and a new earth, and are spoken of being the final abode of the Redeemed (Saints). In this chapter is new Jerusalem described as descending out of heaven, adorned as a bride for her groom. John is invited to a closer inspection of the vision, and describes the wall, foundations, gates, and glory of the holy city.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth"—This term connects with this vision of the previous chapter. John there declared that "the earth and the Heaven fled away" (Rev 20:11) to prepare for the new Heaven and Earth which will see the final destruction of sin and death, and as described New Jerusalem in its final glory.

Its essential that we see this new "heaven and earth" as political and symbolic, not literal.

This is not speaking of complete destruction of the current Heaven and Earth rather it relates to a new state of divine society on earth overruled by a righteous King from Jerusalem (Deut 32:1 Isa. 65:17 Dan 12:3),


"Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak, and let the earth hear the words of my mouth.

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.


The literal heaven and earth will remain forever (Ecc. 1:4 Ps. 125:1 148:6 Isa. 45:18).

Those who trust in the Lord are like Mount Zion, which cannot be moved, but abides forever.

And he established them forever and ever; he gave a decree, and it shall not pass away.  

For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the Lord, and there is no other.

LH - If you believe the earth shall literally melt away and a new Heaven will be created you have not entered the deep symbology of these passages.

"For the first heaven and the first earth were passed away"—How do they pass away as (Rev 20:11). This should make it very clear these are symbolic figures.

The Greek better renders "first" as "former" meaning the new Heaven and Earth must be at the conclusion of the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, for verse Rev 21:4 suggests sin and death are swallowed up. Verse 4 relates to the conditions on the Earth during the 1000 years and are referred to in verse one as the former Heaven and former earth now ready to pass away. This "new heaven and new earth" is the "third heaven" referred to by Paul in relation to his vision of future glory (2 Cor 12:2).

Defining the three heavens and earth:

1. The first heaven was Jewish Kingdom of God on Earth established under the law of Moses (covenant Deut 32:1 Isa 1:2) presided over by various Kings David being the Righteous King who seed would inherite his throne Luke 1:27 Luke 1:32. That symbolic Heaven and Earth came to an end in the destruction of the Jewish State in A.D. 70 (2 Pet 3:7). The law and the sacrifice removed and the people scattered for 2000 years, regathered and in 1948 Israel became a state.

2. The second "heaven and earth" will be established at Christ's coming with the setting up of the Kingdom of God, the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6 2 Pet 3:13).

3. The third "heaven and earth" will be at the close of Christ's reign on earth, when a perfected kingdom will be delivered unto the Father by Christ that He (God) might be all and in all (1 Cor. 15:24).

"And there was no more sea" In other words there will be no more sin and death stricken Nations left in the Earth (Rev. 17:15), God through Christ will make a "a full end" of all nations but Israel (Jer 30:11).

Many shall know that "Sea" in the Bible is highly symbolic of nations in their various conditions:

1. Nations can be in a troubled, stormy state, casting up mire and dirt (Isa. 57:20)

2. Nations can be at peace especially after the Battle of Armageddon (Rev 15:2)

3. The Nations can be calm and pure, with all their sins removed and represented as a "clear as crystal" (Rev 4:6)

4. And finally here in Rev 21. The nations are completely removed, only immortal Israel will remain, those as the Scriptures describe in Eph 2:12 who through Baptism become part of the Commonwealth of Israel (spiritual Israel) and so able to take part in the promises to Abraham Gal 3:28-29 and where sin and death is no more and those great passages of scripture are fulfilled once and for all Numbers 14:21 & Hab 2:14

[Insight]

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

"And I John saw the holy city"— The best texts omit the word John.

This is speaking of a physical city, one made up of inhabitants. By metonymy, the term "city" can stand for its inhabitants, as in Matt 8:34; Matt 12:25; Matt 21:10; Mark 1:33; Acts 13:44.

And behold, all the city came out to meet Jesus, and when they saw him, uthey begged him to leave their region.

Knowing their thoughts, ahe said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.

"And when he entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred up, saying, "Who is this?

[Insight]

"Coming down from God out of heaven"

Only those "born from above" (John 3:3) will find a place in this city. These are they who are begotten through "the incorruptible seed, even the word of God" (1 Pet 1:23), which is the "good and perfect gift" which is "from above" (James 1:17 James 3:15-17).

The Word of God is designed to change the characters of believers for the kingdom (John 15:3; John 17:17). When it takes possession of the minds and hearts of such, its influence is revealed in their lives, and their characters will gradually conform to that of the Lord Jesus Christ. His character is divine though his nature, while on earth, was human Heb 2:14. This word is able to transform (Rom 12:2) on the part of believers will be rewarded by the clothing upon of divine nature "from above" following the judgment. This "new Jerusalem," which is made up of the immortalised Redeemed will govern the earth, it is said to come "out of heaven," for every member of it must be "born from above" see 2 Pet 1:4; Rom. 5:1-2; 2 Cor 5:1-5; 1 Cor. 15:47-49 Col. 3:3 Rev. 22:12 Luke 14:14).

"Prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

[LightHammer]

I believe we are drifting a little bit. I think I have adequately debunked the heresy of Christ reigning physically on Earth for the thousand years Satan is bound up. I would like to conclude the dialogue on that heresy before we get too far into this next segiment.

I do not agree with your attempt to refer to the coming of the New Heaven and the New Earth as symbollic for some political fulfillment. Honestly it seems like a lazy left hook thrown by George Foreman after he has been worn down by the rope-a-dope. However I am willing to give it a fair shake. That's what this dialogue was supposed to be about.

However we do need to close the door on some of these open sub-topics primarily being this heresy of Christ leaving the Right Hand before His enemies are defeated and reigning on the Earth for a thousand years. We're both pretty upfront and honest Christians so I don't think its asking too much for you to acknowledge the revealed falsehood in that belief.

[Insight]

I wanted to test your undestanding of Rev 21 and whether you are able to draw back into the Old Testament to prove Yahweh has no need of destroying his Heavenly abode nor his earth as promised after the flood.

You cannot run from the literal return of Jesus Christ; this is why your apostacy has rob you of ever entering the Kingdom.

A true servant of Christ is eagerly waiting for the Master of the house to return:

Are your lamps trimmed and burning brightly? and a good supply of the oil of the Word in hand? Matt.24:42-44.

From our discussion I have determined you cannot speak to the Daniels prophecy or can you enter the Revelation with care.

"Therefore be ye also ready" (Roth.) "Wherefore ye also be getting ready". This is an exhortation to constant preparedness.

"ye think not" (Roth) "ye are not thinking".

You are like a sleeping man whose thoughts are constantly on dogmans so the very real danger that you will be found by my Lord in a state of unpreparedness is clear, not only have you lost your conception of the realities of the Kingdom but your vision of the glories to come you know not.

Jesus said....Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (Revelation 16:15)

Of course we know why he is coming...

And they (saints) sung a new song, saying, Thou (Jesus) art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain (past tense), and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall (future tense) reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:9-10)

I will persist for a little while with Rev 21 so I can bed down the three phases of the Kingdom of God on earth - feel free to read along and enter once you have a handle on the symbology.

Enjoy

Insight

[Insight]

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven"  

Having outlined what John had saw with his eyes the physical Jerusalem in all holiness and the means which this has occurred through a bride adorned for her husband.

A "great voice" now makes a proclamation outlining the new constitution of things on Earth.

"Saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men"

The Tabernacle comprised God's dwelling place in Israel (Exod. 25:8), which was a pattern of the future elect in whom He chooses to dwell (Heb 9:11; 2 Cor. 6:16).

And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst.

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)

What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

I know LH its hard to miss is it not!

With sin, death and the grave eradicated from the earth (Rev 20:14-15), and God made "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28), it can now at last be announced that "the tabernacle of God is with men"

The old Tabernacle (tent) in the wilderness was a parable of the new Jerusalem (Heb 9:9). It was made resplendent by materials obtained from Egypt, and built according to divine plan and specifications (Exod 12:36; 25:1-7). This foreshadowed the requirements of the new Jerusalem, or the "tabernacle not made with hands" (Heb. 9:11). It will be constructed of Yahweh's "special treasure" (Mal 3:17) taken from "out of the Gentiles" (Acts 15:14).

These divine plans have been accepted by the Elect and shaped them into divine beings full of glory and truth.

"And He will dwell with them"

Yahweh will not personally leave His throne in the heavens, to take up permanent residence on earth, but He will dwell with men in the terms of God manifestation: by revealing Himself through the Redeemed. Similar words are used to describe His dwelling in the sanctuary in the midst of Israel (Exod. 25:8; 29:45).

The token of His presence was the Shekinah (dwelling) glory which shone above the Mercy Seat and between the Cherubim (Psa. 80:1). Yahweh dwelt more personally among men when His glory was revealed through His son (John 1:14). He is yet to dwell among men in the multitude of the redeemed each one of whom will manifest His glory (Rom. 5:2; 2 Pet. 1:4; Rev. 3:12; Ezek. 43:1-3).

Finally, at the last judgment, at the conclusion of the millenium (1000 years), His glory will be so manifested, as to fulfil in every particular His declaration to Moses: "All the earth shall be filled with the glory of Yahweh" (Num. 14:21). He dwells with men, or better stated dwell in them, on Earth.

And they shall be His people" The Greek is laoi "peoples," plural. Abraham was promised that he would become "a father of many nations" (Gen. 17:5). At the end of the millenium (1000 yers), all nations will be incorporated into Christ, and will become one, united in the spiritual / physical walls of the new Jerusalem.

"And God Himself shall be with them, and be their God"

The words and be given in italics are inserted. The Greek is: "And God Himself will be with them - their God".

This is the foundation of the New Jerusalem: God manifested in each individual believer and each one acknowledging His status in the Heavens and the Earth.

Insight