Eschatology

[LightHammer]

Allow me to show forth your poor understanding of Scripture in the word "satan

[LightHammer]

Nothing of value here LH.

Brother, the last three pages of your evasion have had nothing of value.

This is too ridiculous to even comprehend...no wonder you are in such darkness.  The Woman and her wine has you inebriated.

LH you have just shot yourself in the foot with that one.

And on and on with the dramatics. Save it for Oprah.

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.  (Dan 2:44)

Maybe you would like to explain the "stand for ever

[Insight]

Allow me to show forth your poor understanding of Scripture in the word "satan

[Insight]

Nothing of value here LH.

Brother, the last three pages of your evasion have had nothing of value.

This is too ridiculous to even comprehend...no wonder you are in such darkness.  The Woman and her wine has you inebriated.

LH you have just shot yourself in the foot with that one.

And on and on with the dramatics. Save it for Oprah.

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.  (Dan 2:44)

Maybe you would like to explain the "stand for ever

[LightHammer]

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (1Ch 21:1) And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.  (1Ch 21:2)

AND

And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.  (2Sa 24:1)

Who stood up against Israel?

Satan the devil. He was able to do so because God was angry with Israel.

Its not the first time something like this has happened.

Satan was able to attack St. Job because of an allowance of God.

[Insight]

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (1Ch 21:1) And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.  (1Ch 21:2)

AND

And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.  (2Sa 24:1)

Who stood up against Israel?

Satan the devil. He was able to do so because God was angry with Israel.

Its not the first time something like this has happened.

Satan was able to attack St. Job because of an allowance of God.

Go back and actually read the accounts.

Who stood against Israel in both accounts?

[Insight]

And the Adversary stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (1Ch 21:1) And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.  (1Ch 21:2)

AND

And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.  (2Sa 24:1)

Maybe this might help you?

[LightHammer]

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (1Ch 21:1) And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.  (1Ch 21:2)

AND

And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.  (2Sa 24:1)

Who stood up against Israel?

Satan the devil. He was able to do so because God was angry with Israel.

Its not the first time something like this has happened.

Satan was able to attack St. Job because of an allowance of God.

Go back and actually read the accounts.

Who stood against Israel in both accounts?

You heard me the first time.

And the Adversary stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (1Ch 21:1) And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.   (1Ch 21:2)

AND

And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.  (2Sa 24:1)

Maybe this might help you?

You thought quoting a different translation would matter and it doesn't. Its still a title. An entity we see many times throughout the Bible. Arguing with God over St. Job. Standing against St. Joshua. Tempting Jesus Christ. This Satan is a real person whether you want to accept that or not is really irrelevant at this point in time.

[Insight]

You are in denial LH holding error firmly and shrinking into blindness....

While you are pondering God being the adversary who moved David to number Israel.

Here is another.

And the LORD stirred up an adversary (same word Satan) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.   (1Ki 11:14)

Now Hadad was not a supernatural demonic being to which God stirred up...just a fleshly sinful man who was adverse to Solomon.

I wonder if you have learnt anything yet!  

[Insight]

Once again the point has been made clear by the Word of God.

1. God is spoken of as being a Satan in Him being an adversary against Israel in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1. Your teaching of God and some Demonic being working with one mind and purpose against His people is totally absurd and only shows how juvenile you are in the Scriptures.

2. The Angel of the Lord was also a Satan though an obedient Angel in Num 22:22

3 Hadad the Edomite is also considered a Satan in 1 Kings 11:14

4. Peter is called a Satan in Matt 16:23 because he spoke those things out of a carnal fleshly mind and not the things of God.

And there are many more instances whereby a person, nation or its governments are considered Satan's in the Bible.  So how does this cause us to approach Rev 20:2?

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,   (Rev 20:2)

Well we know the "old" serpent is long dead as are all the animals which God has made, so who or what is symbolised by:

-Dragon
-Old Serpent
-Devil
-Satan

And why is it bound for a thousand years which happens to be the same duration as Christ reigning on earth (hint hint)?

Insight

[Insight]

Back on topic...

"That he (personified) should deceive the nations no more" Rev 20:2

We know LH in past ages, nations have been deceived by political aspirations that have led them to oppose the principles of God
(See Micah 4:12; Ezek. 43:7-8).

Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion. But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.  (Mic 4:12)

And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.  In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.  (Eze 43:8)

Rev 20:2 reveals this will no longer be permitted. Whilst the nations retain their individual identity during Christ's millenial reign, they will be all subjected to his authority: "their dominion will be taken away, but their lives prolonged for a season and time" (Dan. 7:12).

LH - do you believe the nations today have had thier dominion taken away?

Soon Lighthammer...soon.

Insight

[LightHammer]

You are in denial LH holding error firmly and shrinking into blindness....

While you are pondering God being the adversary who moved David to number Israel.

Here is another.

And the LORD stirred up an adversary (same word Satan) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.   (1Ki 11:14)

Now Hadad was not a supernatural demonic being to which God stirred up...just a fleshly sinful man who was adverse to Solomon.

I wonder if you have learnt anything yet!  

Again its called context. You're not proving anything you're simply making my point for me. I appreciate it actually. The adversay God put against St. Solomon was named Hadad not Adversary. Hadad was a satan his name was not Satan.

It was an adjective not a title. A basic sense of literature is all you need to distinguish the difference.

For example, Hadad means "mighty". The word "mighty" is used several times throughout the Bible, sometimes applied to Godly people sometimes to unGodly people, and even sometimes to God Himself. That doesn't change the fact that Hadad was a realm son of Ishmael Edomite.

Another more modern example to help you out. My name is Donovan. In the Gaelic dialect it means "dark-brown". There are billions of human beings on the planet who are donovan but they are not Donovan.

In the eastern dialects Donovan is closely defined as "strong fighter/warrior". The man who fought the battle of Jericho was a donovan but he was St. Joshua. The man who defended God's people was a donovan but he was St. Gideon. The man who tore a lion apart was the most powerful donovan but he was Samson.

You're a grown man I shouldn't have to take real time to give you a lesson in grammar you should know the difference between an adjective and a title.  

[LightHammer]

Once again the point has been made clear by the Word of God.

I agree God's written word is pretty clear on this topic. You should conform to it.

1. God is spoken of as being a Satan in Him being an adversary against Israel in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1. Your teaching of God and some Demonic being working with one mind and purpose against His people is totally absurd and only shows how juvenile you are in the Scriptures.

No God is spoken of being a satan, which means adversary. You don't capitalize adjectives unless they're titles and God never applied that word to Himself as a title.

You did that to support your false views.

2. The Angel of the Lord was also a Satan though an obedient Angel in Num 22:22

No the Angel of the Lord was also a satan, which means adversary. You don't capitalize adjectives unless they're titles and God never applied that word His angel as a title only a description of the role it was to play.

You did that support your false views.

3 Hadad the Edomite is also considered a Satan in 1 Kings 11:14

No Hadad the Edomite was also considered a satan, which means adversary. You don't capitalize adjectives unless they're titles and God's written word never applied that word to Hadad as a title only an adjective.

You did that to support your false views.

4. Peter is called a Satan in Matt 16:23 because he spoke those things out of a carnal fleshly mind and not the things of God.

No Christ was rebuking the actual Satan trying to stand against Christ's coming passion by playing on the love St. Peter had for Christ and Christ had for him.

Its not that hard to comprehend. Christ loved His Apostles after all. As a soldier I understand well the strategics involved. When you duty calls the most hindering and nerve-wrecking obstacle in the way is the face of fear and the tears of sorrow on a loved one who doesn't want to see you hurt. In several soldiers to day and throughout history there are times when the impression of a loved one is enough to abandon your sworn duty so I'm not shocked to see Satan trying to throw Christ off through the love of His closest Apostle.

He has done it before. Satan got to Adam by first going through Eve. Christ was after all the new Adam. His wife the church and St. Peter the leader closest to Him at the time. Its not that hard to se the inherent pattern.

[Insight]

Once again the point has been made clear by the Word of God.

I agree God's written word is pretty clear on this topic. You should conform to it.

Thank you for the encouragement.

1. God is spoken of as being a Satan in Him being an adversary against Israel in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1. Your teaching of God and some Demonic being working with one mind and purpose against His people is totally absurd and only shows how juvenile you are in the Scriptures.

No God is spoken of being a satan, which means adversary. You don't capitalize adjectives unless they're titles and God never applied that word to Himself as a title.

That's strange LH. If we took your limited approach to the Word we find the translators have capitalized "S" for God as being "S"atan.

I think this passage in 1 Chronicles 21:1 caught you off guard, so to speak.  This is the problem is one applies a blanket approach to the Word without looking into the context and meaning of the record.

When you see the word Satan or satan or Devil or devil your mind conjure's up all sorts of unscriptural imagery.  The kind one might find in a Hollywood movie.

What do you know about 1Ch 21:1?

Firstly, David is moved to number Israel, this has been shown to parallel the record with 2 Sa 24 (See verses 1-7). If you were wise you would consolidate the tow records comparing spiritual with spiritual before allowing your imaginations to run wild.

Secondly, David recognizes he has sinned in verse 8

Then, David has to choose between three curses from God (See 9-13)  He chooses the sword of the angel of the Lord who slays many in Jerusalem, stopping over the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite (See 14-17);

Finally David buys the threshing floor and sets up an altar, because the plague is stayed (See verses 18-30).

Of course in none of these matters are we presented with some make believe demonic being unless your Satan and your God are in cahoots working together in admonishing Israel.   Of course you would then need to explain how your beloved Satan has control of over Yahweh's angels?

In all this you become a fool as none of this threatens your demonic beliefs – simply understanding the record for what is teaches is enough. Yes God is given the Capital "S" of Satan in 1 Chron 21 however it does not imply as you wrongly state a title or name of some demonic creature of darkness, but rather the adversary work of Yahweh against His wayward children.

In other words the Satan activity here is positive full of goodness and not evil as you imply. This is to your shame LH.

If you admitted this truth you would gain more credibility in this discussion than you have at present.

If you come back with more obstinate reasoning's please provide a detail account of the two passages and reconcile how Satan and God are working together and how he has control of Yahweh's angel.

I would prefer to swallow your pride, admit you have wrested this record and lets move back to Rev 20 to find out who the adversary is there presented.

Insight

[LightHammer]

Once again the point has been made clear by the Word of God.

I agree God's written word is pretty clear on this topic. You should conform to it.

Thank you for the encouragement.

1. God is spoken of as being a Satan in Him being an adversary against Israel in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1. Your teaching of God and some Demonic being working with one mind and purpose against His people is totally absurd and only shows how juvenile you are in the Scriptures.

No God is spoken of being a satan, which means adversary. You don't capitalize adjectives unless they're titles and God never applied that word to Himself as a title.

That's strange LH. If we took your limited approach to the Word we find the translators have capitalized "S" for God as being "S"atan.

I think this passage in 1 Chronicles 21:1 caught you off guard, so to speak.  This is the problem is one applies a blanket approach to the Word without looking into the context and meaning of the record.

When you see the word Satan or satan or Devil or devil your mind conjure's up all sorts of unscriptural imagery.  The kind one might find in a Hollywood movie.

What do you know about 1Ch 21:1?

Firstly, David is moved to number Israel, this has been shown to parallel the record with 2 Sa 24 (See verses 1-7). If you were wise you would consolidate the tow records comparing spiritual with spiritual before allowing your imaginations to run wild.

Secondly, David recognizes he has sinned in verse 8

Then, David has to choose between three curses from God (See 9-13)  He chooses the sword of the angel of the Lord who slays many in Jerusalem, stopping over the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite (See 14-17);

Finally David buys the threshing floor and sets up an altar, because the plague is stayed (See verses 18-30).

Of course in none of these matters are we presented with some make believe demonic being unless your Satan and your God are in cahoots working together in admonishing Israel.   Of course you would then need to explain how your beloved Satan has control of over Yahweh's angels?

In all this you become a fool as none of this threatens your demonic beliefs – simply understanding the record for what is teaches is enough. Yes God is given the Capital "S" of Satan in 1 Chron 21 however it does not imply as you wrongly state a title or name of some demonic creature of darkness, but rather the adversary work of Yahweh against His wayward children.

In other words the Satan activity here is positive full of goodness and not evil as you imply. This is to your shame LH.

If you admitted this truth you would gain more credibility in this discussion than you have at present.

If you come back with more obstinate reasoning's please provide a detail account of the two passages and reconcile how Satan and God are working together and how he has control of Yahweh's angel.

I would prefer to swallow your pride, admit you have wrested this record and lets move back to Rev 20 to find out who the adversary is there presented.

Insight

God is never referred to as Satan which makes all of the above moot. Disappointing really. I was kind of excited to see if you come with something more biblically sound but I guess I hoped too much from an Arian.

[Insight]

Num 22:22

The translators could quite easily given the Satan here as a title to the Angel however the focus here is given on the adversary or opposing nature of the angel being in the way i.e. And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way,

So what you are learning is the idea that Satan is actually a word given to describe one being adverse to another it does not always clear who that might be.

Some passages one might need to work a little harder to discover the true nature of the Satan.

I spent some time with Gospel and Thankful going through the Job adversary and clearly they were confounded not answering any of the questions posed.  

Maybe you could go where no Christian has gone thus far?

To be frank with you LH the first three chapters of Job is the only place you can hang your demonic hat and it's very shaky – both Gospel and Thankful failed miserably and I doubt you will even go near it also.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/non-traditional-theology/job-chastening-and-perfecting-a-son-of-god/

So far as the discussion rages on Insight has made many more scripture references than every one else combined and has had more of a case built.

And this whole time he is proving a negative...not a positive.

And yet everyone else cannot seem to muster up any substantive proof that Satan does indeed exist as is commonly believed.

So please use some proofs to substantiate yawl's claims that Satan does indeed exist and exactly how and where and why he is capable of what he does do.

Insight is making more sense than the others in the NON-traditional forum than those from the Traditional Theology forum...

Soooo

Maybe a little less flaming posts and a lot more scholarship is needed...otherwise Insight is going to prove his case and everyone else is going to get modded into silence.

The problem for you LH is this:

If I did refute your Satan-ology with real Bible proofs, how would that affect your understanding of the prophetic books? Of what is the true enemy of God and how he overcame that enemy?

You are not yet silence but it drawing nearer by the post.

Insight

[Insight]

Once again the point has been made clear by the Word of God.

I agree God's written word is pretty clear on this topic. You should conform to it.

Thank you for the encouragement.

1. God is spoken of as being a Satan in Him being an adversary against Israel in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1. Your teaching of God and some Demonic being working with one mind and purpose against His people is totally absurd and only shows how juvenile you are in the Scriptures.

No God is spoken of being a satan, which means adversary. You don't capitalize adjectives unless they're titles and God never applied that word to Himself as a title.

That's strange LH. If we took your limited approach to the Word we find the translators have capitalized "S" for God as being "S"atan.

I think this passage in 1 Chronicles 21:1 caught you off guard, so to speak.  This is the problem is one applies a blanket approach to the Word without looking into the context and meaning of the record.

When you see the word Satan or satan or Devil or devil your mind conjure's up all sorts of unscriptural imagery.  The kind one might find in a Hollywood movie.

What do you know about 1Ch 21:1?

Firstly, David is moved to number Israel, this has been shown to parallel the record with 2 Sa 24 (See verses 1-7). If you were wise you would consolidate the tow records comparing spiritual with spiritual before allowing your imaginations to run wild.

Secondly, David recognizes he has sinned in verse 8

Then, David has to choose between three curses from God (See 9-13)  He chooses the sword of the angel of the Lord who slays many in Jerusalem, stopping over the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite (See 14-17);

Finally David buys the threshing floor and sets up an altar, because the plague is stayed (See verses 18-30).

Of course in none of these matters are we presented with some make believe demonic being unless your Satan and your God are in cahoots working together in admonishing Israel.   Of course you would then need to explain how your beloved Satan has control of over Yahweh's angels?

In all this you become a fool as none of this threatens your demonic beliefs – simply understanding the record for what is teaches is enough. Yes God is given the Capital "S" of Satan in 1 Chron 21 however it does not imply as you wrongly state a title or name of some demonic creature of darkness, but rather the adversary work of Yahweh against His wayward children.

In other words the Satan activity here is positive full of goodness and not evil as you imply. This is to your shame LH.

If you admitted this truth you would gain more credibility in this discussion than you have at present.

If you come back with more obstinate reasoning's please provide a detail account of the two passages and reconcile how Satan and God are working together and how he has control of Yahweh's angel.

I would prefer to swallow your pride, admit you have wrested this record and lets move back to Rev 20 to find out who the adversary is there presented.

Insight

God is never referred to as Satan which makes all of the above moot. Disappointing really. I was kind of excited to see if you come with something more biblically sound but I guess I hoped too much from an Arian.

The 13 poeple reading this discussion are scratching their heads  

Insight provided Scripture to support his understanding and even asked of LH...

If you come back with more obstinate reasoning's please provide a detail account of the two passages and reconcile how Satan and God are working together and how he has control of Yahweh's angel.

But all he could present is this:

God is never referred to as Satan which makes all of the above moot. Disappointing really. I was kind of excited to see if you come with something more biblically sound but I guess I hoped too much from an Arian.

Maybe your silence is closer than first thought.

[Insight]

We have narrrowed our discussion to the word adversary and how its applied in the Old and New Testament.

Have you also considered how devil or false accuser is used?

Look up Judas @ John 6:70.
Also the Women @ 1 Timothy 3:11 cf. Titus 2:3.
and the Men @ 2 Timothy 3:3.

Of course the Devil is also given its title to "Sin in the flesh" as per Heb. 2:14 cf. Heb. 9:26 and Rom. 5:21; 6:23 (to show that "devil" is synonymous with "sin") and then See Rom. 7:17, 18.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;  (Heb 2:14)

Children are partakers of flesh and blood.

Jesus took part in the same nature

Through death  he destroyed the devil

Which had the power of death

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:  (Rom 5:12) 

Hmmmmm "by one man sin entered the world"

I wonder what the true devil really is? 

[Insight]

4. Peter is called a Satan in Matt 16:23 because he spoke those things out of a carnal fleshly mind and not the things of God.

No Christ was rebuking the actual Satan trying to stand against Christ's coming passion by playing on the love St. Peter had for Christ and Christ had for him.

Again your understanding of how the word adversary is used in the Scriptures is once again in question.

When Christ said to Peter "GET BEHIND ME" it is clear Peter was standing in front of Jesus, as though to stop him from going any further.

Peter was responding out of his great love of Christ though here misguided and well-intended, he was nevertheless attempting to destroy the mission his Christ with his saying!

LH - if you entered the record rather than commenting from your lofty cathedrals you would see Jesus is saying "Don't hinder me; help me!

[Insight]

Lighhammer,

If I may provide a little more perspective on this deviation.  

Have you noticed more times than not the adversary is in human form? While we know the work of God is to stand in the way of those He loves.

You should be more inquisitive as to why this Satan stood up against Israel and provoked David to number Israel (1 Chron. 21: 1).

You see David numbered Israel, not for the mere sake of ascertaining the number of the people like that of a census, but for the purpose of pride: for the purpose of measuring his strength, in this he forgot the God of his strength.

From all the passages here quoted, it becomes perfectly apparent that the word Satan, so far as its use in the Old Testament is concerned, instead of meaning an invisible, supernatural being, means an adversary, and this adversary, a human being in a state of opposition.

In this manner of opposition you could be considered a Satan, in that you are teaching falsehood and causing others not to behold the simplicity of the truth.

Insight

[LightHammer]

Num 22:22

The translators could quite easily given the Satan here as a title to the Angel however the focus here is given on the adversary or opposing nature of the angel being in the way i.e. And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way,

So what you are learning is the idea that Satan is actually a word given to describe one being adverse to another it does not always clear who that might be.

Some passages one might need to work a little harder to discover the true nature of the Satan.

I spent some time with Gospel and Thankful going through the Job adversary and clearly they were confounded not answering any of the questions posed. 

Maybe you could go where no Christian has gone thus far?

To be frank with you LH the first three chapters of Job is the only place you can hang your demonic hat and it's very shaky – both Gospel and Thankful failed miserably and I doubt you will even go near it also.

No they could not because the Angel probably already has a title by which God calls Him, for instances there's St. Gabriel and St. Raphael. You don't seem to grasp the difference between an adjective and a title.

In your own world you may think you are arguing a valid point but you are simply choosing to look at the meaning of one Biblical person's name and then apply that eytmological meaning to other places in the Bible to remove the personal character from said Biblical being.

As I have demonstrated, and you beautifully ignored, I could do the same with every person in the Bible given a name even God Himself. I could take their names, break them down to their root meaning, identify every occurance where that root meaning is used in the Bible and argue that they where the word is used as a name or title it does not imply any real being just an emphasized idea.

I have also done so with my own name, which you also ignored. I could do so with your name and every other name on the planet, which I'm confident you would follow in your pattern and ignore.

Your method is flawed because every single name has a base meaning and the base meaning of those names appear multiple times throughout Sacred Scripture as not being names but adjectives. This doesn't serve to rob the person named of his/her personal being.

Now of course I don't expect you to particulary address the inherent flaw in your method. I just thought you should realize that its not a very impressive error to try and use in public. Honestly it makes you look like you have poor reading comprehension.

The problem for you LH is this:

If I did refute your Satan-ology with real Bible proofs, how would that affect your understanding of the prophetic books? Of what is the true enemy of God and how he overcame that enemy?

You are not yet silence but it drawing nearer by the post.

Insight

It is drawing nearer by the post? Are you trying to be funny? I have yet to even begin to deal with the isues forming this thread. You have only evaded and evaded from the convicting points of Sacred Scripture which is how we got to this subtopic in the first place. I appreciate the confidence but it would at least make the conversation something to look forward to if you had a better follow through. You talk big but your positions are weak and lack a further study of the written word. And you think I'm becoming silent? 

Refute my "Satanology"? Battle have you read your responses? Your entire position rests solely on inserting your preconceived thoughts with parathensis into the Bible and taking titles and applying them as adjectives. I shouldn't laugh but you think that's "real Bible proofs"?

Arian you have served me well. Every debate I have against your poorly formatted dialectic, I gain more and more confidence and pride in my beliefs.

[LightHammer]

Once again the point has been made clear by the Word of God.

I agree God's written word is pretty clear on this topic. You should conform to it.

Thank you for the encouragement.

1. God is spoken of as being a Satan in Him being an adversary against Israel in 2 Sam. 24:1 cf. 1 Chron. 21:1. Your teaching of God and some Demonic being working with one mind and purpose against His people is totally absurd and only shows how juvenile you are in the Scriptures.

No God is spoken of being a satan, which means adversary. You don't capitalize adjectives unless they're titles and God never applied that word to Himself as a title.

That's strange LH. If we took your limited approach to the Word we find the translators have capitalized "S" for God as being "S"atan.

I think this passage in 1 Chronicles 21:1 caught you off guard, so to speak.  This is the problem is one applies a blanket approach to the Word without looking into the context and meaning of the record.

When you see the word Satan or satan or Devil or devil your mind conjure's up all sorts of unscriptural imagery.  The kind one might find in a Hollywood movie.

What do you know about 1Ch 21:1?

Firstly, David is moved to number Israel, this has been shown to parallel the record with 2 Sa 24 (See verses 1-7). If you were wise you would consolidate the tow records comparing spiritual with spiritual before allowing your imaginations to run wild.

Secondly, David recognizes he has sinned in verse 8

Then, David has to choose between three curses from God (See 9-13)  He chooses the sword of the angel of the Lord who slays many in Jerusalem, stopping over the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite (See 14-17);

Finally David buys the threshing floor and sets up an altar, because the plague is stayed (See verses 18-30).

Of course in none of these matters are we presented with some make believe demonic being unless your Satan and your God are in cahoots working together in admonishing Israel.   Of course you would then need to explain how your beloved Satan has control of over Yahweh's angels?

In all this you become a fool as none of this threatens your demonic beliefs – simply understanding the record for what is teaches is enough. Yes God is given the Capital "S" of Satan in 1 Chron 21 however it does not imply as you wrongly state a title or name of some demonic creature of darkness, but rather the adversary work of Yahweh against His wayward children.

In other words the Satan activity here is positive full of goodness and not evil as you imply. This is to your shame LH.

If you admitted this truth you would gain more credibility in this discussion than you have at present.

If you come back with more obstinate reasoning's please provide a detail account of the two passages and reconcile how Satan and God are working together and how he has control of Yahweh's angel.

I would prefer to swallow your pride, admit you have wrested this record and lets move back to Rev 20 to find out who the adversary is there presented.

Insight

God is never referred to as Satan which makes all of the above moot. Disappointing really. I was kind of excited to see if you come with something more biblically sound but I guess I hoped too much from an Arian.

The 13 poeple reading this discussion are scratching their heads  

Insight provided Scripture to support his understanding and even asked of LH...

If you come back with more obstinate reasoning's please provide a detail account of the two passages and reconcile how Satan and God are working together and how he has control of Yahweh's angel.

But all he could present is this:

God is never referred to as Satan which makes all of the above moot. Disappointing really. I was kind of excited to see if you come with something more biblically sound but I guess I hoped too much from an Arian.

Maybe your silence is closer than first thought.

Why would they scratch their heads?

God and Satan weren't working together at all. Haven't you been reading the Bible? Satan is allowed to move against God's people because either God is allowing a test of the people or God is angry with the people. 

In the story of St. Job God wanted to validate the faithfulness of St. Job and that's how Satan was allowed to plague him. Satan wanted to destroy St. Job's faithfulness and God used what Satan meant for great evil as a way to strengthen His servant.

It's not the first time God has done such. St. Joseph's brothers literally tried to take him out when they sold him into slavery but God used the evil intentions of St. Joseph's brothers for good the same way God used Satan's evil intention against St. Job as a means of testing him.

St. Job could have borrowed St. Joseph's words to his brothers and said them to Satan.

Genesis 50:20But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good,....

We see Satan alloted the opportunity to persecute Israel because of her apostacy.

Hosea 13:6According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.

7Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:

8I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.

Here we see God's wrath against apostate Israel causing this wild beast like a lion, leopard and bear to destroy. We have seen this symbollic Beast and know its not God or His friend but the empire that was allowed to envelope Israel because of her unfaithfulness.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Her Satan and his imperial Beast not working with God but allowed to work because of God's wrath against Israel.

To paint a picture, Israel like St. Job, had God's protective hedge around them. Once Israel became apostate God gave her time to repent but she refused and therefore He removed that protective hedge in His wrath. Because God in His wrath no longer guarded Israel Satan was allowed to devour her by means of his imperial Beast.

Not hard to put two and two together.

[Insight]

Why would they scratch their heads?

God and Satan weren't working together at all. Haven't you been reading the Bible? Satan is allowed to move against God's people because either God is allowing a test of the people or God is angry with the people.  

Read that again LH.

On one hand you say "they are not working together

[Insight]

No they could not because the Angel probably already has a title by which God calls Him, for instances there's St. Gabriel and St. Raphael. You don't seem to grasp the difference between an adjective and a title.

I grasp it well however you allow gramma to dictate your understanding.  Look behind the word Satan and see its application and don't be governed by grammatical correctness.

In your own world you may think you are arguing a valid point but you are simply choosing to look at the meaning of one Biblical person's name and then apply that eytmological meaning to other places in the Bible to remove the personal character from said Biblical being.

As I have demonstrated, and you beautifully ignored, I could do the same with every person in the Bible given a name even God Himself. I could take their names, break them down to their root meaning, identify every occurance where that root meaning is used in the Bible and argue that they where the word is used as a name or title it does not imply any real being just an emphasized idea.

Correct, however you cannot provide a single Scripture from Genesis chapter 1-3 or anywhere in the Bible of the person "Satan

[LightHammer]

Read that again LH.

On one hand you say "they are not working together

[Insight]

Your last post did nothing at all in proving a "supernatural" evil adversary?

Try again.

[Insight]

Not at all.

Here Satan prompts God to take away all that St. Job has in the anticipation of his renouncing God.

Job 1:11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

THIS is what God says in reply to Satan's challenge.

Yes but who actually acted against Job?

The Bible states clearly it was Yahweh and you can show no passage in the book of Job that Satan was responsible for these acts nor can you define the adversary who could possibly be one of the following:

1. An envious brother or body of people
2. An angel
3. A fallen angel


The Adversary said:

Job 1:11 Stretch out Your (God's) hand and touch (2:5)

Job:

Job 1:21 The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away. (2:10)

Job 6:4 The arrows of the Almighty are within me.

Job 9:17 He crushes me multiplies my wounds without cause.

Job 10:8 Your hands made me yet You would destroy me.

Job 19:6 Know then that God has wronged me.

Job 27:2 As God lives, who has taken away my justice.

Friends:

Job 5:17 Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.

Job 8:4 He (God) has cast your sons away for their transgression.

Job 11:6 God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves.

God:

Job 2:3 You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 42:11 All the adversity (evil) that the LORD had brought upon him

Now if your interest has been aroused as to why all of Job's afflictions were controlled by God with great precision?

It may be worth asking yourself who could actually be able to hold such a personal grudge against his brother? And how would God go about using that adversary to prove his Righteousness while still trying to redeem them, like that of God to Cain and Jesus to Judas.

Question:

After the first three chapters of Job can you show anywhere in the record where Job or the friends speak about this supernatural evil satan?

Show me just one verse LH

Insight

[LightHammer]

I grasp it well however you allow gramma to dictate your understanding.  Look behind the word Satan and see its application and don't be governed by grammatical correctness.

If I did that with the titles applied to God, He would be undone as living being as well. You are simply choosing the title Satan because you have a personal ax to grind. I have no such grind. None of my views would be altered whether Satan is person or simply the allegoric expression of an idea. Its just that the Bible gives too much personality to something you wish to call an idea. Futhermore for the most where the Bible gives titles to something there is a very tangible reality therein being described, not just an idea.

Correct, however you cannot provide a single Scripture from Genesis chapter 1-3 or anywhere in the Bible of the person "Satan

[LightHammer]

Your last post did nothing at all in proving a "supernatural" evil adversary?

Try again.

Typical evasion.

[Insight]

Interesting LH

Job 1:12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

•   Why does Satan need approval from God?

•   It appears from the record your Satan is powerless to do anything other than what God allows?

•   Explain how absolute evil and pure goodness can come together in Heaven for a meeting of minds?

•   Explain why the Satan is only interested in Jobs possessions and his relationship with God?

•   Explain how God is able to trust Satan in not taking his life?

•   Explain how and why God would allow this evil demonic being to go forth from his presence?

In all these provide chapter and verse to supprt your answers.

Insight

[Insight]

I grasp it well however you allow gramma to dictate your understanding.  Look behind the word Satan and see its application and don't be governed by grammatical correctness.

If I did that with the titles applied to God, He would be undone as living being as well. You are simply choosing the title Satan because you have a personal ax to grind. I have no such grind. None of my views would be altered whether Satan is person or simply the allegoric expression of an idea. Its just that the Bible gives too much personality to something you wish to call an idea. Futhermore for the most where the Bible gives titles to something there is a very tangible reality therein being described, not just an idea.

Correct, however you cannot provide a single Scripture from Genesis chapter 1-3 or anywhere in the Bible of the person "Satan

[LightHammer]

Interesting LH

Job 1:12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

•   Why does Satan need approval from God?

•   It appears from the record your Satan is powerless to do anything other than what God allows?

•   Explain how absolute evil and pure goodness can come together in Heaven for a meeting of minds?

•   Explain why the Satan is only interested in Jobs possessions and his relationship with God?

•   Explain how God is able to trust Satan in not taking his life?

•   Explain how and why God would allow this evil demonic being to go forth from his presence?

In all these provide chapter and verse to supprt your answers.

Insight

Now you're asking the right questions! I knew you wouldn't let me down my Arian brother and/or friend.

•   Why does Satan need approval from God?

8And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?'

Did you catch that? You asked why Satan needed God' approval to afflict St. Job. St. Job was a servant of God; a highly favoured servant in fact. Because St. Job was a servant of God, he had this;

10Hast not Thou made a hedge for him, and for his house, and for all that he hath -- round about?

St. Job had a protective hedge around him. God is infinitely more powerful than Satan so Satan needed God to remove His hedge in order to try and break St. Job.

•   It appears from the record your Satan is powerless to do anything other than what God allows?

Yes of course.

•   Explain how absolute evil and pure goodness can come together in Heaven for a meeting of minds?

I don't recall the chapter saying they met in Heaven?

It says that Satan came upon th midst of a group of beings called "the sons of God" who were oriented toward God. The presence of the Lord doesn't necessarily mean they were in Heaven only that God was present for their conversation. St. Moses and God at the burning bush for example. We read throughout the old Testament where God speaks to people from Heaven.

If the sons of God are angels spiritually over the Earth then its possible that God could have been visiting the Earth.

For example we see a being commanding St. Gabriel in Daniel 8 but this being who commands even archangels is not speaking from Heaven but from the direction Ulai.

Daniel 8:16And I hear a voice of man between [the banks of] Ulai, and he calleth and saith: Gabriel, cause this [one] to understand the appearance.

I'm not exactly sure where God, His "sons" and Satan were having this conversation but I doubt it was Heaven. In Heaven the presence of God is Biblically in His full glory, unrestrained and not humbled. St. Isaiah feared to even be in the presence therein because of His sin, so I doubt that any adversary of God could dwell within His unrestrained presence. Such an adversary would be destroyed by the sheer presence God.

Seems kind of like darkness trying to dwell in light or something ya know.

•   Explain why the Satan is only interested in Jobs possessions and his relationship with God?

I'm not sure I understand the question. What do you why is Satan only concerned with St. Job's possessions?

Satan didn't introduce St. Job into the conversation, God did. God was sort of bragging a little bit. St. Job made God eceptionally proud and so He was bragging to Satan about such. Satan then rebuttals saying that St. Job was only such a proud servant because God was spoiling him within the safety of the protective hedge. Satan claimed that if St. Job was tried, he would falter.

God proudly exhibits faith in His servant, which is kind of weird if you ask me and lets Satan test him. The original condition as stated in the chapter was that Satan could only harm St. Job's posessions. After loosing such St. Job didn't break and so Satan claimed that St. Job needed only be tried more harshly and God allowed Satan to do so.

•   Explain how God is able to trust Satan in not taking his life?

You assume that God even made it possible for Satan to take St. Job's life but the Bible refutes that here.

Job 1:12And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, all that he hath [is] in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of Jehovah.

Here God only offers the possessions of St. Job to be tred upon by Satan which He was fully capable of doing. St. Job was God's servant meaning everything St. Job had and was belonged ultimately to God, even St. Job's body and life. God allowed the possessions in St. Job's stewardship to tred upon to test St. Job. God did not give St. Job's life to the challenge and therefore Satan didn't even have to option of taking St. Job's life because Satan can never overpower God and take anything from Him.

•   Explain how and why God would allow this evil demonic being to go forth from his presence?

To test St. Job and validate the faithfulness of His servant therein.

The story of St. Job is truly a remarkable story indeed when you think about. Here we see a different theme than traditonal Bible talk. Instead of man placing absolute faith in God all the time God is demonstarting how much love and trust He has in us to stay true to Him. Its all about fellowship. We trust God and God trust us to trust Him.

Thats pretty cool love.

[LightHammer]

I grasp it well however you allow gramma to dictate your understanding.  Look behind the word Satan and see its application and don't be governed by grammatical correctness.

If I did that with the titles applied to God, He would be undone as living being as well. You are simply choosing the title Satan because you have a personal ax to grind. I have no such grind. None of my views would be altered whether Satan is person or simply the allegoric expression of an idea. Its just that the Bible gives too much personality to something you wish to call an idea. Futhermore for the most where the Bible gives titles to something there is a very tangible reality therein being described, not just an idea.

Correct, however you cannot provide a single Scripture from Genesis chapter 1-3 or anywhere in the Bible of the person "Satan

[Insight]

Interesting LH

Job 1:12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

•   Why does Satan need approval from God?

•   It appears from the record your Satan is powerless to do anything other than what God allows?

•   Explain how absolute evil and pure goodness can come together in Heaven for a meeting of minds?

•   Explain why the Satan is only interested in Jobs possessions and his relationship with God?

•   Explain how God is able to trust Satan in not taking his life?

•   Explain how and why God would allow this evil demonic being to go forth from his presence?

In all these provide chapter and verse to supprt your answers.

Insight

Now you're asking the right questions! I knew you wouldn't let me down my Arian brother and/or friend.

They are right because you think you have an understanding – let see shall we?

•   Why does Satan need approval from God?

8And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?'

Did you catch that? You asked why Satan needed God' approval to afflict St. Job. St. Job

You are still not comprehending the record LH.

The adversary carried a grievance against Job.  Now I am pleased with your answer concerning the sons of God presenting themselves to God on earth and one of them being a Satan was among them.  

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan (adversary) also came among them. (Job 1:6)


Now the true nature of the adversary unlike that of God in 1 Chron 21 or the Angel, Peter etc is unknown in all the Job record.  To this you must agree, for thus far you have presented no evidence to prove it's true identity.

We are not told.


However we can explore its adverse characteristics that show us its adverse mindset.
Now you seem to not want to read the record as to who bought the evil upon Job.
The Adversary said:

Job 1:11 Stretch out Your (God's) hand and touch

Job:

Job 1:21 The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away.

Job 6:4 The arrows of the Almighty are within me.

Job 9:17 He crushes me multiplies my wounds without cause.

Job 10:8 Your hands made me yet You would destroy me.

Job 19:6 Know then that God has wronged me.

Job 27:2 As God lives, who has taken away my justice.

Friends:

Job 5:17 Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.

Job 8:4 He (God) has cast your sons away for their transgression.

Job 11:6 God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves.

God:

Job 2:3 You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 42:11 All the adversity (evil) that the LORD had brought upon him

Now if your interest has been aroused as to why all of Job's afflictions were controlled by God with great precision?

It may be worth asking yourself who could actually be able to hold such a personal grudge against his brother? And how would God go about using that adversary to prove his Righteousness while still trying to redeem them, like that of God to Cain and Jesus to Judas.

Question:

After the first three chapters of Job can you show anywhere in the record where Job or the friends speak about this supernatural evil satan?

Show me just one verse LH.

I appreciate you are unable to show me one example hence the reason for asking.  So your statement below is totally incorrect as per the record.

Your reluctance to acknowledge the absence of the adversary after chapter three and that God was the one who initiated the evil upon Job is worthy of consideration.

So this comment is incorrect as per the evidence presented.

Did you catch that? You asked why Satan needed God' approval to afflict St. Job. St. Job

The answer is that Satan or the adversary did not need approval at all as Yahweh is in total control of his relationship with Job and He decided to chasten his son to prove His righteousness through an obedient son.  The adversary, whomever it is irrelevant to the story, hence it is out of the record after chapter three having critiqued Job's integrity bringing into question his motives for serving Yahweh he is long forgotten and enters not into any of the friends dialogue which presents you with all sorts of issues to overcome.

was a servant of God; a highly favoured servant in fact.

True

Because St. Job was a servant of God, he had this;

10Hast not Thou made a hedge for him, and for his house, and for all that he hath -- round about?

Correct, God had blessed his substance with great wealth both spiritually and physically.

The hedge here relates only to the physical wealth for his spiritual hedge remained and was tested by God through many trials.
Hence the one who opposed Job was in my view one who held physical wealth in high regard.  A demonic being would not be concerned with a few sheep, goats and some camels!

So while you will endeavour to force and push fantacy into the record the reality is this person or persons, one like Cain or Judas became jealous and envious at his substance:

The Adversary could took offence to his family and his possessions:

7 Sons   (7= complete/perfection, Gen 2:2-3)
3 Daughters   (3= new life, Gen 22:4; 1Cor 15:4)
7,000 sheep
3,000 camels
500 yoke of oxen   (5= God's grace and favor)
500 female donkeys
The greatest man of all the peoples of the East

St. Job had a protective hedge around him.

Yes it is listed above.

God is infinitely more powerful than Satan so Satan needed God to remove His hedge in order to try and break St. Job.

Yes, you are correct, whether it was a supernatural being, or one like Cain who killed his brother God Himself removed the hedge and did so with complete control.

What is lovely about this LH if your mind is open are the deep lessons hidden here for Job.

God wanted Job to discern God's hand was working in his life:

1. The Sabeans attack   [Man]      3. The Chaldeans attack   [Man]
2. The lighting strikes   [God]       4. The tornado strikes   [God]

Four times—"I alone have escaped to tell you.

[LightHammer]

You are still not comprehending the record LH.

The adversary carried a grievance against Job.  Now I am pleased with your answer concerning the sons of God presenting themselves to God on earth and one of them being a Satan was among them. 

1. God back and reread the conversation Satan doesn't even mention St. Job. God does. Satan didn't voice any initial grievance with St. Job God was bragging on St. Job's faithfulness.

2. No that is a distortion. The verse does not say the being was "a Satan" the verse says the being was simply "Satan" is title not a simple noun. If you want to altar what the Bible says then maybe you aren't a sincere student.

3. You have included yet another distortion. I am not a moron Insight I can infact read. The chapter does not say Satan was one of the sons of God. The verse clearly says that a group completely seperate from Satan were the "sons of God" that stationed to meet Him. Satan simply walked up into their midsts.

Please stop trying to insult my intelligence. I have very capable reading comprehension skills.

Now if your interest has been aroused as to why all of Job's afflictions were controlled by God with great precision?

Why are you so reluctant to actually stay within the context of the story. God wasn't afflicting St. Job, Satan was. God only allowed it in order to test St. Job. St. Job had no knowledge of what transpired between God and Satan and as such in his limited knowledge mistook the power of his affliction as coming from God. It was only natural seeing how St. Job had accreditted all the good in his life to God's direct actions. The same mentality would be applied to St. Job's thinking when considering the bad things happening.

People do it everyday.

We know from earlier verses that is was by the power of Satan that St. Job was tried and by the allotment of God that Satan was able to do so.

It would seem that you are unable to face that Truth. I wonder why.

The answer is that Satan or the adversary did not need approval at all as Yahweh is in total control of his relationship with Job and He decided to chasten his son to prove His righteousness through an obedient son.  The adversary, whomever it is irrelevant to the story, hence it is out of the record after chapter three having critiqued Job's integrity bringing into question his motives for serving Yahweh he is long forgotten and enters not into any of the friends dialogue which presents you with all sorts of issues to overcome.

That is simply unbiblical. I am not sure how else to put it. I have quoted the verses where God plainly permits Satan to afflict St. Job proving that Satan is the one doing the afflicting and God is simply allowing.

I don't know why you simply must evade away from the Bible but I guess its only to be expected.

Correct, God had blessed his substance with great wealth both spiritually and physically.

The hedge here relates only to the physical wealth for his spiritual hedge remained and was tested by God through many trials.
Hence the one who opposed Job was in my view one who held physical wealth in high regard.  A demonic being would not be concerned with a few sheep, goats and some camels!

Nope not at all.

The word hedge in Thayer's Lexicon refers to a fence or guard gate. It in no way correlates to the blessings of property but of the protection of God. I am kind of loosing interest with this simple stuff. I had hoped you would come with a more indepth and sound stance but it seems like distorting the words of the Bible is the Arian's only defense mechanism.

Yes it is listed above.

No those properties were not the protective hedge that guarded St. Job from Satan.

This is a unique answer LH.  Many Satanist's believe he does have influence and power but of course the Job account speaks against such a belief.

Do not call me a Satanist? Are you crazy? Brother don't get silly with me. You know that title has a home in a cult of those who reverence Satan don't apply that title to me as if it means people who simply believe Satan exist.

Wha's wrong with you?

While this is true – it is ashame you cannot at least be likened to Jobs wife! She didn't event a supernatural demonic being but foolishly spoke out against God.

You speak as if the woman was even capable of being aware of Satan. I think you have a weird view of who I think Satan even is. I keep getting silly questions like "Do you believe in dragons" and "Why didn't the people see this demon?"

Its kind of silly.

So you believe God needs Satan to test his sons?

Again with the distortions. Did I say God needs Satan to test people or did I say God allowed Satan to test? There is major difference.

Forgive me LH but when I read "satan