Eschatology

[Insight]

You are still not comprehending the record LH.

The adversary carried a grievance against Job.  Now I am pleased with your answer concerning the sons of God presenting themselves to God on earth and one of them being a Satan was among them.  

1. Go back and reread the conversation Satan doesn't even mention St. Job. God does. Satan didn't voice any initial grievance with St. Job God was bragging on St. Job's faithfulness.

Firstly God does not brag – let's get this straight.  Secondly, the adversary question Jobs faithfulness being that it was based on the hedge of wealth surrounding him.

This is crystal clear.

2. No that is a distortion. The verse does not say the being was "a Satan" the verse says the being was simply "Satan" is title not a simple noun. If you want to altar what the Bible says then maybe you aren't a sincere student.

Again, you appear to struggle with the idea that a title can apply to anyone, a person, a group of people could be represented by this title.  

This is the point! You cannot prove from Job a demonic supernatural being – post after post you I keep asking but you keep falling short.

Plausible Possibilities of Satan (or Adversary)

1 One of his congregation who held an envious spirit toward Job – wishing ill of him because of his many possessions.

2 Two – which you alluded to above is that an Angel could have presented these "ideas

[LightHammer]

Firstly God does not brag – let's get this straight.  Secondly, the adversary question Jobs faithfulness being that it was based on the hedge of wealth surrounding him.

This is crystal clear.

Please God brags all the time. When one of His children makes Him proud He always voices His pride.

Satan only questions St. Job's faithfulness because God brings St. Job.

Read it again.

Again, you appear to struggle with the idea that a title can apply to anyone, a person, a group of people could be represented by this title. 

This is the point! You cannot prove from Job a demonic supernatural being – post after post you I keep asking but you keep falling short.

Plausible Possibilities of Satan (or Adversary)

1 One of his congregation who held an envious spirit toward Job – wishing ill of him because of his many possessions.

2 Two – which you alluded to above is that an Angel could have presented these "ideas

[LightHammer]

SIDEBAR


This will be my last night online until after the Lent season Brother and/or Friend. I won't be checking in at all either just so you know but I will be back after April 5th.

[Insight]

SIDEBAR


This will be my last night online until after the Lent season Brother and/or Friend. I won't be checking in at all either just so you know but I will be back after April 5th.

I will wait until your return.

God Bless

Insight

[LightHammer]

SIDEBAR


This will be my last night online until after the Lent season Brother and/or Friend. I won't be checking in at all either just so you know but I will be back after April 5th.

I will wait until your return.

God Bless

Insight

Alright then.

Peace. Knowledge. Faith and True Love, Insight.

[Insight]

So far I have presented you one aspect of Job's adversary showing forth an understanding of his evil intent.

If you read over your thoughts you will see very clearly they (potentially) can be attributed to an Angel or a Human.

I hoped you would introduce something to prove an evil supernatural being, however thus far my hands are lifted  

The question any real Bible Student needs to ask in relation to Job's adversary is determining the motive and intent behind his thoughts.

Is there a wicked or sinful mind behind the adversaries words? See Job 1:9-11; 2:5

As you rightly suggest God presented his servant to the adversary. We do not know whether the adversary had Job in mind prior although his knowledge of his wealth and possession shows he was close to Job in some way.

The reality Lighthammer is they CAN be read that way (as I have shown), but they do not HAVE to be read that way.  

Although "angels of God" are immortal, they can be limited both in their personal knowledge and in their personal powers.

(Consider the following passages as proof texts Mat 24:36; 1Pe 1:12; Dan 10:13; 8:13; Gen 22:12; 32:24-28; Exo 31:1,7 compared with Exo 23:12).

So it is possible to read the words of this angelic "satan" as expressing his assessment of the life of Job... distorted somewhat by his own limited knowledge.

We know Angels desire to look into things they have no or little knowledge about...which reveals God wisdom is something to "seek" and uncover not freely given.

I am conscious we have not entered into Revelation as we had hoped although I see the need to overcome this fallen angel theology which is a plight on Christianity and clouding your vision as the understanding of the true Bible adversary.

Do you have any other more compelling passages to prove your Fallen Angel belief? Maybe something from Genesis Chapter 1-3? Which is the foundation book upon which the whole house is constructed.  

If not lets press forward with Job for a while...

For example:

Does God give to His "angel" or "human" the testing of Job?

"Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself do not put forth your hand" (Job 1:12).

Now compare verse 12 with verse 21..

"The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD."

Who was it that took away Job's health, wealth, and family?

The logical and Scritpual answer is God Himself.

For even Job states....Job 2:10: "Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?"

The issue you have is Job not once identifies with your demonic being.

And also with Job 19:21, where Job says: "Have pity on me, have pity on me, O you my friends, for the hand of God has touched me!"

Doesn't this equate the "satan" with "the hand of God"?  

Here again you have a huge problem in reconciling the Satan with God Himself.

And so, all through Job 2, "Satan" continues to hold out for his own assessment of things, while God agrees to bring more and yet more trial upon Job... until, eventually, it may be assumed, "Satan" is finally satisfied with the integrity of Job.

Is this fair? Is this the way God acts?

Of course!!!

The NT is filled with discussions of the trials brought by God on His faithful ones, to perfect or purify their faith.

I believe you need to put to one side you narrow unbiblical view (of a fallen angel) and begin from the beginning i.e Genesis

If your beginning is in error the rest is worthless.

Maybe its time for you to consider the Scriptures are telling you an entirley different message than you have been taught.

Take this passage for instance...please note 1 Peter 1:6-12:

"In this you rejoice (Lighthammer), though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

(Note the revelation of Jesus Christ?)

Without having seen him (Jesus) you love him; though you do not now see him you believe in him and rejoice with unutterable and exalted joy. As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your lives. The prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired about this salvation; they inquired what person or time was indicated by the Spirit (mind) of Christ within them when predicting the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glory. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things which have now been announced to you by those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look."

Where is the demonic being spoken here in terms of suffering and sin?

I would again be interested where exactly you base your firm belief in a fallen angel and please provide greater detail in its existence.

1 Peter 1 when when compared with Job we find that severe trials by which the faith of the believer is purified.

The prophets (including those OT writers) saw, faintly perhaps, the sufferings of Christ mirrored in the lives of OT men (as Job no doubt did).

These sufferings were followed by subsequent glory.

Did you notice precisely what it is that angels desire to look into?

"into these things (i.e. sufferings, trials, perfecting of faith etc) [/b]

ANGELS LONGED TO LOOK!"

Of course this only further support one of two plausible interpretations.

1. Angel making unenlightened assessment of Jobs faith
2. A human adversary jealous of the hedge and blessing Job received of God.

In my view, both have their merit and both lead us to the same conclusion in Job 42.

Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted Job over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and everyone an earring of gold. KJV

And come unto him do all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all his former acquaintances, and they eat bread with him in his house, and bemoan him, and comfort him concerning all the evil that Yahweh had brought upon him, and they gave to him each one kesitah, and each one ring of gold. YLT

Then all his brothers and all his sisters and all who had known him before came to him, and they ate bread with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversities that the LORD had brought on him. And each one gave him one piece of money, and each a ring of gold.

All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.

Then all his brothers, sisters, and former friends came and feasted with him in his home. And they consoled him and comforted him because of all the trials the LORD had brought against him. And each of them brought him a gift of money and a gold ring.

Again many reading this post will ask where is your demonic being if all the trials, evil, adversities, and trouble were God's doing?

What room is there here for a make believe demonic being?

I will wait for you to prove from Job or anywhere in the Bible this fallen angel/demonic being actually exists.

Insight

[LightHammer]

I hoped you would introduce something to prove an evil supernatural being, however thus far my hands are lifted   

You mean apart from two conversations between God and the Devil?

God (a real being) was having a conversation with the Devil (an idea personified only in allegory)? Ok if you insist.

I will wait for you to prove from Job or anywhere in the Bible this fallen angel/demonic being actually exists.

Insight

Please forgive me but I'd rather not watse more server space with this one. What exactly constitutes "proof" to you? I have God (a real being) actually talking to the Devil but you claim the Devil is not a real person? I have St. Joshua (a real person) becoming High Priest with Satan resisting him but you claim that Satan is not real? I have Jesus Christ (a real person) having an entire conversation with Satan but you claim that Satan is not real?

I have St. Job afflicted, yet you want to claim it is by God.

Do me this little favor and tell me what I have to show you in order to prove that the Satan is a real being?

[Insight]

You mean apart from two conversations between God and the Devil?

Correction.

You mean apart from two conversations between God and the adversary (satan); I do believe (and correct me if I am wrong) the word "Devil" is not found at all in the Hebrew OT.

You might consider why that is.

God (a real being) was having a conversation with the Devil (an idea personified only in allegory)? Ok if you insist.

In relation to Job you cannot prove the identity of the adversary - impossible on both sides of our conversation. You can infer a evil supernatural being while I can infer either a holy divine supernatural being or a human.

As I have proven both these options are Biblically plausible.

Please forgive me but I'd rather not watse more server space with this one. What exactly constitutes "proof" to you? I have God (a real being) actually talking to the Devil but you claim the Devil is not a real person? I have St. Joshua (a real person) becoming High Priest with Satan resisting him but you claim that Satan is not real? I have Jesus Christ (a real person) having an entire conversation with Satan but you claim that Satan is not real?

I have St. Job afflicted, yet you want to claim it is by God.

Do me this little favor and tell me what I have to show you in order to prove that the Satan is a real being?

While I appreciate you have a strong grasp of the English language and need not any to teach you of "inference" and its meaning. Throughout our discussion and even in your statement above you infer something which you have drawn a conclusion that hasn't been directly stated from given information in Scripture.

You see I have asked many questions on the account of Job many of which you have either conveniently avoided or maybe a little laziness on your part, I know not only you know.

We have explored the "adversary" of Job and found no evidence of a fallen angel or evil demonic being as you teach. Should we move on to your example of Joshua the High Priest?

And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.  (Zec 3:1)

And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?  (Zec 3:2)

Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.  (Zec 3:3)

Firstly I will allow you to teach your supernatural being from the context of this passage.  I am seeking from you the details based upon the historical context of this account. If you are able to also prove the prophetical application of this passage once again with real evidence to the character and person of your evil supernatural being that would be of interest.

Of course you would appreciate I would not ask such things if I myself could not show a Scriptural understanding to who precisely the adversary was to Joshua during his day; of course I can also prove precisely who the adversary was in the day of the Lords probation.

Insight

[LightHammer]

Correction.

You mean apart from two conversations between God and the adversary (satan); I do believe (and correct me if I am wrong) the word "Devil" is not found at all in the Hebrew OT.

You might consider why that is.

Correction.

You apart from the two conversations between God and Satan. Capitalized name not lower cased adjective. You may want to consider that.

In relation to Job you cannot prove the identity of the adversary - impossible on both sides of our conversation. You can infer a evil supernatural being while I can infer either a holy divine supernatural being or a human.

As I have proven both these options are Biblically plausible.

I can when Satan is called the Devil who I also called by other evil names throughout the Bible. The simple fact is that if you cut the book of St. Job out of the Bible then you would have a point. Satan's identity would be unverifiable.

However that of course no man can do because God assured that His Word would endure  as a whole. ]

You bury yourself Insight. You admit that Satan in the book of Job is a real being but in sticking to Job he is unverifiable. If you look up all the other places were Satan is described in more detail with different names we know he is a fallen heavnely host.

[Insight]

Correction.

You apart from the two conversations between God and Satan. Capitalized name not lower cased adjective. You may want to consider that.

I am fine with the Capital as I understand the person or persons behind the title.

I believe you are yet to consider that, but rather assume or infer an understanding which is still unproven on your part.

I can when Satan is called the Devil who I also called by other evil names throughout the Bible. The simple fact is that if you cut the book of St. Job out of the Bible then you would have a point. Satan's identity would be unverifiable.

Again, you show inference to be the basis of your exposition. No need to cut anything out Lighthammer - best you deal with what is written and endeavour to open the Word rather than prescribe certian unfounded notions which I have stated and restate is your practice to date.

You bury yourself Insight. You admit that Satan in the book of Job is a real being but in sticking to Job he is unverifiable. If you look up all the other places were Satan is described in more detail with different names we know he is a fallen heavenly host.

Ok. So you desire to not consider Joshua or his adversary...seems like a rerun of our Job discussion  

I admit Satan is an adversary in the book of Job - could be a very good Satan or evil as the account does not provide us sufficient information to draw a valid conclusion.  At least I am willing to admit this on my part.

The fact the adversary falls quickly away from the record after chapter 3 shows how insignificant he is on the overall theme of the book.

So you ask me to look up others passages in the Bible to verify the identity of the adversary? Yes? And then you say this single evil being is described in more detail with different names and is fallen from the heavenly host? Yes?

And yet you follow-up this statement with what  

Because your EFC said so and becuase you have adotped their way of forming doctrine?

We are to accept the word of Lighthammer as truth?

You support your teaching with what Lighthammer   with what  

Insight

[LightHammer]

Ok. So you desire to not consider Joshua or his adversary...seems like a rerun of our Job discussion 

I admit Satan is an adversary in the book of Job - could be a very good Satan or evil as the account does not provide us sufficient information to draw a valid conclusion.  At least I am willing to admit this on my part.
The fact the adversary falls quickly away from the record after chapter 3 shows how insignificant he is on the overall theme of the book.

So you ask me to look up others passages in the Bible to verify the identity of the adversary? Yes? And then you say this single evil being is described in more detail with different names and is fallen from the heavenly host? Yes?

And yet you follow-up this statement with what 

Because your EFC said so and becuase you have adotped their way of forming doctrine?

We are to accept the word of Lighthammer as truth?

You support your teaching with what Lighthammer   with what 

Insight

Seriously?   

Insight you're acting as though the Satan in Joshua is a different Satan from the one in Job.

Or the one in 1 Chronicle 21:1, or Zechariah, or the four gospels, or Revelation 12:9.

That's the point. Your opposition only works if we treat the Book of St. Job as an isolated text or if we treat Satan as an adjective rather that a name that reoccurs throughout the other Bible.

You can pretend as though Satan is unidentifiable but I tend to stick to the Bible as a whole.

[Insight]

Ok. So you desire to not consider Joshua or his adversary...seems like a rerun of our Job discussion  

I admit Satan is an adversary in the book of Job - could be a very good Satan or evil as the account does not provide us sufficient information to draw a valid conclusion.  At least I am willing to admit this on my part.
The fact the adversary falls quickly away from the record after chapter 3 shows how insignificant he is on the overall theme of the book.

So you ask me to look up others passages in the Bible to verify the identity of the adversary? Yes? And then you say this single evil being is described in more detail with different names and is fallen from the heavenly host? Yes?

And yet you follow-up this statement with what  

Because your EFC said so and becuase you have adotped their way of forming doctrine?

We are to accept the word of Lighthammer as truth?

You support your teaching with what Lighthammer   with what  

Insight

Seriously?    

C'on Lighthammer you can rise above this!

Insight you're acting as though the Satan in Joshua is a different Satan from the one in Job.

No acting Lighthammer.

Or are the one acting here  

Or the one in 1 Chronicle 21:1, or Zechariah, or the four gospels, or Revelation 12:9.

So you cannot prove they are the same adversary but are willing to assume like you have done with Job's adversary?

That's the point. Your opposition only works if we treat the Book of St. Job as an isolated text or if we treat Satan as an adjective rather that a name that reoccurs throughout the other Bible.

And I invited you to consider the isolated incident of Joshua and his adversary but so far you have declined.

You can pretend as though Satan is unidentifiable but I tend to stick to the Bible as a whole.

Well, you say a whole but you do not treat it as such.

Again I invite you to teach us about the adversary in Zechariah

What if we consider everywhere the word Satan is used and you discovered the context was different in each passage and spoke to something entirely unknown to you?

Would your mind be open to learn or would you prefer to blanket the whole Scripture with error?

The choice is yours.

[LightHammer]

Quote

Insight you're acting as though the Satan in Joshua is a different Satan from the one in Job.

No acting Lighthammer.

Or are the one acting here 

Quote

Or the one in 1 Chronicle 21:1, or Zechariah, or the four gospels, or Revelation 12:9.

So you cannot prove they are the same adversary but are willing to assume like you have done with Job's adversary?

What do you mean prove they are the same. His NAME was Satan. What is wrong with you? That's the being's NAME, its his name.

Show me one other place in the Bible two non humans share the same name. Just show me one time.

[Insight]

It appears you are having trouble with context Lighthammer.

Lets simplify things a little shall we.

When Paul wrote the below verse what exactly was he teaching?

To deliver such an one unto Satan (adversary) for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.   (1 Co 5:5)

What is the practical outworking of Pauls advice and explain in what way the flesh is destroyed by handing a person over to this evil supernatural being, can you explain how I might do this; am I able to summons him and ask him to take this person so as to destroy their physical body? And once their flesh is destroyed how do I go about recovering this person as per 2 Co 2:6-8.

Help me to understand how sending a person while they are alive to be given to this evil being is going to save them if with your conventional understanding of the evil one is as you say "evil".

Insight

p.s you might like to consider the context to determine the true nature of the Satan here? a small tip! I am interested also in why the flesh needs destroying? What has this evil being to do with our flesh?

[Insight]

While you are consulting your archives:

How about this one:

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." 1 Peter 5:8

James was kind enough to provide us with the nature of this false accuser being an "adversary" but notice how he/it is defined?

"as a roaring lion"

Maybe you can show how we can take this literally as I am yet to see this being roar, or roam as one who devours people openly - have seen this lion lately?

Maybe you could take me to 2 Timothy 4:17 and define precisely who the roaring lion was for Paul?

Lets see if you can be lead my Catholic foe.

Insight

[LightHammer]

It appears you are having trouble with context Lighthammer.

Lets simplify things a little shall we.

When Paul wrote the below verse what exactly was he teaching?

To deliver such an one unto Satan (adversary) for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.   (1 Co 5:5)

What is the practical outworking of Pauls advice and explain in what way the flesh is destroyed by handing a person over to this evil supernatural being, can you explain how I might do this; am I able to summons him and ask him to take this person so as to destroy their physical body? And once their flesh is destroyed how do I go about recovering this person as per 2 Co 2:6-8.

Help me to understand how sending a person while they are alive to be given to this evil being is going to save them if with your conventional understanding of the evil one is as you say "evil".

Insight

p.s you might like to consider the context to determine the true nature of the Satan here? a small tip! I am interested also in why the flesh needs destroying? What has this evil being to do with our flesh?

Oh goodness it was allegorical. St. Paul was telling the church in Corinth to excommunicate the fornicators while they were still sinning so that they would not pose a threat to the community. In their exile they were to see the eroor their ways and eventually return to the right path.

Kind of like the prodigal son.

The use of Satan here does nto mean to literally hand them to Satan but it doesn't remove the personal existence of Satan.

The Bible does the same thing with God several hundred times.

You have to be able to do better than that.

[Insight]

It appears you are having trouble with context Lighthammer.

Lets simplify things a little shall we.

When Paul wrote the below verse what exactly was he teaching?

To deliver such an one unto Satan (adversary) for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.   (1 Co 5:5)

What is the practical outworking of Pauls advice and explain in what way the flesh is destroyed by handing a person over to this evil supernatural being, can you explain how I might do this; am I able to summons him and ask him to take this person so as to destroy their physical body? And once their flesh is destroyed how do I go about recovering this person as per 2 Co 2:6-8.

Help me to understand how sending a person while they are alive to be given to this evil being is going to save them if with your conventional understanding of the evil one is as you say "evil".

Insight

p.s you might like to consider the context to determine the true nature of the Satan here? a small tip! I am interested also in why the flesh needs destroying? What has this evil being to do with our flesh?

Oh goodness it was allegorical. St. Paul was telling the church in Corinth to excommunicate the fornicators while they were still sinning so that they would not pose a threat to the community. In their exile they were to see the error their ways and eventually return to the right path.

Kind of like the prodigal son.

The use of Satan here does nto mean to literally hand them to Satan but it doesn't remove the personal existence of Satan.

The Bible does the same thing with God several hundred times.

You have to be able to do better than that.

Ah - so the term Satan here does not mean handing them to a literal evil supernatural being but rather as you say "excommunicate the fornicators " by sending them into the world (Satan) to suffer the estrangement of their excommunication" in the hope they will put these fleshly passions (fornication as you say) to death; with the view of recovery.

Ok so we have you on record to say the term Satan here is not a literal being but rather a title given to the world.

I Understand and agree...and this of course then leads us to the definition of this adversary in...

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.  (1Jn 2:16)

Ok so no mention he of an evil demonic being or anything like it but rather as you say this person is sent out into the "world" where they can either continue to experience the lusts of the flesh or return having put these passions to death by crucifying them as expressed in...

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.   (Gal 5:24)

So you cannot prove your beings identy from Corinthians...

Where to now?

[LightHammer]

It appears you are having trouble with context Lighthammer.

Lets simplify things a little shall we.

When Paul wrote the below verse what exactly was he teaching?

To deliver such an one unto Satan (adversary) for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.   (1 Co 5:5)

What is the practical outworking of Pauls advice and explain in what way the flesh is destroyed by handing a person over to this evil supernatural being, can you explain how I might do this; am I able to summons him and ask him to take this person so as to destroy their physical body? And once their flesh is destroyed how do I go about recovering this person as per 2 Co 2:6-8.

Help me to understand how sending a person while they are alive to be given to this evil being is going to save them if with your conventional understanding of the evil one is as you say "evil".

Insight

p.s you might like to consider the context to determine the true nature of the Satan here? a small tip! I am interested also in why the flesh needs destroying? What has this evil being to do with our flesh?

Oh goodness it was allegorical. St. Paul was telling the church in Corinth to excommunicate the fornicators while they were still sinning so that they would not pose a threat to the community. In their exile they were to see the error their ways and eventually return to the right path.

Kind of like the prodigal son.

The use of Satan here does nto mean to literally hand them to Satan but it doesn't remove the personal existence of Satan.

The Bible does the same thing with God several hundred times.

You have to be able to do better than that.

Ah - so the term Satan here does not mean handing them to a literal evil supernatural being but rather as you say "excommunicate the fornicators " by sending them into the world (Satan) to suffer the estrangement of their excommunication" in the hope they will put these fleshly passions (fornication as you say) to death; with the view of recovery.

Ok so we have you on record to say the term Satan here is not a literal being but rather a title given to the world.

I Understand and agree...and this of course then leads us to the definition of this adversary in...

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.  (1Jn 2:16)

Ok so no mention he of an evil demonic being or anything like it but rather as you say this person is sent out into the "world" where they can either continue to experience the lusts of the flesh or return having put these passions to death by crucifying them as expressed in...

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.   (Gal 5:24)

So you cannot prove your beings identy from Corinthians...

Where to now?

Nope that's not what LightHammer said. Try again.

In order to save server space and precious I'm going to wait for you to respond to what I actually say.

[Insight]

It appears you are having trouble with context Lighthammer.

Lets simplify things a little shall we.

When Paul wrote the below verse what exactly was he teaching?

To deliver such an one unto Satan (adversary) for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.   (1 Co 5:5)

What is the practical outworking of Pauls advice and explain in what way the flesh is destroyed by handing a person over to this evil supernatural being, can you explain how I might do this; am I able to summons him and ask him to take this person so as to destroy their physical body? And once their flesh is destroyed how do I go about recovering this person as per 2 Co 2:6-8.

Help me to understand how sending a person while they are alive to be given to this evil being is going to save them if with your conventional understanding of the evil one is as you say "evil".

Insight

p.s you might like to consider the context to determine the true nature of the Satan here? a small tip! I am interested also in why the flesh needs destroying? What has this evil being to do with our flesh?

Oh goodness it was allegorical. St. Paul was telling the church in Corinth to excommunicate the fornicators while they were still sinning so that they would not pose a threat to the community. In their exile they were to see the error their ways and eventually return to the right path.

Kind of like the prodigal son.

The use of Satan here does nto mean to literally hand them to Satan but it doesn't remove the personal existence of Satan.

The Bible does the same thing with God several hundred times.

You have to be able to do better than that.

Ah - so the term Satan here does not mean handing them to a literal evil supernatural being but rather as you say "excommunicate the fornicators " by sending them into the world (Satan) to suffer the estrangement of their excommunication" in the hope they will put these fleshly passions (fornication as you say) to death; with the view of recovery.

Ok so we have you on record to say the term Satan here is not a literal being but rather a title given to the world.

I Understand and agree...and this of course then leads us to the definition of this adversary in...

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.  (1Jn 2:16)

Ok so no mention he of an evil demonic being or anything like it but rather as you say this person is sent out into the "world" where they can either continue to experience the lusts of the flesh or return having put these passions to death by crucifying them as expressed in...

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.   (Gal 5:24)

So you cannot prove your beings identy from Corinthians...

Where to now?

Nope that's not what LightHammer said. Try again.

In order to save server space and precious I'm going to wait for you to respond to what I actually say.

No Lighthammer

You said

The use of Satan here does nto mean to literally hand them to Satan but it doesn't remove the personal existence of Satan

You infer of course that this passage is not speaking to a literal being but as you said...

excommunicate the fornicators...

So what you said and what I concluded is true.

You cannot expect anyone reading this verse to assume a literal evil being because as you know it cannot work.  Now I could press you hard and say "Ah, but the use of the capital "S" means it must be your actual personal Satan; and what response could you take after having posted that the capital "S" always speaks to the person of Satan.

All I needed to demonstrate here was the capital Satan here relates to the world and their banishment into the world, is what Paul had in mind and nothing at all to do with any supernatural evil being, at all! The fact you testified to its allegorical properties only emphasised my point (thankyou  ).

And what's with the server nonsense - if you felt so strongly about using memory why dont you close the "theology section" with all the rot that is purported over there?  Hypocrisy in my humble view.

So like I said - where to now to prove your supernatural monster? As I am comfortable we both have a sound understanding of 1 Corithians 5:5 in terms of your words

The use of Satan here doesnt mean to literally hand them to Satan but it doesn't remove the personal existence of Satan.

And by this you also mean it doesnt prove its existence either.

Agreed.

[Insight]

I must make this clear observation if I may.

Why are you having such difficulties in identifying and proving your supernatural devil?

[LightHammer]

I must make this clear observation if I may.

Why are you having such difficulties in identifying and proving your supernatural devil?

No issue at all. I have adequately done all of that.

If you want to twist words around to suit your fancy then be my guest but when you're ready to start taking things seriously we can continue. Me personally I have gotten everything of interest out of you.

[Insight]

Not so much as a goodbye?

[Insight]

Sad really - I was looking forward to discussing the Revelation.