Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

The clearest and incontrovertible evidence that the Roman Catholic church has successfully changed the Sabbath from the Sabbath to Sunday is the billions of CORRUPTED TEXT New Testaments in people's possession today.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

The Bible is the best selling, least read book in the world.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

<<I'm pointing out that if you want to know what the Catholic Church actually teaches then you should be using official/authoritative sources.  Quoting from some random non authoritative source is not evidence of that the Catholic Church actually teaches.>>


I'm pointing out that if you want to know what the Catholic Church actually teaches then you should be using 'Bible versions' of the last 100 years.  Quoting from the random non authoritative source is not evidence of what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

[winsome]

<<[ Added: I was thinking here of relatively recent documents (say last 100 years). Older official documents such as the decrees of past Ecumenical Councils (e.g. Trent)  and Papal decrees will not be on the Vatican web site]>>

This seems to me to be an admission of guilt; it is amazing the way things get twisted around. You have missed the whole point; it is the authority of the Catholic Church that is accused and primarily Catholic documents older than 100 years are acceptable as evidence.

<<An admission of guilt of what?
And why do you think it is an admission of guilt?>>

<<I'm pointing out that if you want to know what the Catholic Church actually teaches then you should be using official/authoritative sources.  Quoting from some random non authoritative source is not evidence of that the Catholic Church actually teaches.>>

Now it is you who is off topic; what the Catholic Church teaches has never been on topic; changing the Sabbath to Sunday is on topic, as is the false Authority of the Papacy in making the Changes, on topic. The fact that you tried to limit the evidence to the last 100 years, and then only official Papal documents, on a SDA forum makes you a comedian.

Yes changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday is on topic. Many of the other things you said were not.

I'm not trying to limit quotes from documents less than 100 years old. Please stop lying about what I said.

To go back to my earlier post
I raised four points and as far as I am concerned we are discussing those. We can move to other points when we have finished with those four.

1.
The Catholic Church have not changed the order of the commandments, or left one out.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

2.
The Catholic Church has not moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. The Sabbath remains Saturday.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

3.
When you give what you think is Catholic teaching can you quote from official Catholic sources.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

4.
Legally the Ten Commandments, along with the whole of the Jewish Law:
a)  was never applicable to Gentiles
b) was legally abrogated by Christ's death on the cross.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?


I also said
If you want to discuss any of these points I am happy to do that if you:
a) use official Catholic sources (where available)
b) leave off the negative and irrelevant side comments about the Catholic Church.

If you are going to continue making negative and irrelevant side comments about the Catholic Church then I see no point in continuing a discussion with you.

It's up to you. Do you want a sensible and reasoned discussion, or are you just here for Catholic bashing?

[Amo]

Yes changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday is on topic. Many of the other things you said were not.

I'm not trying to limit quotes from documents less than 100 years old. Please stop lying about what I said.

To go back to my earlier post
I raised four points and as far as I am concerned we are discussing those. We can move to other points when we have finished with those four.

1.The Catholic Church have not changed the order of the commandments, or left one out.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

Exo 20:1 ¶  And God spake all these words, saying, 2  I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4  Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6  And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7  Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9  Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 ¶  Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13  Thou shalt not kill.
14  Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15  Thou shalt not steal.
16  Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17  Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The above is the scriptural account of what God Himself spoke to Israel as the ten commandments. The following is from the Catechism found at the Vatican's web site.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1 - I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

2 - You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

3 - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.

4 - Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

5 - You shall not kill.

6 -You shall not commit adultery.

7 - You shall not steal.

8 - You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

9 - You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.

10 - You shall not covet ... anything that is your neighbor's....

As is obvious, they are not the same.

2.The Catholic Church has not moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. The Sabbath remains Saturday.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

Catechism of the Catholic Church(Emphasis mine)

The day of the Resurrection: the new creation

2174  Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica)—Sunday: (638, 349)

    We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106

Sunday—fulfillment of the sabbath

2175  Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107 (1166)

    Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108

2176  The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

A day of grace and rest from work

2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"121 human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.122 (2172)

2185  On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.123 Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health. (2428)

The charity of truth seeks holy leisure; the necessity of charity accepts just work.124

2186    Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life. (2447)

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees. (2289)

2188  In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."125 (2105)

IN BRIEF

2189  "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).

2190  The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.

2191  The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).

2192  "Sunday... is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 § 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247).

2193  "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound... to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body" (CIC, can. 1247).

2194  The institution of Sunday helps all "to be allowed sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives" (GS 67 § 3).

2195 Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day


The following quotes are from the APOSTOLIC LETTER DIES DOMINI by John Paul II

14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest because it is the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".

18.................In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

Chap.4
59.......................More than a "replacement" for the Sabbath, therefore, Sunday is its fulfilment, and in a certain sense its extension and full expression in the ordered unfolding of the history of salvation, which reaches its culmination in Christ.


62. It is the duty of Christians therefore to remember that, although the practices of the Jewish Sabbath are gone, surpassed as they are by the "fulfilment" which Sunday brings, the underlying reasons for keeping "the Lord's Day" holy — inscribed solemnly in the Ten Commandments — remain valid, though they need to be reinterpreted in the light of the theology and spirituality of Sunday: "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days you shall labour, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. Then you shall do no work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your servant, or your maid, or your ox, or your ass, or any of your beasts, or the foreigner within your gates, that your servant and maid may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded that you keep the Sabbath day" (Dt 5:12-15). Here the Sabbath observance is closely linked with the liberation which God accomplished for his people.


63. Christ came to accomplish a new "exodus", to restore freedom to the oppressed. He performed many healings on the Sabbath (cf. Mt 12:9-14 and parallels), certainly not to violate the Lord's Day, but to reveal its full meaning: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mk 2:27). Opposing the excessively legalistic interpretation of some of his contemporaries, and developing the true meaning of the biblical Sabbath, Jesus, as "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mk 2:28), restores to the Sabbath observance its liberating character, carefully safeguarding the rights of God and the rights of man. This is why Christians, called as they are to proclaim the liberation won by the blood of Christ, felt that they had the authority to transfer the meaning of the Sabbath to the day of the Resurrection. The Passover of Christ has in fact liberated man from a slavery more radical than any weighing upon an oppressed people — the slavery of sin, which alienates man from God, and alienates man from himself and from others, constantly sowing within history the seeds of evil and violence.

Sorry Winsome, what you say and what the above says seem to be two very different things. If Sunday replaces the seventh day, if the meaning of the Sabbath has been transferred to Sunday, if the practices and observance of the seventh day are gone, being surpassed and fulfilled in Sunday observance, If Sunday is more than a replacement for Sabbath but the fulfillment of it, if it is the day now sanctified by God rather than the seventh day, which by the way scripture says nowhere, then all who believe such have obviously changed the day in their hearts, minds, and thus actions.

All these things are taught by the Catholic church in many more places than just the few examples I have provided above. Your denial is highly suggestive of an institution speaking out of both sides of it's mouth. If the Sabbath remains, then it is to be observed by all who profess to worship the God of the bible. If not, then it should be easy enough to show from scripture that it's meaning and purpose has been transferred to Sunday from the scriptures themselves. We all know that this cannot be done though.

No one can sanctify Sunday by deciding to keep it as a day of rest. No one can sanctify anything, but God alone. He has sanctified the seventh day, and only He can un-sanctify it, and make another day holy. Neither the Pope or any other human being can do such, without scriptural authority backing them up. It is the man of sin alone that would claim authority to change the commandments of God, spoken by His own mouth to humanity, and written with His own finger in tables of stone for the same. This man of sin has set himself up in the temple of God, the church, as though he is God, claiming authority to abolish and establish commandments of God.

Of course it will not be good enough for this man of sin that people should make their own choice either about this issue, no but he calls for civil legislation supporting his commandment for humanity, meant to replace God's. All should be forced to acknowledge it by human law. As it always has been, which is the exact topic of this thread. 

3.When you give what you think is Catholic teaching can you quote from official Catholic sources.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

I quote from official Catholic sources all the time, just as I have above. The quotes are either ignored, or denied to mean exactly what they are saying. Apart from this, why should all sources other than Catholic, be denied as having any truth? The Catholic church has been found to pass off lies as the truth in the past, has literally murdered countless people in the past that spoke of her as she did not approve regardless of the truth, and burned or otherwise destroyed the writings of many for the same reason. She is not content to allow any to examine evidence and the claims of her opponents for themselves, that they might make up their own minds. Thus she is continually about the work of removing all of the same from public view by whatever means, and trashing the reputation of those who testify against her as nothing but Catholic bashing bigots. 

4.Legally the Ten Commandments, along with the whole of the Jewish Law:
a)  was never applicable to Gentiles
b) was legally abrogated by Christ's death on the cross.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

Of course we do not accept this. Because it is not biblical at all. It is only propagated by those who twist and mutilate the scriptures to their own destruction. The ten commandments are held up as the standard from one end of scripture to the other. Thank you though for more clearly revealing the intentions of the institution of the man of sin. Which is obviously to abrogate the law of God, while exalting their own laws through human legislative process to be forced upon all. So now according to you and your institution the law of God has no authority over humanity other than the Jews, but your day of worship exalted by the man of sin should have authority over and be enforced upon all.

2 Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 ¶  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

What more could be done to set one's self up on the temple of God as though they were God than to trash the law of God and replace it with your own through the force of human legislation? Which as is obvious, is the exact intention of the church of Rome.

I also said
If you want to discuss any of these points I am happy to do that if you:
a) use official Catholic sources (where available)
b) leave off the negative and irrelevant side comments about the Catholic Church.

If you are going to continue making negative and irrelevant side comments about the Catholic Church then I see no point in continuing a discussion with you.
                     
It's up to you. Do you want a sensible and reasoned discussion, or are you just here for Catholic bashing?

The problem with the above of course, is who determines what is simply negative irrelevant Catholic bashing, and what is actually pertinent. Obviously there is a great deal of difference of opinion regarding the same. Though I know you were not specifically addressing me in this post, we are all addressing each other on these web sites.

[winsome]

Yes changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday is on topic. Many of the other things you said were not.

I'm not trying to limit quotes from documents less than 100 years old. Please stop lying about what I said.

To go back to my earlier post
I raised four points and as far as I am concerned we are discussing those. We can move to other points when we have finished with those four.

1.The Catholic Church have not changed the order of the commandments, or left one out.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

Exo 20:1 ¶  And God spake all these words, saying, 2  I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4  Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6  And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7  Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9  Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 ¶  Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13  Thou shalt not kill.
14  Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15  Thou shalt not steal.
16  Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17  Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The above is the scriptural account of what God Himself spoke to Israel as the ten commandments. The following is from the Catechism found at the Vatican's web site.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1 - I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

2 - You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

3 - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.

4 - Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

5 - You shall not kill.

6 -You shall not commit adultery.

7 - You shall not steal.

8 - You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

9 - You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.

10 - You shall not covet ... anything that is your neighbor's....

As is obvious, they are not the same.

2.The Catholic Church has not moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. The Sabbath remains Saturday.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

Catechism of the Catholic Church(Emphasis mine)

The day of the Resurrection: the new creation

2174  Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica)—Sunday: (638, 349)

    We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106

Sunday—fulfillment of the sabbath

2175  Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107 (1166)

    Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108

2176  The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

A day of grace and rest from work

2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"121 human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.122 (2172)

2185  On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.123 Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health. (2428)

The charity of truth seeks holy leisure; the necessity of charity accepts just work.124

2186    Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life. (2447)

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees. (2289)

2188  In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."125 (2105)

IN BRIEF

2189  "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).

2190  The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.

2191  The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).

2192  "Sunday... is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 § 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247).

2193  "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound... to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body" (CIC, can. 1247).

2194  The institution of Sunday helps all "to be allowed sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives" (GS 67 § 3).

2195 Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day


The following quotes are from the APOSTOLIC LETTER DIES DOMINI by John Paul II

14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest because it is the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".

18.................In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

Chap.4
59.......................More than a "replacement" for the Sabbath, therefore, Sunday is its fulfilment, and in a certain sense its extension and full expression in the ordered unfolding of the history of salvation, which reaches its culmination in Christ.


62. It is the duty of Christians therefore to remember that, although the practices of the Jewish Sabbath are gone, surpassed as they are by the "fulfilment" which Sunday brings, the underlying reasons for keeping "the Lord's Day" holy — inscribed solemnly in the Ten Commandments — remain valid, though they need to be reinterpreted in the light of the theology and spirituality of Sunday: "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days you shall labour, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. Then you shall do no work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your servant, or your maid, or your ox, or your ass, or any of your beasts, or the foreigner within your gates, that your servant and maid may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded that you keep the Sabbath day" (Dt 5:12-15). Here the Sabbath observance is closely linked with the liberation which God accomplished for his people.


63. Christ came to accomplish a new "exodus", to restore freedom to the oppressed. He performed many healings on the Sabbath (cf. Mt 12:9-14 and parallels), certainly not to violate the Lord's Day, but to reveal its full meaning: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mk 2:27). Opposing the excessively legalistic interpretation of some of his contemporaries, and developing the true meaning of the biblical Sabbath, Jesus, as "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mk 2:28), restores to the Sabbath observance its liberating character, carefully safeguarding the rights of God and the rights of man. This is why Christians, called as they are to proclaim the liberation won by the blood of Christ, felt that they had the authority to transfer the meaning of the Sabbath to the day of the Resurrection. The Passover of Christ has in fact liberated man from a slavery more radical than any weighing upon an oppressed people — the slavery of sin, which alienates man from God, and alienates man from himself and from others, constantly sowing within history the seeds of evil and violence.

Sorry Winsome, what you say and what the above says seem to be two very different things. If Sunday replaces the seventh day, if the meaning of the Sabbath has been transferred to Sunday, if the practices and observance of the seventh day are gone, being surpassed and fulfilled in Sunday observance, If Sunday is more than a replacement for Sabbath but the fulfillment of it, if it is the day now sanctified by God rather than the seventh day, which by the way scripture says nowhere, then all who believe such have obviously changed the day in their hearts, minds, and thus actions.

All these things are taught by the Catholic church in many more places than just the few examples I have provided above. Your denial is highly suggestive of an institution speaking out of both sides of it's mouth. If the Sabbath remains, then it is to be observed by all who profess to worship the God of the bible. If not, then it should be easy enough to show from scripture that it's meaning and purpose has been transferred to Sunday from the scriptures themselves. We all know that this cannot be done though.

No one can sanctify Sunday by deciding to keep it as a day of rest. No one can sanctify anything, but God alone. He has sanctified the seventh day, and only He can un-sanctify it, and make another day holy. Neither the Pope or any other human being can do such, without scriptural authority backing them up. It is the man of sin alone that would claim authority to change the commandments of God, spoken by His own mouth to humanity, and written with His own finger in tables of stone for the same. This man of sin has set himself up in the temple of God, the church, as though he is God, claiming authority to abolish and establish commandments of God.

Of course it will not be good enough for this man of sin that people should make their own choice either about this issue, no but he calls for civil legislation supporting his commandment for humanity, meant to replace God's. All should be forced to acknowledge it by human law. As it always has been, which is the exact topic of this thread. 

3.When you give what you think is Catholic teaching can you quote from official Catholic sources.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

I quote from official Catholic sources all the time, just as I have above. The quotes are either ignored, or denied to mean exactly what they are saying. Apart from this, why should all sources other than Catholic, be denied as having any truth? The Catholic church has been found to pass off lies as the truth in the past, has literally murdered countless people in the past that spoke of her as she did not approve regardless of the truth, and burned or otherwise destroyed the writings of many for the same reason. She is not content to allow any to examine evidence and the claims of her opponents for themselves, that they might make up their own minds. Thus she is continually about the work of removing all of the same from public view by whatever means, and trashing the reputation of those who testify against her as nothing but Catholic bashing bigots. 

4.Legally the Ten Commandments, along with the whole of the Jewish Law:
a)  was never applicable to Gentiles
b) was legally abrogated by Christ's death on the cross.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

Of course we do not accept this. Because it is not biblical at all. It is only propagated by those who twist and mutilate the scriptures to their own destruction. The ten commandments are held up as the standard from one end of scripture to the other. Thank you though for more clearly revealing the intentions of the institution of the man of sin. Which is obviously to abrogate the law of God, while exalting their own laws through human legislative process to be forced upon all. So now according to you and your institution the law of God has no authority over humanity other than the Jews, but your day of worship exalted by the man of sin should have authority over and be enforced upon all.

2 Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 ¶  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

What more could be done to set one's self up on the temple of God as though they were God than to trash the law of God and replace it with your own through the force of human legislation? Which as is obvious, is the exact intention of the church of Rome.

I also said
If you want to discuss any of these points I am happy to do that if you:
a) use official Catholic sources (where available)
b) leave off the negative and irrelevant side comments about the Catholic Church.

If you are going to continue making negative and irrelevant side comments about the Catholic Church then I see no point in continuing a discussion with you.
                     
It's up to you. Do you want a sensible and reasoned discussion, or are you just here for Catholic bashing?

The problem with the above of course, is who determines what is simply negative irrelevant Catholic bashing, and what is actually pertinent. Obviously there is a great deal of difference of opinion regarding the same. Though I know you were not specifically addressing me in this post, we are all addressing each other on these web sites.

One of my conditions to continue the dialogue with johnm was:

leave off the negative and irrelevant side comments about the Catholic Church.

If you are going to continue making negative and irrelevant side comments about the Catholic Church then I see no point in continuing a discussion with you.

It's up to you. Do you want a sensible and reasoned discussion, or are you just here for Catholic bashing?

I see that you prefer Catholic bashing to a reasoned discussion

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.[/color] (2289)

2188  In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."125 (2105)

IN BRIEF

I only wish such interdict could be delivered upon my neighbour with that pestilence of a barking all day long dog of his!

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

LOOK what the Roman Catholics have done to my Protestant Afrikaans Bible in Colossians 2:16,

"Let no one prescribe to you to keep the Sabbath!"

You think that is gross? Or perhaps cute?

Look what they have done to "nourishment being ministered" in verse 19, "..........." sweet blow NOTHING! THERE'S NOTHING man!!

So?

So, the Lord's Supper in Colossians 2:16 to 19 is being WIPED OUT!

The Lord's supper in Colossians 2 ---HAHAHAHA you must be joking!

Joking?

Read this!

My Afrikaans Bible omits altogether any idea contained in verse 19, "Nourishment being ministered".

The component words making up the Greek term 'epichorehgoumenon' are recognisable in the English, e.g., a 'gourmet meal'. In context of Colossians 2:16-19, "The Lord's Supper".

Follet's Greek Dictionary mentions Horace's 'canis a corio nunquam absterrebitur uncto' from the Doric proverb, 'tis bad to let the dog TASTE LEATHER' ['eat for FOOD, leather' GE] -- 'chalepon CHORIOH kuna geusai'.
'Chorion', 'embrionic sac' like an egg filled with food or 'supply'.
'Chortádzoh' – 'fatten'
'Choreúoh' – 'to feast in honour of the gods'
'Chórtos' – 'eating place'
'Chorós' – 'ring' – 'gathering'
'Choreography' from the 'choréhgos' – some rich person / 'chorón dédohka' – 'leader' / 'chorodidáskalos' – 'teacher' – who paid for FOOD and other needs of 'the train or band' of dancers. Everybody had to dance to the 'choréhgos' step and sing to his tune – hence, 'chorus'.

In Colossians 2:19 Christ is
"the Head ['choréhgos', 'Supplier']
"from whom supplement / gourmet / food / substance ['epichoregóúmenon']
"is being supplied / fed to the Body the Church ['chorus']".
"by joints and bands ['haphóhn kai sundésmohn' // 'chordáí' – 'chords' binding together]

In Colossians 2, verses 16,17 and 18,19 pair in the chiasm, AB-AB

A: "Do not let judge you anyone in eating and drinking of Christ the SUBSTANCE"
B: "Spectre of things coming" [16-17]

A: "Do not let beguile you anyone of your REWARD (Christ the) NOURISHMENT being ministered"
B: "Will grow The Body with the growth of God" [18-19]

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

If that does not prove to you the Roman Catholics and Pentecostal -- modern day 'protestants' aka Roman Catholics -- CHANGED AND CORRUPTED "the day The Seventh Day SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD" INTO SATAN'S DAY and raised Sunday from the pit of the old snake into 'the day of the lord SUN', nothing will, whether you are SDA or SDA foe.

[Amo]

Yes changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday is on topic. Many of the other things you said were not.

I'm not trying to limit quotes from documents less than 100 years old. Please stop lying about what I said.

To go back to my earlier post
I raised four points and as far as I am concerned we are discussing those. We can move to other points when we have finished with those four.

1.The Catholic Church have not changed the order of the commandments, or left one out.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

Exo 20:1 ¶  And God spake all these words, saying, 2  I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4  Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6  And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7  Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9  Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 ¶  Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13  Thou shalt not kill.
14  Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15  Thou shalt not steal.
16  Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17  Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The above is the scriptural account of what God Himself spoke to Israel as the ten commandments. The following is from the Catechism found at the Vatican's web site.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1 - I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

2 - You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

3 - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.

4 - Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

5 - You shall not kill.

6 -You shall not commit adultery.

7 - You shall not steal.

8 - You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

9 - You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.

10 - You shall not covet ... anything that is your neighbor's....

As is obvious, they are not the same.

2.The Catholic Church has not moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. The Sabbath remains Saturday.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

Catechism of the Catholic Church(Emphasis mine)

The day of the Resurrection: the new creation

2174  Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica)—Sunday: (638, 349)

    We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106

Sunday—fulfillment of the sabbath

2175  Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107 (1166)

    Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108

2176  The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

A day of grace and rest from work

2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"121 human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.122 (2172)

2185  On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.123 Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health. (2428)

The charity of truth seeks holy leisure; the necessity of charity accepts just work.124

2186    Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life. (2447)

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees. (2289)

2188  In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."125 (2105)

IN BRIEF

2189  "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).

2190  The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.

2191  The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).

2192  "Sunday... is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 § 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247).

2193  "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound... to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body" (CIC, can. 1247).

2194  The institution of Sunday helps all "to be allowed sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives" (GS 67 § 3).

2195 Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day


The following quotes are from the APOSTOLIC LETTER DIES DOMINI by John Paul II

14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest because it is the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".

18.................In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

Chap.4
59.......................More than a "replacement" for the Sabbath, therefore, Sunday is its fulfilment, and in a certain sense its extension and full expression in the ordered unfolding of the history of salvation, which reaches its culmination in Christ.


62. It is the duty of Christians therefore to remember that, although the practices of the Jewish Sabbath are gone, surpassed as they are by the "fulfilment" which Sunday brings, the underlying reasons for keeping "the Lord's Day" holy — inscribed solemnly in the Ten Commandments — remain valid, though they need to be reinterpreted in the light of the theology and spirituality of Sunday: "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days you shall labour, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. Then you shall do no work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your servant, or your maid, or your ox, or your ass, or any of your beasts, or the foreigner within your gates, that your servant and maid may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded that you keep the Sabbath day" (Dt 5:12-15). Here the Sabbath observance is closely linked with the liberation which God accomplished for his people.


63. Christ came to accomplish a new "exodus", to restore freedom to the oppressed. He performed many healings on the Sabbath (cf. Mt 12:9-14 and parallels), certainly not to violate the Lord's Day, but to reveal its full meaning: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mk 2:27). Opposing the excessively legalistic interpretation of some of his contemporaries, and developing the true meaning of the biblical Sabbath, Jesus, as "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mk 2:28), restores to the Sabbath observance its liberating character, carefully safeguarding the rights of God and the rights of man. This is why Christians, called as they are to proclaim the liberation won by the blood of Christ, felt that they had the authority to transfer the meaning of the Sabbath to the day of the Resurrection. The Passover of Christ has in fact liberated man from a slavery more radical than any weighing upon an oppressed people — the slavery of sin, which alienates man from God, and alienates man from himself and from others, constantly sowing within history the seeds of evil and violence.

Sorry Winsome, what you say and what the above says seem to be two very different things. If Sunday replaces the seventh day, if the meaning of the Sabbath has been transferred to Sunday, if the practices and observance of the seventh day are gone, being surpassed and fulfilled in Sunday observance, If Sunday is more than a replacement for Sabbath but the fulfillment of it, if it is the day now sanctified by God rather than the seventh day, which by the way scripture says nowhere, then all who believe such have obviously changed the day in their hearts, minds, and thus actions.

All these things are taught by the Catholic church in many more places than just the few examples I have provided above. Your denial is highly suggestive of an institution speaking out of both sides of it's mouth. If the Sabbath remains, then it is to be observed by all who profess to worship the God of the bible. If not, then it should be easy enough to show from scripture that it's meaning and purpose has been transferred to Sunday from the scriptures themselves. We all know that this cannot be done though.

No one can sanctify Sunday by deciding to keep it as a day of rest. No one can sanctify anything, but God alone. He has sanctified the seventh day, and only He can un-sanctify it, and make another day holy. Neither the Pope or any other human being can do such, without scriptural authority backing them up. It is the man of sin alone that would claim authority to change the commandments of God, spoken by His own mouth to humanity, and written with His own finger in tables of stone for the same. This man of sin has set himself up in the temple of God, the church, as though he is God, claiming authority to abolish and establish commandments of God.

Of course it will not be good enough for this man of sin that people should make their own choice either about this issue, no but he calls for civil legislation supporting his commandment for humanity, meant to replace God's. All should be forced to acknowledge it by human law. As it always has been, which is the exact topic of this thread. 

3.When you give what you think is Catholic teaching can you quote from official Catholic sources.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

I quote from official Catholic sources all the time, just as I have above. The quotes are either ignored, or denied to mean exactly what they are saying. Apart from this, why should all sources other than Catholic, be denied as having any truth? The Catholic church has been found to pass off lies as the truth in the past, has literally murdered countless people in the past that spoke of her as she did not approve regardless of the truth, and burned or otherwise destroyed the writings of many for the same reason. She is not content to allow any to examine evidence and the claims of her opponents for themselves, that they might make up their own minds. Thus she is continually about the work of removing all of the same from public view by whatever means, and trashing the reputation of those who testify against her as nothing but Catholic bashing bigots. 

4.Legally the Ten Commandments, along with the whole of the Jewish Law:
a)  was never applicable to Gentiles
b) was legally abrogated by Christ's death on the cross.

Do you accept this or not?
If not why not?

Of course we do not accept this. Because it is not biblical at all. It is only propagated by those who twist and mutilate the scriptures to their own destruction. The ten commandments are held up as the standard from one end of scripture to the other. Thank you though for more clearly revealing the intentions of the institution of the man of sin. Which is obviously to abrogate the law of God, while exalting their own laws through human legislative process to be forced upon all. So now according to you and your institution the law of God has no authority over humanity other than the Jews, but your day of worship exalted by the man of sin should have authority over and be enforced upon all.

2 Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 ¶  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

What more could be done to set one's self up on the temple of God as though they were God than to trash the law of God and replace it with your own through the force of human legislation? Which as is obvious, is the exact intention of the church of Rome.

I also said
If you want to discuss any of these points I am happy to do that if you:
a) use official Catholic sources (where available)
b) leave off the negative and irrelevant side comments about the Catholic Church.

If you are going to continue making negative and irrelevant side comments about the Catholic Church then I see no point in continuing a discussion with you.
                     
It's up to you. Do you want a sensible and reasoned discussion, or are you just here for Catholic bashing?

The problem with the above of course, is who determines what is simply negative irrelevant Catholic bashing, and what is actually pertinent. Obviously there is a great deal of difference of opinion regarding the same. Though I know you were not specifically addressing me in this post, we are all addressing each other on these web sites.

One of my conditions to continue the dialogue with johnm was:

leave off the negative and irrelevant side comments about the Catholic Church.

If you are going to continue making negative and irrelevant side comments about the Catholic Church then I see no point in continuing a discussion with you.

It's up to you. Do you want a sensible and reasoned discussion, or are you just here for Catholic bashing?

I see that you prefer Catholic bashing to a reasoned discussion

A reasoned discussion requires discussion. Ignoring everything someone says and all the official Roman Catholic material they quote relevant to the same, with the one sentence answer of you are Catholic bashing, is not discussing anything. You are the one who will not have a discussion unless the said discussion is controlled and monitored by the parameters of your own design. Not to worry, you and yours are developing the proper political and legislative atmosphere to once again have such control, at least by the support of government and human law, though not by the individual conscience. I really do wish you and yours would reconsider, the end of such things will not be well. They were not well the first time around, and they will end unimaginably more horribly the second time around.

Let the gospel do it's work, and leave the political and legislative processes of this world alone. You cannot cleanse them. They will, have, and only will continue to corrupt you. You cannot be a friend of this world in any other way than sharing the gospel with it, without becoming the enemy of God.

Jas 4:1 ¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. 4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

The end does not justify the means. Using the means of this world corrupts all who participate in the same. Making them the enemy of God. We must choose which kingdom we are of, and proceed as citizens of the same.

Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

If we are Christ's, then we do not use the methods of this world. Enlisting the aid of human legislation to force what we deem to be Christ's upon all, is not from above but from beneath. Christ could have easily established such. He did not, nor did He command His followers to do so either. These are the methods of the prince of the powers of this earth, not God's.

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[DaveW]

If that does not prove to you the Roman Catholics and Pentecostal -- modern day 'protestants' aka Roman Catholics -- CHANGED AND CORRUPTED "the day The Seventh Day SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD" INTO SATAN'S DAY and raised Sunday from the pit of the old snake into 'the day of the lord SUN', nothing will, whether you are SDA or SDA foe.

You do realize that Rev Miller and even the young Ms White were Sunday keepers prior to her vision, right?

[DaveW]

Dave you are a skilled apologist, so skilled has apologetics become there should be a place for it in the Olympic Games; tuning a lie into a perceived truth, neutralising the truth by confusion; for the last ten years I have been watching politicians do this. What the Catholic teaches seems to variy from person to person and from time to time.

Interesting.  I am "apologist" for the Catholic Church?  Since when?

I will submit that to TRUE catholics Winsome and Catholica:  When have I ever spoken on behalf of or been an apologist for the RCC?

I humbly apologise; from the rest of my post you should have realised that I was referring to winsome/lose some.

Apology accepted.  And since you were saying that I was an apologist, I was not sure on the rest if it was addressed to me or not.  [my bad]

But to be honest, I do find myself at times arguing FOR the Catholic point of view. (but not too often)  Something I was not thinking about when I wrote that.  [again, my bad]

[DaveW]

The clearest and incontrovertible evidence that the Roman Catholic church has successfully changed the Sabbath from the Sabbath to Sunday is the billions of CORRUPTED TEXT New Testaments in people's possession today.

Um - today's NT translations come from manuscripts that predate the RCC. That organization did not exist before 1050 ad. 

I think you mean the Greek Orthodox Church. They predated the RCC.

[winsome]

The clearest and incontrovertible evidence that the Roman Catholic church has successfully changed the Sabbath from the Sabbath to Sunday is the billions of CORRUPTED TEXT New Testaments in people's possession today.

Um - today's NT translations come from manuscripts that predate the RCC. That organization did not exist before 1050 ad. 

I think you mean the Greek Orthodox Church. They predated the RCC.

Catholics and Orthodox both go back to the apostles.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

You do realize that Rev Miller and even the young Ms White were Sunday keepers prior to her vision, right?

What has that to do with me?

I am no SDA nor am I RC;

I am a Calvinist --- one who does not believe in Sunday; for I am a Calvinist who do not worship Calvin but respect him as he should be respected for not having been a Sunday believer like the Protestants around him.

I am -- humble thanks to God -- of 'Sabbaths' Feast of Christ Home Assemblies Reformed Protestant Faith'.

O come let us adore Him!

... or better say nothing.

[Amo]

If that does not prove to you the Roman Catholics and Pentecostal -- modern day 'protestants' aka Roman Catholics -- CHANGED AND CORRUPTED "the day The Seventh Day SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD" INTO SATAN'S DAY and raised Sunday from the pit of the old snake into 'the day of the lord SUN', nothing will, whether you are SDA or SDA foe.

You do realize that Rev Miller and even the young Ms White were Sunday keepers prior to her vision, right?

If you are speaking William Miller who gave the 1844 return of Christ message, he never was an SDA, nor do I believe a proponent of keeping the seventh day Sabbath. I'll have to look into it, but I believe the Whites began keeping the seventh day Sabbath before she ever had a vision pertaining to it. As many others of the time also did according to the testimony of those who shared this biblical truth with them.

[DaveW]

If you are speaking William Miller who gave the 1844 return of Christ message, he never was an SDA, nor do I believe a proponent of keeping the seventh day Sabbath. I'll have to look into it, but I believe the Whites began keeping the seventh day Sabbath before she ever had a vision pertaining to it. As many others of the time also did according to the testimony of those who shared this biblical truth with them.

The Whites were avid "Millerites;" the followers of W. Miller who was a Methodist Episcopal evangelist of the Wesleyan Holiness movement. So no - they were NOT SDA proper. It was Ellen White's distress following Miller's 2nd failed date (Miller slipped into a profound depression) that she had the vision. The SDA broke away from the Methodist church following those events.

My dad (ordained in the Wesleyan Methodist denom) did a lot of study of their history in the official archives at Andrews University - a major SDA seminary. His research did not show any interest in Saturday sabbath keeping before her vision.

[johnm]

<<If you are speaking William Miller who gave the 1844 return of Christ message, he never was an SDA, nor do I believe a proponent of keeping the seventh day Sabbath. I'll have to look into it, but I believe the Whites began keeping the seventh day Sabbath before she ever had a vision pertaining to it. As many others of the time also did according to the testimony of those who shared this biblical truth with them.>>

I haven't heard of Ellen White having a vision before; the account that I have heard of after 1844, Miller started his own church and these were referred to as Millerites, Ellen White and her friends, most were mostly Methodists and there were a few Puritans, started a Sunday church the name of which required two or three lines to write. Later Ellen White read a book written by a lady from the Seventh Day Baptists and after White and her friends studied the Seventh day, they adopted it and changed their name to SDA.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

If you are speaking William Miller who gave the 1844 return of Christ message, he never was an SDA, nor do I believe a proponent of keeping the seventh day Sabbath. I'll have to look into it, but I believe the Whites began keeping the seventh day Sabbath before she ever had a vision pertaining to it. As many others of the time also did according to the testimony of those who shared this biblical truth with them.

What do you mean by <<this biblical truth>>?

<<1844>>?

Amazing ....

[DaveW]

I haven't heard of Ellen White having a vision before; the account that I have heard of after 1844, Miller started his own church and these were referred to as Millerites,

The Millerites were Rev Miller's followers prior to 1844.  He had set a day for the Lord's return.  That day in 1844 came and went.  So Miller went back to his calculations and decided he was off by 1 year. So the day in 1845 came and went. Miller became extremely confused and depressed. Ms White who was an avid follower and some counts say a personal friend started praying and fasting for an answer from God on what had happened. 

Then she had a vision, the first of several.  In it she saw that Miller's original date was correct but it was not the Lord's return to earth but his moving from the heavenly throne room (at the Father's right hand) to the inner sanctuary with the ark of the covenant.  She saw the top lifted off and the stone tablets of Moses lifted out, and a spotlight fell on the 4th command - to keep the Sabbath holy. (all from my dad's research)

My SDA friends who are more familiar with Ms White's writings than I am can give the proper reference in her writings.

[Amo]

If you are speaking William Miller who gave the 1844 return of Christ message, he never was an SDA, nor do I believe a proponent of keeping the seventh day Sabbath. I'll have to look into it, but I believe the Whites began keeping the seventh day Sabbath before she ever had a vision pertaining to it. As many others of the time also did according to the testimony of those who shared this biblical truth with them.

The Whites were avid "Millerites;" the followers of W. Miller who was a Methodist Episcopal evangelist of the Wesleyan Holiness movement. So no - they were NOT SDA proper. It was Ellen White's distress following Miller's 2nd failed date (Miller slipped into a profound depression) that she had the vision. The SDA broke away from the Methodist church following those events.

My dad (ordained in the Wesleyan Methodist denom) did a lot of study of their history in the official archives at Andrews University - a major SDA seminary. His research did not show any interest in Saturday sabbath keeping before her vision.

The following can be viewed at - http://www.whiteestate.org/pathways/wmiller.asp

William Miller
1782 - 1849

Miller was a farmer, justice of the peace, sheriff, and Baptist preacher, who, from 1831 to 1844, preached the immanent return of Christ. He was born in Pittsfield, Massachusetts. His mother was a deeply religious person, and his father a soldier. Probably as a result, there was tension in his early life between patriotism and religious belief. He was largely self-educated, attending school only for three months each winter between ages 9 and 14.

As a young man, Miller was influenced by reading and association to become a deist. This is a belief that God made the world and then abandoned it to run according to certain natural laws. Miller volunteered for service in the War of 1812, and while in service saw evidences that there was a God, after all, who intervenes in human affairs. After the war he was converted and began a systematic study of the Bible to find answers to his former questions. In the process he discovered the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, especially Daniel 8, which seemed to predict that Christ would soon return to earth. He finally established through the process of applying the Bible principle of a day for a year in prophecy, that Jesus would come a second time "about the year 1843."

Miller began preaching in small towns at first, and then, with the help of Joshua Himes, moved to the larger cities, bringing his second advent message to many thousands. Hundreds of ministers and laymen joined in preaching the message. By the expected time for Christ's return, Miller had between 50,000 to 100,000 followers, commonly known as Millerites. He did not set a specific date for the second advent. At first he said only that it would be "about 1843." He finally set an ultimate time in the spring of 1844. Others picked the more precise date of October 22, 1844, which Miller and many of the leaders of the first movement accepted shortly before the date arrived.

Many clergymen joined Miller in his preaching. At the same time, he was greatly opposed by others. So much so, that in the final months, most churches were closed to the second advent preaching, and many of those who accepted the message were put out of their churches.

Ellen White has written positively about Miller in The Great Controversy and elsewhere. She heard him preach, and accepted his teachings, going through the disappointment at age 16. She believed that his preaching fulfilled the prophecies of Scripture, and saw him being guided by the Lord.

Miller never accepted advancing understanding of the disappointment. Ellen White wrote: "I saw that William Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan, in suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this; others must account for it. But angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump."--Early Writings, p. 258.

After the disappointment of October 22, he wrote: "Although I have been twice disappointed, I am not yet cast down or discouraged. . . . I have fixed my mind upon another time, and here I mean to stand until God gives me more light,--and that is Today, TODAY, and TODAY, until He comes, and I see Him for whom my soul yearns."--The Midnight Cry, Dec. 5, 1844, pp. 179, 180.

The following concerning Ellen Whites acceptance of the seventh day Sabbath can be viewed at - http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=1BIO&lang=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=116 QUERY=introduced+the+Sabbath&resultId=6

Ellen G. White: Volume 1—The Early Years: 1827-1862, By Arthur L. White, Page 116&17

For a few weeks prior to this trip to Massachusetts, James and Ellen had been observing the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath. Of this she wrote:

In the autumn of 1846 we began to observe the Bible Sabbath, and to teach and defend it.—Testimonies for the Church, 1:75.

Reference has been made to her negative reaction when earlier in the year, Joseph Bates introduced the Sabbath to her. Bates had taken his stand in 1845, having had his attention called to it through an article in The Hope of Israel, written by T. M. Preble. A man of conviction and action, Bates in turn prepared a forty-eight-page pamphlet, which he published in August, 1846, under the title The Seventh-day Sabbath a Perpetual Sign From the Beginning to the Entering Into the Gates of the Holy City According to the Commandment. James White took a copy home with him after the funeral service he conducted at Falmouth. As he and Ellen studied the Biblical evidences for the sacredness of the seventh day, they took their stand and began to teach it as they met with their fellow Adventists. At this time there were about fifty Sabbathkeepers in New England and New York State (Ibid., 1:77). Years later Ellen White recalled what taking this step meant:

The light upon the fourth commandment, which was new and unpopular and generally rejected by our Adventist brethren and sisters, we had accepted. If we had trials and difficulties before this in accepting the message that the Lord would soon come the second time to our world with power and great glory, we found that accepting new and advanced truth brought us into positions of still greater difficulty. It brought down upon us not only the opposition of the Christian world who refused to believe in the Lord's soon coming, but opposition unexpectedly came upon us from those with whom we had been united in the faith and glorious hope of the second advent of our Saviour. In the place of closely investigating the Scriptures as did the noble Bereans to see if these things were so, there were those with whom we had taken sweet counsel together who denounced the third angel's message as heresy.—Manuscript 76, 1886.

As James and Ellen White made their trip to Massachusetts they undoubtedly spent time with Bates, reviewing their experience and the sound basis for the step they had so recently taken.


The Whites accepted the Sabbath truth, based upon biblical studies, before ever having any vision pertaining to it.

[Amo]

I haven't heard of Ellen White having a vision before; the account that I have heard of after 1844, Miller started his own church and these were referred to as Millerites,

The Millerites were Rev Miller's followers prior to 1844.  He had set a day for the Lord's return.  That day in 1844 came and went.  So Miller went back to his calculations and decided he was off by 1 year. So the day in 1845 came and went. Miller became extremely confused and depressed. Ms White who was an avid follower and some counts say a personal friend started praying and fasting for an answer from God on what had happened. 

Then she had a vision, the first of several.  In it she saw that Miller's original date was correct but it was not the Lord's return to earth but his moving from the heavenly throne room (at the Father's right hand) to the inner sanctuary with the ark of the covenant.  She saw the top lifted off and the stone tablets of Moses lifted out, and a spotlight fell on the 4th command - to keep the Sabbath holy. (all from my dad's research)

My SDA friends who are more familiar with Ms White's writings than I am can give the proper reference in her writings.

It was actually a man by the name of Hiram Edson that first received a revelation concerning the true meaning of the cleansing of the sanctuary. Miller assumed the sanctuary to represent the earth, and the cleansing of it to be the cleansing of this earth by fire at the second coming of Christ. Thus the 1844 prediction of Christ's return. After the prediction failed, many still sought the true meaning of the prophecy concerning the cleansing of the sanctuary found in the book of Daniel. Hiram Edson claimed to receive an answer from God, while contemplating the same. Millers mistake was assuming the sanctuary represented the earth, Hiram Edson was directed to the heavenly sanctuary for the correct answer and interpretation regarding the prophecy. Ellen White later had visions regarding the same, but she did not introduce this truth.

As already examined also, The Whites were keeping the seventh day Sabbath by way of conviction concerning the scriptures before she ever had a vision pertaining to it also. While many presume that Ellen White introduced most of the more unique aspects of the Seventh Day Adventist church, the truth is, she introduced very little if anything that was not already believed by others before her. Her gift was more of a confirming testimony, than an original testimony of doctrine or belief. Most of what SDA's believe was and has been believed by countless Christians before us.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

"His Name is The Most Holy Place" : Jesus Christ "being rested up again" from his DEATH'S FAST, that is, Jesus Christ RAISED UP "from the dead, from death, and from the grave and the darkness of it.

That - "this Jesus whom God raised Christ and Lord" - is the Sanctuary and the Truth of the Sanctuary : CLEANSED!

He is in heaven now : OUR SANCTUARY, our PLACE OF REFUGE, communing, interceding, with God our Father on the SAINTS behalf. 

[Amo]

"His Name is The Most Holy Place" : Jesus Christ "being rested up again" from his DEATH'S FAST, that is, Jesus Christ RAISED UP "from the dead, from death, and from the grave and the darkness of it.

That - "this Jesus whom God raised Christ and Lord" - is the Sanctuary and the Truth of the Sanctuary : CLEANSED!

He is in heaven now : OUR SANCTUARY, our PLACE OF REFUGE, communing, interceding, with God our Father on the SAINTS behalf.

That Christ is the epicenter of all the sanctuary entails and represents, does not negate the scriptural testimony that there is a heavenly sanctuary, where the cleansing of sin is officiated. Christ does not, nor has He ever needed cleansing. We do. This is what Christ and His sanctuary are all about. Christ and His followers are the sanctuary or temple of God on earth, bringing the gospel and therefore salvation to the same. This process involves the cleansing of those giving the gospel to the world, and those receiving the same.

Eph 2:19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The sanctuary or temple of God is in heaven where Christ ever liveth to intercede for His own, and on earth where Christ dwells within the believer to draw all humanity unto Himself. The things of heaven need no cleansing, it is us, the followers of Christ that need His cleansing and transforming power continually. This is to say just a little about a very very deep subject.

[DaveW]

It was actually a man by the name of Hiram Edson that first received a revelation concerning the true meaning of the cleansing of the sanctuary. Miller assumed the sanctuary to represent the earth, and the cleansing of it to be the cleansing of this earth by fire at the second coming of Christ. Thus the 1844 prediction of Christ's return. After the prediction failed, many still sought the true meaning of the prophecy concerning the cleansing of the sanctuary found in the book of Daniel. Hiram Edson claimed to receive an answer from God, while contemplating the same. Millers mistake was assuming the sanctuary represented the earth, Hiram Edson was directed to the heavenly sanctuary for the correct answer and interpretation regarding the prophecy. Ellen White later had visions regarding the same, but she did not introduce this truth.

As already examined also, The Whites were keeping the seventh day Sabbath by way of conviction concerning the scriptures before she ever had a vision pertaining to it also. While many presume that Ellen White introduced most of the more unique aspects of the Seventh Day Adventist church, the truth is, she introduced very little if anything that was not already believed by others before her. Her gift was more of a confirming testimony, than an original testimony of doctrine or belief. Most of what SDA's believe was and has been believed by countless Christians before us.

Very interesting.  Thanks Amo!

I am very aware that many of the SDA unique positions were those of the Sect of the Nazarenes (Messianic Jews) of the 3rd and 4th centuries, and that church historian Eusubius (writing circa ad300) declared them heretics along with the Ebionites (who actually WERE heretics) and hence the Nazarenes were not invited to the first Nicean council of 325.

[Amo]

It was actually a man by the name of Hiram Edson that first received a revelation concerning the true meaning of the cleansing of the sanctuary. Miller assumed the sanctuary to represent the earth, and the cleansing of it to be the cleansing of this earth by fire at the second coming of Christ. Thus the 1844 prediction of Christ's return. After the prediction failed, many still sought the true meaning of the prophecy concerning the cleansing of the sanctuary found in the book of Daniel. Hiram Edson claimed to receive an answer from God, while contemplating the same. Millers mistake was assuming the sanctuary represented the earth, Hiram Edson was directed to the heavenly sanctuary for the correct answer and interpretation regarding the prophecy. Ellen White later had visions regarding the same, but she did not introduce this truth.

As already examined also, The Whites were keeping the seventh day Sabbath by way of conviction concerning the scriptures before she ever had a vision pertaining to it also. While many presume that Ellen White introduced most of the more unique aspects of the Seventh Day Adventist church, the truth is, she introduced very little if anything that was not already believed by others before her. Her gift was more of a confirming testimony, than an original testimony of doctrine or belief. Most of what SDA's believe was and has been believed by countless Christians before us.

Very interesting.  Thanks Amo!Do you know

I am very aware that many of the SDA unique positions were those of the Sect of the Nazarenes (Messianic Jews) of the 3rd and 4th centuries, and that church historian Eusubius (writing circa ad300) declared them heretics along with the Ebionites (who actually WERE heretics) and hence the Nazarenes were not invited to the first Nicean council of 325.

Your welcome. Never heard the above about the Nazarenes. Thanks for that interesting tidbit. Where can one read up on their beliefs apart from Eusubius' condemnation of them. I'm sure they were better off for not being at the council and part of where it and all the councils of the "official" church lead.

[DaveW]

Actually Eusubius is a good source.  Before he lumps them in with the Ebionites and condemns both groups; he makes some very positive comments about the Nazarenes.  His ONLY criticism of them (and apparently the big deal breaker) was that they still worshiped on Saturday and did not eat pork and visibly looked and acted like Jews. (an unforgivable sin apparently....)   Of course they WERE Jews, but apparently that only made things worse.

For JEWS to believe in the trinity, to take communion, to accept the death and resurrection of the Lord for salvation, to baptize their new believers and to preach the gospel was just WRONG in his opinion.

Of course that excluded them from fellowship from the church world.  As believers in Yeshua/Jesus they were not welcome in traditional Jewish society either.  They died out toward the end of the 4th century.

Beyond that, I would suggest contacting one of the Messianic groups' theological boards.  I know the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC.org) and the Messianic Jewish Alliance (MJAA.org) both have them.  Or you can contact the Messianic Jewish Theological Institute.

Rabbi Dan Juster headed up the UMJC theo board for several years and has said that the decision to exclude us from the Nicean council resulted in the wording of the doctrine of the trinity that seems engineered to repel Jews that may have been curious.

[johnm]

<<The Millerites were Rev Miller's followers prior to 1844.  He had set a day for the Lord's return.  That day in 1844 came and went.  So Miller went back to his calculations and decided he was off by 1 year. So the day in 1845 came and went. Miller became extremely confused and depressed. Ms White who was an avid follower and some counts say a personal friend started praying and fasting for an answer from God on what had happened>>

My info from SDA sources 25 years ago was that the Millerites were almost extinct but still had one congregation active; a vague memory tells me it may have bee a seminary.

[Amo]

Actually Eusubius is a good source.  Before he lumps them in with the Ebionites and condemns both groups; he makes some very positive comments about the Nazarenes.  His ONLY criticism of them (and apparently the big deal breaker) was that they still worshiped on Saturday and did not eat pork and visibly looked and acted like Jews. (an unforgivable sin apparently....)   Of course they WERE Jews, but apparently that only made things worse.

For JEWS to believe in the trinity, to take communion, to accept the death and resurrection of the Lord for salvation, to baptize their new believers and to preach the gospel was just WRONG in his opinion.

Of course that excluded them from fellowship from the church world.  As believers in Yeshua/Jesus they were not welcome in traditional Jewish society either.  They died out toward the end of the 4th century.

Beyond that, I would suggest contacting one of the Messianic groups' theological boards.  I know the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC.org) and the Messianic Jewish Alliance (MJAA.org) both have them.  Or you can contact the Messianic Jewish Theological Institute.

Rabbi Dan Juster headed up the UMJC theo board for several years and has said that the decision to exclude us from the Nicean council resulted in the wording of the doctrine of the trinity that seems engineered to repel Jews that may have been curious.

Thanks.

[Amo]

<<The Millerites were Rev Miller's followers prior to 1844.  He had set a day for the Lord's return.  That day in 1844 came and went.  So Miller went back to his calculations and decided he was off by 1 year. So the day in 1845 came and went. Miller became extremely confused and depressed. Ms White who was an avid follower and some counts say a personal friend started praying and fasting for an answer from God on what had happened>>

My info from SDA sources 25 years ago was that the Millerites were almost extinct but still had one congregation active; a vague memory tells me it may have bee a seminary.

I thought all Millerites were gone long ago.

[johnm]

<<I thought all Millerites were gone long ago.>>

I only knew a small group of SDAs and I only remember a conversation but not who provided the information. Shopping around the internet I found the following on an Atheist Site, I can only guess how accurate it is:

"The Millerite movement began splintering into sects as the debate raged, and soon had all but run out of steam. Miller himself died in 1849, insisting to the end that the Second Coming was imminent.

Following such a catastrophic failure, one might expect that the Millerite movement would fade away entirely. But that is not what happened. Although the fragmented Millerites languished for some time, and though many did abandon the movement, several of the competing splinter groups would ultimately gain new life. Hiram Edson's sect, the one which claimed Jesus' return was heavenly rather than earthly, developed into a denomination that still exists – the Seventh-Day Adventists, who today number as many as 15 million members worldwide. The Adventists claim that Jesus' 1844 entry into the "heavenly sanctuary" was the beginning of a still-ongoing process of "investigative judgment" of the souls of believers. They continue to claim that the literal Second Coming is imminent, though they no longer attempt to set dates.

The Advent Christian Church, another modern denomination, arose from a different Millerite splinter group. Another former Millerite, Charles Taze Russell, would carry forward his Miller-inspired beliefs about the imminent end-times into a new sect that he founded: the Watchtower (named after their monthly magazine), known today as the Jehovah's Witnesses. And last but not least, a small splinter group of fundamentalist Adventists led by a preacher named Victor Houteff split from the main church in 1934, and relocated to Waco, Texas, where they formed a community. They would later rename themselves the Davidian Seventh-day Adventists, and then the Branch Davidians... and when a charismatic preacher calling himself David Koresh gained control of the group, the rest is history."

[Amo]

<<I thought all Millerites were gone long ago.>>

I only knew a small group of SDAs and I only remember a conversation but not who provided the information. Shopping around the internet I found the following on an Atheist Site, I can only guess how accurate it is:

"The Millerite movement began splintering into sects as the debate raged, and soon had all but run out of steam. Miller himself died in 1849, insisting to the end that the Second Coming was imminent.

Following such a catastrophic failure, one might expect that the Millerite movement would fade away entirely. But that is not what happened. Although the fragmented Millerites languished for some time, and though many did abandon the movement, several of the competing splinter groups would ultimately gain new life. Hiram Edson's sect, the one which claimed Jesus' return was heavenly rather than earthly, developed into a denomination that still exists – the Seventh-Day Adventists, who today number as many as 15 million members worldwide. The Adventists claim that Jesus' 1844 entry into the "heavenly sanctuary" was the beginning of a still-ongoing process of "investigative judgment" of the souls of believers. They continue to claim that the literal Second Coming is imminent, though they no longer attempt to set dates.

The Advent Christian Church, another modern denomination, arose from a different Millerite splinter group. Another former Millerite, Charles Taze Russell, would carry forward his Miller-inspired beliefs about the imminent end-times into a new sect that he founded: the Watchtower (named after their monthly magazine), known today as the Jehovah's Witnesses. And last but not least, a small splinter group of fundamentalist Adventists led by a preacher named Victor Houteff split from the main church in 1934, and relocated to Waco, Texas, where they formed a community. They would later rename themselves the Davidian Seventh-day Adventists, and then the Branch Davidians... and when a charismatic preacher calling himself David Koresh gained control of the group, the rest is history."

Interesting. I met David Koresh. He was definitely a cult leader. After some back and forth at a meeting he was having at an SDA church,which he lied to the pastor about concerning what he would be discussing, I narrowed things down and asked him some revealing questions. I asked him if he was saying we needed to forget everything we thought we knew or had learned from studying the scriptures and listen only to him, surprisingly, he admitted the truth and said yes. He would not answer my next question though, even after asking it three times. I asked him if he was saying he wad the Lord Jesus Christ. After asking him three times without getting an answer, I stood up to leave and advised all others to do the same since the man speaking would not say that he was not the Lord Jesus Christ. Some left with me, others stayed. One of them perished in the fire at Koresh's compound. A sad day.

[Amo]

We seem to be wondering quite a bit from the original topic. Here is another site concerning recent developments about the topic of this thread.

http://www.uniglobalunion.org/news/european-sunday-alliance-calls-meps-promote-a-work-free-sunday-and-decent-work-eu-legislation

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

The Advent Christian Church, another modern denomination, arose from a different Millerite splinter group. Another former Millerite, Charles Taze Russell, would carry forward his Miller-inspired beliefs about the imminent end-times into a new sect that he founded: the Watchtower (named after their monthly magazine), known today as the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I was surprised to hear on 'Classic FM' a radio station in South Africa, in its daily early quiz for listeners, 'The Watchtower Magazine', is the 'periodical' most copies are cycled of in the world --- more than any news paper or whatever.

I heard another story that its founder was no 'believer', but thought he would make money with his 'magazine'. Although the magazine is not sold, it seems its founder had the right idea.

[johnm]

My experience with Jehovah Witnesses is they really believe they are good Christians and I feel confident that their righteousness is greater than that of the Pharisees but their righteousness may not be the righteousness of God.

To get back on topic they do not keep any specific day Holy.