Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism

[Amo]

http://strangeside.com/sunday-rest-laws/

http://en.idi.org.il/analysis/articles/should-sunday-be-a-day-of-rest-in-israel-an-interview-with-dr-arye-carmon


Interesting Jewish perspective of the matter at hand.

[Amo]

http://www.poandpo.com/politics/hungarian-lawmakers-to-vote-on-sunday-shopping-ban-7-11-2014/

http://dailynewshungary.com/christian-democrats-govt-supports-restrictions-on-sunday-opening-times/


More recent developments concerning the issue at hand.

[Amo]

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmilano.repubblica.it%2Fcronaca%2F2014%2F12%2F04%2Fnews%2Fscola_bacchetta_i_commercianti_il_riposo_domenicale_sacro_non_cediamo_al_consumismo-102131390%2F&edit-text=&act=url

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinmordaza.com%2Fnoticia%2F276102-la-ley-de-descanso-dominical-fue-promulgada.html

[Amo]

The Pope and the EU -

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/11/24/eu_diplomat_to_holy_see_pope_francis_is_a_respected_voice/1112225?utm_source=KTF+Insider&utm_campaign=3eda55b4b3-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_79e2854feb-3eda55b4b3-49835953

[sacredagent777]

Amo- Thank you very much for these weekly updates. I look forward to them and use them as reminders of the fulfillment of prophecy. "Get ready, get ready, get ready".

[Amo]

Your welcome. It doesn't usually take more than a little time spent on a search engine using a handful of key words. Please do add any pertinent info. or articles you might come by. Happy Sabbath.

[Amo]

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/12/10/hungary-retail-idUSL6N0TH1SM20141210

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmilano.repubblica.it%2Fcronaca%2F2014%2F12%2F04%2Fnews%2Fscola_bacchetta_i_commercianti_il_riposo_domenicale_sacro_non_cediamo_al_consumismo-102131390%2F&edit-text=&act=url


According to the second article above, I guess all those who appose or would not submit to Rome's Sunday rest, are narcissistic individualists. Is this not Rome claiming the position of God Himself? What is sin but the breaking of God's commandments by selfish sinners who believe themselves to be above God and thus decide against His laws? So also are all those who would appose Rome's self appointed day of rest.

2Th 3 ¶  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[grahame]

Seventh Day churches and sunday christian churches in Tonga and Samoa all go to church on sunday .
Because of the international date line it is impossible to know for sure what day it is. 

[grahame]

Seventh Day churches and sunday christian churches in Tonga and Samoa all go to church on sunday .
Because of the international date line it is impossible to know for sure what day it is. 

[HRoberson]

How do they know it's Sunday?

[Amo]

Seventh Day churches and sunday christian churches in Tonga and Samoa all go to church on sunday .
Because of the international date line it is impossible to know for sure what day it is.

If they know when sunrise and sunset take place, then they can know which day is the seventh day.

[Amo]

Excerpts from
ENCYCLICAL LETTER
LAUDATO SI'
OF THE HOLY FATHER
FRANCIS
ON CARE FOR OUR COMMON HOME

237. On Sunday, our participation in the Eucharist has special importance. Sunday, like the Jewish Sabbath, is meant to be a day which heals our relationships with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world. Sunday is the day of the Resurrection, the "first day" of the new creation, whose first fruits are the Lord's risen humanity, the pledge of the final transfiguration of all created reality. It also proclaims "man's eternal rest in God".[168] In this way, Christian spirituality incorporates the value of relaxation and festivity. We tend to demean contemplative rest as something unproductive and unnecessary, but this is to do away with the very thing which is most important about work: its meaning. We are called to include in our work a dimension of receptivity and gratuity, which is quite different from mere inactivity. Rather, it is another way of working, which forms part of our very essence. It protects human action from becoming empty activism; it also prevents that unfettered greed and sense of isolation which make us seek personal gain to the detriment of all else. The law of weekly rest forbade work on the seventh day, "so that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your maidservant, and the stranger, may be refreshed" (Ex 23:12). Rest opens our eyes to the larger picture and gives us renewed sensitivity to the rights of others. And so the day of rest, centred on the Eucharist, sheds it light on the whole week, and motivates us to greater concern for nature and the poor.

VIII. QUEEN OF ALL CREATION

241. Mary, the Mother who cared for Jesus, now cares with maternal affection and pain for this wounded world. Just as her pierced heart mourned the death of Jesus, so now she grieves for the sufferings of the crucified poor and for the creatures of this world laid waste by human power. Completely transfigured, she now lives with Jesus, and all creatures sing of her fairness. She is the Woman, "clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (Rev 12:1). Carried up into heaven, she is the Mother and Queen of all creation. In her glorified body, together with the Risen Christ, part of creation has reached the fullness of its beauty. She treasures the entire life of Jesus in her heart (cf. Lk 2:19,51), and now understands the meaning of all things. Hence, we can ask her to enable us to look at this world with eyes of wisdom.

242. At her side in the Holy Family of Nazareth, stands the figure of Saint Joseph. Through his work and generous presence, he cared for and defended Mary and Jesus, delivering them from the violence of the unjust by bringing them to Egypt. The Gospel presents Joseph as a just man, hard-working and strong. But he also shows great tenderness, which is not a mark of the weak but of those who are genuinely strong, fully aware of reality and ready to love and serve in humility. That is why he was proclaimed custodian of the universal Church. He too can teach us how to show care; he can inspire us to work with generosity and tenderness in protecting this world which God has entrusted to us.

The Great Controversy 1888, Page 587-589

It is one of Satan's devices to combine with falsehood just enough truth to give it plausibility. The leaders of the Sunday movement may advocate reforms which the people need, principles which are in harmony with the Bible, yet while there is with these a requirement which is contrary to God's law, his servants cannot unite with them. Nothing can justify them in setting aside the commandments of God for the precepts of men.

Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul, and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of Spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.

As Spiritualism more closely imitates the nominal Christianity of the day, it has greater power to deceive and ensnare. Satan himself is converted, after the modern order of things. He will appear in the character of an angel of light. Through the agency of Spiritualism, miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and many undeniable wonders will be performed. And as the spirits will profess faith in the Bible, and manifest respect for the institutions of the church, their work will be accepted as a manifestation of divine power.

The line of distinction between professed Christians and the ungodly is now hardly distinguishable. Church-members love what the world loves, and are ready to join with them; and Satan determines to unite them in one body, and thus strengthen his cause by sweeping all into the ranks of Spiritualism. Papists, who boast of miracles as a certain sign of the true church, will be readily deceived by this wonder-working power; and Protestants, having cast away the shield of truth, will also be deluded. Papists, Protestants, and worldlings will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world, and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium.

Excerpts from
ENCYCLICAL LETTER
CARITAS IN VERITATE
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
BENEDICT XVI
TO THE BISHOPS
PRIESTS AND DEACONS
MEN AND WOMEN RELIGIOUS
THE LAY FAITHFUL
AND ALL PEOPLE OF GOOD WILL
ON INTEGRAL HUMAN DEVELOPMENT
IN CHARITY AND TRUTH

Man's earthly activity, when inspired and sustained by charity, contributes to the building of the universal city of God, which is the goal of the history of the human family. In an increasingly globalized society, the common good and the effort to obtain it cannot fail to assume the dimensions of the whole human family, that is to say, the community of peoples and nations, in such a way as to shape the earthly city in unity and peace, rendering it to some degree an anticipation and a prefiguration of the undivided city of God.


His was certainly a social teaching of great importance: he underlined the indispensable importance of the Gospel for building a society according to freedom and justice, in the ideal and historical perspective of a civilization animated by love. Paul VI clearly understood that the social question had become worldwide and he grasped the interconnection between the impetus towards the unification of humanity and the Christian ideal of a single family of peoples in solidarity and fraternity.

, but only on Christ, to whom every authentic vocation to integral human development must be directed. The Gospel is fundamental for development, because in the Gospel, Christ, "in the very revelation of the mystery of the Father and of his love, fully reveals humanity to itself". Taught by her Lord, the Church examines the signs of the times and interprets them, offering the world "what she possesses as her characteristic attribute: a global vision of man and of the human race"

[TruthBeTold]

Jesus kept the Sabbath, warned about Sabbath breaking in the future, paul kept the Sabbath, jesus said the law would not pass away until heaven and earth has. God said remember the Sabbath and it was the one day we forget. Sunday keeping is no where supported in scripture(the worlds sunday, Monday Tuesday etc, are actually all pagan, the calendar was only numbered and you will not find any one of these names in the bible, you'd be surprised by how much stuff is pagan in origin) and Christian theology has taken Jesus is our rest to mean we must not keep the Sabbath anymore and since Jesus rose on a sunday, were supposed to changed the day of rest to sunday. That's nowhere supported in scripture though and had Jesus changed the day he surely would have said something and paul and the apostles wouldn't have still been keeping the Sabbath.

[chosenone]

Jesus kept the Sabbath, warned about Sabbath breaking in the future, paul kept the Sabbath, jesus said the law would not pass away until heaven and earth has. God said remember the Sabbath and it was the one day we forget. Sunday keeping is no where supported in scripture(the worlds sunday, Monday Tuesday etc, are actually all pagan, the calendar was only numbered and you will not find any one of these names in the bible, you'd be surprised by how much stuff is pagan in origin) and Christian theology has taken Jesus is our rest to mean we must not keep the Sabbath anymore and since Jesus rose on a sunday, were supposed to changed the day of rest to sunday. That's nowhere supported in scripture though and had Jesus changed the day he surely would have said something and paul and the apostles wouldn't have still been keeping the Sabbath.

Paul was a jew.

[TruthBeTold]

Jesus kept the Sabbath, warned about Sabbath breaking in the future, paul kept the Sabbath, jesus said the law would not pass away until heaven and earth has. God said remember the Sabbath and it was the one day we forget. Sunday keeping is no where supported in scripture(the worlds sunday, Monday Tuesday etc, are actually all pagan, the calendar was only numbered and you will not find any one of these names in the bible, you'd be surprised by how much stuff is pagan in origin) and Christian theology has taken Jesus is our rest to mean we must not keep the Sabbath anymore and since Jesus rose on a sunday, were supposed to changed the day of rest to sunday. That's nowhere supported in scripture though and had Jesus changed the day he surely would have said something and paul and the apostles wouldn't have still been keeping the Sabbath.

Paul was a jew.

what does that have to do with everything i stated?

Jesus kept the sabbath too? He was a jew as well? whats your point?

I wrote all that and the response is paul was a jew...

Jesus warned about the abomination of desolation(sabbath breaking)
told people to pray that their flight not be on the sabbath day(was talking about future event)
Jesus kept the sabbath-we are supposed to walk as he did
Jesus said that not one part of the law would pass till heaven and earth did...
God said remember the sabbath-its the day we forget.
Sunday keeping never supported-supported by mans assumption that God wanted us to gather on 1st day instead of 7th because jesus rose on first day.
Paul kept the sabbath-
the patience of the saints-those who keep the commandments of God, faith in Jesus Christ.

People don't realize that by saying the law is done away with, that they are calling themselves sinless.... Sin is the trangression of the law. if the law is done away with there is no sin..

This is all i'm going to say about this though, as i think me and you have been over this before

blessings.

[chosenone]

Jesus kept the Sabbath, warned about Sabbath breaking in the future, paul kept the Sabbath, jesus said the law would not pass away until heaven and earth has. God said remember the Sabbath and it was the one day we forget. Sunday keeping is no where supported in scripture(the worlds sunday, Monday Tuesday etc, are actually all pagan, the calendar was only numbered and you will not find any one of these names in the bible, you'd be surprised by how much stuff is pagan in origin) and Christian theology has taken Jesus is our rest to mean we must not keep the Sabbath anymore and since Jesus rose on a sunday, were supposed to changed the day of rest to sunday. That's nowhere supported in scripture though and had Jesus changed the day he surely would have said something and paul and the apostles wouldn't have still been keeping the Sabbath.

Paul was a jew.

what does that have to do with everything i stated?

Jesus kept the sabbath too? He was a jew as well? whats your point?

I wrote all that and the response is paul was a jew...

Jesus warned about the abomination of desolation(sabbath breaking)
told people to pray that their flight not be on the sabbath day(was talking about future event)
Jesus kept the sabbath-we are supposed to walk as he did
Jesus said that not one part of the law would pass till heaven and earth did...
God said remember the sabbath-its the day we forget.
Sunday keeping never supported-supported by mans assumption that God wanted us to gather on 1st day instead of 7th because jesus rose on first day.
Paul kept the sabbath-
the patience of the saints-those who keep the commandments of God, faith in Jesus Christ.

People don't realize that by saying the law is done away with, that they are calling themselves sinless.... Sin is the trangression of the law. if the law is done away with there is no sin..

This is all i'm going to say about this though, as i think me and you have been over this before

blessings.

You said that Paul at that time kept the sabbath and I said he was a Jew.
Now under the new covenant we have Jesus as our sabbath rest as in 'Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest'   

[DaveW]

Seventh Day churches and sunday christian churches in Tonga and Samoa all go to church on sunday .
Because of the international date line it is impossible to know for sure what day it is.

If they know when sunrise and sunset take place, then they can know which day is the seventh day.

Not really.  You have to have a common start point for that to work.  Since the date line is a man made idea, generally located on the opposite side of the world from the Greenwich Meridian, (only an hour or 2 from Jerusalem) what day it is over there depends on which way around the globe you go.

So the date line is a political entity that zigzags all over the place. And it moves on the whims of each jurisdiction.  Like Western Samoa changing sides while American Samoa stays put.  When this change took effect, it put islands in the same chain and virtually the same longitude being in different days.  So when it is Saturday in American Samoa, it is Sunday in Western Samoa.



And on a wider view, you can see the Kiribati Islands are all west of the Date Line, while the east end of the chain is farther east than the big island of Hawaii. So while Hawaii is in Saturday, the Kiribati Islands are in Sunday. 

[TruthBeTold]

Jesus kept the Sabbath, warned about Sabbath breaking in the future, paul kept the Sabbath, jesus said the law would not pass away until heaven and earth has. God said remember the Sabbath and it was the one day we forget. Sunday keeping is no where supported in scripture(the worlds sunday, Monday Tuesday etc, are actually all pagan, the calendar was only numbered and you will not find any one of these names in the bible, you'd be surprised by how much stuff is pagan in origin) and Christian theology has taken Jesus is our rest to mean we must not keep the Sabbath anymore and since Jesus rose on a sunday, were supposed to changed the day of rest to sunday. That's nowhere supported in scripture though and had Jesus changed the day he surely would have said something and paul and the apostles wouldn't have still been keeping the Sabbath.

Paul was a jew.

what does that have to do with everything i stated?

Jesus kept the sabbath too? He was a jew as well? whats your point?

I wrote all that and the response is paul was a jew...

Jesus warned about the abomination of desolation(sabbath breaking)
told people to pray that their flight not be on the sabbath day(was talking about future event)
Jesus kept the sabbath-we are supposed to walk as he did
Jesus said that not one part of the law would pass till heaven and earth did...
God said remember the sabbath-its the day we forget.
Sunday keeping never supported-supported by mans assumption that God wanted us to gather on 1st day instead of 7th because jesus rose on first day.
Paul kept the sabbath-
the patience of the saints-those who keep the commandments of God, faith in Jesus Christ.

People don't realize that by saying the law is done away with, that they are calling themselves sinless.... Sin is the trangression of the law. if the law is done away with there is no sin..

This is all i'm going to say about this though, as i think me and you have been over this before

blessings.

You said that Paul at that time kept the sabbath and I said he was a Jew.
Now under the new covenant we have Jesus as our sabbath rest as in 'Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest'

I don't understand what the point of mentioning that paul was a jew is. Jesus was a jew too, what does that have to do with anything?

I really didn't want to debate anymore....but I once made a whole document on the Jesus is our Sabbath rest confusion.

To start off, Jesus said come to me all who labor and I will give you rest.....It never said jesus is our Sabbath rest.
Now, Jesus is also our husband....yet people still marry don't they. But i'll go into this even a little further..


the Sabbath was both literal and spiritual . so if one takes that (jesus as our rest as literal) one also have to take this as literal.

John 7:37King James Version (KJV)
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

its the exact same wording and concept.

Matthew 11:28King James Version (KJV)
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

as well as this

2 Corinthians 11:2King James Version (KJV)
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

and

John 6:35King James Version (KJV)
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Now if Jesus is our rest is meant to be taken as Sabbath rest(that was no where implied anyway), then we have to take the other verses to be literal as well. We eat, but we don't need to eat anymore, we thrist but we will not need to drink anymore all in jesus. We can't be married(jesus as our husband), etc.

Jesus wasn't the only spiritual rest either. But spiritual rerst was converted from God only, to God in Jesus Christ. Examples of this in the old testament:

Psalm 62:5New International Version (NIV)
5 Yes, my soul, find rest in God; my hope comes from him.

Psalm 116:7New International Version (NIV)
7 Return to your rest, my soul, for the Lord has been good to you.

Exodus 33:14New International Version (NIV)
14 The Lord replied, "My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest."


Hebrews 4:9-11
9  There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;   10  for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.   11  Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

1st day worship is nowhere supported in scripture.

[chosenone]

Jesus kept the Sabbath, warned about Sabbath breaking in the future, paul kept the Sabbath, jesus said the law would not pass away until heaven and earth has. God said remember the Sabbath and it was the one day we forget. Sunday keeping is no where supported in scripture(the worlds sunday, Monday Tuesday etc, are actually all pagan, the calendar was only numbered and you will not find any one of these names in the bible, you'd be surprised by how much stuff is pagan in origin) and Christian theology has taken Jesus is our rest to mean we must not keep the Sabbath anymore and since Jesus rose on a sunday, were supposed to changed the day of rest to sunday. That's nowhere supported in scripture though and had Jesus changed the day he surely would have said something and paul and the apostles wouldn't have still been keeping the Sabbath.

Paul was a jew.

what does that have to do with everything i stated?

Jesus kept the sabbath too? He was a jew as well? whats your point?

I wrote all that and the response is paul was a jew...

Jesus warned about the abomination of desolation(sabbath breaking)
told people to pray that their flight not be on the sabbath day(was talking about future event)
Jesus kept the sabbath-we are supposed to walk as he did
Jesus said that not one part of the law would pass till heaven and earth did...
God said remember the sabbath-its the day we forget.
Sunday keeping never supported-supported by mans assumption that God wanted us to gather on 1st day instead of 7th because jesus rose on first day.
Paul kept the sabbath-
the patience of the saints-those who keep the commandments of God, faith in Jesus Christ.

People don't realize that by saying the law is done away with, that they are calling themselves sinless.... Sin is the trangression of the law. if the law is done away with there is no sin..

This is all i'm going to say about this though, as i think me and you have been over this before

blessings.

You said that Paul at that time kept the sabbath and I said he was a Jew.
Now under the new covenant we have Jesus as our sabbath rest as in 'Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest'

I don't understand what the point of mentioning that paul was a jew is. Jesus was a jew too, what does that have to do with anything?

I really didn't want to debate anymore....but I once made a whole document on the Jesus is our Sabbath rest confusion.

To start off, Jesus said come to me all who labor and I will give you rest.....It never said jesus is our Sabbath rest.
Now, Jesus is also our husband....yet people still marry don't they. But i'll go into this even a little further..


the Sabbath was both literal and spiritual . so if one takes that (jesus as our rest as literal) one also have to take this as literal.

John 7:37King James Version (KJV)
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

its the exact same wording and concept.

Matthew 11:28King James Version (KJV)
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

as well as this

2 Corinthians 11:2King James Version (KJV)
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

and

John 6:35King James Version (KJV)
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Now if Jesus is our rest is meant to be taken as Sabbath rest(that was no where implied anyway), then we have to take the other verses to be literal as well. We eat, but we don't need to eat anymore, we thrist but we will not need to drink anymore all in jesus. We can't be married(jesus as our husband), etc.

Jesus wasn't the only spiritual rest either. But spiritual rerst was converted from God only, to God in Jesus Christ. Examples of this in the old testament:

Psalm 62:5New International Version (NIV)
5 Yes, my soul, find rest in God; my hope comes from him.

Psalm 116:7New International Version (NIV)
7 Return to your rest, my soul, for the Lord has been good to you.

Exodus 33:14New International Version (NIV)
14 The Lord replied, "My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest."


Hebrews 4:9-11
9  There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;   10  for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.   11  Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

1st day worship is nowhere supported in scripture.

Paul kept the sabbath because that's what Jews did they were told to. I dont keep any day as the sabbath because I am not Jewish and I have Jesus as my sabbath rest.

[Amo]

Jesus kept the Sabbath, warned about Sabbath breaking in the future, paul kept the Sabbath, jesus said the law would not pass away until heaven and earth has. God said remember the Sabbath and it was the one day we forget. Sunday keeping is no where supported in scripture(the worlds sunday, Monday Tuesday etc, are actually all pagan, the calendar was only numbered and you will not find any one of these names in the bible, you'd be surprised by how much stuff is pagan in origin) and Christian theology has taken Jesus is our rest to mean we must not keep the Sabbath anymore and since Jesus rose on a sunday, were supposed to changed the day of rest to sunday. That's nowhere supported in scripture though and had Jesus changed the day he surely would have said something and paul and the apostles wouldn't have still been keeping the Sabbath.

Paul was a jew.

what does that have to do with everything i stated?

Jesus kept the sabbath too? He was a jew as well? whats your point?

I wrote all that and the response is paul was a jew...

Jesus warned about the abomination of desolation(sabbath breaking)
told people to pray that their flight not be on the sabbath day(was talking about future event)
Jesus kept the sabbath-we are supposed to walk as he did
Jesus said that not one part of the law would pass till heaven and earth did...
God said remember the sabbath-its the day we forget.
Sunday keeping never supported-supported by mans assumption that God wanted us to gather on 1st day instead of 7th because jesus rose on first day.
Paul kept the sabbath-
the patience of the saints-those who keep the commandments of God, faith in Jesus Christ.

People don't realize that by saying the law is done away with, that they are calling themselves sinless.... Sin is the trangression of the law. if the law is done away with there is no sin..

This is all i'm going to say about this though, as i think me and you have been over this before

blessings.

You said that Paul at that time kept the sabbath and I said he was a Jew.
Now under the new covenant we have Jesus as our sabbath rest as in 'Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest'

I don't understand what the point of mentioning that paul was a jew is. Jesus was a jew too, what does that have to do with anything?

I really didn't want to debate anymore....but I once made a whole document on the Jesus is our Sabbath rest confusion.

To start off, Jesus said come to me all who labor and I will give you rest.....It never said jesus is our Sabbath rest.
Now, Jesus is also our husband....yet people still marry don't they. But i'll go into this even a little further..


the Sabbath was both literal and spiritual . so if one takes that (jesus as our rest as literal) one also have to take this as literal.

John 7:37King James Version (KJV)
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

its the exact same wording and concept.

Matthew 11:28King James Version (KJV)
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

as well as this

2 Corinthians 11:2King James Version (KJV)
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

and

John 6:35King James Version (KJV)
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Now if Jesus is our rest is meant to be taken as Sabbath rest(that was no where implied anyway), then we have to take the other verses to be literal as well. We eat, but we don't need to eat anymore, we thrist but we will not need to drink anymore all in jesus. We can't be married(jesus as our husband), etc.

Jesus wasn't the only spiritual rest either. But spiritual rerst was converted from God only, to God in Jesus Christ. Examples of this in the old testament:

Psalm 62:5New International Version (NIV)
5 Yes, my soul, find rest in God; my hope comes from him.

Psalm 116:7New International Version (NIV)
7 Return to your rest, my soul, for the Lord has been good to you.

Exodus 33:14New International Version (NIV)
14 The Lord replied, "My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest."


Hebrews 4:9-11
9  There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;   10  for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.   11  Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

1st day worship is nowhere supported in scripture.

Paul kept the sabbath because that's what Jews did they were told to. I dont keep any day as the sabbath because I am not Jewish and I have Jesus as my sabbath rest.

Are you sure you should be speaking for the Apostle Paul in such a manner? Isn't he the one who said there is neither Jew nor Greek, but all are one in Christ? Why will you rebuild and maintain the wall Christ came to tear down?

[Amo]

Seventh Day churches and sunday christian churches in Tonga and Samoa all go to church on sunday .
Because of the international date line it is impossible to know for sure what day it is.

If they know when sunrise and sunset take place, then they can know which day is the seventh day.

Not really.  You have to have a common start point for that to work.  Since the date line is a man made idea, generally located on the opposite side of the world from the Greenwich Meridian, (only an hour or 2 from Jerusalem) what day it is over there depends on which way around the globe you go.

So the date line is a political entity that zigzags all over the place. And it moves on the whims of each jurisdiction.  Like Western Samoa changing sides while American Samoa stays put.  When this change took effect, it put islands in the same chain and virtually the same longitude being in different days.  So when it is Saturday in American Samoa, it is Sunday in Western Samoa.



And on a wider view, you can see the Kiribati Islands are all west of the Date Line, while the east end of the chain is farther east than the big island of Hawaii. So while Hawaii is in Saturday, the Kiribati Islands are in Sunday. 

As you stated, you are addressing man made problems, not problems God made. Do you think God did not know that the world was round when He established the seventh day Sabbath? Did He intend that this would be a point of confusion?

[Beta]

Jesus kept the Sabbath, warned about Sabbath breaking in the future, paul kept the Sabbath, jesus said the law would not pass away until heaven and earth has. God said remember the Sabbath and it was the one day we forget. Sunday keeping is no where supported in scripture(the worlds sunday, Monday Tuesday etc, are actually all pagan, the calendar was only numbered and you will not find any one of these names in the bible, you'd be surprised by how much stuff is pagan in origin) and Christian theology has taken Jesus is our rest to mean we must not keep the Sabbath anymore and since Jesus rose on a sunday, were supposed to changed the day of rest to sunday. That's nowhere supported in scripture though and had Jesus changed the day he surely would have said something and paul and the apostles wouldn't have still been keeping the Sabbath.

Paul was a jew.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ Jesus.
Traditional christians love to keep that difference alive....still keeping up the wall of partition.

[TruthBeTold]

Jesus kept the Sabbath, warned about Sabbath breaking in the future, paul kept the Sabbath, jesus said the law would not pass away until heaven and earth has. God said remember the Sabbath and it was the one day we forget. Sunday keeping is no where supported in scripture(the worlds sunday, Monday Tuesday etc, are actually all pagan, the calendar was only numbered and you will not find any one of these names in the bible, you'd be surprised by how much stuff is pagan in origin) and Christian theology has taken Jesus is our rest to mean we must not keep the Sabbath anymore and since Jesus rose on a sunday, were supposed to changed the day of rest to sunday. That's nowhere supported in scripture though and had Jesus changed the day he surely would have said something and paul and the apostles wouldn't have still been keeping the Sabbath.

Paul was a jew.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ Jesus.
Traditional christians love to keep that difference alive....still keeping up the wall of partition.

how does being a jew have anything to do with keeping the sabbath though? the sabbath is NEVER referred to in the bible as the jewish sabbath, isrealites sabbath etc...It is called the sabbath of the lord thy God. Its like saying someone kept the first second third commandment etc because they were a jew? i just don't get what hes saying.

[Beta]

Jesus kept the Sabbath, warned about Sabbath breaking in the future, paul kept the Sabbath, jesus said the law would not pass away until heaven and earth has. God said remember the Sabbath and it was the one day we forget. Sunday keeping is no where supported in scripture(the worlds sunday, Monday Tuesday etc, are actually all pagan, the calendar was only numbered and you will not find any one of these names in the bible, you'd be surprised by how much stuff is pagan in origin) and Christian theology has taken Jesus is our rest to mean we must not keep the Sabbath anymore and since Jesus rose on a sunday, were supposed to changed the day of rest to sunday. That's nowhere supported in scripture though and had Jesus changed the day he surely would have said something and paul and the apostles wouldn't have still been keeping the Sabbath.

Paul was a jew.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ Jesus.
Traditional christians love to keep that difference alive....still keeping up the wall of partition.

how does being a jew have anything to do with keeping the sabbath though? the sabbath is NEVER referred to in the bible as the jewish sabbath, isrealites sabbath etc...It is called the sabbath of the lord thy God. Its like saying someone kept the first second third commandment etc because they were a jew? i just don't get what hes saying.

Of course you are right....it is not nor ever has been the 'jewish sabbath, but that is what people (who don't know better) believe and base their understanding on....in spite of God telling us not to do that.
And not satisfied with that wrong assumption they then insist that Paul tells us to choose our own sabbath day.
When one is on the slippery slope of error it does not take long to be on the road to destruction...as they will find out to their cost unless they repent.

[Amo]

http://wwrn.org/articles/45005/?&place=europe

[Amo]

The following links to articles relating to Sunday laws were found at - http://www.markofbeast.net/page3.htm

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-11/uom-std111915.php

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/10/sunday-trading-david-burrowes-snp-conservatives_n_8519622.html

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/if-you-have-the-right-to-work-you-have-the-right-to-rest-pope-says-61287/

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/200490#.VfVEV9JVikp

[Amo]

http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/europeaninterestgroupwork


http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/26/sainsburys-chief-attacks-sunday-trading-law-change


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/10/plan-relax-sunday-trading-rules-shelved-snp


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11986982/David-Cameron-pulls-vote-on-relaxing-Sunday-Trading-hours-in-face-of-unholy-alliance-of-20-Tory-SNP-and-Labour-MPs.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shopping-and-consumer-news/11938454/Church-anger-at-longer-Sunday-shopping-hours.html


http://wncn.com/2015/12/01/church-leader-wants-christians-to-curb-sunday-shopping/


http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/longer-sunday-shopping-hours-churchs-argument-against-them-isnt-about-religion-1528274

[DaveW]

Amo - how do you square your belief that the Roman church will start enforcing Sunday sabbath laws while the current pope has put forth this statement:


http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/12/10/vatican_issues_new_document_on_christian-jewish_dialogue_/1193274

It says in part:

Since each of the two readings serves the purpose of rightly understanding God's will and word, it becomes evident how important is the awareness that the Christian faith is rooted in the faith of Abraham. That raises the further question of how the Old and the New Covenant stand in relation to one another. For the Christian faith it is axiomatic that there can only be one single covenant history of God with humanity. The covenant with Abraham, with circumcision as its sign (cf. Gen 17), and the covenant with Moses restricted to Israel regarding obedience to the law (cf. Ex 19:5; 24:7-8) and in particular the observance of the Sabbath (cf. Ex 31:16-17) had been extended in the covenant with Noah, with the rainbow as its sign (cf. "Verbum Domini", 117), to the whole of creation (cf. Gen 9:9 ff). Through the prophets God in turn promises a new and eternal covenant (cf. Is 55:3; 61:8; Jer 31:31-34; Ez 36:22-28). Each of these covenants incorporates the previous covenant and interprets it in a new way. That is also true for the New Covenant which for Christians is the final eternal covenant and therefore the definitive interpretation of what was promised by the prophets of the Old Covenant, or as Paul expresses it, the "Yes" and "Amen" to "all that God has promised" (2 Cor 1:20). The Church as the renewed people of God has been elected by God without conditions. The Church is the definitive and unsurpassable locus of the salvific action of God. This however does not mean that Israel as the people of God has been repudiated or has lost its mission (cf. "Nostra aetate", No.4). The New Covenant for Christians is therefore neither the annulment nor the replacement, but the fulfilment of the promises of the Old Covenant.

[RB]

Since each of the two readings serves the purpose of rightly understanding God's will and word, it becomes evident how important is the awareness that the Christian faith is rooted in the faith of Abraham. That raises the further question of how the Old and the New Covenant stand in relation to one another. For the Christian faith it is axiomatic that there can only be one single covenant history of God with humanity. The covenant with Abraham, with circumcision as its sign (cf. Gen 17), and the covenant with Moses restricted to Israel regarding obedience to the law (cf. Ex 19:5; 24:7-8) and in particular the observance of the Sabbath (cf. Ex 31:16-17) had been extended in the covenant with Noah, with the rainbow as its sign (cf. "Verbum Domini", 117), to the whole of creation (cf. Gen 9:9 ff). Through the prophets God in turn promises a new and eternal covenant (cf. Is 55:3; 61:8; Jer 31:31-34; Ez 36:22-28). Each of these covenants incorporates the previous covenant and interprets it in a new way. That is also true for the New Covenant which for Christians is the final eternal covenant and therefore the definitive interpretation of what was promised by the prophets of the Old Covenant, or as Paul expresses it, the "Yes" and "Amen" to "all that God has promised" (2 Cor 1:20). The Church as the renewed people of God has been elected by God without conditions. The Church is the definitive and unsurpassable locus of the salvific action of God. This however does not mean that Israel as the people of God has been repudiated or has lost its mission (cf. "Nostra aetate", No.4). The New Covenant for Christians is therefore neither the annulment nor the replacement, but the fulfilment of the promises of the Old Covenant.

I do not think he even believes in what I highlighted above.

[Amo]

Amo - how do you square your belief that the Roman church will start enforcing Sunday sabbath laws while the current pope has put forth this statement:


http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/12/10/vatican_issues_new_document_on_christian-jewish_dialogue_/1193274

It says in part:

Since each of the two readings serves the purpose of rightly understanding God's will and word, it becomes evident how important is the awareness that the Christian faith is rooted in the faith of Abraham. That raises the further question of how the Old and the New Covenant stand in relation to one another. For the Christian faith it is axiomatic that there can only be one single covenant history of God with humanity. The covenant with Abraham, with circumcision as its sign (cf. Gen 17), and the covenant with Moses restricted to Israel regarding obedience to the law (cf. Ex 19:5; 24:7-8) and in particular the observance of the Sabbath (cf. Ex 31:16-17) had been extended in the covenant with Noah, with the rainbow as its sign (cf. "Verbum Domini", 117), to the whole of creation (cf. Gen 9:9 ff). Through the prophets God in turn promises a new and eternal covenant (cf. Is 55:3; 61:8; Jer 31:31-34; Ez 36:22-28). Each of these covenants incorporates the previous covenant and interprets it in a new way. That is also true for the New Covenant which for Christians is the final eternal covenant and therefore the definitive interpretation of what was promised by the prophets of the Old Covenant, or as Paul expresses it, the "Yes" and "Amen" to "all that God has promised" (2 Cor 1:20). The Church as the renewed people of God has been elected by God without conditions. The Church is the definitive and unsurpassable locus of the salvific action of God. This however does not mean that Israel as the people of God has been repudiated or has lost its mission (cf. "Nostra aetate", No.4). The New Covenant for Christians is therefore neither the annulment nor the replacement, but the fulfilment of the promises of the Old Covenant.

Not sure of the point your making. Perhaps you could expound somewhat. The Roman Church believes in civil legislation which backs up there teachings. They do not believe in separation of church and state. They support Sunday legislation. They have in the past, they do now, and they admonish it for the future. They plainly teach that the old covenant sabbath has been replaced by Sunday, and that all christians should seek legislative acknowledgment of the day. They don't want to demand it themselves, they want to convince enough people to do it for them. This is how they work. If you need quotes to prove all of the above just ask, though so very many have already been given on these boards. "Christian" Sunday laws came into being concurrent to, and aided by the rise of the papacy. They have been here ever since the church of Rome has, and will only end when she does also.

[Amo]

Amo - how do you square your belief that the Roman church will start enforcing Sunday sabbath laws while the current pope has put forth this statement:


http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/12/10/vatican_issues_new_document_on_christian-jewish_dialogue_/1193274

It says in part:

Since each of the two readings serves the purpose of rightly understanding God's will and word, it becomes evident how important is the awareness that the Christian faith is rooted in the faith of Abraham. That raises the further question of how the Old and the New Covenant stand in relation to one another. For the Christian faith it is axiomatic that there can only be one single covenant history of God with humanity. The covenant with Abraham, with circumcision as its sign (cf. Gen 17), and the covenant with Moses restricted to Israel regarding obedience to the law (cf. Ex 19:5; 24:7-8) and in particular the observance of the Sabbath (cf. Ex 31:16-17) had been extended in the covenant with Noah, with the rainbow as its sign (cf. "Verbum Domini", 117), to the whole of creation (cf. Gen 9:9 ff). Through the prophets God in turn promises a new and eternal covenant (cf. Is 55:3; 61:8; Jer 31:31-34; Ez 36:22-28). Each of these covenants incorporates the previous covenant and interprets it in a new way. That is also true for the New Covenant which for Christians is the final eternal covenant and therefore the definitive interpretation of what was promised by the prophets of the Old Covenant, or as Paul expresses it, the "Yes" and "Amen" to "all that God has promised" (2 Cor 1:20). The Church as the renewed people of God has been elected by God without conditions. The Church is the definitive and unsurpassable locus of the salvific action of God. This however does not mean that Israel as the people of God has been repudiated or has lost its mission (cf. "Nostra aetate", No.4). The New Covenant for Christians is therefore neither the annulment nor the replacement, but the fulfilment of the promises of the Old Covenant.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/200490

http://www.maozisrael.org/site/News2?id=8726

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/business/.premium-1.532386

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/israel-adopts-sundays-off/2013/02/23/

http://www.timesofisrael.com/sunday-a-day-off-in-israel-tel-aviv-brokers-hope-so/

http://remnant-online.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=88&Itemid=17

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/world/middleeast/07israel.html?_r=0

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/22858/Default.aspx

[Amo]

http://www.ldausa.org/lda/sunday-as-a-mark/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97PMsn9ij_k

[Amo]

http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2014/05/12/no-work-on-sunday-the-warning-of-the-virgin-mary-at-la-salette/

http://www.marypages.com/LaSaletteEng.htm


http://www.returntoorder.org/2015/04/sunday-is-a-day-of-rest-isnt-it/

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/cif-green/2009/sep/17/low-carbon-sunday

http://www.piercedhearts.org/magisterium_church/splendor_truth/ten_commandments/third_commandment.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sabbath.htm

http://www.sacredcalendar.info/Week.html

[Amo]

http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/home/article/196.html?SWS=dcf9cd7c121c90615f5bfad5b30fe376

http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/home/article/193.html

https://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2015/01/25/7-reasons-why-we-should-rest-on-sundays/

http://nationalreport.net/ted-cruz-adds-mandatory-church-platform-inspiring-words-sylvia-allen/

[Amo]

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/cif-green/2009/sep/17/low-carbon-sunday

http://rebrn.com/re/the-simple-solution-to-global-warming-using-sunday-as-a-day-of-r-2202723/