Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism

[Amo]

Constantine had a vision of a cross, went to battle and conquered his enemies under that sign, established Christianity as a legal religion of the empire, demanded that all properties lost during their persecutions be returned to them, that is to the Catholic church, then demanded that all Christians basically be Catholic, and also instituted a Sunday law applicable to pagans and Christians alike. Will you pretend these things went without notice by the pagans? Or that there were not developments along these very lines leading up to these climactic events? 

Pagan's had no choice but to care. A new religion developed and rapidly spread among them. Its numbers increased rapidly.


Amo, by St. Constantine's time Christianity had been around in the Roman empire for over 300 years! Do you consider the Methodist church, which was established in 1735 (282 years ago) to be a "new" denomination? Or how about the Baptist church, which was established in 1609 (408 years ago) to be a "new" denomination? Or how about your own Seventh-day Adventist church, established in 1863 (just 154 years ago), to be a "new" denomination? Of course you don't. And neither was Christianity "new" at the time of St. Constantine. For the pagans, Christianity was as normal and well known as any of the denominations I listed are known in the U.S. today. In other words, Christianity wasn't new to them.[/quote]
 
Poor comparison, apples and oranges. All of the denominations mentioned above arising among and within Christianity itself already existing for over a thousand years. Christianity came forth from Judaism, which rejected it, as did all the prevalent pagan religions of the day. Which pagan religions had the support of their government against Christianity, to persecute the same. The rise of Christianity however, as history has proved, meant the death of paganism. This is true in the case of authentic Christianity which dispels paganism through the revelation of truth, and apostate "Christianity" which expelled paganism with the sword. Having adapted the latter through apostasy itself. Thereby attempting to expel all rival forms or variations of Christianity itself also.





And another thing, you never did answer my question from before:  If Sunday was considered such a holy and sacred day by the Roman pagans, notwithstanding the beliefs of the adherents of Mithraism, why do you suppose then that St. Constantine's Sunday law was the very first one enacted in the entire history of the Roman empire up to his time which was some 1,074 years from Rome's founding? I'd be interested to hear some twisted reasoning from you about how Sunday was always regarded as holy and sacred by the Romans but somehow was never venerated as such by them. Good luck with that one!

This is from your own twisted mind, not mine. I've already addressed this. Whether Sunday was of importance to pagan sun worshipers or not, it would not be offensive to them to be commanded to rest on the day of the sun. Which is why a sun worshiping emperor politically toying with apostate "Christianity" introduced a Sunday law that would be acceptable to both parties. Pagan sun worshipers, and compromising "Christianity" alike which had already begun to exalt the day of the sun themselves.
 
The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884
 
Dr. A.Chr. Bang says regarding this Law :
"This Sunday law constituted no real favoratism to Christianity..... It is evident from all his statuatory provisions that the Emperor during the time 313-323 with full consciousness has sought the realisation of his religeous aim: the amalgamation of heathenism and Christianity." Kirken og Romerstaten (The Church and the Roman State) p.256. Christiania, 1879
 
In A.D. 321, to please the bishops of the Catholic Church, he issued an edict commanding judges, townspeople, and mechanics to rest on Sunday. Yet in this also his paganism was still manifest, as the edict required rest on "the venerable day of the sun," and "enjoined the observance, or rather forbade the public desecration, of Sunday, not under the name of Sabbatum, or Dies Domini, but under its old astrological and heathen title, Dies Solis , familiar to all his subjects, so that the law was as applicable to the worshipers of Hercules, Apollo, and Mithras, as to the Christians."  (History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, sec. 75, par. 5.-Schaff.)   ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 391 )
 
Of course in all of this again, your own bias has you completely ignoring historic Christianity concerning the many who continued to keep the seventh day Sabbath during all this time. Their existence testifies against your argument and claims, thus you ignore them.

[Amo]

It is nonsensical to those willing to deny or ignore history in order to maintain their beliefs. Let's see, Sun-day, or the day of the Sun. If sun worshipers were going to have a special day of worship, gee I don't know, what day do you think that would be? What day do you suppose compromising "Christians" could choose to worship, that would not offend their pagan sun worshiping contemporaries, gee I don't know, maybe Sun-day?


So, according to your reasoning, the early Christians chose to worship together on Sunday, not because of their love for Christ and His resurrection testified to by St. Justin the Martyr (because apparently that was a dastardly lie), but because the Christians wanted to get in the good graces of a start up sun-worshipping cult that met in caves underground?? Yeah, sure they did, Amo, sure they did. 

Again, that is your own twisted reasoning concerning what I believe, not what I actually believe. Sunday worship developed over time involving varying reasons and circumstance. None of which were biblical. Without question, Constantine's influence and Sunday law were a big boost for the same. None of which was based upon biblical teaching. Without question also, commanding all people of an empire to become Christian, polluted the church with countless unconverted souls, who themselves heavily contributed to even more rapid apostasy. These are undeniable facts of history. Again and again though, you are ignoring the many Christians who continued to keep the seventh day Sabbath during this time, who again testify that not all "Christianity" went down this same road that you have accepted.

  



If the early Christians didn't want to offend their pagan contemporaries, as you suggest, then why did they speak out so strongly against the various heresies and paganism of their day, including Mithraism, denouncing them as from demons? I mean, if they weren't trying to offend them, then they certainly wouldn't have spoken out against them the way did, would they?

To the contrary, as their apostasy increased, and their power along with it, they became more abusive than the pagans themselves. Eventually they apostatized to the point of accepting the power of the state or Caesar over that of the Holy Spirit of God as their defender and promulgator. Outlawing paganism, demanding their immediate conversion by law, destroying and or taking over their temples for their own use or profit, destroying countless volumes of literature, and God only knows what else. They went from being the persecuted to being the persecutors. All of this they did to other Christians as well, who would not bow to their apostate and usurped authority. Yet here you are denying any corruption in the Christian church during this time of transformation from lamb to dragon. I am not the one attempting to revise history here. You are in order to protect your coveted belief. The historic church which you ignore and deny kept the seventh day Sabbath and maintained bible teaching. The historic church which you defend as authentic, turned into a state supported monster and persecuting power bringing untold misery upon humanity for over a thousand years.

[Amo]

Christians did not begin Sunday observance from the start.


Correction: Christians have never "observed" Sunday. They "observe" the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. And what better day to observe Easter/Pascha than on the day He rose from the dead? That's why Christians gather together to worship on Sundays, because of the Lord's resurrection. After all, scripture says that He rose from the dead on the first day of the week (i.e. Sunday). You have to understand Amo, that the resurrection of Christ is the meaning and purpose of the Christian, without which there would be no Christianity. Therefore, Christ's resurrection on Sunday takes precedence over everything else. It is most holy, not the day, but the event that occurred on the day. And it is that event that is "observed" and celebrated every Sunday in the historic Church.

You can say that as many times as you want, but it will never make it true. You can ignore all the Christians that kept the seventh day Sabbath for centuries after Christ if you want, but that will not make the facts go away. The NT scriptures say absolutely nothing of what you said above and you cannot add it to them. It was not taught by the apostles because the teaching and practice did not exist in their day. It developed later into practice by tradition, not scriptural authority. It was not accepted by all Christians, but was forced upon all later when apostate "Christianity" forced itself upon an entire empire by a politically motivated Emperor. Countless millions of professing Christians throughout history have believed completely different than you do regarding it, and still do today. Believing it is the "Christian" Sabbath replacing the seventh day Sabbath. Which they have forced upon all they could through civil legislation all throughout history and even today. Deny it all if you wish, that will change nothing.
 

Your reference to Justin Martyr's First Apology proves nothing regarding the same. The man was a perfect example of what I have already stated. He was a converted pagan and Greek philosopher. You look to him for proof of Sunday sacredness because you cannot look to the scriptures for the same. The scriptures speak nothing of it, because it developed later in time, and without any support from Christ or the apostles.


You're right, he was a converted Greek philosopher, but he was no pagan since he didn't worship the deities of the Greeks and Romans. You'd know this if you bothered to actually read his writings. And I don't look to him for "proof" of Sunday sacredness. I simply employ him as an eyewitness to what Christians were, for a long time, believing and doing in his day. He was merely relating what he was taught when he came into the Church. After all, he wasn't inventing the practice of Baptism or the Eucharist or the prayers or the readings from the Prophets and Apostles that the Church did every time it worshipped was he? Of course not. And neither was he inventing for the first time the practice of Christians meeting together on Sunday for worship. He was simply stating what was a fact among Christians in his day so soon after the Apostles' time. That is all.

I have, and have read his writings, which changes nothing. I consider his writings and those of the supposed church fathers to be evidence of the apostasy which eventually became the Church of Rome. You, as the Church of Rome, consider them to be the development of authentic Christianity. I look to the scriptures for authenticity, not the writings of those "Christians" existing during the change of posture in the church from that of a lamb and blessing to the world, to that of a dragon and curse upon the world.

[Amo]

It seems to me that the Seventh-day Adventist ire over an eyewitness' testimony that doesn't agree with their imaginary theories is most unreasonable. St. Justin has no axe to grind in our discussion, Amo, and he certainly had no knowledge of a Seventh-day Adventist church whose doctrines he knew nothing about. When he related what the Christians practiced he was speaking to the ancient Roman government (see chapter 1 of his First Apology), not to Jews or Seventh-day Adventists that he was trying to convert. His goal in his writing was simply an attempt to persuade pagan Rome to stop killing Christians for merely being Christians. His testimony is what it is, and I take it for what it is, an honest assessment of Christians in his day. That's why his testimony is so valuable to us today, because it gives us a snap-shot  of the Church from antiquity.

It gives us a snap shot of the views of one of the contending "Christian" entities of the day. Some of which were much more biblically based than others. The fact that it survived means that it was either approved by the apostate Roman church which ordered all others to comply with its own teachings and destroyed all the writings of all who taught otherwise, accidentally went unnoticed by the apostate Roman church, or was in fact produced at a later date than claimed. The fact that the Roman church accepts and makes use of the writings as well to defend her own unbiblical practices and doctrines, is proof enough that the only reason they exist today is because she either approved of them early on, or created them herself. I think both are true and or acceptable. Again, I consider that they document the spread of apostasy, and the influence of pagans and politics upon the early church. You consider them to reveal the development of authentic Christianity. I find authentic Christianity in the scriptures, not the supposed church fathers.
 

You may not be Catholic, but your contention is the same as theirs.


I never said that I wasn't Catholic Amo. Just that I wasn't Roman Catholic. 

Good for you, your Catholic but not Roman Catholic.
 

You believe some who called themselves the church, had the authority to do away with the seventh day Sabbath, and institute another day of worship in its place. All of this with no scriptural authority.


No one did away with the seventh-day sabbath Amo. Classical Christianity simply understands it differently from the Jews, Seventh-day Adventists, and you. And besides, didn't you tell me over on the other thread entitled "Worshipping God on Sunday" that it isn't wrong for Christians to worship corporately together on any day of the week including Sunday? Now you're saying there has to be scriptural authority showing that it's okay for Christians to worship corporately together on Sunday?? It seems to me that you're not too clear on what you believe Amo.

Twisting my words to your own ends will not change their meaning, nor allow you to see clearly what I believe. This is your own doing though, not mine. It is of course fine for Christians to worship God on any day. It is not fine for them to think they have the authority to change or do away with one of His commandments. Those who no longer keep the seventh day Sabbath accept that someone other than God, somewhere, some time, had the authority to change one of God's commandments. They were and are wrong.

[Amo]

You ignore the fact that a great many Christians who also considered themselves the church, continued to keep the seventh day Sabbath, and simply argue that the early church did away with it, and established Sunday sacredness. Who do you say the Sabbath keepers were? Or do you just deny their existence altogether?


A great many Christians continued to keep the seventh-day sabbath? Really Amo? Who were these "great many Christians" and what exactly do you mean that they kept the seventh-day sabbath?

http://christsassembly.com/2015/05/honoring-of-the-sabbath-in-the-historic-orthodox-church/

http://www.cogwriter.com/sabbath.htm

http://www.celticorthodoxchurch.com/index2.html

http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/sabbathkeepingchurches.html

 
 "The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The  Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)
 
 "The gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath." Gieseler's Church History, Vol.1,ch.2, par.30, p.93.
 
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and did spend the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to that purpose." Dialogues on the Lord's Day. p.189. London: 1701. By Dr. T. H. Morer.(church of England divine)
 
"The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and by keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but the command of Jesus." Geschichte des Sonntags, pp.13,14.
 
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East Church) three hundred year after the Saviour's death." A learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p.77.
 
"The seventh-day Sabbath was.. solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in a manner quite abolish the observation of it." Dissertation on the Lord's Day, pp.33,34,44.
 
"As early as A.D.225 their existed large bishoprics or conferences of the church of the East (Sabbath-keeping) stretching from Palestine to India." Mingana, Early Spread of
Christianity. Vol.10, p.460.
 
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the Law, not for idleness of the hands." The Anti-Nicene Fathers, Vol.7, p 413, From Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, A document of the 3rd and 4th centuries.
 
"After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice [the crucifixion] is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a Sabbatismus, that is a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God [Heb 4:9]" Homily on Numbers 23, par.4, in Migne, Patrologia Greaca, Vol. 12, cols.749,750.
 
"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." History of the Sabbath (original Spelling retained) Part 2, par. 5, pp. 73,74, London: 1636, Dr. Heylyn.
 
"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day. It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world observed the Sabbath as a festival..Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the    Christian Church, Vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138
 
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observation of the Jew's Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it. Sunday a Sabbath,John Ley, p.163 London 1640.
 
"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does,' " Heylyn, The History of the Sabbath, 1613
 
 "Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26, sec. 2, p.527.
 
"For although almost all Churches throught the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath" It says : "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called 'the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Sacrates, Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.

[Amo]

As for your question regarding who the sabbath keepers were, the answer is everyone who becomes a Christian in baptism and turns from their evil ways. The following is addressed to you, Amo, and everyone else with a similar mindset to yours:

Quote from: St. Justin the Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho The Jew, Chapter 12-13
This same law you have despised, and His new holy covenant you have slighted; and now you neither receive it, nor repent of your evil deeds. For your ears are closed, your eyes are blinded, and the heart is hardened, Jeremiah has cried; yet not even then do you listen. The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure.

For Isaiah did not send you to a bath, there to wash away murder and other sins, which not even all the water of the sea were sufficient to purge; but, as might have been expected, this was that saving bath of the olden time which followed those who repented, and who no longer were purified by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of an heifer, or by the offerings of fine flour, but by faith through the blood of Christ, and through His death, who died for this very reason,



Source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01282.htm

No, it is not for me, I am not Jewish or following the literal Jews who deny Jesus as their Messiah. I am a spiritual Jew, who has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. Here is a message for you from my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ –
 
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
 
Go to, follow your teacher and lord Justin. I will follow my Lord, my Savior, and teacher by way of living example, Jesus Christ. No one has to abandon the observance of the fourth commandment of God to understand, accept, and be saved by and through the gospel of Jesus Christ. To the contrary, the saved want to keep the law of God. Only apostate Christianity demands that the seventh day Sabbath no longer be observed. Your man Justin was a forerunner of the man of sin and his church. He is your church father, not mine.

[Amo]

There might be some controversy surrounding Clement of Alexandria, but the quotes you listed don't appear to be the source of it. In fact, I find his teaching, in the quotes provided, to be very good and Christian. But if you believe he has spoken evil in any of the quotes you listed, as you certainly believe he has, then bear witness to the evil, because as it is, I don't see how they teach anything contrary to the faith of Christ. In fact, some of them are quite beautiful in their poetic nature. So thanks for that! 

Yes, I understand that as a child of the church fathers of apostasy defending the exaltation of the day of the sun over the Sabbath of God, you would not see any problem with the above quotes. The man is one of your chosen church fathers, why would you have a problem with his teachings or methods? The problem is far more obvious though, to those willing to admit the major influence and unbiblical changes brought about in the "Church" through association and adaption of pagan thought and practice. The Roman Catholic church itself being a prime example of this association and adaption, which is unsupported and condemned by scripture.

That term (Sun of Righteousness) appears in scripture once. It is in reference to the fact that although God's appearance will bring destruction and fire upon the wicked, it will be as the healing rays of the sun upon the saved.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

A Jewish prophet speaking the above to the Jews, is a far cry from a Greek philosopher speaking such to pagans or newly converted pagans. One may be appropriate, the other certainly not.


So it's okay for the prophet Malachi to liken Christ to the sun with the epithet "Sun of Righteousness", but it's not okay for a Christian you disagree with to use a similar tactic for teaching? Got it Amo! No bias or prejudice coming from your direction I see 

Some people just have poor judgment, and can't see problems right in front of their faces, because those problems are not convenient to them. Time, place, and context are important factors to consider. You deny pagan sun worshiping influence upon the early church, therefore you deny any problem with Justin's repeated references to the sun in relation to the Son of God, or His teachings and influence. I admit and testify of that influence, therefore I make the obvious observation of that influence upon Justin himself, and those he addressed. It is no surprise that one of your "church fathers" who contributed to the exaltation of the day of the sun over and above the Sabbath of God, should also closely associate Christ, the word of God, and there influence to the sun, sun beams, and the like. Go to, continue to exalt the sun-day, and teach people to break the commandments of God.

[Amo]

By the way, I'd like to address your contention that worship and prayer toward the east is always somehow linked with worshipping the sun. While sun-worshipers no doubt worshipped toward the east to the rising of the sun, this in no way prohibits anyone else from facing east to worship and pray as though they are doing it for the same reason. Just as in the committing of a crime, even so in the practice of faith motive is important. 

Christians worshipping and praying toward the east is not indicative of sun worship in Christianity. Christians believe that God's glory comes from the east. Hear what scripture says regarding this:

Quote from: Ezekiel 43:1-4

Afterward he brought me to the gate, the gate that faces toward the east. And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. It was like the appearance of the vision which I saw—like the vision which I saw when I came to destroy the city. The visions were like the vision which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. And the glory of the Lord came into the temple by way of the gate which faces toward the east.


Christians also hear what the Psalmist says about singing to God toward the east:
Quote from: Psalm 68:32-33 (LXX)

Sing to God, ye kingdoms of the earth; sing psalms to the Lord. Pause.
Sing to God that rides on the heaven of heaven, eastward: lo, he will utter a mighty sound with his voice.

And Christians believe Christ's coming will be from the east:

Quote from: Matthew 24:27

For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

In fact, on this last note about His second coming, even your prophetess Ellen White said that Christ would come from the east. Hear what she says:

Quote from: Ellen White, The Great Controversy, Page 640

Soon there appears in the east a small black cloud, about half the size of a man's hand. It is the cloud which surrounds the Saviour and which seems in the distance to be shrouded in darkness. The people of God know this to be the sign of the Son of man. In solemn silence they gaze upon it as it draws nearer the earth, becoming lighter and more glorious, until it is a great white cloud, its base a glory like consuming fire, and above it the rainbow of the covenant. Jesus rides forth as a mighty conqueror. Not now a "Man of Sorrows," to drink the bitter cup of shame and woe, He comes, victor in heaven and earth, to judge the living and the dead. "Faithful and True," "in righteousness He judges and makes war." And "the armies in heaven" (Revelation 19:11, 14) follow Him. With anthems of celestial melody the holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng, attend Him on His way. The firmament seems filled with radiant forms—"ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands." Revelation 5:11. No human pen can portray the scene; no mortal mind is adequate to conceive its splendor. "His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of His praise. His brightness was like the light." Habakkuk 3:3, 4. As the living cloud comes still nearer, every eye beholds the Prince of life. No crown of thorns now mars that sacred head; but a diadem of glory rests on His holy brow. His countenance outshines the dazzling brightness of the noonday sun. "And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: King of kings and Lord of lords." Revelation 19:16.

Source: https://tinyurl.com/mxomo4v

Amo, just because someone does something that's similar to what some pagans did a long time ago doesn't mean they're doing it for the same reason. Also, and just as true, something isn't automatically ruined for Christians simply because pagans did something similar. The reasons why Christians worship and pray toward the east are entirely different from the ancient pagans. The similarities are surface and that is all. Christians don't worship the sun, they worship the Sun of Righteousness! Judge with righteous judgment, Amo, and not according to outward appearance.

Yes motive is important. God will judge between you, and those who have stated the purpose of facing the east was pagan influence. Nevertheless, this practice is again unbiblical. Scripture says nowhere to face the east in prayer because God will return from the east. To the contrary, the one reference we have from scripture regarding those who did bow down and pray to the east at the rising sun, was that it was an abomination to God. Not just an abomination, but the worst of a list of abominations pointed out by God. Yet here you are defending the practice, while defending breaking the fourth commandment, while defending Sunday sacredness. None of which scripture sanctions, all of which scripture condemns. All because you follow your "church fathers" above scripture.

North African half-heathen Christians who led out in Christian worship on Sunday, were also the first to call Jesus Christ the true Sun-god, and to direct their prayers toward the east--the rising sun--to rise early in the morning that they pray facing the sun as it arose. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD.) frequently called Christ the true Sun, and he urged the pagans to accept Him as such. Origen (c. 185-254) said, "Christ is the Sun of Justice; if the moon is united, which is the Church, it will be filled with His light." Cyprian (d. 258), Bishop of Carthage told believers "to pray at sunrise to commemorate the resurrection . . . and to pray at the setting of the sun . . . for the advent of Christ." "They took a much easier view of certain pagan customs, conventions and images and saw no objection, after ridding them of their pagan content, to adapting them to Christian thought."--J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.

When Christianity went down the same road of apostasy as Israel in amalgamating sun worship with the true worship of God through Christ, God sent the barbarians of the north who caused destruction and desolation everywhere they went. By the time Sunday sacredness had almost completely replaced God's seventh day Sabbath, the western Roman empire collapsed under the weight of continual invasions by the barbarians of the north. They spread destruction and desolation everywhere they went and sacked Rome itself several times. God's judgement comes from the north. When the abomination of desolation is set up again by law in place of God's Sabbath by the last beast of biblical prophesy, God Himself will bring judgement upon this earth.[/color=blue]


I see that you have many thoughts in your head Amo. Wrong thoughts for sure, but many nonetheless.




God will be the judge of that, not you. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. One of us no doubt will have some serious explaining to do, when we stand before the judge of all.[/color=blue]

Give the drama a rest Amo. We're just having a discussion here. Besides, you obviously think the exact same about me. You've certainly said as much.

Here is some more drama for you.

Mt 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

We are discussing the word of God, which is not to be trifled with. There is no drama in the very real warning, that those who choose to handle the word of God, will most certainly be judged according to the way they handle it. One of us is lying, and liars will not go unpunished. Especially those who lie about the word of God.

2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Revelation 21:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I believe that what you teach is part of the mystery of iniquity and deception. If I am right, it will not be well for you in the judgment. If I am wrong and you are right, it will not be well for me in the judgment. Considering what awaits which ever of us is wrong, we haven't really displayed near enough drama. We are living in and through one of the greatest dramas of all time. The parts we choose to play will have eternal consequences.

Jn 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You and I will both be judged by the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, King of kings, and Lord of lords.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

All who deny the above testimony of Jesus Christ, will be judged by the same.

[trevans1977]

Amo,

You are using Matthew 5:17,18,19 to reinforce your point here on this sabbath thread, but I don't think those verses lead where you want them to.

I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law, but let me ask you, when Jesus is talking about the law and the prophets in those verses, is he talking about ALL the law of Israel and the prophets, or just the 10 commandments?

I believe in those verses he is talking about ALL the law and the prophets, not just the 10 commandments.

I don't see any way that anyone can try to say Jesus is not talking about ALL the law and the prophets in those verses, so those particular verses would be bad ones for the SDA to make any stand on for trying to make people just keep SOME of the law. In the end, these verses help dissolve SDA theology, not help it.

[Amo]

Amo,

You are using Matthew 5:17,18,19 to reinforce your point here on this sabbath thread, but I don't think those verses lead where you want them to.

I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law, but let me ask you, when Jesus is talking about the law and the prophets in those verses, is he talking about ALL the law of Israel and the prophets, or just the 10 commandments?

I believe in those verses he is talking about ALL the law and the prophets, not just the 10 commandments.

I don't see any way that anyone can try to say Jesus is not talking about ALL the law and the prophets in those verses, so those particular verses would be bad ones for the SDA to make any stand on for trying to make people just keep SOME of the law. In the end, these verses help dissolve SDA theology, not help it.

WRONG!, and right. He was talking about the law, the prophets, and the commandments. The law and the prophets are the entire OT. Jesus Christ certainly fulfilled many of the prophecies of the OT, but certify not all of them yet either. He also certainly fulfilled many of the laws concerning the sanctuary and what they pointed to, but not all of them either. The temple is no more, and Jesus taught exactly why. He was the sacrifice that all the temple sacrifices pointed to, it would be an affront to God to go back to those sacrifices concerning the law which have been fulfilled. The church and the saved individual are now the temple of God through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. These truths are clearly taught in NT scripture. The laws pertaining to such have been fulfilled in Christ, and are now to be fulfilled in Christ's followers. Christ was the for-runner, and all who are in Him are now also the sacrifice in Him alone who could be the perfect sacrifice for sin.

Ro 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.


Ga 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The law demands the death of the sinner. In Christ Jesus the sinner is crucified with His Lord by faith. Through the demands of the law, in Christ we become dead to the law, fulfilling its demand. This is by the grace of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and our entering into that experience by faith in Him. This is not in order to continue to break the law, but rather in order that it might be fulfilled within us as it was is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus after saying He came to fulfill the law, then says the following in relation to the commandments of God -

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

After saying the above he expounds upon the commandment not to kill, and then the commandment to not commit adultery. He is referring to the ten commandments in verse 19. He then continues on into explaining that love is the fulfillment of the law, as it always has been. No commandment is or can be fulfilled by ignoring the details or specifications of the commandment itself. To the contrary, our Lord and Savior magnified the commandments in the very verses we are considering and others as well, giving them deeper meaning and application. This without doing away with any part of the commands themselves, as He testified. The apostle Paul teaches the same thing for those who do not twist and manipulate his words to their own ends.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

We do not die in Christ Jesus according to the law, in order to be freed from the law itself which Paul testifies is good and spiritual, but from the condemnation of the law. This, in order to be freed from sin, which is the breaking of the commandments of God. The commandments are to be fulfilled within us, written upon our hearts, not done away with. This is what apostate Christianity demands though, concerning the fourth commandment of God. Preaching that its fulfillment no longer includes the observance of the day, which scripture says nowhere. According to them, its fulfillment and magnification by Christ, includes and demands that the day no longer be observed. This in direct contradiction to the testimony of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. No law or commandment is fulfilled in anyone by ignoring the details and or specifications within it. Apart from which we have the living example of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ concerning the magnification of the law and or commandments of God which also testify against the false teaching of no Sabbath, or Sunday replacement of the Sabbath. Paul gives more testimony regarding the same as well.

Rom8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

It is sin that causes death, not the law. The law is good and spiritual, leading the sinner to Christ. This in order to stop sinning, not stop keeping God's law. We want to die to sin, the death which the law demands, we do not want to die to the law by way of not keeping it. Such is a false gospel.

1 Corinthians 7:18-20Amplified Bible (AMP)

18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to [a]become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was [when he was] called.

[trevans1977]

Amo,

That is a long response.

I can see you are trying to make it seem like Jesus isn't still talking about all the law in verse 19, but that is just plain wrong considering the context of verses 17 and 18. Yes he does expound on some of the 10 commandments after that, but he also expounds on some of the laws that aren't part of the 10 commandments after that as well, like the law about swearing and the law regarding eye for an eye.

And besides verse 19, verse 18 makes it clear not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law till all be fulfilled. Are you picking and choosing what law he is talking about in verse 18? Are you choosing what jots and tittles apply for you to fulfill and which ones he fulfilled?

I think the point I made in my previous post stands strong. In the end, he is talking about all the law in  Matt 5:17, 18, and 19, but you are trying to use those verses to tell use we have to keep SOME of the law.

In the end, I believe the point I made in my previous post stands strong and I think you are painting yourself in a corner regarding your use for those verses.

[Amo]

Amo,

That is a long response.

I can see you are trying to make it seem like Jesus isn't still talking about all the law in verse 19, but that is just plain wrong considering the context of verses 17 and 18. Yes he does expound on some of the 10 commandments after that, but he also expounds on some of the laws that aren't part of the 10 commandments after that as well, like the law about swearing and the law regarding eye for an eye.

And besides verse 19, verse 18 makes it clear not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law till all be fulfilled. Are you picking and choosing what law he is talking about in verse 18? Are you choosing what jots and tittles apply for you to fulfill and which ones he fulfilled?

I think the point I made in my previous post stands strong. In the end, he is talking about all the law in  Matt 5:17, 18, and 19, but you are trying to use those verses to tell use we have to keep SOME of the law.

In the end, I believe the point I made in my previous post stands strong and I think you are painting yourself in a corner regarding your use for those verses.

You are of course free to believe whatever you wish. If all of Christ's words we are discussing were in relation to all the law and prophets as you suggest, can you tell me when all was fulfilled, which alone would allow for changes in the law? When did heaven and earth pass, which also must take place before any of the law would change? If what you are saying is true, and all has not been fulfilled, nor has heaven and earth passed, then we should all be keeping all of the OT laws, correct? This is what Jesus said, is it not?

Jesus did fulfill all of the law, including the ten commandments. That fulfillment established the law of God. All of it. The NT writings explain the changes brought about by that fulfillment. They also admonish all to keep the commandments of God right up to the last book and chapter. Obviously, the fulfillment of the law does not include changing the commandments of God. Nevertheless, we know that the NT does address many changes effected by that fulfillment in many of the other laws pertaining to Israel. How do you work these inconsistencies out in your beliefs?

[trevans1977]

I don't think I have inconsistency in my beliefs.

I came to Jesus, he gave me his Holy Spirit. I talk with him daily. He guides me and helps me repent when I fall short. My relationship with him isn't based on me trying to keep all the OT laws. Jesus writes his laws on my heart, I am led by his Spirit, more and more as I learn to abide in him, though I do fall short often.

I see clearly that in Matthew 5:17,18, and 19 that Jesus is talking about all the OT laws.
I also know clearly that my relationship with Jesus doesn't require me to keep all the OT laws.
I'm not trying to come to Jesus or maintain my relationship with him based on the rules of the old covenant, my relationship with Jesus started when he gave me his Holy Spirit based on my faith in him.

Does my relationship with Jesus depend upon me not being an immoral person? Absolutely. Communion with him will be hindered immediately by immoral behavior. I don't keep the OT Sabbath, does that hinder my daily communion with God? Not to my knowledge.

I don't think God is convicting me to keep the OT Sabbath. I do think a lot of SDA are trying to convict me to keep the OT Sabbath.

[Amo]

I don't think I have inconsistency in my beliefs.

I came to Jesus, he gave me his Holy Spirit. I talk with him daily. He guides me and helps me repent when I fall short. My relationship with him isn't based on me trying to keep all the OT laws. Jesus writes his laws on my heart, I am led by his Spirit, more and more as I learn to abide in him, though I do fall short often.

I see clearly that in Matthew 5:17,18, and 19 that Jesus is talking about all the OT laws.
I also know clearly that my relationship with Jesus doesn't require me to keep all the OT laws.
I'm not trying to come to Jesus or maintain my relationship with him based on the rules of the old covenant, my relationship with Jesus started when he gave me his Holy Spirit based on my faith in him.

Does my relationship with Jesus depend upon me not being an immoral person? Absolutely. Communion with him will be hindered immediately by immoral behavior. I don't keep the OT Sabbath, does that hinder my daily communion with God? Not to my knowledge.

I don't think God is convicting me to keep the OT Sabbath. I do think a lot of SDA are trying to convict me to keep the OT Sabbath.

As already stated, you are certainly free to believe and practice whatever you wish. SDA's do not believe everyone needs to keep all the OT laws, this is your own belief about them, not theirs. The Sabbath predates the OT laws given to Abraham or Israel, it was kept by the early church, and will be kept by the saved in the new heaven and new earth. If you choose to believe that the Holy Spirit leads you to ignore this commandment of God, so be it. SDA's feel it is their responsibility to warn you of the danger of this belief, so they do. As we see it, the Holy Spirit does not convict people to ignore or contradict the Holy Spirit inspired words of scripture. Which scriptures teach us to obey the commandments of God right up to the last book and chapter. We will try to convince you of truth as we see it, but we will never attempt to force God's Sabbath upon you, as Sunday keepers have and do. While they accuse Sabbath keepers of being the ones who seek salvation though the keeping of the law, they themselves are the ones who would and do force their own beliefs upon others by law. Thus revealing their true nature and sentiments. Unfortunately, there are many who profess Christ, whom He never knew.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[DMA]

it was kept by the early church,

No it wasn't. The early Church didn't rest from work on the seventh-day of the week like Seventh-day Adventists do. None of the sources we have from those early centuries show that they did. In fact, what we have available to us in those early sources show unequivocally that what Seventh-day Adventists believe about the sabbath was condemned, even though they knew nothing of the SDA church. Was the sabbath honored among Christians? Certainly it was, and still is by the Churches of the east. But it has never been part of the Church's teaching that Christians must abstain from work on the seventh-day or else they sin against God! That is a Seventh-day Adventist teaching which is wrong.

If you choose to believe that the Holy Spirit leads you to ignore this commandment of God, so be it. SDA's feel it is their responsibility to warn you of the danger of this belief, so they do. As we see it, the Holy Spirit does not convict people to ignore or contradict the Holy Spirit inspired words of scripture.

The Holy Spirit doesn't convict people to ignore or contradict scripture, but it does convict people to ignore and contradict the Seventh-day Adventist interpretation of said scripture. And that's exactly what is going on here. The Seventh-day Adventist interpretation and spin on scripture that you're espousing here Amo is what is being rejected, not the scriptures themselves. Too bad you can't see the difference.

While they accuse Sabbath keepers of being the ones who seek salvation though the keeping of the law

You try keep the sabbath by not working on a day of the week in order to not sin against God. Sounds kind of like salvation through keeping the law to me, something the New Testament certainly condemns (see Galatians 3:1-14). Try as you might, Amo, but every time you try to convict others to keep the sabbath commandment, pointing out the "danger" of not doing so, you are preaching salvation by the works of the law!

[Amo]

it was kept by the early church,

No it wasn't. The early Church didn't rest from work on the seventh-day of the week like Seventh-day Adventists do. None of the sources we have from those early centuries show that they did. In fact, what we have available to us in those early sources show unequivocally that what Seventh-day Adventists believe about the sabbath was condemned, even though they knew nothing of the SDA church. Was the sabbath honored among Christians? Certainly it was, and still is by the Churches of the east. But it has never been part of the Church's teaching that Christians must abstain from work on the seventh-day or else they sin against God! That is a Seventh-day Adventist teaching which is wrong.

If you choose to believe that the Holy Spirit leads you to ignore this commandment of God, so be it. SDA's feel it is their responsibility to warn you of the danger of this belief, so they do. As we see it, the Holy Spirit does not convict people to ignore or contradict the Holy Spirit inspired words of scripture.

The Holy Spirit doesn't convict people to ignore or contradict scripture, but it does convict people to ignore and contradict the Seventh-day Adventist interpretation of said scripture. And that's exactly what is going on here. The Seventh-day Adventist interpretation and spin on scripture that you're espousing here Amo is what is being rejected, not the scriptures themselves. Too bad you can't see the difference.

While they accuse Sabbath keepers of being the ones who seek salvation though the keeping of the law

You try keep the sabbath by not working on a day of the week in order to not sin against God. Sounds kind of like salvation through keeping the law to me, something the New Testament certainly condemns (see Galatians 3:1-14). Try as you might, Amo, but every time you try to convict others to keep the sabbath commandment, pointing out the "danger" of not doing so, you are preaching salvation by the works of the law!

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

There is the commandment. It's not about interpretation, it's about whether we should still keep the commandments or not. I believe and teach that we should, you don't. God will settle this and all matters when He returns.

Early Christian did keep the Sabbath. A great many of them were Jews who accepted their Messiah Jesus Christ. Do you think they just abruptly stopped obeying the fourth commandment? Do you believe they were part of Christ's church? Do you believe they are today? Or do you maintain the wall of separation which Christ came to tare down? Are they the church of Christ, or do you maintain a separation between those who Christ made one?

Will those who show partiality against the royal law as you define it be lost for doing so? Do they then not have to obey the royal law of not showing partiality if they want to be saved? If so, then aren't you teaching salvation by the works of your royal law? If not, then isn't everyone saved since there is no standard for anyone to meet? Or is everyone now reliant upon your definition of the new standards according to your church I suppose, rather than scripture?

Romans 3:18-20King James Version (KJV)
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

All the world is guilty before God being condemned by the unchangeable standard of the law. Their salvation from that condemnation is in Christ alone. They are not saved in order to remain law breakers, but as new creatures in Christ Jesus to become law obeyers as their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was. Those who are saved in Christ can still sin, because the law still stands. Though they may obtain forgiveness and renewal through Christ alone.

1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We can still sin, because the law is still the standard. that has not gone away, and it will not. Not before heaven and earth pass, as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ testified.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[Amo]

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-41025700

Polish bishops for total ban on Sunday shopping

Poland's leading Catholic bishop has spoken out in favour of an almost complete ban on shops opening on Sunday, amid growing public controversy over the proposal.

"Free Sundays are what all Catholics, non-Catholics and non-believers need," Archbishop Stanislaw Gadecki told Polish Radio ahead of a meeting of the Bishops Conference on Friday, which is expected to support the ban.................

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

I don't think I have inconsistency in my beliefs.

I came to Jesus, he gave me his Holy Spirit. I talk with him daily. He guides me and helps me repent when I fall short. My relationship with him isn't based on me trying to keep all the OT laws. Jesus writes his laws on my heart, I am led by his Spirit, more and more as I learn to abide in him, though I do fall short often.

I see clearly that in Matthew 5:17,18, and 19 that Jesus is talking about all the OT laws.
I also know clearly that my relationship with Jesus doesn't require me to keep all the OT laws.
I'm not trying to come to Jesus or maintain my relationship with him based on the rules of the old covenant, my relationship with Jesus started when he gave me his Holy Spirit based on my faith in him.

Does my relationship with Jesus depend upon me not being an immoral person? Absolutely. Communion with him will be hindered immediately by immoral behavior. I don't keep the OT Sabbath, does that hinder my daily communion with God? Not to my knowledge.

I don't think God is convicting me to keep the OT Sabbath. I do think a lot of SDA are trying to convict me to keep the OT Sabbath.

You convince me fully that you believe every word you say about yourself. It wasn't difficult in the least.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

I don't think I have inconsistency in my beliefs.
I came to Jesus, he gave me his Holy Spirit.
My relationship with Jesus started when he gave me his Holy Spirit based on my faith in him.
Does my relationship with Jesus depend upon me not being an immoral person? Absolutely.

Four living first principles of 'the old covenant' in all its glory...

[Amo]

http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/sundaylaw.html

The following quotes are from the above link.

Poland Considers Ban on Sunday Shopping

THE WARSAW VOICE

December, 1999 "Solidarity Election Action (AWS), the co-ruling party in Poland, seeks to ban trade on Sundays. In practice such a ban would hit supermarkets, a form of mass retailing unknown to Poles before the collapse of communism. When polled, 60 percent of respondents said they wanted to do their shopping on Sunday. ...The AWS pressure for this unpopular legislation is a result of its ideological profile. It is dominated by Catholic leaders, many of whom originated from the trade union movement, allergic to the expansion of the Western lifestyle in the homeland of the pope. They use arguments of a religious nature (remember the Sabbath to keep it holy) as well as socioeconomic....In fact they are pressing for a fundamentalist solution to the problem stemming from a literary interpretation of the third commandment."
WARSAW (CWNews.com) -

Polish lawmakers proposed a draft bill on Thursday (Oct. 2001) that would require stores to remain closed on Sunday in order to protect people forced to work on Sunday, a day of rest for Christians.
The bill, sponsored by 21 deputies, has the support of the Polish bishop's conference, citing Pope John Paul II's recent remarks that Poles are too often converging on so-called hypermarkets on Sundays when they should instead be attending Mass and spending time in spiritual pursuits. More than 90 percent of Poles are Catholic.
Jerzy Gwizdz, one of the authors of the draft, acknowledged that respect for Sunday as a Christian holiday was one of the reasons behind the proposal. But the measure also aims at "protecting a big number of people who are forced to work on Sundays."
Warsaw Voice

Trade Limitation, Remember the Sabbath Day Labor code introducing new regulations permitting only small stores-with five employees, or less-to operate on Sundays and holidays, the president has made his intentions clear in vetoing this bill. (Sept. 30, 2001)
Polish church leaders criticize veto of Sunday shopping ban
By Jonathan Luxmoore
Catholic News Service
WARSAW, Poland (CNS) --
October, 2001

"Polish church leaders criticized President Aleksander Kwasniewski for vetoing legislation that would have prohibited shopping on Sundays.
"This veto contradicts the Ten Commandments and our nation's centuries-old tradition," said Jesuit Father Adam Szulc, spokesman for the Polish bishops' conference.

"It will not help Catholics, especially those employed in supermarkets, to observe Sunday's sacred character. Instead, it will force them to work."

"The Jesuit priest reacted to the president's Oct. 11 veto of a Labor Code amendment, which would have restricted Sunday shopping to small essential-service outlets only.

"Father Szulc said the veto violated norms in the European Union, and he dismissed claims that the ban would have worsened Poland's state budget deficit and driven up unemployment.

"However, Kwasniewski's office said Oct. 11 that the president had exercised his veto after being advised the measure could cause 16,000 job losses.

"With rising unemployment and falling economic growth in our country, a ban on activities by large trade establishments and service enterprises on Sundays and holidays would have caused economic hardships," the statement added.

"Such a ban would have inflicted additional burdens on the state budget in unemployment allowances and insurance, as well as a cut in turnover in important sectors of the economy," it said.

"In an Oct. 4 letter to Kwasniewski, the bishops' conference said Sunday shop opening violated religious freedom and caused a "serious conflict of conscience" for Catholics.

"It added that the legally guaranteed celebration of Sunday was a "lasting, universal element of Europe's spiritual heritage," and its neglect would "lead to a slackening of family bonds and (to) pathologies."

WHO WAS BEHIND THIS BILL?
We just read that it was the Polish Catholic Bishop's conference, citing Pope John Paul II's recent remarks that Poles are too often converging on so-called hypermarkets on Sundays when they should instead be attending Mass and spending time in spiritual pursuits." It's the Catholic dominated AWS that's pushing Sunday laws, for religious reasons.
The battle continues in Poland.
The above was NEWS about the Polish Catholic Bishop's Conference, and their attempts to pass Sunday legislation. (Oct. 2001)


The US also has a United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
See the link here.

Because the Pope's Sunday Letter "Dies Domini", says:


"Therefore, also in the particular circumstances of our own time, Christians will naturally strive to ensure that civil legislation respects their duty to keep Sunday holy." (#67)
They have changed the Catechism of the Catholic Church to read:
"In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."(#2188)



https://www.thebostonpilot.com/article.asp?ID=180902

Warsaw, Poland, Nov 27, 2017 CNA/EWTN News.- Poland could gradually end Sunday shopping in the next three years, if lawmakers approve a bill under consideration in the national legislature.

Backers of the legislation want to make it possible for workers to spend more time with their families, the British magazine The Catholic Herald reports. The bill was initially supported by trade unions, then received support from the Law and Justice Party, Poland's ruling party.

Poland's lower house, the Sejm, passed the bill by a vote of 254 to 156. It still requires approval from the Senate and President Andzrej Duda.

The bill would allow Sunday shopping only on the first and last Sunday of each month through the end of 2018, then allow shopping only on the last Sunday of the month in 2019, then ban all Sunday shopping in 2020. There would still be exemptions for some bakeries and online stores. Sundays before holidays like Christmas will also be exempt from the ban

The bishops' conference of Poland said that the bill did not go far enough, arguing that everyone should have the freedom from Sunday work.


http://wjla.com/news/nation-world/poland-to-phase-out-sunday-shopping-by-2020-11-24-2017

WARSAW, Poland (AP) —
Poland's lawmakers on Friday approved a law that will phase out Sunday shopping by the year 2020 despite criticism that it may eliminate thousands of jobs.
Proposed by trade unions that want shop workers to spend more time with their families, the bill got support from the ruling party that adheres to Catholic values. Critics say it would negatively affect Poland's economy, eliminating tens of thousands of jobs, and hurt supermarket chains, which are mostly western.

[Amo]

http://www.markofbeast.net/page3.htm

Two years after Pope Francis launched Laudato Si, the Vatican's plea to 'save the Earth', People of all faiths are unified globally to beat climate change (June 2017)
"Two years after the release of Laudato Si-and long after its intense global attention has faded-it's worth asking: is the uncompromising and unprecedented Catholic teaching document fulfilling Vatican expectations by uniting leaders of all faiths, along with their billions of congregants, to take decisive climate action 'in care for our common home'? The answer is a qualified 'yes'."

It is well known that in his climate encyclical, pope Francis linked Sunday rest with 'caring for the planet'. So the Vatican's plan to enforce the Sunday law has taken on a very clever tactic. And that is to convince the world that we need urgent action to 'save the planet'. And what better way to help the environment, than to shut down one day a week? And guess which day that will be? Yes, Sunday! And what has this climate movement spearheaded by the Vatican done? It has UNITED the world, the churches and religions in one 'common cause'. Very clever indeed! But God's true people will not be fooled, as our lives are rooted upon the Word of God. And we know that the 7th day (our Saturday) is the only day in which God blessed as the Sabbath day, NOT Sunday. So we will never join with Babylon in this so called 'common cause'.

Link provided from above link - https://psmag.com/social-justice/growing-concern-over-climate-change-is-creating-interfaith-dialogue

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Two years after Pope Francis launched Laudato Si, the Vatican's plea to 'save the Earth', People of all faiths are unified globally to beat climate change (June 2017)
"Two years after the release of Laudato Si-and long after its intense global attention has faded-it's worth asking: is the uncompromising and unprecedented Catholic teaching document fulfilling Vatican expectations by uniting leaders of all faiths, along with their billions of congregants, to take decisive climate action 'in care for our common home'? The answer is a qualified 'yes'."

It is well known that in his climate encyclical, pope Francis linked Sunday rest with 'caring for the planet'. So the Vatican's plan to enforce the Sunday law has taken on a very clever tactic. And that is to convince the world that we need urgent action to 'save the planet'. And what better way to help the environment, than to shut down one day a week? And guess which day that will be? Yes, Sunday! And what has this climate movement spearheaded by the Vatican done? It has UNITED the world, the churches and religions in one 'common cause'. Very clever indeed! But God's true people will not be fooled, as our lives are rooted upon the Word of God. And we know that the 7th day (our Saturday) is the only day in which God blessed as the Sabbath day, NOT Sunday. So we will never join with Babylon in this so called 'common cause'.

You have joined with Babylon in its 'Everyone's Bible' in which the papacy has UNITED the world, the churches and religions in one 'common cause' warned against in Galatians 4:10.

[Amo]

You have joined with Babylon in its 'Everyone's Bible' in which the papacy has UNITED the world, the churches and religions in one 'common cause' warned against in Galatians 4:10.

If you are speaking to me, your are delusional.

[current occupant2]

The legalism of Saturday keeping is well documented from the Seventh-Day Adventist denomination.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

The legalism of Saturday keeping is well documented from the Seventh-Day Adventist denomination.

And no less the legalism of Sunday worshipping from papal and protestant denominations including the Seventh-Day Adventist denomination. ALL 'christianity' ACTS anti-Christ; everybody SEES it except 'christianity'.

[Alan]

And no less the legalism of Sunday worshipping from papal and protestant denominations including the Seventh-Day Adventist denomination. ALL 'christianity' ACTS anti-Christ; everybody SEES it except 'christianity'.

Who does that, and who exactly are you pointing your finger at?

[Amo]

The legalism of Saturday keeping is well documented from the Seventh-Day Adventist denomination.

Your one sentence statement, certainly is not any reliable documentation. Please do share the same.

[Amo]

Who does that, and who exactly are you pointing your finger at?

He believes SDA's are really Sunday keepers and exalters in disguise because EGW taught that Christ rose on Sunday instead of the Sabbath.

[current occupant2]

Your one sentence statement, certainly is not any reliable documentation. Please do share the same.

Thankyou for asking nicely.

We will start with the sabbath keeping guidelines supplied on the main website of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 

https://www.adventist.org/en/information/official-statements/documents/article/go/-/sabbath-observance/

These "guidelines are loosely based on the close to 500 instructions on sabbath keeping from the sda prophet that can be researched in the Index to the writings of Ellen White.

They don't even come close to the instructions that God gave the Children of Jacob when He gave THEM sabbath as described in Nehemiah 9:14

.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Amo:

237. On Sunday, our participation in the Eucharist has special importance. Sunday, like the Jewish Sabbath, is meant to be a day which heals our relationships with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world. Sunday is the day of the Resurrection, the "first day" of the new creation, whose first fruits are the Lord's risen humanity, the pledge of the final transfiguration of all created reality. It also proclaims "man's eternal rest in God".[168] In this way, Christian spirituality incorporates the value of relaxation and festivity. We tend to demean contemplative rest as something unproductive and unnecessary, but this is to do away with the very thing which is most important about work: its meaning. We are called to include in our work a dimension of receptivity and gratuity, which is quite different from mere inactivity. Rather, it is another way of working, which forms part of our very essence. It protects human action from becoming empty activism; it also prevents that unfettered greed and sense of isolation which make us seek personal gain to the detriment of all else. The law of weekly rest forbade work on the seventh day, "so that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your maidservant, and the stranger, may be refreshed" (Ex 23:12). Rest opens our eyes to the larger picture and gives us renewed sensitivity to the rights of others. And so the day of rest, centred on the Eucharist, sheds it light on the whole week, and motivates us to greater concern for nature and the poor. (ENCYCLICAL LETTER
LAUDATO SI'
OF THE HOLY FATHER
FRANCIS
ON CARE FOR OUR COMMON HOME)

Sounds so very nice. Of course, the seventh day Sabbath is not Jewish, being instituted 2000 years before there ever was a Jew for all of humanity (Gen 2:1-3). A blessing was pronounced upon all who would keep it even when the Jews themselves were the chosen of God (Isa 56:1-8). It will also be kept by all the saved in the new heaven and new earth (Isa 66:22 & 23). The problem of the above quote of course then, is that the seventh day Sabbath was never meant to be replaced by another day. The Holy scriptures never declare any such thing.

The Sunday rest was and is declared and established by the will of man alone, for the purpose of placing man himself in the place or even above God. Its inculcation is of purely human design, not only apart from God, but in direct contradiction to the will of God. It is a direct manifestation of the man of sin, and all sinners who will place themselves and their own works above those of God. Its observance by force on a global scale will be a fit representation by all who submit to the same, of their defiance and rebellion against God's authority, in favor of the leadership and guidance of fallen humanity itself controlled and manipulated by the evil one himself. Entering into God's rest, includes submitting to His rightful authority. The choice to be made in the end will be simple as pie. Either submit to the authority of God's word, or submit to the usurped authority of fallen humanity under the direct influence of the one who first refused God's benevolent authority.

GE:
Amo the Seventh day Adventist, you are o so completely blind, deaf and insensitive to your o so perfect oneness and identity with papal Catholicism! It's impossible to tell, reading, which is the pope and which the SDA speaking, writing, preaching, proclaiming, authoritatively CLAIMING and DEMANDING!

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

It is to get sick of.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

But I have to do my job. I hope for not too long to come. Then the SDAs will be able to relax and again go on lekker ploetering in their muddy pig sty.
Yes, I could have used a better word than 'muddy'. But we all have our healthy imagination.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

I hope to get intolerably offensive; it may shorten my term of employment, and I at last may retire.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Amo:

He believes SDA's are really Sunday keepers and exalters in disguise because EGW taught that Christ rose on Sunday instead of the Sabbath.

GE:
She taught more than that, and you know it full well! She taught about Sunday being the day to remember and joy over in heaven and on earth forevermore! Which, so far as I know, she NOT ONCE wrote about or of the Seventh Day Sabbath!

Hypocrite, why don't you tell everything?!

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Amo:

If you are speaking to me, your are delusional.

GE:
The delusional are those who reject the correct, past translations, and except and accept the universally orchestrated, FRAUDULENT translations since of the 20th century, particularly and with greatest impact on the passages having to do with the days and times on those days and dates in Christ's Last Passover of Yahweh Suffering---more than three dozen passages ADULTERATED to fit and serve Sunday reverence.

In which delusion the SDA are conspirators and collaborators.