Can we discuss creativity in the marriage bed?

[musician_for_God]

I'm guessing not, so please don't think I'll be offended if you want me to go away.  I will cease this thread if asked to.

Christian BDSM.  I'm guessing most of you are thinking:  

It's something my wife really wanted me to try, in sort of being more old-fashioned in my role as husband.  As in, "Husband is master, wife is subordinate".  I have to say I don't see anything unChristian about that -- really, it's the feminist movement and its current fallout in married homes that is unChristian.  But the RESPONSE I have gotten from my wife, both emotionally and -- as follows emotional connection -- sexually, is just amazing! She is suddenly hanging-on-the-edge-of-her-seat-with-wide-eyes interested in me now, as if we just met!  (We've been together for four years.)  She likes being given orders, both domestic and sexual.  Again, though I may be envied by other men for this, it isn't wrong / unChristian in my opinion.  But it IS extremely rejuvenating our relationship.  There is a lot of sudden clarity that occurs when spouses commit to clearly-defined roles: leader, follower.  And that -- not to repeat myself too much -- is biblically advocated.  We are going about this new experience in a very God-focused and Christian-thinking way.  I tell her Christ is her TRUE master, while I am her master secondarily. She says thinking of me that way makes her feel much, much closer to me, and more loving toward me as well. And it really shows!

And if any of you are thinking this isn't love, you're so, so wrong.  Lovingly is exactly the way we practice this, and it is love that has exploded anew after trying this.  There are some Christians who believe in BDSM, but for reasons I myself well understand, they are very few in number.  I was very dubious about it for years myself.  But I think a certain way of doing it can be righteous.  And, yes, there are also a lot of horribly unChristian ways to practice BDSM that one must strictly avoid -- after all, God is watching, and we need to respect and know that at all times, in our proper subservience to Him.

[JohnDB]

I don't have to live with either one of ya so it really isn't my concern. I'm way too preoccupied with pleasing my wife to concern myself with your house.

[johndoo]

The great thing is the bible doesn't forbid anything that two married persons consent upon.
The newness may wear off in time like many things, but is part of your story as a couple.

[DaveW]

The great thing is the bible doesn't forbid anything that two married persons consent upon.

Not exactly.  IN Acts 15, gentile believers are forbidden to commit "pornia" which is usually translated "fornication." But the word means a LOT more than just premarital sex.

Pornia (as used in the Jewish greek speaking diaspora) included ALL that violated the Torah's sexual commands. No sex during menses. No animals. No additional sex partners. (threesomes) And no avoiding frequent sex.

[musician_for_God]

The great thing is the bible doesn't forbid anything that two married persons consent upon.

Not exactly.  IN Acts 15, gentile believers are forbidden to commit "pornia" which is usually translated "fornication." But the word means a LOT more than just premarital sex.

Pornia (as used in the Jewish greek speaking diaspora) included ALL that violated the Torah's sexual commands. No sex during menses. No animals. No additional sex partners. (threesomes) And no avoiding frequent sex.

None of this remotely cramps my style -- but about "ALL that violated the Torah's sexual commands", I've heard that vaginal-entry-only is a Torah command.  Is that right?  I believe it was that "sodomy" had varying breadths of definition back then, sometimes even including oral sex between a man and his wife.

If so, it would be not, by any means, be among my greatest sins, I can say most surely! (I have many areas of imperfection/sin, like not totally trusting God to provide the bodily needs of food and shelter, etc. Money is often easier to trust in, but that trust is quite sinful.)

Ah, but that is my personal business, between God and me.  From this thread, I just want to glean the relevant doctrines.

The broader issue: Should Acts 15 be taken today by the Christian Church to be advocating Torah legalism in the marriage bed, including the broadest definitions of sodomy, i.e. oral sex?

[DaveW]

about "ALL that violated the Torah's sexual commands", I've heard that vaginal-entry-only is a Torah command.  Is that right?

No.

I believe it was that "sodomy" had varying breadths of definition back then, sometimes even including oral sex between a man and his wife.

That was a later church invention. O/S actually is refered to at least 4 times in the Song of Solomon (3 times him to her, once her to him) While the actual hebrew wording is not that clearly understood, the consensus is/was that it refered to anal intercourse. (which is medically REALLY bad)

Should Acts 15 be taken today by the Christian Church to be advocating Torah legalism in the marriage bed, including the broadest definitions of sodomy, i.e. oral sex?

Acts 15 IMO is binding on the gentile church, but one must be careful to go back to the definitions of the terms as used in the first century, and not add to or take away from those definitions lest we become just like the pharasees who kept adding to the commandments.  There is no indication that pornia would have been intrepreted to include O/S in the first century.  

[Scott1]

Thanks for sharing Musician!

In my opinion there is nothing fundamentally wrong with what you and your wife are doing...  provided some steps are taken to protect the marriage.

In my experience, this sort of "creativity" can lead a couple astray if clear boundaries are not set --- and open and honest discussions about reality vs. fantasy.

Problems may arise in the future if the line between reality and fantasy is blurred --- the disrespect inherent in the fantasy can bleed  into real life, and that is only the beginning of potential problems.

The worst aspect of this type of behavior inside a marriage is that (in my experience) it leads one down a road that can lead to adultery.  Couples continually need to "up the ante" and find more and more bizarre ways to turn each other on --- "regular" sex becomes boring and eventually becomes something of the past.

Don't want to get into too much detail -- as it sounds like you have a good Christian foundation -- but I hope you and your wife pray on this.

Peace,
S

[musician_for_God]

Thanks for sharing Musician!

In my opinion there is nothing fundamentally wrong with what you and your wife are doing...  provided some steps are taken to protect the marriage.

In my experience, this sort of "creativity" can lead a couple astray if clear boundaries are not set --- and open and honest discussions about reality vs. fantasy.

Problems may arise in the future if the line between reality and fantasy is blurred --- the disrespect inherent in the fantasy can bleed  into real life, and that is only the beginning of potential problems.

The worst aspect of this type of behavior inside a marriage is that (in my experience) it leads one down a road that can lead to adultery.  Couples continually need to "up the ante" and find more and more bizarre ways to turn each other on --- "regular" sex becomes boring and eventually becomes something of the past.

Don't want to get into too much detail -- as it sounds like you have a good Christian foundation -- but I hope you and your wife pray on this.

Peace,
S

Hey, I really appreciate those sentiments and that you shared them -- and I share them totally!  I am powerfully aware of lines that absolutely cannot be crossed in getting "creative".  The devil likes to bate us to go this way or that, from behavior that is harmless to that which is harmful, and sinful.  And I'm keeping a sharp eye out for exactly that.

I think the way I see it is that my wife seems to want to more powerfully feel my "husbandhood", if that makes sense.  She wants to as viscerally and vividly as possible, feel that she is my wife and that I am her husband.  And that's a good thing!  It doesn't make us want anyone else, but instead reinforces our unity.  

[Scott1]

Continued happiness to you and your wife.

God bless and keep you both!

-Scott

[Link]

The great thing is the bible doesn't forbid anything that two married persons consent upon.

Not exactly.  IN Acts 15, gentile believers are forbidden to commit "pornia" which is usually translated "fornication." But the word means a LOT more than just premarital sex.

Pornia (as used in the Jewish greek speaking diaspora) included ALL that violated the Torah's sexual commands. No sex during menses. No animals. No additional sex partners. (threesomes) And no avoiding frequent sex.

I've often wondered whether 'pornia' is used narrowly or to include all of Leviticus 18.  In Acts 15, the Leviticus 18 idea makes sense since they seem to be appealing to what the Old Testament said about Gentiles, and the Gentiles were driven out of the land for a wide variety of sexual practices. 

Do you have any sources I could look at that back up the broader definition of fornication?  Maybe specific quotes from Greek or a secondary source (preferably online) that I could look up?  Maybe even a quote from the Septuigint?

[Link]

None of this remotely cramps my style -- but about "ALL that violated the Torah's sexual commands", I've heard that vaginal-entry-only is a Torah command.  Is that right?  I believe it was that "sodomy" had varying breadths of definition back then, sometimes even including oral sex between a man and his wife.

Jewish tradition, if I am not mistaken, is that emission must be done in the birth canal.  These kind of things come from the Talmud and other writings-- writings written by Jewish legal scholars who have a wide variety of often contradictory opinions on the Old Testament.   

The Old Testament doesn't say anything, that I know of, forbidden any sex act between married couples.  Both Old and New Testaments teach to love your neighbor as you love yourself.  The New Testament teaches husbands to love their wives like their own bodies. 

The broader issue: Should Acts 15 be taken today by the Christian Church to be advocating Torah legalism in the marriage bed, including the broadest definitions of sodomy, i.e. oral sex?

The implication in Acts 15 is that the apostles and elders tried to keep the law, and that they were wondering whether Gentiles who came to Christ had to have a relationship with God through the covenant with Moses, and therefore be circumcised and obligated to keep the law, or not.  The issue was whether they had to become Jewish prostlytes to live righteously.   Non-Christian Jews debated this issue for the centuries before and after Acts 15, and arrived at the conclusion that since Gentiles had a covenant with God through Noah, they could be righteous and still be Gentiles.  They came up with 7 Noachide principles for righteous Gentiles, one of which had to do with not eating live animals.  All of the principles were supposed to be based on what the Torah requires of Gentiles.

I think we see similar reasoning in Acts 15.  James shows that Gentiles can indeed have a relationship with God without becoming part of the nation of Israel when he shows a quote from the Old Testament (from a verse in Amos, which at the time did not have vowel pointing, and he takes prophetically to refer to 'Adam--or nations of men, rather than 'Edom--two proncunciations for the same word.)  The Lord's name can be called upon nations without them being Israel-- without them being circumcised and commanded to keep the law. 

The requirements for Gentiles in the passage match up with requirements in the Old Testament.  God made a covenant with Noah-- so no idolatry.  It was wickedness for Gentiles to worship idols in the Old Testament.  Abstain from things strangled and from blood-- see the covenant with Noah, the ancestor of Jew and Gentile alike.  Abstain from fornication.  See Leviticus 18.  Gentiles were expelled from the land for doing these things, so they are sins for Gentiles as well.

But notice oral sex isn't in the list.  Neither are other practices between husband and wife.  The passage forbids sexual relations between men and certain close relatives, one's neighbor's wife, other men, animals, etc.  There is nothing for or against oral sex in the passage.

The Bible does not say 'sodomy' is sin.  It tells about men of Sodom wanting to 'know' angels visiting lot.  Sodomy in our legal definitions is named after this.  The definition came to include certain sex acts even if between a married couple.  The word 'sodomy' doesn't show  up in the KJV, and I am not aware of a translation that uses it.  Maybe 'sodomite' or something like that could be used for a catamite/malakos or maybe an arsenokoite.