Feminism and double standards in the church

[ObeyTheGospel]

I recently asked a question about a man's intelligence vs a woman's intelligence and somehow it turned into a debate about the treatment of women. Here is a recent comment that was posted by a Christian guy:

"I'm sorry, but we all need to man up and respect women no matter what, myself included."

According to this guy, men need to man up and respect women no matter what. Now, when I was growing up I would often have it rammed down my throat that women should be respected. I was never told that men should be respected, only women. And I now see this feminist mentality inside the church.

Why not say that both men and women need to be respected no matter what? Why only say women need to be respected? When it comes to the treatment of men and women in the West, is there a certain part of peoples brain that completely melts down? Why does the West have this mentality that women should be respected no matter what, but not men? Could it be related to decades of brainwashing by the feminists? After all, feminism is most popular in the West, so it stands to reason that the West would have this big double standard: "Respect women no matter what, but don't do it for men."

I once heard a male pastor complaining that men in America are afraid of commitment. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Why would men NOT be afraid of getting married? The feminists have their claws in the legal system--a system that is hell bent on taking away a father's rights and helping the wife empty the man's bank account.

I hope I don't come across as sexist. But this is a grim reality that cannot be denied. Once upon a time most women were loving, beautiful creatures. They were a man's strength. They were the women you would die for. But feminism has poisoned everything. We need to abolish this double standard that women should be respected no matter what. I say that BOTH men and women should be respected.

If you disagree, feel free to leave your comments :)

[Cally]

I came across an interesting article: Why every man needs a pre-nup.

http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/133_dating_advice.html

With the bias against husbands, a man has to be out of his mind to get married without a pre-nup. I've heard horror stories about this from several coworkers.

I remember reading an article about how to protect yourself from false accusations of rape, such as recording a phone call in which you casually talk light conversation about the time sleeping together (pardon the euphamism) to present as evidence . . . just in case. That can happen in marriages too.

The problem is that, for some men, a woman has to be an axe-murderer before they snap out of white knight syndrome. A good woman is so precious and should be protected . . . but yikes, some of the dangerous ones have the world on their side now. It's not tradition to praise a man for saving his own neck, but it's us guys that need the saving these days.  

[chosenone]

I am totally against prenups however, and if a man asked me for one, I wouldnt marry him. As far as I am concerned, when you marry, everything that either of you has is now 'ours', and not 'mine' or 'yours'. Having said that I do agree with many of the other points.

[MeMyself]

I am totally against prenups however, and if a man asked me for one, I wouldnt marry him. As far as I am concerned, when you marry, everything that either of you has is now 'ours', and not 'mine' or 'yours'. Having said that I do agree with many of the other points.

Yeah..I agree the bit about "his money" has me feeling a little  . A woman who has dedicated her life to staying at home and tending her children, but has no income, should be protected and allowed to have part of what the household income is.  I am NOT advocating for divorce, or anything like that, just saying that in the most dire situations when a woman MUST leave due to safety issues and she has not been the main bread winner, she should get her share.

I 100% agree that BOTH the sexes need to be shown respect and treated as God's children, precious and priceless.  It is simply ridiculous to only show respect to ONE gender and not the other!

[Cally]

I am totally against prenups however, and if a man asked me for one, I wouldnt marry him. As far as I am concerned, when you marry, everything that either of you has is now 'ours', and not 'mine' or 'yours'. Having said that I do agree with many of the other points.

Might I suggest reading the link to the article I gave? Women marrying men, divorcing them for virtually any reason they want and absolutely ruining his life . . . it happens all the time.

I knew a man whose wife divorced him and he was required to pay $90,000 a year for child support, which for him was completely impossible.

Sorry, but being against a man protecting himself . . . 

[chosenone]

I am totally against prenups however, and if a man asked me for one, I wouldn't marry him. As far as I am concerned, when you marry, everything that either of you has is now 'ours', and not 'mine' or 'yours'. Having said that I do agree with many of the other points.

Might I suggest reading the link to the article I gave? Women marrying men, divorcing them for virtually any reason they want and absolutely ruining his life . . . it happens all the time.

I knew a man whose wife divorced him and he was required to pay $90,000 a year for child support, which for him was completely impossible.

Sorry, but being against a man protecting himself . . . 

Sorry but to me, prenups are totally and absolutely against the Biblical idea of marriage for life. They are preparing for divorce before the marriage has even taken place. When I married my second husband, I was the one with the house, while he had let his ex have their house(that's the sort of guy he is). My solicitor said, slightly in jest, "I am doing good rates for pre-nups" No thanks I said, not for me. 'My' house is now 'our' house.
In the UK the judge can overrule prenups anyway, because other criteria are more important, such as the children's needs for a home and living costs.

[Cally]

I am totally against prenups however, and if a man asked me for one, I wouldn't marry him. As far as I am concerned, when you marry, everything that either of you has is now 'ours', and not 'mine' or 'yours'. Having said that I do agree with many of the other points.

Might I suggest reading the link to the article I gave? Women marrying men, divorcing them for virtually any reason they want and absolutely ruining his life . . . it happens all the time.

I knew a man whose wife divorced him and he was required to pay $90,000 a year for child support, which for him was completely impossible.

Sorry, but being against a man protecting himself . . . 

Sorry but to me, prenups are totally and absolutely against the Biblical idea of marriage for life. They are preparing for divorce before the marriage has even taken place. When I married my second husband, I was the one with the house, while he had let his ex have their house(that's the sort of guy he is). My solicitor said, slightly in jest, "I am doing good rates for pre-nups" No thanks I said, not for me. 'My' house is now 'our' house.
In the UK the judge can overrule prenups anyway, because other criteria are more important, such as the children's needs for a home and living costs.

It's not "preparing for divorce," or else why would they even get married after making a pre-nup?

Like I said, I recommend the article, here's the attitude: if you choose to leave the marriage, then you resume where you left off.

That is, a woman cannot completely--and I mean completely--ruin a man's life absolutely on a whim as happens over and over and over again because of an incredibly obvious bias against husbands.

[Cally]

I am totally against prenups however, and if a man asked me for one, I wouldnt marry him. As far as I am concerned, when you marry, everything that either of you has is now 'ours', and not 'mine' or 'yours'. Having said that I do agree with many of the other points.

Yeah..I agree the bit about "his money" has me feeling a little  . A woman who has dedicated her life to staying at home and tending her children, but has no income, should be protected and allowed to have part of what the household income is.  I am NOT advocating for divorce, or anything like that, just saying that in the most dire situations when a woman MUST leave due to safety issues and she has not been the main bread winner, she should get her share.

James says that people should take care of widows, and I think a woman unjustly divorced is in the same category.

If a man ditches his wife and children with nowhere to turn, we would call that a sob story all right and rightly so.

Is it not possible for you to recognize the tragedy of this scenario also: a woman divorces her husband (70% of divorces are initiated by the wife), takes away the children, he has to pay her so much that he loses everything he has and then some?

So get a pre-nup that the two can agree upon that strikes a middle ground. Sure, if the husband wants to take off for no reason after the wife put some real energy into supporting him as a housewife, there might be provisions for a settlement.

[wolflet7]

ObeyTheGospel, just to clarify, I NEVER said men shouldn't be respected.  To put it simply...

It is OUR Christian duty to love one another.  Jesus didn't say, "Love one another, unless they are trying to domesticate/dominant you".  If by chance you have read that in the Bible, I would love to see which version you read.  Manning up is following Jesus and trusting that He will provide a way for all your problems, this one included. 

Do I think some men need to be respected more? Of course.  But saying that it isn't right to respect another gender because you feel as if they aren't respecting your gender from what you saw is childish.  If Jesus had that mindset, he would have struck the Pharisees down and not died on the cross for our sins.  Would you want that to happen?  An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.  Repaying wrong for wrong leads to nowhere and can worsen the situation. 

Again, if we judged a whole gender by the nature of a select few, then don't you think that gender would judge us in the same manner?  I'm not saying that's right because it is not, but it probably would happen, as you are doing with the female gender right now.  So if females judged the whole male population by a select few of us "men", they could say that we are selfish, cheating perverts.  That wouldn't be right, would it?

If you don't like the way a female is treating a male, don't have any contact with her at all.  It's that simple.  Find some of the better, more respectful females.  I can guarantee you that they are out there. 

To recap, in a sense I am not disagreeing with you and Cally in the fact that some women do domesticate/dominant some males.  However, we must love one another, as Jesus said.  Absolutely NO excuses or contradictory footnotes with that verse.  What good will it do to point fingers and make accusations and judgments?  Doing so will lead to nowhere and we would be abandoning OUR Christian duty in doing such.

ObeyTheGospel, I feel as if this is deeper than the pointless joke the speaker made in your previous topic.  Is there a problem you have had to deal with pertaining to this topic?  If so, I would gladly pray for you. 

[chosenone]

I have to say, that thinking of all the marriages that I know, very few are ones where the woman is in anyway dominating the man. There are a few, but not the majority, and of course there are also those where the man dominates the woman in an ungodly way.

[Cally]

ObeyTheGospel, just to clarify, I NEVER said men shouldn't be respected.  To put it simply...

It is OUR Christian duty to love one another.  Jesus didn't say, "Love one another, unless they are trying to domesticate/dominant you".  If by chance you have read that in the Bible, I would love to see which version you read.  Manning up is following Jesus and trusting that He will provide a way for all your problems, this one included. 

Do I think some men need to be respected more? Of course.  But saying that it isn't right to respect another gender because you feel as if they aren't respecting your gender from what you saw is childish.  If Jesus had that mindset, he would have struck the Pharisees down and not died on the cross for our sins.  Would you want that to happen?  An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.  Repaying wrong for wrong leads to nowhere and can worsen the situation. 

Again, if we judged a whole gender by the nature of a select few, then don't you think that gender would judge us in the same manner?  I'm not saying that's right because it is not, but it probably would happen, as you are doing with the female gender right now.  So if females judged the whole male population by a select few of us "men", they could say that we are selfish, cheating perverts.  That wouldn't be right, would it?

If you don't like the way a female is treating a male, don't have any contact with her at all.  It's that simple.  Find some of the better, more respectful females.  I can guarantee you that they are out there. 

To recap, in a sense I am not disagreeing with you and Cally in the fact that some women do domesticate/dominant some males.  However, we must love one another, as Jesus said.  Absolutely NO excuses or contradictory footnotes with that verse.  What good will it do to point fingers and make accusations and judgments?  Doing so will lead to nowhere and we would be abandoning OUR Christian duty in doing such.

ObeyTheGospel, I feel as if this is deeper than the pointless joke the speaker made in your previous topic.  Is there a problem you have had to deal with pertaining to this topic?  If so, I would gladly pray for you. 

You didn't ask me, wolflet, but the issue is that those pastor's are crowd-pleasers. Unfortunately, men are so quiet about their needs while the women are vocal about their grievances that the pastor is only going to gripe at men showing no concern for their interests.

Are men afraid of getting married? Good heavens, they have every reason to be!

[Cally]

I have to say, that thinking of all the marriages that I know, very few are ones where the woman is in anyway dominating the man. There are a few, but not the majority, and of course there are also those where the man dominates the woman in an ungodly way.

I see husbands lacking the masculinity of a single man many, many times. It's not especially the wife's fault, either, but a man throwing out his dreams, hobbies, higher goals because of his marriage, it happens a lot.

I fear that lots of men love their wives more than they love Jesus.

[Kindle]

Trying to do the right thing is what it's all about.  Christians are blessed with guidance here. There is as much guidance as there is a willingness and a patience to accept it.  For myself, I'd say it has been God who has been the patient one.  

Cally, I think there are valid concerns.  We have focused so much on providing equal regard for women in society that we have shoved men's own changing needs in the process.  
There are now father's groups to help fathers fight what is actually prejudicial thought within the courts.  
Divorce itself has become an easy solution, against the marriage necessity of gaining a greater level of maturity; for too many men and women alike.  There was a court show on television awhile back.. where the judge had a hard time making the ex-wife understand that her ex-husband need not provide financial support as she was making more money than him!
The wheels are churning toward the right direction.  But society responds slowly..

I don't like the idea of pre-nups either. I don't know much on the legalities.. but I found this...
"Generally speaking, all property acquired by either spouse before the marriage is considered non-marital property."  Is this another sign of the wheels churning?  

There are indeed gold diggers out there. Don't marry one!  There are women of low character out there, as well as men of low character. We must be discerning.  
I think the further away society (Church included) has moved from making women "second class citizens" we are becoming able to see that men too can be made "second class citizens."

Injustice is injustice.

[Cally]

There was a court show on television awhile back.. where the judge had a hard time making the ex-wife understand that her ex-husband need not provide financial support as she was making more money than him!

Yeah, this is the kind of thing I want to point out: I feel like the only way you can be against a pre-nup in light of this culture is if you want a woman to have the ability to just absolutely destroy a man at her own whim, and at that not even because of her needs. Granted, in this case the judge seems to have done the right and reasonable thing, but there's just so little concern for men as human beings whenever it comes down to a man versus a woman.

[Kindle]

There was a court show on television awhile back.. where the judge had a hard time making the ex-wife understand that her ex-husband need not provide financial support as she was making more money than him!

Yeah, this is the kind of thing I want to point out: I feel like the only way you can be against a pre-nup in light of this culture is if you want a woman to have the ability to just absolutely destroy a man at her own whim, and at that not even because of her needs. Granted, in this case the judge seems to have done the right and reasonable thing, but there's just so little concern for men as human beings whenever it comes down to a man versus a woman.

Exactly. Men are human beings too.  There has been a significant degree of vindication gone awry in our approach to achieve societal equality.  But people, and so society alike, are prone to make many mistakes.
I agree with Chosen.. entering into a marriage via pre-nups doesn't say much for the couple's faith and willingness toward that marriage.  ButI guess there are some situations, at least, where they can be seen as prudent.  And, women can stipulate  pre-nups as well as men.  I guess it depends on the couple.. but a marriage should only be entered into if we believe it is meant to last.

[Cally]

There was a court show on television awhile back.. where the judge had a hard time making the ex-wife understand that her ex-husband need not provide financial support as she was making more money than him!

Yeah, this is the kind of thing I want to point out: I feel like the only way you can be against a pre-nup in light of this culture is if you want a woman to have the ability to just absolutely destroy a man at her own whim, and at that not even because of her needs. Granted, in this case the judge seems to have done the right and reasonable thing, but there's just so little concern for men as human beings whenever it comes down to a man versus a woman.

Exactly. Men are human beings too.  There has been a significant degree of vindication gone awry in our approach to achieve societal equality.  But people, and so society alike, are prone to make many mistakes.
I agree with Chosen.. entering into a marriage via pre-nups doesn't say much for the couple's faith and willingness toward that marriage.  ButI guess there are some situations, at least, where they can be seen as prudent.  And, women can stipulate  pre-nups as well as men.  I guess it depends on the couple.. but a marriage should only be entered into if we believe it is meant to last.

Well some things are implicit. You probably won't say before marriage, "if you cheat on me, I'll divorce you." But if the spouse cheats and the other wants a divorce, the one that cheats might say "why is that reason to divorce."

It doesn't NEED to be said but it's IMPLIED. You would neither say, "I wouldn't divorce you for any reason" because that's not exactly true. It's a "what if" that exists before every marriage but it doesn't need to be expressed to show "lack of faith" or trust or what-have-you because it's universally implied. If the law or the community didn't acknowledge infidelity, you'd want a prenup for it.

The idea that you can't just say "I do," divorce for no reason, and take the kids and more money from a man than he could possibly make ought to be implied too, but it's not. Unromantic as these things are, they need to be brought up.

[chosenone]

A prenup will only come into effect if the marriage ends. Therefore, anyone who gets a prenup is already thinking about who gets what if the marriage ends. A terrible way to start a marriage. There is no way that I would ever get a prenup.
I think that maybe these men that you speak of need to make sure that they marry decent, godly ladies who have integrity and honesty and fairness. I married a man like that, and that is why I wont ever need a prenup. He treated his first wife with integrity, despite her affair and divorce, so I know that he would do the same to me.
My first husband acted appallingly, but I still treated him with decency and fairness in the divorce, and we shared everything. God has already blessed me so much since then.

Also where is God in this? I honestly believe that God will restore far more to my husband than the house that he let his wife have.Thats what He does, He restores to us all that we have lost through no fault of our own. If we treat others with integrity and fairness, He will reward us. If we try to keep as much as we can for ourselves, and want to stop our spouse having anything, what does that say about us? What does that say to God when a man is going to make sure that his wife has nothing if they divorce?  What will God think if he cares far more about his money and possessions than he does his wife? If he isnt prepared to say that promise "with all my worldly goods I thee endow," I wouldnt give that marriage much hope of lasting to be honest. We can see where his priority is.  

[wolflet7]

Unfortunately, pastors almost have to be crowd-pleasers so as not to have his/her church separated.  Is it fair to everybody?  Not at all.  Again, I'm not saying how some women treat their husbands is right.  I'm simply reminding you of our Christian duty as men.  

Men and women can point fingers at each other all day.  Wouldn't really solve anything though.  The solution?  Approach this in a Christian manner with the select few females.  Maybe if we did this, God will soften their hardened hearts.

[chosenone]

When you think about, it there are some grotty men and grotty women around who will always be selfish and treat their spouses badly no matter what. Thats why we need to be so careful about who we marry and make sure they are Gods choice for us.

[Cally]

A prenup will only come into effect if the marriage ends. Therefore, anyone who gets a prenup is already thinking about who gets what if the marriage ends. A terrible way to start a marriage. There is no way that I would ever get a prenup.
I think that maybe these men that you speak of need to make sure that they marry decent, godly ladies who have integrity and honesty and fairness. I married a man like that, and that is why I wont ever need a prenup. He treated his first wife with integrity, despite her affair and divorce, so I know that he would do the same to me.
My first husband acted appallingly, but I still treated him with decency and fairness in the divorce, and we shared everything. God has already blessed me so much since then.

Also where is God in this? I honestly believe that God will restore far more to my husband than the house that he let his wife have.Thats what He does, He restores to us all that we have lost through no fault of our own. If we treat others with integrity and fairness, He will reward us. If we try to keep as much as we can for ourselves, and want to stop our spouse having anything, what does that say about us? What does that say to God when a man is going to make sure that his wife has nothing if they divorce?  What will God think if he cares far more about his money and possessions than he does his wife? If he isnt prepared to say that promise "with all my worldly goods I thee endow," I wouldnt give that marriage much hope of lasting to be honest. We can see where his priority is.  

Since you put your personal life out there, allow me to work from that.

See if you can use your imagination, in hopes that you might be able to sympathize with a man who falls victim to an unfair system. Let's talk about your first husband who you divorced after his infidelity: what if, after you divorced him, he was given total custody of your children and you owed him more money than you could possibly pay.

Would you think that it's your own fault for failing to marry a godly man in the first place, as you suggest it's the fault of men who fail to marry "godly ladies"? Didn't you make the same mistake that many men pay for dearly?

[Cally]

Unfortunately, pastors almost have to be crowd-pleasers so as not to have his/her church separated.  Is it fair to everybody?  Not at all.  Again, I'm not saying how some women treat their husbands is right.  I'm simply reminding you of our Christian duty as men.  

Men and women can point fingers at each other all day.  Wouldn't really solve anything though.  The solution?  Approach this in a Christian manner with the select few females.  Maybe if we did this, God will soften their hardened hearts.

Wolflet, on rare occasion I can feel some old-school chivalry rising in me for a female. It's exceptionally rare as the female who I'm convinced has no intentions of exploiting it, which is otherwise a huge danger. In general I want to be fair with people and sometimes that means taking a woman's side.

But we have a huge, huge problem on our hands of the gentlemenly treatment resulting in exploitation so severe that men are no longer the "stronger vessels" in effect, as long as you don't have plans how to single-handedly fight off a culture that will protect destructive women.

Otherwise, can you get more specific with your ideas wolflet?

[Lively Stone]

What the word of God means concerning the stronger-weaker vessel is merely physicality.

[Kindle]

What the word of God means concerning the stronger-weaker vessel is merely physicality.

Lively Stone, yes.  And that is a good thought to bring into the discussion.
Me taking it further..  
Why is chivalry considered to be only a one way street?  
A good woman can extend those helpful things that are a particular strength in women (a generality)  just as a  good man can do from his own strengths.  Physicality is not a man's own strength, to be sure.  And, ya. No one wants to be exploited.

There is some pretty cool input here..
wolflet, ty.  IMO, you are speaking truths universal for men and women alike.  


On marriage and the implicit and explicit.. ah. that takes some adjustment. I remember hubby and I agreeing that housework was a 50-50 before we got married.  (We were both in the Army at the time.)    It didn't quite work out that way..
But adultery... ah that's a biggie.

[Cally]

What the word of God means concerning the stronger-weaker vessel is merely physicality.

Lively Stone, yes.  And that is a good thought to bring into the discussion.
Me taking it further.. 
Why is chivalry considered to be only a one way street?   
A good woman can extend those helpful things that are a particular strength in women (a generality)  just as a  good man can do from his own strengths.  Physicality is not a man's own strength, to be sure.  And, ya. No one wants to be exploited.

There is some pretty cool input here..
wolflet, ty.  IMO, you are speaking truths universal for men and women alike.   

Indeed, Proverbs 31 woman "extends her arms to the needy".

That defies male machismo tradition, doesn't it? It's okay for a man to get rescued by a female.

[Kindle]

What the word of God means concerning the stronger-weaker vessel is merely physicality.

Lively Stone, yes.  And that is a good thought to bring into the discussion.
Me taking it further..  
Why is chivalry considered to be only a one way street?  
A good woman can extend those helpful things that are a particular strength in women (a generality)  just as a  good man can do from his own strengths.  Physicality is not a man's own strength, to be sure.  And, ya. No one wants to be exploited.

There is some pretty cool input here..
wolflet, ty.  IMO, you are speaking truths universal for men and women alike.  

Indeed, Proverbs 31 woman "extends her arms to the needy".

That defies male machismo tradition, doesn't it? It's okay for a man to get rescued by a female.



Oops. I added to my previous post.  But yeah!  Husbands can be in need of comfort.. rescue even.  When they push themselves, sometimes blindly, to the limit. A wife can step in and say.. "Stop! You are hurting yourself." Was rushing here..  She might need to spend a good deal of time and energy helping her husband to see what he is doing and express the whys behind it for his own well being.  It is an example at least.

[wolflet7]

I feel as if I've been very specific in my previous posts.  Let me explain it again in clearly terms...

1. Love one another as Jesus has loved us.  No excuses.

2. Pointing fingers leads to nowhere.  Each gender is at fault for something or another from the bad examples of individuals from said genders, giving each gender respectively a bad rap.

3. In addition to number 2, accusing and acting similar to the bad examples from another gender will not show how the other gender how to act as you would wish them to do.

4. Stay away from the bad examples of the other gender.  Make smart relationship/marriage choices. 

5. Just because I'm defending the gender as a whole doesn't exactly mean I agree with the bad examples from that gender.

6. You can still keep your testosterone/manhood even if you have to deal with a domesticating/dominating female.  A real Man is found in his identity in Christ.

[Cally]

I feel as if I've been very specific in my previous posts.  Let me explain it again in clearly terms...

1. Love one another as Jesus has loved us.  No excuses.

2. Pointing fingers leads to nowhere.  Each gender is at fault for something or another from the bad examples of individuals from said genders, giving each gender respectively a bad rap.

3. In addition to number 2, accusing and acting similar to the bad examples from another gender will not show how the other gender how to act as you would wish them to do.

4. Stay away from the bad examples of the other gender.  Make smart relationship/marriage choices. 

5. Just because I'm defending the gender as a whole doesn't exactly mean I agree with the bad examples from that gender.

6. You can still keep your testosterone/manhood even if you have to deal with a domesticating/dominating female.  A real Man is found in his identity in Christ.

Okay wolflet. To the point you've explained yourself, I agree.

[ObeyTheGospel]

ObeyTheGospel, just to clarify, I NEVER said men shouldn't be respected.  To put it simply...

It is OUR Christian duty to love one another.  Jesus didn't say, "Love one another, unless they are trying to domesticate/dominant you".  If by chance you have read that in the Bible, I would love to see which version you read.  Manning up is following Jesus and trusting that He will provide a way for all your problems, this one included. 

Do I think some men need to be respected more? Of course.  But saying that it isn't right to respect another gender because you feel as if they aren't respecting your gender from what you saw is childish.  If Jesus had that mindset, he would have struck the Pharisees down and not died on the cross for our sins.  Would you want that to happen?  An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.  Repaying wrong for wrong leads to nowhere and can worsen the situation. 

Again, if we judged a whole gender by the nature of a select few, then don't you think that gender would judge us in the same manner?  I'm not saying that's right because it is not, but it probably would happen, as you are doing with the female gender right now.  So if females judged the whole male population by a select few of us "men", they could say that we are selfish, cheating perverts.  That wouldn't be right, would it?

If you don't like the way a female is treating a male, don't have any contact with her at all.  It's that simple.  Find some of the better, more respectful females.  I can guarantee you that they are out there. 

To recap, in a sense I am not disagreeing with you and Cally in the fact that some women do domesticate/dominant some males.  However, we must love one another, as Jesus said.  Absolutely NO excuses or contradictory footnotes with that verse.  What good will it do to point fingers and make accusations and judgments?  Doing so will lead to nowhere and we would be abandoning OUR Christian duty in doing such.

ObeyTheGospel, I feel as if this is deeper than the pointless joke the speaker made in your previous topic.  Is there a problem you have had to deal with pertaining to this topic?  If so, I would gladly pray for you. 

"But saying that it isn't right to respect another gender because you feel as if they aren't respecting your gender from what you saw is childish."

Could you please tell me when I said this? I never said such a thing. You're jumping to conclusions brother. I was responding to what you said when you said that women need to be respected no matter what. As Christians we are to love and forgive everyone, but nowhere does the Bible say we need to respect people. For example, I could forgive a rapist, but I would never respect a rapist, unless he repented. I could forgive women who have abortions, but I couldn't respect a women who supported abortion. I could forgive an adulterer, but I could never respect an adulterer, unless they repented.

The word respect in the Oxford Dictionary means, "A feeling of admiration for someone because of their qualities or achievements."

Just because we are to love and forgive people doesn't mean we have to respect them. God loves everyone, but that doesn't mean He respects everyone. There is a difference. But that's beside the point. Why do you have the mentality that women should be respected no matter what? I would never say that men need to be respected no matter what, so why do you say this about women?

In recent decades, the West has become more and more intoxicated with feminism and sexism towards men. We constantly teach that women need to be respected, but not vice versa. I can speak to young, attractive women today, and all I have to do is disagree with them or say the wrong thing and they say things like, "**** off, or **** you!"

Believe me, I've had many young women spew foul, disgusting language at me for very little reason. They will talk to men as though they are scum. It is my opinion that this stems from the double standard of, "You must respect women no matter what" but not vice versa. This double standard has mesmerized women into thinking that they are allowed to disrespect men but men still have to respect them.

In my opinion, I believe both men and women should be respected, unless they are practicing evil. Remember, love and respect are not the same thing. I just think that you are wrong to say that women need to be respected no matter what. If you're going to say such a thing, you should at least say the same thing about men. Other than that I still love you as my brother in Christ.

[ObeyTheGospel]

I have to say, that thinking of all the marriages that I know, very few are ones where the woman is in anyway dominating the man. There are a few, but not the majority, and of course there are also those where the man dominates the woman in an ungodly way.

How do you know this? Are you there with them each day? Or do you just take the wife's word for it? I ask because women are well known for complaining about their husbands, just so they can have a good nag or gossip. I don't mean this offensive, but it's true.

[Cally]

I have to say, that thinking of all the marriages that I know, very few are ones where the woman is in anyway dominating the man. There are a few, but not the majority, and of course there are also those where the man dominates the woman in an ungodly way.

How do you know this? Are you there with them each day? Or do you just take the wife's word for it? I ask because women are well known for complaining about their husbands, just so they can have a good nag or gossip. I don't mean this offensive, but it's true.

Yeah, there is that to generally consider. Us guys are only starting to learn how to complain in similar fashion (you know, as if we have feelings) and I think a lot of traditional-type men are gonna suck it up and "be a man" which is ultimately ironic.

[wolflet7]

I see your views on the difference between respect and love.  And I agree with it.  Thanks for clarifying this for me.  However, one of the main things us men need to do is to show these bad examples of females how to act by acting in a manner in which we would like to be acted upon.  In other words, we need them to play monkey see monkey do.  Maybe this will show the bad examples of females how to grow up and see beyond their stuck up ways, to put it nicely 

[Thankfulldad]

I see your views on the difference between respect and love.  And I agree with it.  Thanks for clarifying this for me.  However, one of the main things us men need to do is to show these bad examples of females how to act by acting in a manner in which we would like to be acted upon.  In other words, we need them to play monkey see monkey do.  Maybe this will show the bad examples of females how to grow up and see beyond their stuck up ways, to put it nicely 

Love as Christ loved us then?  Longsuffering...patience...keeping no record of wrong...

We are called to do this...but, sadly...we give into the flesh, which will quench the Spirit...

However...if we give ourself up (the flesh)...the Spirit will heal all things.

[wolflet7]

Exactly my point.  Thank you for putting it in a clearer post

[Thankfulldad]

Exactly my point.  Thank you for putting it in a clearer post

You are welcome brother...

When we put God first in relationship; other relationships will result in peace.  Trusting God first, His love, His faith, His hope...we find ourself living out a calm sanity; as God grips our heart (intimacy with Him)...He cleans out the junk that causes strife.  We see others perfect in Christ, there will be no will to argue or complain...no will to be right, rather our will would be in agreement with God...love will follow, which heals and brings peace.

We should have no rights; only God's goodness...which results in humility, mercy, grace, peace and the big one...drum roll please...............................LOVE

[ObeyTheGospel]

What we need is for men to take leadership. I stand by what I say and make no apologies. The problem is that women have been mentally programmed to rebel against a man's authority. The feminists have made us believe that for thousands of years the majority of women have suffered at the hands of men and have been severely oppressed. Although many women have indeed suffered in the past from men, the feminists have made it out to be much worse than it actually was. Therefore, women have been made to fear and despise a man's leadership and authority because women naturally think that most men will abuse their power. In some cases this is true, but not to the extent that the feminists would have us believe.

Many women will look at men today and say, "Look how men are today. They are immature, lack responsibility, and use women for sex. How can we respect a man's leadership?"

I admit that I, too, am ashamed at the actions of many men today, especially young men. But let us dig below the surface and see why men have become shadows of their former selves:

I don't know about America, but in England where I'm from, women can have a baby and get a free house with all her bills paid for her. The mother and child don't need to be dependent on the father. In fact, many women in the UK are happy being single mums. They are well looked after by the government. This causes a lot of fathers to not take responsibility because the mother and child can rely on the government to financially support them. I'm not saying fathers should use this as an excuse not to take responsibility, but it certainly doesn't encourage them. In the past, a father had no choice but to take responsibility, unless he wanted his wife and child to starve to death or end up on the streets. Fathers are no longer motivated to take responsibility because the mother and child can rely on the government.

Another problem is that the legal system is very unfair to fathers. Again, a mother can rely on the government to support her. They don't need to rely on the father. The grim result has been millions of children growing up without a proper father figure. I've known of men to go through mental anguish because they hardly get to see their kids. And what makes me angry is this: Who are these people (those involved in politics) to interfere with the laws of nature? How dare they presume to think that they have the moral right to tell a father he can only see his child once a week or once a month. How dare they?

And then we have the good old media. Just look at all the TV shows that are allowed to make jokes about men, belittle them, slander them, make them out to be perverts, etc. Society knows that men are weak when it comes to sex, but yet society near-enough rams pornography down men's throats. Then society has the audacity to label men as weak perverts who are only interested in sex. I can honesty tell you as a man that before I started watching porn, before I was a Christian, I looked at women in a totally different light. It was pornography that poisoned my mind and made me look at women as sex objects. Until I was hooked on pornography, I looked at women differently.

My point is that society has made men shadows of their former selves. Society has caused men to lose much of their roles and responsibilities. I'm sure you're well aware of the reaction of people today when you quote verses from Paul where he says wives are to submit to and obey their husbands. Even Christians in the church often get offended at this. But let me tell you the truth of the whole matter:

If we are to get men to stand up and fulfill their duty as a good husband and father, we need to give them encouragement, not bring them down. It is ridiculous to take away a father's rights, take away a man's roles and responsibilities, think it's okay to slander and belittle men, and then tell them that they need to man up and take responsibility. Society needs to encourage men and give them back the respect of leadership. Of course, we have gone beyond any hope of that ever happening. But my point is that men need the respect to fulfill their roles, according to the laws of nature that God has given us, not according to the laws of feminists and politicians.

As a man I can tell you that a woman who is sweet, caring, and respectful is like a rose without a thorn. But when a woman is bossy, likes to gossip a lot, belittles her husband, despises his leadership, etc, these are the women that drain men. The way I feel is that the more a woman submits to me, the more it motivates me to love, honor, and protect her. Deep down, I believe that most men love the responsibility of looking after a sweet, submission woman. It's a shame that some men have abused this, but every good man will be honored to love and protect a submissive wife. However, when a wife wants to take on the roles of a husband, it is very off-putting. It goes against the laws of nature.

God bless